Conference turris::womannotes-v3

          Last Friday evening I went target shooting at a gun club.  I was
          socializing in the upstairs area (the range is downstairs) with 5
          other women and 1 man.  The man had on one of those tee-shirts
          entitled, "Why a truck is better than a woman" with many reasons
          listed on the shirt.

          I said (with a 1/2 smile) "Nice shirt."

          He sheepishly gave me a 1/2 smile back.

          I said, "How would you like to hold the targets for us at the end
          of the range?"  (full smile - I couldn't help it!!)

          He didn't say anything.

          I said, "We are all armed, ya know."  [referring to the other
          woman I was sitting with]

          He still didn't say anything.
          (motto:  An armed society is a polite society. !!)

          His wife later told me she didn't think he would wear that shirt
          again.  I think he got the message!   ;-) ;-) ;-)

About two years ago, one of my co-workers, who had been a varsity swimmer,
was talking about shaving and swimming, and kept referring to "chicks."

"Oh," said I innocently :-), "I didn't know that poultry were allowed 
in swim meets."

He looked confused as some of the others cracked up.

I never heard him refer to women as chicks again, so he either got it
later, or had it explained to him.

Bobbi "too bad sexism doesn't have a deadline" Fox

    Once I was having a drink with my sister, and a couple of guys were
    hassling us bigtime.  One of them was being particularly obnoxious and 
    rude.  I kept glancing at the bartender, hoping he would say or do 
    something, but he chose to ignore the situation.  I could not ignore
    this guy any longer when he said something like "Oh I get it, you're
    here looking for a LAWYER or DOCTOR to pick up.  Well you ain't gonna
    find SH*T here."  He repeated that statement a couple of times and 
    I calmly turned to him and said.  "Well, I'm not particularly looking
    for sh*t but if I were, I could always talk to you."  My sister choked
    on her drink, and his buddy dragged him out by the collar,thank God.
    
    Kim

    my best one was a couple years ago:
    
    standing in the hall, talking with some of the lab folks, one of the
    managers tells me something i did really took balls.
    
    i grabbed my crotch with both hands, bent to look, and said, "oh, no!"
    
    he blushed purple...

    Thanks to all of you womannoters!!! :*) Before I found this conference,
    I used to keep my mouth shut, even when I REALLY didn't want to,(I
    can't believe why, but...) because I didn't want people to think I'm 
    a bitch. I AM A NICE PERSON (thank you very much ;*) and I didn't
    realize until recently, that one could dispute sexist remarks in a
    polite way, while educating the offender at the same time.
    
    Last night Dave (my SO) & I went to our local AMA club to get info
    on how to join, get a license, some instruction, & all of the other
    prerequsites involved with flying model airplanes. 
    
    The members we met were so helpful & nice. They are really enthused
    when a new member joins, and they make it a point to make everyone feel
    very welcome. That's why I was so nice to this guy. He comes walking up
    to us while we were speaking to an instructer & sez, "Are *YOU* going
    to learn too?!" I knew instantly that he meant "But you're a girl!",
    so I just said, "Yes, once we get rolling on all of the forms & we make
    a couple of modifications to MY plane, I'm going to learn!" I didn't
    want to be rude yet, I just met these people & I want *IN*. SO THEN,
    the guy sez, "We used to have another girl who flew here, but I think
    she gave it up, too." I wanted to ask if that comment meant that he
    thought I'd "give it up", like the "other girl"! I didn't know quite
    what he meant, but he was such a moron, I didn't really care what he
    meant, I just sed, "You mean there was another WOMAN, right?!" I smiled
    when I said it, but he didn't. he replied, "Well, another FEMALE
    PERSON" I said, "what ever, right?" in a sarcastic tone of voice & then 
    the instructer interrupted to tell us about a 65 year old woman who
    comes down to fly all of the time.
    
    Later, Dave said to me, "Ya know, that guy thinks you're a real bitch!"
    I asked Dave, "Does it really matter what he thinks? Maybe I AM A
    BITCH!"
    
    Bonnie Lou

    This situstion goes back a few years but it is relavant.  Back during
    the high roller days of Digital we used to have events called Woods
    meetings.  These were meeting where entire groups os managers went to a
    resort to do their yearly planning or reorganizations or whatever .  We
    had this estremely hansome guy in the group who thought that he was
    gods gift to women, well one night at the dinner meal this guy
    whispered into a young womans ear, "Can I get into your panties"?
    
    "To which she replied loudly, "ONE A__HOLE IN MY PANTS IS QUITE ENOUGH
    AND I CERTAINLY DON'T NEED ANOTHER".  The loverboy had to le<ve the
    meeting due to the harrassment his peers gave him after his faux pas.
    
    He privately apologized and they are still good friends..
    

    At the Sheraton Commander in Cambridge they have a really pleasant
    champagne brunch.  
    My Mom, Husband, and I went there for brunch. 
    The waiters there INSIST on handing the bill folder to my husband.
    
    The last time we went, when the waiter tried to hand him the
    check, my husband just looked up plaintively and whined :
    
    "But I'm the only one here without a job!"
    
    It forced the waiter to back up for a second.
    Maybe he will think the next time,
    but i doubt it.
    
    Cindi

	The other night, Kelly, Robin, Elaine and I were at a nice,
	romantically darkened restaurant at the beach, for dinner.
	Knowing it was somewhere in the vicinity, we asked our 
	waiter, a most flirtatious blonde man, where a particular 
	lesbian bar was located.  He said, "But that's a women's
	bar."  At which point we all looked at each other, looked
	at him, and in unison said, "Right, and we're women!"

	Carla

	A friend of mine has started answering (not necessarily sexist) 
statements of questionable merit with "Yeah, so what's your point?"


						--D

    Also-
    
    "So what are you trying to say?"
    
    Cindi

    I used to go to college in NYC.  I lived off campus (face it, there
    wasn't much of a campus, anyway) and usually walked a lot to save
    subway fare.  I frequently had to walk past a construction site. After
    weeks of harassment and embarrassment, I finally couldn't take it any
    longer. One guy yelled out exactly how he'd like to stuff his salami
    into my mouth and much I'd love it.  I stopped dead, looked at him a
    long time, starring, and yelled back: "I hope someone says that to your
    daughter."

    He almost fell off the scaffold.

    I walked past there the rest of the semester and never heard another
    word.
    
      Margaret 

    I love the staring response, too.  But I embellish it.  They get the
    slow up and down, with stops at places you need more time to consider.
    And draw it out!  If they haven't shrunk away in embarassment, I follow 
    that with a smirk or a derisive laugh, depending on the situation.  The 
    idea is to communicate that you're rejecting *them* personally and not the 
    request.  
    
    I do the same with obscene callers, too.  I tell them it sounds
    *real* good but unfortunately they just seem like too much of a jerk to be
    considered in the scenario or that I'd already had them and they were
    too small or something similar.
    
    They expect the objects of their desires to blush, stammer and slink away. 
    That's the desired effect.  When a woman does so, he wins at the, "Me big 
    strong hormonal male who wants to display for his buddies at your expense 
    and you're going to allow it because I'm the man", game.  Just don't 
    *ever* get angry or attempt to one-up him in the suggestion department, 
    like, "Oh yeah?  Well why don't you go xyz".  You'll lose.  You gotta catch 
    him off-guard by appearing to treat him and his request with the same 
    respect you would give someone asking for directions. Then, just as 
    innocently, you insinuate that you're not against the request per se,
    (important nit!), but that he personally just doesn't cut it in your book. 
    
    Rejection is bad enough to them but being rejected by a woman whom they
    believe "would", is really insulting.  And that's *my* goal with such
    jerks.
    
    Sandy Ciccolini
    

	Sandy, you have just provided me with a whole new approach.

	Thank you!

	Carla

    I keep a cartoon in my office, in a discreet place, natch.

    It shows a man and woman, the man is "flashing" the woman.

    She is carrying a briefcase and walking nonchalantly, she says, 

    "No thanks, I'm trying to quit."
    
    
    
    There were the usual flasher episodes in the grad stacks at school.
    Reported responses were:
    
    "Deviant sexuality is on the second florr"
    
    "I've seen better."
    
    "I don't have my glasses on."
    
    "I don't need a pencil, thank you anyway."
    
    I never got flashed there, so disappointing. I'd thought about an
    appropriate riposte and never got to use it.

    The situation may be apocryphal, but it has been immortalized in
    a TV show, and the line is soooo good, that I must include it:
    
    Harlan Ellison walked up to a statuesque blonde, and asked, "What
    do you say to a little f--?"
    
    The woman looked slowly down at him, and replied, "`Go away,
    little f--.'"
    
    						Ann B.

Last summer, my mother had to have cancer surgery (again).  She was terrified
about this - and we were all very worried about her, especially since the
cancer had recurred - so I went down to NJ to be with her and waited with my 
father in the waiting area while she was in the operating room.

About an hour after we'd expected her to be out of surgery, the surgeon
came out and called us over.  He'd met my father before, but looked puzzled
at my presence, so my father introduced me.

   "Do you live around here?" the surgeon asked.

   "No," I replied, "I live in New Hampshire".

    "What are you doing in New Hampshire?", he asked, "Making babies?"

I was shocked.  Since I wasn't sure if he was done operating on my mother or
not, I decided it would be better to tell him the truth, instead of what I
desperately wanted to say:

    "No, I'm a malpractice attorney."

Then there's the one about the flasher and the witty woman.

This flasher goes about to the a woman, opens his raincoat, and says,
"Hey baby, what do you think about this?"

And she replies, "Looks like a penis, only smaller."

The flasher covered up and sulks away.

    
    they're all pretty old actually ..

    Yeah, and you would think that men would eventually realize they're
    probably the 85th guy to use whatever line/behavior their using.
    But they get a kick out of themselves, every time.
    
    Sandy

    
    we're easily amused,,,

    .19
    
    I'd sure like to give 'em a kick out of it...   ;-)

    Actually, those flashers were comedy writers fishing for new lines.
    
    :-)

    I think "So, what's your point?" would be a good riposte to
    a flasher.  
    
    ;-)
    
    Richard

I was in the hardware store buying garden tools and fertilizer.
I found the two tools I needed and then selected a 50-lb sack of
fertilizer and slung it over my shoulder. As I was walking towards
the cash register, one of the store workers came rushing up to
me and said "Can I help you carry anything?" and I said "Sure!"
and pushed the tools into his hands. We repeated the whole scene
as he helped me out to my car <tee hee!>


Liz

(And no, I wasn't being stupid. Had I wanted to purchase something
that was too heavy for me to carry, I would have gladly asked someone
else to lift it for me.)

    [apropos of a recent news event]
    
    Not especially witty or humourous, but:
    
    A woman co-worker remarked that I really should wear eyeliner more
    frequently as it made me look 'more professional.'
    
    I asked, 'Professional what?'
    
    
    A male co-worker made the comment that I 'look so much prettier when I
    wear make-up' and asked why I didn't do it more often.
    
    From the heart I replied, 'Tell you what.  Here's my number at home. 
    Some morning when you find yourself putting on that fabulous shirt that
    makes your eyes that Gulfstream Aqua I like so much give me a call.  I
    promise to wear make-up that day. Fair's fair...you give me the
    eye-candy I crave, it's only fitting I do the same for you.'
    
    He never called in the two years we worked together ... but he did wear
    the shirt once or twice.
    
    
    [I hasten to add that when the urged to commit temporary cosmetic
    'surgery' upon myself strikes, I enter into it with abandon and gleeful
    enthusiasm ... however, this is fairly infrequent and almost never at
    7 a.m.]
    
      Annie

    When I was in the USAF, there was a civilian worker in my office who
    was very impolite, especially to women.  I don't, to his day, know what
    his problem was.  I guess he was just a jerk.  
    
    Anyway, one Monday morning, he came in with a beard started.  My
    secretary (who was a really nice person) said "Irving, are you growing
    a beard?".  He looked at her in his usual arrogance and snorted, "No,
    I'm having a sex change!".   In the most innocent voice I could muster
    I said "Oh really?  From what to what?".  I don't think my secretary
    ever recovered from laughing about that.  But if looks could kill, I'd
    be one dead fool.
    
    Ron

    Re .25: The eyeliner comment cracked me up. Just when did "painting
    one's face" switch from being an indicator of loose morals ["Gee, only
    prostitutes and *actors* wear makeup!" ;-)] to being an essential part
    of good grooming? I'll admit to getting the occasional kick out of
    using makeup, but for me it's purely another aspect of a costume (be it
    the costume of an elderly nursemaid or the costume of a "20th century
    American woman dressing up for a fancy occasion"). Nothing could be
    farther from my image of professionalism than smearing colored pigments
    and ground-up fish scales on one's skin - well, unless one is a tribal
    shaman, perhaps.
    
    For whatever reason, I've found that it's nearly always women who
    suggest, gently or otherwise, that I ought to wear makeup; if men
    comment on it at all, it's either that they're glad I _don't_ wear it
    (bless 'em!), or "you really look fabulous with that makeup on", which
    I try to take as a compliment despite its implications that (a) I've
    been clumsy enough that it's obvious I'm wearing the stuff, and (b)
    that I don't look as fabulous without it. 
    
    [Apologia: This is all purely my opinion. I, personally, find makeup to
    be a mostly-unpleasant, fun-on-rare-occasions, always-frivolous kind of
    thing. I mean no offense to those who like it. (On the other hand,
    those who find it Really Important, or, worse, Morally Right, may
    consider themselves insulted.)]
    
    -b (the pale-faced, the uneven-complexioned, the skimpy-lashed)

    Poor Nita.
    
    					Ann B.

    Well, Nita was on assignment. 
    
    Poor Consuela. ;-)
    
    -b
    
    p.s. For those who don't know what we're talking about, I did get to
    practice my makeup skills on a recent mystery/vacation. The high point
    wasn't making _myself_ up, but lending my scarlet lipstick to the 6'8"
    fellow who played another character's wife. (On him it looked good!)
    
    But I still think makeup's a conspiracy by the patriarchy to keep us 
    busy and to use up our spending money and to prevent anybody from
    taking us seriously. I mean, think of men who wear makeup on the job
    and who comes to mind? Ronald Reagan and Ronald McDonald...
    
    [CHEAP SHOT! CHEAP SHOT!]

    
    Well, I guess you could say that you're wearing that kind that
    
    "looks natural."  
                      
    Justine

    That's GREAT Justine!! :*)
    
    I feeel the same way the other ladies in the past couple of notes do. 
    If I have time & *I* feel like itt, I'll wear make-up. It isn't the
    "norm" for me though. I too take it as a compliment when someone says,
    "You look nice today, is something different? " or "Hey, you look good
    in make up." (even though I ALREADY knew that!)
    
    I'm not flattered though when someone says, "Oh, you look so much
    better w/ make up... (or w/ your hair like that) Why don't you wear
    it (like that) all the time? It's much nicer." Some people JUST DON'T
    know how to give a compliment! (I hate to say this, but...) It's almost
    ALWAYS a man that says it, too! I just say, "I happen to LOVE ME the
    way I am, and if you don't, then you OBVIOUSLY have some problem! (not 
    full of myself am I? ;*)) AND!!! What makes you think that *I* am here
    to LOOK GOOD for YOU!?! You get up at 5:30 in the AM, and see how much
    you like putting goop on your face & nylons on!!"
    
    Bonnie Lou

    G'day,
    
     re _.a_lot - the couple joining the AMA...
    
    Now I wasn't there, obviously, to hear the tone, but maybe was it
    just possible that in asking if she was going to join, too, was said
    that way because
    1) few females join, and it was a real pleasure to see one join
    2) the other female left, and that was a disappointment....
    
    Some folk do get sort of tongue-tied when unfamiliar (unknown) females
    are about.
    
    Not offering a defence, but just a thought.......
    
    
    Re the flasher....
    
    In today's day and age
    
    "Mmmmm I had one once, but the wheels fell off."
    or
    "Mmmmm I had one once, but it was bigger than that...."
    
    
    And sometimes a fella might wish to say simply "You look very nice" - a
    genuine compliment, but get a bit shy at such an open statement, so
    inadvertently put foot in mouth and add "when you wear makeup" to
    lessen the openness they have exhibited...
    
    
    
    derek

        re .32,
        
>>     inadvertently put foot in mouth and add "when you wear makeup" to
        
        Or the ever popular, "You look really nice ... today." :-)
        
        Dan

    Dan,
    
    try, "you look *especially* nice today :-)"
    
    BJ

    Look on the positive side. You *could* say, "There's something
    different about you today. You look nice." :-)
    
    --- jerry

    yes, well, if all this advice on foot-in-mouth disease was spawned by
    my comments a ways back ...
    
    the gentleman who said 'you look so _much_ prettier...' made
    a point of telling me so days when I was _not_ wearing make-up.
    
    harmless really, even if he couldn't quite grasp that I came to work
    for reasons other than making his environment more decorative.
    
      Annie

    Re .36: I think Miss Manners' recommendation for well-meant-
    but-unwelcome comments like that was a mildly chilly "How kind of you
    to let me know"...
    
    -b

    I had the good fortune to ride in a car with 3 men to and from
    work every day.
    
    In most things they were great-
    
    But ...
    
    Almost daily, on our rides home from work, they would stare out
    the window at women walking by and say one of the following:
    
    "Wow man! Look at the ho- babe "
    or-
    "She want's it. I can tell"
    or-
    "Now there's a woman that wants to experience the myth."
    (The last was from black men.  The myth is the myth of black
    male sexual superiority.)
    
    I asked them to hold off, and recognize that there was a female
    in the car, and could they be carefull of their comments.  But
    they just agreed for the moment and continued it the next day.
    My protests were of no use.
    
    So I took to answering with the following to them, or about passing
    men:
    
    "Somebody go pet that righteous stud puppy"
    -or-
    "Check it out man! Chocolate on a Stick! To bad it melts."
    (Referring to black men.Vanilla can be substituted)
    -or-
    "See him! He wants to experience the reality"
    (Referencing black women.)
    
    It stopped them dead.  They spent a lot of time shaking
    their heads, and saying how unbelievable I was.  However
    the tit for tat approach appeared to work.  I also imagine
    it is only safe to try with people you know.
    
    Crude, I know.
    But applicable.
    
    Cindi
    

    RE:  .38
    
>    It stopped them dead.  They spent a lot of time shaking
>    their heads, and saying how unbelievable I was.  However
>    the tit for tat approach appeared to work.  
    
    So, Cindi, they saw you behaving "unbelievably", but they couldn't see
    the same behaviour in themselves?   Amazing...
    
    It's interesting that they wouldn't honor a direct request from you
    except for that one day.  Then the next day they "forgot" about your
    request.  
    
    Sounds like your approach really made the point.  You didn't have to
    resort to explicitly calling them accountable for their behaviour as
    unacceptable, an action which I suspect might have evoked a defensive
    response.  Perhaps they recognized their behaviour in themselves when
    they saw it from you.
    
    I don't know what I would've done if I had tried your approach and the
    results had been different; ie, encouragning even more blatantly sexist
    remarks.  I've shied away from the tit-for-tat approach becuz of where
    it might lead if the other party called my bluff and escalated the
    behaviour.  
    
    Good show!
    
    Nancy

    I agree, there is great potential for misunderstanding this.
    It really does, as I said before, have a better chance with
    men who really know you.
    
    --But it can be very satisfying.
    
    I got tired of having men tease and put down women, and then
    tell me I had no sense of humor if I objected to it.  That
    left me with no recourse but to be considered b*tchy, intolerant,
    and inflexible.- Or to be silently put upon by the "jests".
    
    So now, I offer fair warning, I request that it not be done,
    and after that- I do a George Foreman & Evander Holleyfield-
    taking it blow for blow, and jibe for jibe until somebody
    finally gets tired.  Of course, for this you must have a lot
    of heart.  Also, you must be dealing with people that you
    have a chance for a long standing relationship with.  Eventually,
    good men will often see what they are doing.
    
    They may continue it, but they do so without the ability
    to ignore me for being "too emotional".  
    
    At worst, I am just unconventional.
    
    I imagine that in the business world, it would not work because
    unconventionality is often feared and tied to corporate
    instability.  But every once in a while a "What a girl" answered
    with a "and you're quite a boy yourself." and a "You whipper
    snapper" answered with "What a grand old old old man you are" does
    the heart good.
    
    Cindi
             

    Good for you, Cindi!  :-)
    
    Nanci

This was totally unintentional, and you all have my permission to use it:

years ago, I was working overnight on a real bear of a system problem...when
I arrived home after 12 hours overtime at 07:30 AM, the phone rang.  I ran
to pick it up, figuring another really big blowup was in the wind.  The
conversation went something like this:

	UNKNOWN MALE VOICE: "I wanna grab your ***** and then I wanna....

this went on for a few seconds (quite graphically) while I oriented my tired 
brain on the reality of this phone call....then

	ME: "is this an obscene phone call?"

	UNKNOWN MALE VOICE: [insert pause] "you mean you didn't know?!?"

he hung up.  Unlike most obscene phone callers do, he never called back.  In
fact, my male friends assure me that he probably will never make another 
obscene phone call in his life.

    Re: .42
    
    This reminds me of another unintentional "golden comeback" that
    happened at my wife's office...
    
    Background:  Tamara works for a very small (10-person) software house 
    in Boston; all the cubies are within shouting distance of one another,
    and the place is so small that the engineers take turns doing customer
    support.
    
    So one day, a call comes in for customer support, and taking CS calls
    that day is Amy.  Amy is a quiet, shy, somewhat naive Asian woman.
    She picks up the call:
    
    	[Heavy breathing on other end of phone]
    
    	Amy:  Hello?  Hello??
    
    	[More heavy breathing]
    
    	Amy:  Hello?  This is Customer Support; may I help you?
    
    	[More heavy breathing]
    
    	Amy:  Shall I put you on the speakerphone so everyone can hear you?
    
    	*click!*
    
    To this day, nobody can figure out WHY anyone would place an obscene
    customer-support call 8-) 8-) 8-)
    
    [Hmmm... anyone in CSSE got any interesting war stories to tell?]
    
    --jim
    

    
    	re: Jim
    
    	They just dialed a random number.  I can't tell you how
    	many very obscene messages have been left on my answering
    	machine here at work.
    
    	JJ
    

> I can't tell you how
>    	many very obscene messages have been left on my answering
>    	machine here at work.

 So they say. Now who can say there's nothing good about voice mail? :-)

> They just dialed a random number.

Maybe, but not likely... the call first went to a receptionist, and the
guy very clearly asked for "Customer Support".  If he wanted to give a
woman a hard time, he could've stopped at the receptionist...

> I can't tell you how many very obscene messages have been left on 
> my answering machine here at work.

I take it then that the guy calls random numbers, and if a woman answers
he launches into his spiel?

--jim

    

    
    	re: Jim
    
    	Oh, ok.  Maybe he knew the person in CS then.
    
    	In regards to my answering machine.  I guess so.  Unfortunately,
    	there's no way for me to tell if this person has dialed my number 
    	directly or one of the 80 engineers I support.  And it always
    	happens over the weekend.
    
    	fJJ
    

    From a comedian my daughter couldn't name, on cable TV.  Not an
    absolutely accurate quotation.
    
    "I went on a date with this guy, and eventually he put his arm around
    me and said, `Baby, I've got just what you need.'
    
    "I said, `Yeah, it's a pity that the rest of you is attached to the end
    of it.'"