Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Hey, I love 'em small.

D!

    From what I understand, large breasts can be a real handicap when
    dealing with men. Sometimes its hard to get their attention away from
    your chest. Sometimes you wonder whether they're dating you just so
    that they can feel you up. I've had two very good friends who were
    large breasted, and neither of them seemed overly thrilled.
    
    I guess the grass is always greener...

    I've been  told (by a large breasted woman) that breast feeding is
    easier with small breasts.  She was nursing at the time.

--David

A woman I was/am dating was one of the few women I have met who was
genuinely totally comfortable with her (very) small breasts.  She is 
a very active person and says they would get in her way.  It probably
helps that she is a Lesbian and therefore was never very concerned with
whether her small breasts would inhibit her ability to attract men.

I found her attitude really refreshing, and it made me feel a lot better
about myself.  I have met so many small-breasted women who aren't happy
that way, and they tell me time and time again how lucky I am to have
large breasts, and it makes me uncomfortable, because while I don't dislike
my breasts, I don't consider myself "lucky" to have them; they make it
hard to find clothes, cause back problems, get in the way of things and
attract more male notice than I would want.  It was great to talk to a
small-breasted woman who thought that her breasts were fine and my breasts
were fine, too.

Oh, as for advantages, I am told that large breasted women tend to have
less sensitive nipples.  I know that my anecdotal experiences support this.

D!

What on earth *are* the advantages of large breasts, anyway?  The only time
I've ever heard this allegation is from small-breasted women (and I've never
seen one accept an offer to trade.  I consider this significant).

Forget "looking like a Playboy model".  This is reality:

	1. bra straps that cut into your shoulders
	2. can't wear 90% of the summer fashions (and I'm using that term 
		loosely)
	3. can't run on the beach in a swimsuit (even the built-in bras
		are *never* large enough, and therefore can't offer *any*
		support)
	4. breast self-exams that are long and sometimes painful
	5. catcalls and other unwelcome references to your anatomy (including
		the ever-popular class of "cow jokes")
	6. painful flopping if you run down stairs braless
	7. blouse front gap
	8. lower back pain (get a pair of those soft wrist weights and
		strap them to your chest for a day if you don't believe me)
	9. blouses, tight sweaters, etc...
	10. having to wear a bra even when it's 90 degrees in the shade,
	    under something with enough coverage that you *could* wear a
	    bra under it
	11. Falling out of anything strapless (this wasn't the motivation
		for my p-name, but it could have been)

The *only* "credible" advantage I've *ever* heard of to having large breasts
is that, depending on location, a tumor has more room to expand before it 
attaches to the chest wall.  Frankly, I am uninterested in reading a list of 
the *many* advantages small-breasted women get in compensation.  Sorry.

	Torked,
	Sharon

    OK I'll probably get slammed for this but.. I sympathize. I'm
    overweight and most of it is in my stomach. Some has also risen up from
    there. You know. The old sunken chest bit. It ain't that bad, but I
    have developed loose fat in the area that for women are breasts. I have
    noticed some jiggling (Can't call it flopping) when I run and this does
    tend to hurt after a bit. So while it isn't much and I'll never know
    most of what women go through with this problem, just because nature
    decided to make women the feeders of the newborns, I do sympathize.
    Doesn't mean I don't lke 'em big and small or not there at all. I do.
    I'm only a human male. It also doesn't mean I stare at 'em either. If
    anything was taught to me here. it's to use eyecontact when holding a
    normal human conversation with someone. Not because it's wrong to stare
    at another part of someones anatomy while talking, (it is though) but
    because it's only right to show a little human courtesy when talking to
    someone.
    
    Phil

    Well, I think that the major advantage of having larger breasts is that
    it seems to help attract men, which is something I wanted very much to
    do when I was a flatchested, skinny teenager, and in my early 20's. 
    (Well, I did get married to a really cute man when I was only 23 so
    right now I'm beginning to wonder what my exact complaint is....I think
    it's that it took so long for me to begin attracting men...when I was
    16 I looked about 12...)
    
    I wouldn't want really *big* breasts like Dolly Parton.  Personally,
    that doesn't appeal to me, and they get commented on all the time, too. 
    But, I do think it would be nice to have normal, average sized breasts,
    like a B cup, for example.
    
    It is nice not to have to wear a bra, and I think it must feel weird to
    have big boobs.  I mean, I can no more imagine having big breasts than
    I can imagine having a penis.  
    
    I just don't like to have people comment on something about me and make
    it seem like a deficiency, especially when it's something I can't help,
    and it's incredible how many times people have commented on it to me in
    the past.  Not so much now.  It was more when I was younger.
    
    Once at work I had a manager say, "You look good in that dress.  You
    know you'd have a really nice body, if you only had bigger tits."  Like
    a fool, I said, "Thank you" before I realized the full implications of
    that comment.  *sigh*
    
    Lorna
      

I've never considered it a "major advantage" to be able to attract men
who were primarily interested in my chest.  (You've *got* to be kidding!)

I can certainly sympathize with being teased as a teenager; I actually
had the nickname "flatsie" for a while.  :-}

    Sharon

Re: .5 

Hey, this was supposed to be the "advantages of small breasts" note, not
the "disadvantages of large breasts" note.  Maybe we need someone with
large breasts to start an "advantages of large breasts" note for balance.

Like D!, on other women I like all sizes of brests.  They just about
amost always seem to fit their owners exactly right.  On me in particular,
I like small breasts.  I wish everybody liked hers as much as I like 
mine.  (Not to imply that I have a fixation on my breasts; I like my
other parts equally well.)


Re: teenage boys

I am pretty sure that most teenage boys and most men, for that matter,
like breasts of all sizes, too.  I bet when teenage boys make comments
about teenage girls breasts (of any size), it's because they noticed
them, and they liked them, and they wanted to attract the girl's
attention, but they are not very well versed in the art of flirting,
and they couldn't think of anything else to say.  (Obviously, some
of these teenage boys manage to turn into men without ever learning
the social graces.  Too bad for them, I say.)

I suspect that most men do not use breast size as a relationship criterion.
I have met a few men who liked only women who had small breasts, but they
had so many emotional troubles that I would not consider them suitable
companions for anyone.  I would guess that men who were exclusively
attracted to women who had large breasts would have similar problems
(I'm not likely to find out about that type of men first hand, though.)

Re: what breasts are for

In other primates, enlarged breasts in a non-pregnant, non-lactating
female indicate that she is receptive to sex.  There is probably 
something deep inside the male human primate brain that says "swollen
up lumps on female chest = female is ready for sex."  Obviously,
humans are influenced by culture, too.  But I think the primitive
primate responses help explain why men notice breasts.  Enlarged
breasts all the time are not required for lactation.  They are that
way for some other reason.

    I'm making a suggestion here, as a moderator, that this
    discussion be renamed 'breast size and how itaffects women'
    
    
    would that be a problem?
    
    Bon

Renaming this note "breast size and how it affects women"  would change
it's intent.  I saw women making negative comments about the size of
their breasts.  I wanted to make some positive comments.  I know about
having small breasts, because that's what I have, so that's what I
made my note about.  I think it would be great if someone else started
an "advantages of large breasts" note.

I think it is healthy to try to think of (and talk about) the things
we like about our bodies.  I hope I can do that without others feeling
defensive of their bodies.

Mac

    How about 'women making/reacting to negative feelings about their
    breasts'????
    Its' to long
    
    :-)

    Having large breasts may get more responses from men who have breast
    fetishes and who have the ultimate tact to talk down wards (at your
    breasts) rather than upwards.  I have to ask myself if that's really
    what I'm looking for in a man, and when I answer myself I realize the
    net gain is zero.
    
    In the past I had a 45" chest.  They were stared at, commented on, I am
    fully aware that when I jog they are the focus of attention (even WITH
    a jogbra on), and I get comments even now on my "lungs" or my "posture"
    or whatever.  I try to be polite about it most of the time, realizing
    they're joking.  I once asked a man point=blank why he had become
    interested in me and THEY were his answer.    I don't know if I'd
    rather be invisible or overly visible (being in the middle might be
    nice, as Lorna said, maybe a B cup) can be said to be a good thing. At
    either end of the spectrum you attract unwanted comments that make you
    feel uncomfortable and, again, reduce women to the sum of their bodily
    parts, and these bodily parts are often adjudged against some cultural
    standard of "normal" or "beautiful" which th bell-curve of humanity
    INTENTIONALLY placed most people away from (for variety, I like to
    think, or in the name of chaos perhaps).
    
    -Jody
    

    one advantage of smaller breasts:
    
    i look more slender (which i like) - ever notice that large breasts
    give women the illusion of being overweight?  the extra mass on the
    chest tends to hide the fact that the waist and hips are really quite
    slim.  most of the larger-breasted women i know think they need to lose
    weight - even though their waist and hips are BOTH smaller than mine; 
    if i'm "soooo skinny" and their waist and hips are more "skinny" than
    mine, why are they dieting???

    re:.2--->Having (what I'd call) small to average sized breasts, I can
    honestly say that it isn't ONLY large breasted women, who have their
    chests stared at during conversation w/ RUDE and tacky BOYS.
    
    One advantage that I can think of right off, is small breasted women
    can sleep on their stomach's more comfortably than large breasted
    women. 
    
    Ummmmmm, this is tough, I've never considered the ADVANTAGES of having
    small breasts. To tell you the truth I always secretly wished they were
    bigger, & I DON'T EVEN KNOW WHY!!!!! I'm glad you started this note,
    Mac!! I'll tell you...you acheived your goal! I have no idea why I
    wished for larger breasts & evaluating these feelings, has made me
    realize that I AM VERY HAPPY with my body the way it is. I wouldn't
    take the chance of ruining that happiness by changing ANYTHING about
    my physical appearance. It *may* very well make me happier...but is
    that a chance I'm willing to take?....No. I'll stick with what I've
    got, I'm OK with it!
    
    Bonnie Lou

    I have deleted .15.  I have learned something in this string.  Men are
    not permitted to engage in clearly announced speculation which has the
    equally clear intent of learning something.
    
    -d

    no -d
    
    men have to learn that there are 'hot buttons' that are more than
    that.....
    
    think about how some men feel in re penis size, and multiply that
    by, maybe 2,000 for women and breasts....
    
    you just didn't know how *sensitive* this is for women...
    
    I've just seen notes by women who are smaller and larger in
    breast size than I am, and I am the size given as optimum
    more or less by both......
    
    and I think *I* am inadequte.....
    
    sigh
    
    Bonnie

    .21
    
    What an appropriate quote for women. What is its source?
    
    D.

    
    
    Since I've lost ~30 lbs, I've gone from a 38B to a 36A.  I love it, and
    I most definitely won't complain.
    
    I don't like wearing a bra, never have, never will.  While I was
    growing up, my neighbor across the street was VERY heavy (almost
    300lbs).  She dieted and lost weight all the way down to about 145lbs,
    yet her breasts were still huge.  As a present to herself, she had them
    reduced.....to a 36A.....she said she liked the size of mine so much.
    ;-)
    
    
    I couldn't ever see big breasts as being an advantage.  My lovers have
    liked mine (they're pert and very firm.....bodybuilding makes 'em even
    MORE firm!)....  In fact, a lot of men I know don't seem to like too
    big of breasts on women.
    
    
    Anyway...
    
    kath

    
    The only complaint I have about my small chest is the difficulty
    of finding bras that fit, esp. sports bras. My breasts were bigger 
    when I was expecting and nursing and I didn't feel right with them.  
    They felt....like fake!!!! I think I am used to what I have.
    I've never really wanted to date anybody who's only attracted to my body 
    or my face, I mean, my body and my face will slowly disintegrate
    with the years. I don't want to get dumped when my wrinkles start
    to form and my breasts start to droop! 
    
    
    Eva

I've always been glad to be the size I am.  I'd rather be small-breasted than
large, and there are several advantages.  Most have been given already -- more
comfortable to sleep on stomach, most (*not* all) clothes fit more easliy, not
so much blouse gap (there is some).  Another advantage is that when I had my
children, and my breasts enlarged with milk, I didn't go from large to huge, I
went from small to medium.  I had little trouble nursing, but have seen women
larger than I am have trouble because of the difference in size between their
enlarged nipples and the baby's small mouth.  Also, I've never had a 'bounce'
problem.

But -- all the problems women with large breasts have with unwelcome or
inappropriate attention from men, I have had too.  Sisters, surely by now we 
have figured out that we don't have to be <pick-your-image-of-voluptuous-woman>
to be the object of, um, men's facination.  We just have to be female, and in
their line of sight.  Kind of like that old fable, "boys don't make passes at
girls who wear glasses". Wrong. _Boys_ make passes and/or derogatory comments at
any and all women. (Many men don't.)  It's called the objectification of women;
my revulsion at automatically being the object of explicit sexual evaluation is
one of the things that makes me identify as a feminist.

I have little more than disdainful contempt for *anybody* (both genders) whose
romantic attractions are only or primarily driven by physical attractiveness --
there is more to me than this body, or the shape it's in, and those who don't
know it are not worth the investment of my respect or time.

Sara

>I have little more than disdainful contempt for *anybody* (both genders) whose
>romantic attractions are only or primarily driven by physical attractiveness --
>there is more to me than this body, or the shape it's in, and those who don't
>know it are not worth the investment of my respect or time.
    
    To the extent that what you just said makes sense, I agree with it :^)
    
    But there is no objective standard of what is physically attractive.
    And so much of your emotional makeup is displayed in your physical
    being (your radiance, your body language, your facial expressions)
    that there is not nearly the dichotomy between what's inside and what's
    outside that myth would have you believe.  And how another interprets
    your physical display is very tied up with hir (hey look guys I'm PC
    :^) own emotional makeup.  I.e., there is (unavoidably) much more to
    your body, than just its shape.
    
    According to the book I'm reading (nothing worse than someone reading
    a book :^) lasting romantic attractions are almost always driven by
    an initial physical attraction and those initial physical attractions
    are generally pretty accurate.
    
    I grew up with Playboy's in my closet, but the women I've been
    physically attracted to have run the gamut (in more ways than one :^).
    On the other hand, my wife of 20 years was once offered a job as a
    Playboy bunny waitress in a Playboy Club ;^)  (Among her other assets,
    however, she possesses a very large IQ, and so she turned them down.)
    
    My wife never sleeps on her stomach.
    
    				- Vick
    

Er, I'm going to repeat this one more time.

Speaking as a large-breasted women, I have no objections to the charter of
this note, but *do* object to notes which have been border on the offensive
to large-breasted women. It *is* possible to discuss advantages of small
breasts without saying things along the lines of "I can't see why any woman
would want large breasts".  Please refrain from the latter.

Thank you.

D!

I'm going to repeat this one more time, too.

Unlike D!, I (as another non small-breasted woman) actually find the charter 
of this note to be a slap in the ...er, face.  I would just as soon read 
men gloating about the advantages of being male.

    
    I personally like being hit in the face with large breasts!
    
    But, don't have a problem at all with small ones.  Ya know what
    they say.....if you keep playing with them, they will get bigger.
    True or not....its fun trying.
    
    
    :-)
    
    	Hal

.26, I'm so glad you shared a description of your wife with us.  Thanks ever so.

"romantic" was perhaps not the exact word needed to convey my meaning.  I was
using it more how 'marry' is used by a boy who exclaims "let's get married" 
to a woman he 'admires' on the street.  

What you (summing up here) said "me too" to, is that physical characteristics,
and in particular breast size, are only a small part of the person.

Sara

open the pod bay doors, hal.  then jump.

    hal, you blew it!
    
    wrong place, wrong time.

    
    What ever do you mean???  Why are you picking on me?  
    
    The way I saw it....all the small breasted women were picking on
    the big breasted women and the big breasted women were upset about
    it...then some of you were catagorizing men saying that all they
    bother to look at on a woman is their breasts before looking at 
    the person themselves.  I beg to differ with you on the second...
    I for one, as said in my first note...in not so many words...it
    doesn't make a difference.  Big or small, its the person behind
    them that counts!
    
    BTW, I seem to remember someone else saying they like small ones and
    no one said anything to them......maybe its because of something
    else???
    
    	Later...
    		the Chief
    

    Hal,
    
    I suggest that you re-read your own note.  You said *NOTHING* about
    "the person behind" the breasts.  Your reply gives every evidence
    of being insensitive and vulgar.
    
    						Ann B.

    re .34
    i agree with her comments Hal. If it was a mistake, let us know,
    if it was intentional, expect to get bashed.
    
    
    			herb

    I guess this is my take on the topic.
    
    At first glance, it feels like a slap.
    
    But I realize that for a long time (centuries, probably, barring
    several decades like the 20's and 60's when slender-all-over was in),
    small-breasted women FELT out of favor.  This is a space for them to
    talk about it, and I reached into myself and found some supporting
    evidence for their views, so I shared it.  
    
    Because this is a place for them to find each other, support each
    other, share their ideas, and create a way of feeling comfortably
    and/or venting about society's take on breast size, it is NOT a slap to
    larger-breasted women (intentionallyt, at least, nobody can forsee
    everybody's hot buttons).  It is a supportive area for small-breasted
    women (no pun intended ;).  
    
    I thought for a bit about starting a note for large breasted
    advantages, and found that not only did I, personally, not need one,
    but that FELT TO ME like starting a support-of-men topic in a women's
    file (kind of a meta-process cross-view here, please bear with me).  It
    would be like the people who have felt slighted and/or discounted for
    many centuries saying "wow, we're okay - there are advantages to this"
    and people who seem to have been advocated for many centuries saying
    "how dare you slap us in the face with your advantages, they hurt us
    because they lessen us".  The power skew makes me feel this topic is
    okay in its context, if it helps those who participate at all, and
    helps people see the other side of the coin in the bigger picture of
    the file.
    
    -Jody
    

>    What ever do you mean???  Why are you picking on me?  

What ever do you mean??? Why do you think someone is picking on you?

D! who will never understand people who think adjacency is the primary
   relationship rather than semantics

    
    Moderator Reply:
    
    Herb,  No one should "expect to be bashed," if by "bashed" you mean 
    mistreated.  I won't allow it.
    ======================================================================
    
    Personal Reply:
    
    However, as a feminist, I am always glad to see women and men
    responding quickly and forcefully if they feel that women are
    being slighted.
    
    Justine

    814.21
    
    Interesting how no one in this string was offended by the quote
    referenced in .21.   I guess the importance of breasts is more
    important than being told yet again, a thousand years later,
    'to be quiet, ladylike, unassertive' and then, 'maybe, just maybe,
    we'll listen to you.'
    
    I know of several quiet ladylike women who lived with bloody mouths
    and backs everytime they tried to 'say something.'
    
    Sigh.
    
    M.
    

    Maia,
    
    My suspicion is that .22 indicates that its author was not especially
    thrilled with the quote.  Beyond that, it's being discussed in the
    Processing topic.  At least there was one person clever enough to take
    it there!  (It wouldn't have been me.)
    
    						Ann B.

Re: the quote in .21

It's also being discussed - or at least there is an invitation to
discuss it - in the Rathole topic, where I towed it.

-d

    I have dreams about getting a breast reduction ... seriously.
    
    Having large breasts is a curse.  I envy you all.
    
    Tammi (who always gets rude comments and stares directed at her by men)

re: .36 (Jody)

> The power skew makes me feel this topic is okay in its context

        As far as I am aware, having large breasts has *never* been an
	avenue to power.

> It would be like the people who have felt slighted and/or discounted for
>    many centuries saying "wow, we're okay - there are advantages to this"

	I don't think anyone in here has felt slighted and/or discounted
	for centuries. ;-)  Kidding aside, thin women and small-hipped
	women felt slighted and/or discounted for many centuries too.
	(I'm not sure small breasts were discounted to the same degree;
	if you look at art, the "ideal female form" has varied throughout
	the ages, but is almost rarely depicted with breasts I'd describe
	as "large").  In the case of breasts, weight, and hips, women's 
	modern-day experience is likely to be different.

>    "how dare you slap us in the face with your advantages, they hurt us
>    because they lessen us".

	That's not (quite) what I've been saying.  I don't feel lessened 
	because some women prefer having small breasts.  There is *nothing* 
	wrong with being comfortable with the shape of your body.

> it is NOT a slap to larger-breasted women (intentionallyt, at least

	I feel that the basenote was based on the premise that society
	places value on the size of a woman's breasts, in a the-bigger-the-
	better-looking sort of continuum.  I'm aware that this is a widely
	held premise, but it is mistaken.  Both large-breasted women and
	small-breasted women have felt slighted by [our] society because
	of breast size.  It is *not* the small-versus-large issue that the
	title of this note seems to imply.

>    I thought for a bit about starting a note for large breasted
>    advantages, and found that not only did I, personally, not need one

	Large breasts can give rise to physical and practical reasons for
	dissatisfaction for one's breast size, which are not inconsistent
	with having a positive body image.  Whereas emotional support can
	help one combat a negative body image, it is improbable that it
	will help foster a positive attitude towards enduring pain or being
	unable to find clothing.

	Having large breasts can give rise to some very real problems,
	some physical, some related to harrassment and feelings of comfort.
        To attempt to combat the "bigger is better" attitude that gets
	bandied around from time to time by listing the advantages of
	smaller breasts "in return" is to hit large-breasted women with 
	both swings of the pendulum.

		Sharon

    I agree with everything you just said, Sharon.
    
    Please feel free to start a companion note if you feel it's necessary.
    
    -Jody
    

    re.42 umm, Tammi, your note and personal_name stand in delicious 
    irony.

    re .42, You seriously would like to be a size 32A? :-)  I think you'd
    quickly find the disadvantages to that as well.  But, I wouldn't want
    to be huge either.  As I mentioned before I think the ideal is a B cup. 
    I'd be happy with 32B's.  
    
    Rude people tend to make their comments on the extra large or the extra
    small it seems.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    My take?
    We are all as we are.
    Learn to love yourself and your own body, whatever shape it is.
    Different folks are sexually attracted by different features -
    whatever you do to your shape you'll never please all the people
    all the time.
    It's a lot more fun to just get on with your life rather than wish
    things were different.
    
    Yes, the media etc. throw propaganda at us that shapes, possibly,
    what people are sexually attracted to. But hell, we deal with
    all kinds of propaganda all the time - the shape of womens' bodies
    is only a part of what they throw at us. At least we can choose
    our own level of self-esteem about our bodies. 
    
    I'm happy with the shape of my body. I'm not going to talk about
    the size of my breasts - I feel that I am aiding people in 
    objectifying me by doing so, and what's worse, I'd be objectifying
    myself. I am more than my body parts. 
    
    I feel uncomfortable with this topic, and I can't quite work out
    why. Maybe it's because I know there's a male audience out there,
    and they've been conditioned into a sexual view of breasts as
    fetish objects (well,*some* have), so I feel a discomfort with
    a potential voyeuristic slant (entirely my perception - I have
    a great dislike to exhibitionistic/voyeuristic noting, which
    fortunatly doesn't seem to happen too often in here).
    
    I got to thinking how I'd feel about a topic entitled
    "The Advantages of a Small Penis".....maybe I'll go start that
    in =mn=....
    
    'gail
    
    

    re .47, I agree that people need to learn to feel comfortable with
    their own bodies and not let the media get to them, but I also think it
    can help sometimes for people to be able to share past feelings they've
    had.  This way we find out that we're not alone in our feelings.  There
    hasn't been only one teenage girl in the history of mankind who wished
    she had a better body.  There have been hundreds of thousands and it
    helps me to realize this.
    
    Also, I think everyone should realize that just because someone might
    be slightly unhappy about one certain physical attribute, there might
    be others that she's pleased about.  Someone who wished for bigger
    breasts might be perfectly happy with her hair, or face, or legs, or
    derriere, so it doesn't necessarily mean that, overall, she isn't
    comfortable with her looks.
    
    As far as what men reading this topic might think, personally I'm not
    going to spend much time worrying about it.
    
    Lorna
    

   > There hasn't been only one teenage girl in the history of mankind who 
   > wished she had a better body. 
    
    True Lorna, and I wouldn't want to squelch any useful sharing that
    people are doing here.
    
    I just go down a hole thinking about what a "better" body is
    (better than what? better than whose? who thinks it's better?)
    so I just love what I have and give it no further thought.
    
    'gail
    
    

well, for me a better body would be one that was not nearsighted, and could
deliver (big) babies without medical intervention.  Sigh.  And I wouldn't mind
not being allergic to poison ivy, or having naturally hard teeth instead of a
mouthful of fillings.

Sara

>    I feel uncomfortable with this topic, and I can't quite work out
>    why. Maybe it's because I know there's a male audience out there,
>    and they've been conditioned into a sexual view of breasts as
>    fetish objects (well,*some* have), so I feel a discomfort with
>    a potential voyeuristic slant (entirely my perception - I have
>    a great dislike to exhibitionistic/voyeuristic noting, which
>    fortunatly doesn't seem to happen too often in here).
    
>    I got to thinking how I'd feel about a topic entitled
>    "The Advantages of a Small Penis".....maybe I'll go start that
>    in =mn=....
    

Hi 'gail,

I've had some of the same thoughts. For the life of me, I can't imagine
men speaking in a public forum about the size of their penises and how
they feel about them. And if there was a note like that, I admit it,
I'd read it, and there would be a certain amount of voyeurism involved......
(Though it would be interesting to hear men talk about how they *feel*
about having a small penis.)

Is this willingness/unwillingness to discuss the size of our body
parts just another difference between men and women?

What happens when men listen in on these kinds of conversations? Does
it cause more or less of the "women = body parts" kind of thinking?

Kathy

    	Well since I am male I can never actually answer what the
    advantages of having small breasts would be like. I have never
    been conditioned to view the female breast as a fetish object 
    no more than viewing a female elbow as one. I just needed to 
    speak out since I felt voyeuristic in reading this note and 
    wanted to express my feelings. Why is everyone so hung up on
    body parts? I mean inner beauty is where its at. I guess the 
    general public needs to be realigned to this fact. 
    	However, on a more clinical term. I have a sister that was
    a 48DD. She had respitory problems, spinal problems and numerous
    psychological problems from being harassed about her size. She 
    also wanted to have children and with the potential of her growing
    in size and staying even larger made it even a greater health risk
    to her physical well being. So she had reduction surgery. And I
    can say that she has NEVER been happier until now. So only from
    that point of view can I express how I feel about the subject. 

    	-brian-

I think in this case that it's not an analogous situation; breasts are more
obvious to the world at large.  I also think that body parts in general are
a more practical issue to discuss for women, because women's clothing is less
individually sized than men's.  In other words, it makes a bigger difference
in a woman's life if she's tall, or has especially large hips, than it does
in a man's.

If men translate this into women == body parts, then that's an application
of cultural context, not a derivative conclusion.  If it were, it'd probably
be a lot easier for some of us to find clothes... ;-}

re: .52 (Brian)

    *Respiratory* problems?  Of what sort?  I've never heard of this before.
    How was this problem traced to the breasts?

	Sharon

    	It was a compound of other things that caused respitory problems,
    but the size and weight were a factor. She had chronic broncitis which
    was another factor. But her doctors included her respitory problems in
    their diagnosis because of insurance reasons. The operation wasn't
    considered cosmetic surgery, but dealing with the insurance company was
    a touchy situation on her part. 
    	I still cringe at the thought of having over 10 pounds of flesh
    removed from ones body. (That was about how much they removed from
    her). Okay, so I'm a baby when it comes to surgery......
    
    -brian-

    Speaking of small breasts...I was looking through the J. Crew catalog
    the other day and just loved the bathing suits they were showing!          
    Then it hit me that the models were tiny, just like me!  Usually           
    bathing suit models are pretty full chested and I know the bathing  
    suits won't fit. But, the J Crew suits are suitable for the small        
    breasted woman!  
    
    Kath

>Usually           
>    bathing suit models are pretty full chested and I know the bathing  
>    suits won't fit. But, the J Crew suits are suitable for the small        
>    breasted woman!

Hmmmm...I think bathing suit models are always small breasted, and I
*never* order bathing suits from catalogs because I know they won't fit
me.  Bathing suits are *never* large enough for me - I have to try on 
a zillion bathing suits to find one that fits - forget finding one I like,
I'm lucky to find one at all!  I figured bathing suits were all designed
for small-breasted women.

D! 
  

    
    Re .53
    I don't see the difference in clothing sizes, and I'm not sure
    it's relevant to the difference between breast size and penis
    size disputes....(for a start, I know lots of men who never seem
    to find stuff to fit - the waist/hip/leg lengths never seem to
    match up, as I recall)....
    
    The similarity struck me because men seem to be "shamed" or
    pressured by the media and other myths about penis size in the same 
    way that women are about breast size.
    
    I do feel that there is something particularly feminine in this
    public statement of internalised body-image. I can't imagine
    men talking about it in the same way.
    
    'gail
    

    How about those bathing suites that already have preshaped breasts on
    them?  I always look at them in amazement thinking it would take me
    plus a couple of watermelons to fill the built-in bra!
    
    Actually almost any Size 3 or Size 5 bathing suit that doesn't have a
    built-in bra fits me just fine.  I just wish they were less expensive.
    
    Lorna
    

    Also on bathing suits.
    
    -- I get to keep mine until the first time they get accidentally dried.
    
    MONGO warp.  Even I could not convice my bulk to go into the shapes
    the cups take on.
    
    I have wondered what the alternative would be like...
    
    
    Probably divorce...
    
    Cindi 

Please.  This thing about men having small p*n*ses is must be a myth.
I've never heard a single man mention it!

    
    what's a p*n*s?
    
    D.

    .61  And rarely do women mention it.  In all of our Non-PC discussions
    about men and sex I do not believe we ever discussed the size of men's
    p*n*ses, have we Lorna or liesl?
    
    It seems that the size of our breasts is cause for comment quite
    frequently among males.
    
    I find that interesting.
    

    p*n*s- a little obelisk.
    
    P*N*S- a larger obelisk.  Often coveted by men.
    
    Cindi

    What they deal with at bachelor parties?
    
    -b

    In over 5 years of hitting the locker room here at ZK, I have never
    overheard a discussion of women's body parts.  Nor is it generally
    true that men in small groups (at least the educated, professional type
    men I've typically associated with) drift toward that subject.  We talk
    about our own bodily aches and pains, sports, cars, the weather, work,
    our families, financial matters, philosophical matters, hobbies, our
    homes, etc, etc, but almost never do we talk about female anatomy.
    I hope no one here is too disappointed.
    
    How do I feel about this discussion?  Not voyeuristic.  I've found it
    interesting, but it's kind of like listening to my teenage daughter and
    her friends talking about boys when I'm driving them here or there. 
    I.e., it's interesting to know what you women like (or don't like) to
    talk about.  I do find women's breasts sexually interesting (large or
    small).  However, I don't find TALK about women's breasts sexually 
    interesting.  Slightly embarrassing, perhaps, but not enough to get me 
    to hit the NEXT/UNSEEN key.
    
    Men don't generally talk about penis size unless they're drunk.  It's
    too sensitive a subject and men are sensitive (I've found) to other
    men's feelings.  
    					- Vick

    
    speaking of =
    
    	does small breasts = large butt
    
    		on the other hand
    
    	does large breasts = flat butt?
    
    		It seems to be true from what I've noticed.
    
    
    
    	speaking of the p n s .... don't you know... a guys p n s
    	is as long as the measurement from the tip of his middle finger 
    	to the base of his hand, at the wrist.  check it out....
    
    
    		Ok, I can hear it now...........ouch!
    
    
    	The Chief...
    

    Trebble is the upper part.
    Base is the lower part.
    
    No it is not true.
    
    Both my trebble and base are turned up loud.
    
    They are not mutually exclusive entities.
    
    Cindi

    re .66, I've found that women are often sensitive to men's feelings,
    too.  Maybe that's why liesl, Joyce and I never talked about *it*
    either.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  Actually, Joyce, I do seem to recall mentioning something once
    but nevermind.... :-)
    

    
     Small breasted women seem to have an easier time playing golf than do
    their fuller sized counterparts.
    
    Tony
    

    Archery is also a thrill for those with the trebble turned up loud.
    
    It kinda makes you understand why the Amazons would have removed 
    their left one.  It keeps the string from doing it for you.
    
    Cindi

    umm, Cindi, the better archery shops carry chest protectors for
    women (and men)
    
    You might want to check in the archery conference. Beats heck
    out of the 'Amazon alternative' :-)

    I have one....
      My coach...
        Al gave it to me...
    It is black, and lacy, and sheer.
    
    Even through that...
        the string will sometimes get ya...
           And make you think, that the Amazons Truly did have the
    wisdom of the ages.
    
    Cindi

    >It kinda makes you understand why the Amazons would have removed 
    >their left one.  It keeps the string from doing it for you.
    
    Er...I would have figured most of the Amazons were right-handed, too,
    in which case, wouldn't that be the right breast?
    
    D!
    
    [PS: Diana, Goddess of the Hunt, is often pictured with only one
    breast.]

    
    Re: .71
    Yeah, golf....and also anything involving cues....:-}
    
    Cindi - I found the string of the bow took off the skin on the
    side of my elbow - maybe I've just got hyper-knobbly elbows....
    
    Lorna - should we revive our..um...discussion here? ;-)
    We didn't get around to size....(and have you broken your rule yet?)
    
    Other stuff:-
    
    I think we're allowed to say penis in here.
    Funny - no-one thought to talk about small bre*s*s....
    
    I could imagine that men could be pretty sensitive about remarking
    on penis size. I think most women are sensitive about remarking
    to other women on their breast size (unless it's a compliment) -
    it's only men who seem to pass discomfiting comments on breasts.
    
    However, some men seem to feel quite comfortable doing this.
    I don't know many women who would be comfortable commenting on 
    the small size  of a man's penis (if it bothered them) -
    women been conditioned to be hypersensitive to this, I believe, and
    we're so scared that it'll wither up with embarassment or that
    it's owner will be so mortally offended that he'll leave us that
    we don't say anything.....
    
    I don't find it easy to say to a man "Hey, I love you, but what you've
    got really doesn't do it for me. Why don't we go shopping in
    Anne Summers for an extension? Nothing personal, you understand".
    
    It seems to be easier for many men to suggest uplift bras, padded
    whatevers, or other figure-changing/enhancing devices....
    
    I wonder why this is?                                    
    
    'gail
    
    
    
    

    RE.75 Right-handed archers generally hold the bow extended with
    their left arm and hold-and-release the arrow with their right.
    This allows aiming with the right eye. If the stance is roughly
    normal to the arrow direction the string will travel across the
    chest from right to left. Persons with large pectoral development,
    like me and Arnold fer instance ;-) may have trouble with the
    string hiiting the chest. Ditto for women, of course.

    <set mode = grumpy>
    
    I find this whole string ludicrous; it rings of junior high days.
    
    Maia
    

    re .78, nostalgia can be good.  :-)
    
    re .76, 'gail, ha-ha-ha, no we'd probably best *not* revive that
    conversation here, but someday we definitely should! :-)  (btw,
    rule still remains unbroken, but I do live in the U.S.!)  ha-ha
    
    re .71, I'm not interested in golf.
    
    Lorna
    

    As is seen in nick names-
    Cindi ===Cynthia === Phebe === Selina === Diana... Huntress and Archer.
    
    I fit the archer.  My SO assures me that I also fit the huntress.
    I am right handed, and can confirm the previous stance definition.
    
    ---- Re hitting your Elbow- There are full arm guards for folks
    that do that.  Also- coach had us keep our elbows way out of the
    way, it was uncomfortable at first.... but later yielded better
    scores... but that is a different discussion -----
    
    How does it relate to the topic?
    Smaller pectorals were easier to make set points and stances
    for in archery.  The additional pectoral dimension did not interfere
    with your shooting.
    
    Cindi
    

    Re:  .71, by COMET::COSTA
    
    Oh, so that's my problem?  I now have another 'scuse' as to why I'm not
    a good golfer...yippy!
    
    -Dotti.

    
    Re: .78
    
    I agree.  Discussing the "advantages" of any size of breast implies
    that anyone with breasts of another size are at a "disadvantage" and
    should be pitied.  If you're really not happy with them, there's always
    surgery - otherwise IMO you should make the most of what you've got,
    without comparing them favourably or unfavourably with other people's.
    
    Reading this a person previously happy with their breasts could end up
    with quite a complex!
    
    Sam
      

    
    Re -1
    
    In hindsight, my last note makes me sound really grumpy - I'm not
    really, it's just that I was beginning to feel quite inferior to all
    those with small breasts!  Generally, I don't think there's much point
    in dwelling on it ... :-)
    
    Sam
    

>   RE.75 Right-handed archers generally hold the bow extended with
>    their left arm and hold-and-release the arrow with their right.
>    This allows aiming with the right eye. If the stance is roughly
>    normal to the arrow direction the string will travel across the
>    chest from right to left.

Yah, so? It still seems to me that in such a scenario, the *right* 
breast is more likely to get grazed by string and/or arrow than the
left breast.  And such was my experience back in my archery days -
abrasions on my *right* breast.

If the stance is really normal to the arrow direction, then nothing 
would get hit at all by the string!  However, you can't possible stand
normal to the arrow direction and still hold the bow with two hands...you
have to turn your body to face the bow so that you are actually standing
somewhere between normal and parallel to the direction of the arrow.

Now wasn't that fun?

D!

    With your left arm completely extended and locked it would be hard
    to pull the strings far enough back to endanger the right breast
    because the arrows are too short.
    						- Vick

    Once upon a time I held a bow in my hands and, being right handed
    and right-eyed, the notch came close to my right eye and the string
    went from there, diagonally downward to my left side and could not
    possible hit the right side of my chest when released but I can see
    how a fleshy mass on the left pectoral might get abraded, to say the
    least, when the arrow is released.  Now if I were to pull my head
    back over my right shoulder, it would be uncomfortable but the
    string might then clip my right side.
    
    ed

    
    Re .79
    Lorna - maybe we can take it up again at the party?
    I'm sure actions and a few glasses of wine would only help...:-)
    
    RE; GENERAL
    Is some Amazon going to start an archery string?
    
    'gail

I guess it depends on your perspective.

    R= Right Hand
    L= Left Hand
    u= Small Breast Advantage, and happy archer
    o= Mouth or Set point.
    \= Amazon Fodder

        !!!
        ===
        @ -     (
         .      |\
    R    o      | \
   /     |      | |
  <-----------v-+-L        >>>----Arrow---->
        u A     | |
         |      | /
         |      |/
       /----\   (     

The string never passes the Set point o.

But I digress...
This type of discussion does already exist in Archery notes (Without
the breast part). I will take it there (without the breast part).
    
    Cindi
    

Cindi, wow, I'm impressed!  Such talent!

D!

Lorna and Joyce, we have a *lot* to talk about when I get there! ;*) liesl

    re .90, I can hardly wait! :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    may I join you ? ;-)