Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    It sounds, off the top of my head, like you are doing something to give
    people the impression that you *want* to be the one to take the
    initiative.  Your mother's surprise at your interest in her activities,
    for instance, sounds like it hadn't really occured to her that you
    would *want* to be told of gatherings of the family, etc.
    
    I had a friend once that I liked a lot, but I always thought that she
    would think I was pushing if I called her.  Something in her manner
    suggested that she wanted to call when *she* wanted to call, and she
    felt put upon if I called her.  So I never called her, never initiated
    contact, because I didn't think she wanted me to.  Later, I found out
    that she always wondered why I didn't call her! 
    
    Also, look at your manner of interacting.  Sometimes it takes some work
    to take 50% of the coversation.  I know you feel like you should be
    *given* your 50%, but try *taking* it and see what happens.  I talk a
    lot, as anyone who knows me will tell you.  In general, I will talk
    constantly until I am interrupted.  When interupted (nicely) however,
    I'll immediately shut up and listen to the other person for as long as
    they want to talk.  It isn't that I don't want to listen to them - it
    is often just that they are shy, and slow to take up the slack in a
    conversation - I don't like there to be slack, so I'll take it up. 
    Rather than waiting for your friends to say "So tell me about your
    life...", try responding to their stories saying things like "You know,
    that's very interesting, it reminds me of something that happened to me
    last week..."
    
    Also talk to your friends!  They may not have *any* idea that you feel
    like you are doing all the giving.  They may feel it is 50-50 - if you
    share your perception of the situation with them, perhaps they will
    make extra effort.  At very least, try things like when hanging up the
    telephone or saying goodbye after meeting, say something like "Why
    don't you give me a ring so we can get together again?"  That way you
    have communicated that you are comfortable with them contacting you.
    
    D!

    I'm going through something very similar.  I do a lot of
    people-gathering, and although I enjoy it, it hurts like hell sometimes
    that I feel as though I get few invitations. I just get to listen to
    the things my friends do, and the parties they go to.
    
    I've been getting pro-active though. I've started telling people that
    I'd like to be invited along to things. And I've gotten very positive
    responses.
    
    I can talk like there's no tomorrow, so I usually don't have a big
    problem having my turmoils heard, but sometimes when they overwhelm me,
    I isolate myself from my friends, and they don't come rushing over to
    ask me what's wrong. It hurts a little. But I always need to remember
    that life deals a challenge to each of us, and its hard enough to meet
    your own needs without reaching out to attend to those of your friends.
    Most people aren't neglecting me on purpose, and if I asked them, I'm
    sure that my hurt would surprise them.
    
    I hear two problems. So, in summary two proactive suggestions. When you
    need an ear, call someone and immediately ask: can you listen to me, I
    need to share what's going on in my life?
    
    Second: Let your friends and relatives know that you'd like to join
    their fun - "Can you let me know when the folks are getting together?
    I'd really like to join you!"
    
    Be sincere, don't think of the times you haven't been invited or
    listened to, put them behind you and start with today.

    Anon, I've had similar problems in my life, but I'll let other
    people answer first. One thing I came up with was that some
    people are gardeners of freindships and others are gardens.
    
    The few times I found some one who as as active a gardener as I am
    two things happened...
    
    1. one we bacame really good friends and have kept up the friend-
    ship at variouis degrees of intensity over a long time.
    
    2. I got feeing trapped by the intensity of the other person or
    got burned out by helping and had to cool the relationship...
    (once or twice or more *I* burned out the friendship.)
    
    So I'd like to hear other people's answers.
    
    Bonnie
    
    
    p.s.  I also have the similar problem with my family, and it is
    to a degree related to my chosing a different life style, and
    to live away from them.

    
    Anon - I've been in similar situations.
    
    For me, it came down to some hard thinking about...
    
    1) What expectations I had of my friends
    2) What *I* wanted from the relationship
    3) How to clearly express my needs to the person concerned
    
    We can't be responsible for the actions of others, right?
    We *can* choose how we react to their actions, and we can choose
    how we express ourselves to them.
    
    And some people you just have to let go.
    If you have expressed honestly how you feel, and they don't respond
    to your comments, then maybe there's not a base for a true frienship
    there.
    
    I now have Friends and friends. The Friends are few in number, but
    valuable to me beyond measure. I have lots of friends - they are
    precious, but they come and go and that's fine too.
    
    'gail

    Re .3 Bonnie...
    
    I love your response.  It seems so appropriate to me, it says so much.
    

    
    
    I have always thought that you are lucky if you have ONE really good
    friend in your life and if you are lucky enough to have two, WOW.  
    I believe most others are acquaintenances, and if you treat "them" or
    situations as such, you are never disappointed.
    
    
    Jackie
     
    

    
    re. 6
    
    I agree, that's why I try to be my own best friend!
    
    bonnie

    Anon - 
    
    I think bonnie says it well; SOme people are gerdeners of friendships
    and others are gardens.
    
    My spouse and I have had many conversations about this.  He is truly a
    gardener of friendships;  he goes out of his way to call people, to do
    the little remembrance things, to arrange get-togethers.  I'm not as
    much, but I've seen the relationships that results from such careful
    tending, and I'm modifying my style.  I envy you if the proclivity is
    natural!.
    
    on the other hand, every gardener knows that pruning and weeding are
    necessary if the garden is to grow well.  Perhaps my contribution to our
    partnership is that I can prune.   As D! said, you have a
    responsibility to *take* your 50%, to *tell* people you want to be
    invited, to not ask them to guess. I've met very few mindreaders.  And
    the good news is that *next* time, you may not have to ask.  In my
    personal experiencce, even those with Garden (vs gardener) tendencies,
    will take a more active role if youlet them know it is important to you. 
    
    But about pruning... My spouse and I have
    found there are acquaintances who will *never* return calls, will *never* 
    set up get-togethers.  You have to ask yourself, if, by continuing to pour
    energy into these people, if you're neglecting the rest of your garden.
    
    People like you are nice to have around. 
    
    Jamd    
    
                 

I don't see the world as containing different types of people, but
rather, different kinds of relationships. There are some people who
_always_ initiate contact with me, and others whom I always call or
write to first. With some friends, it feels more even. For a while,
I felt sad about the friends who never contact me. But then I realized
that I care a lot about the people I never call and am always grateful
when they do. And then I realized that in general, I reach out about
50% of the time, so I felt a lot better and stopped worrying about it.


Liz

General disclaimer: This note describes my experience and is not meant
to imply how others should react to similar situations.

    There are times when I've felt as .0 feels, when I've noticed that I
    always seem to be the one to contact certain friends.  I've decided
    that in these cases the only thing I can do is evaluate how important
    it is for me to try to keep the friendship.  If I decide it's worth my
    while even though I seem to always initiate things then I try not to
    feel bad about it.  In other words, it's my choice to contact these
    people even if they don't ever get in touch with me.  So, if it's my
    choice, why resent it?  If I decide that the friendship isn't worth
    always being the initiator then I just say the heck with them and
    forget they exist! :-)  Sometimes I have just naturally lost interest
    in people who didn't bother to ever call me.  
    
    I also try to remind myself that some people are simply busier in their
    personal lives than I might be, with volunteer work, 2nd jobs, small
    children, whatever, and that some people may not put as high a priority
    on getting together with friends as I do.
    
    I guess, to be honest, I tend to gradually forget about the people who
    don't at least make some effort in getting in touch with me from time
    to time.  
    
    Lorna
    

The following reply is from another noter who wishes to remain
anonymous...

Bonnie J

=wn= comod

================================================================================
	Wow, does this sound familiar!  I could have written the
	base note myself.

	At one point it bothered me so much I *stopped* calling to 
	see what would happen.  It took a while, but some folks did 
	call back, concerned that something had happened because they 
	hadn't heard from me for so long.  Other folks never called, 
	and this may sound harsh, but I figured if they didn't care 
	enough to make one phone call then I'd rather not be involved.

	For those that did call back, I think they were finally ready
	to "do their part" and listen.  I explained that I was afraid 
	I was being too pushy since I had been doing all the prompting, 
	and I was feeling bad because of it (all true).  They all were 
	truly surprised, it didn't occur to them to be the "gardener"
	once in a while too.  

	One thing that was pointed out to me was also mentioned in some
	of the other replies.  I was giving off a lot of "don't worry,
	I'll take care of it" vibes.  So I had to do some changing as
	well - and it can be hard giving up that "control" even when
	you want to.  Now, I still do most of the contacting, but my
	friends seem to be putting more effort into initiating things
	too, which thrills me to no end.

	The odd part of this is that it's *family* that never called
	back.  They don't seem to realize that the phone lines work in
	both directions!   Since I grew up in a dysfunctional home, I
	guess I shouldn't be surprised.  Maybe someday it will all come
	back together, but in the meantime, I've cultivated a couple
	of true friends who are willing to work on cultivating together.

	Without intending to be callous, I guess the most important thing 
	to remember is that if you want other people to change, you have 
	to be willing to change a little yourself.  I'll admit it was
	hard for me to swallow at first, but it can work.  Also, you don't
	have to work through this alone - you have us here in the
	conference as a sounding board, but don't be afraid to talk
	to a counselor too!

	"MeToo"

    re:.0
    
    If you act like a doormat, you'll get treated like a doormat.  The
    opposite is also true... if you're always being treated like a
    doormat it's because you're letting it happen.
    
                                        L.J.

    
    Why is is you? Because you are making it that way.  It's up to you and
    you only to change things if you are unhappy with them you are the one
    who allowed these situations to come about.  You can't make the other 
    people/person change behavior.
    
    Explore why your relationships are like this, and examine your behavior 
    and the other person's behavior.   And be honest with yourself, sometimes 
    people purposely get into a relationship that is not good.  (ex. my 
    father married my mother, not for love or even like, but because she 
    dominates him just like his father did.)  This goes for friend, companions,
    lovers, parents, siblings, etc.  Maybe you present yourself in a way
    that make these people react the way they do. If you act in a different
    way, maybe they will react differently to you. (If you act in a way
    that shows isolation, shyness, indifference, then a person may think
    you are a loner, does not want to get involved, etc., when you may just
    be waiting for them to say something, or just don't want to talk about
    your problems to them, so as not to "trouble" them.) You must be 
    honest with them, and yourself.
    
    If they do not want to remain a friend when you are really being
    yourself, then they weren't with you for friendship in the first place.
    
    A healthy relationship is one in which the people spend time with
    each other because the enjoy and like each other's company, not from 
    parental, or sibling obligation, not from "need" instead of "want", not
    from wanting to dominate or be dominated by someone, not from one
    person being dependent on the other...
    
    C. (-: