Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Hi D!, Did you have any tests, or are you suspecting infertility based
only on your irregular periods?

If it's any consolation, a long-time friend of mine recently
got pregnant (after only a week or two after deciding she and her
husband wanted to have a baby!). She's never had a regular period,
and often has gone two to four months between them.....

Kathy

    D!
    
    there are a lot of notes on fertility in parenting....
    
    check out that file, I'll go get the adress, and add
    it for a title here.
    Bonnie

    D!,

    	I went through this exact same thing last summer/fall.  But I
    took it a step further and my gyn did some tests.  Then I was
    referred to an endocrinologist and had a bunch more tests run.
    (I just wanted to be sure there wasn't anything *seriously* wrong
    with me!)  Bottom line was that there are LOTS of women with 
    irregular cycles who aren't necessarily infertile.  Just because you 
    may not ovulate regularly doesn't mean you can't get pregnant.  (In 
    fact, I was strongly cautioned that if I didn't want to get pregnant 
    to be sure and use birth control.)

    	I was also told that if I did want to get pregnant, that there
    was a good chance I would be able to do so (not that I'm really
    worried about this! :^) ).  So the choice isn't taken away, though
    it may be harder for me than the average woman.

    	I don't know why your doctor equated irregularity with
    infertility without doing further tests - seems like a pretty wide
    jump to me.

    	If you want to talk about this and feelings and all, let me
    know.  I can certainly relate to what you're going through...

    Hugs,

    Amy

re: 10.750 (in "The HUG Note") by -d binder

>    Hugs for D! who has found that she may be infertile.  As much as it
>    hurts, D!, it doesn't make you less of a person.
    
I wanted to bring this back here because I wanted to discuss my reaction
to this.

First of all, -d, I understand you were being sympathetic and supportive, and
I appreciate the thought and the hugs, I really do.  This is *not* a flame
and I am not upset at you...

Nevertheless, your note did push a button with me.

My first reaction was: "Less of a person?  Of *course* not.  Why would it?
Why did he bring that up?"  The thought that being infertile would make me
less of a person never crossed my mind. I had lots of thoughts about
infertility - that I wouldn't be able to have a baby, that my (potential)
partner might be disappointed, that I shouldn't care because I am a Lesbian
anyway - a hundred thoughts.  But being less of a person wasn't one of them.

It is hard to explain why a statement assuring me that something *isn't* true
makes me feel as insulted as if you had said it *was* true.  I'm not even
sure why...the best I can do is draw an analogy.  If you were to walk up to
a fat person who was not at all upset abour hir weight and say "Don't worry,
I don't think being fat makes you ugly", s/he would probably be insulted and
say "Who said it would???"  

I'm not sure, I guess it just makes me feel icky and, well, condescended to
to have a concept as ugly as that (that being infertile might make me less of
a person) presented to me, even in a negative fashion (ie:that it isn't true.)

Anyway, -d, I appreciate the concern, I just wanted to explain my feelings about
the specific words you chose...

D!

    D!
    
    for a lot of women who despirately want to have babies, being told
    that they are infertile makes them feel like less of a person.
    
    I'm really glad that it doesn' do that for you.
    
    Bonnie

    D!
    
    I read your basenote, and decided that your feeling were inchoate
    ("I didn't really want to know", "I'm still not sure how I am reacting
    to this news."  "[I]t is [a]ffecting me more than I thought it would."
    "[I]t feels very different to think that ..."), but that you might
    feel somehow... lessened by being infertile.  (It is a common, and
    socially-re�nforced idea, as was just pointed out.)  It looks like
    someone else noticed the same things I did.
    
    							Ann B.

I understand that, which is why I was not *angry*.

However, I would in general caution people who are offering support to
others not to project their own feelings onto the one they are supporting.
Give sympathy for the things that the person has themselves said are
problems, rather than introducing new things that you *anticipate* might
be a problem for them.

D!

    D!, I'd follow the advice of your own p-name on this one.  I've heard
    the same thing from doctors, as have several other women I know.  One
    of them had been told all her life that she probably wouldn't be able
    to have children, but wanted them desperately, so she made that the #1
    priority in her life, and rearranged everything else around it.  As it
    turned out, she had no problem conceiving.

    Doctors have tended to tell me this in the same breath with things like
    "if you have at least one baby before thirty, studies have shown that
    there may be a protective effect against breast cancer."  Collectively,
    I take these two statements to mean "hurry up and start trying, or don't
    blame me."

    Like Amy, I've noticed that these same doctors are *not* eager that I
    put any trust in their hypothesis by not using birth control.  So I've
    tended to chock it up to the societal bias that "women are incomplete
    without children".  One doctor even went so far as to suggest that even
    though I didn't want a child then, I should go ahead and have one ASAP
    "just in case", because I might change my mind later and find out I
    couldn't, and anyway if I had it before 30... (I changed doctors).

    Sure, there may be a *tendency* for women who have irregular periods to 
    be infertile, or less fertile.  But I think the doctors are making a 
    mistake in trying to translate it to *my specific life*, especially 
    since to my knowledge, there is *no* family history of difficulty in 
    conceiving (quite the opposite, if anything).  (Although, to be honest,
    I know of no family history of irregular periods, either.  However,
    there's a lot less physical evidence around, and I don't know there's
    *not*.  In fact, one of my great grandmothers had so many children there
    is widespread speculation that she probably had very few periods at all.)

    This information has not changed my life at all - I can't say I want
    kids right now, so why should it?  However, I did use it to my advantage
    to get a pesky relative off the "when are you going to get married and
    have kids" beat.  (Try this: get all teary eyed, tell your aunt how 
    much you love children, and then tell her what the doctor said... :-) )

        Sharon 

>(Try this: get all teary eyed, tell your aunt how 
>    much you love children, and then tell her what the doctor said... :-) )

I love it!! :-)

Anyway, my doctor (who I just met for the first time yesterday) didn't
*seem* like the "have babies or you are useless" type. Quite the opposite,
in fact.  When she said she thought I was probably infertile, she seemed
like she was saying it was no big deal.  (Of course, this was *after* I
had told her I was a Lesbian - maybe she was assuming that I would never bear
kids anyway and so it didn't matter?)

A number of people have written me to tell me not to write off the possibility
of being fertile so quickly.  Now I'm confused.  The doctor said that it was
true that sometimes women with irregular periods were still fertile, but that
the *vast* majority of the time if the periods were over 45 days, then they
weren't.  How common is it for a woman with long cycles (like, 3 or 4 months)
to be fertile?

D!

[Actually the doc was concerned when I told her it had been 6 months since my
last period - she gave me some progesterone to trigger it. I haven't started
taking the pills yet - I guess I should but I kinda *like* not having a period
and I am in no hurry to force mine to come.]

    
    Womannotes-V1
    100 - in vitro fertilization
    187 - panic attacks, infertility, epilepsy
    253 - infertility
    719 - infertility support group
    
    Womannotes-V2
    387 - infertility: alternatives to the alternatives
    1069 - infertility tests
    
    Womannotes-V3 (this file)
    89 - infertility tests
    
    Parenting_v2
    165 - help on IVF or GIFT
    310 - infertility frustrations
    1245 - infertility anyone?
    1319 - secondary infertility
    1340 - infertility counseling in NH
    1703 - NCG shots and secondary infertility
    
    Parenting_V3
    39 - drugs for infertility
    105 - fertility/infertility questions
    510 - NH resolve/infertility support group
    
    Medical
    314 - Infertility
    432 - Infertility specialist?
    
    Mennotes
    353 - secondary infertility
    
    

    I don't know anything about infertility (or fertility for that matter)
    since I've never wanted kids.  But I do think I understand a little of
    what you're feeling.  The sense that some possibility may be denied
    you.  That's a very powerful and scary feeling for me.  I have Carpal
    Tunnel Syndrome.  When it's acting up, like it is now, I every now
    and then just feel really SAD for the future things that MAY be denied
    me.  I don't know if it will ever get really bad, just like you don't
    KNOW that you are infertile.  But there's that chance that you might
    want to do something and not be able to.
    
    I've been thinking a lot about this kind of thing with reference to
    my hands.  I'm an engineer and a potter.  I get terrified when I
    think that someday I may not be able to throw clay anymore, or type
    at the terminal.  I imagine that some of the same things are going
    through your head now.  Not that you KNOW you'll want kids, but that
    if you do decide to have them, that CHOICE may be denied you.  Lack
    of choice always scares the pants off me.
    
    My thoughts are with you D! and I hope that you can come to terms with
    your feelings.
    
    Karen.

re: .4 (D-bang)

> It is hard to explain why a statement assuring me that something *isn't* true
> makes me feel as insulted as if you had said it *was* true.  

	I've been through a training session on how to deal with 
	the news media.  Rule #1 is:

                 -----------------------------------
		"_Never_ repeat a negative assertion."
                 -----------------------------------

	For example, if you were to be asked, 

		media:  "Are all feminists baby-killers?"
	
	You should **NOT** respond,

		feminist:  "No, feminists are not baby-killers."

	Because 1) denying an assertion lends credit to it
		2) you will be quoted out of context

	Remember Richard Nixon's  "I am not a crook!"  ?

	
	You should return to your "home base" of what you want
	the public to know as a result of your interview.  For
	example, you could answer:

		feminist:  Many of the women you see here are
			   parents who love their children but hope
			   to maintain reproductive freedoms for other
			   women, including poor women.


	D!, when I read that "hug", I thought [uh-oh] for the 
	same reason you did.  I didn't recall that you had thought
	of yourself as being less than a person because of a 
	potential fertility problem, but that the comment might 
	plant that seed of doubt in your mind. 

						nancy b.

    I was in college when my Gyn first told me that my problem
    would not be accidentally getting pregnant... My problem
    would be getting pregnant once I wanted to.
    
    I took it, I guess, as well as you can.
    I told my then boyfriend, now husband what was said.
    
    He is an optimist, so he just said:
    "Do not worry, when we want to we will."
    
    I guess we will just have to go with the tide.  There are
    however, many minority children who are in need of parents.
    I imagine, that should I never be able to have one of my own,
    I will be able to adopt.
    
    I was always afraid of the pain of birth anyway.
    
    I understand the basenoters original position though.
    
    I sometimes find myself questioning... What will I do if we
    can not conceive... but then ... I figure ... we could have 
    a lot of fun trying... and I will worry about it later,
    if we ever get the $100,000 it would cost to rais a kid
    through college today.
    
    Cindi

just a tiny word of warning, take if it applies to you...

one of the times I am an aunt, is because the woman was told she could never
get pregnant.  I don't know the details of her medical condition, but I gather
that extremely irregular menstruation was part of it.  So she never did birth
control, and was 28 when she conceived.

my neice is very cute.  Looks a lot like my mom, which is nice, since neither
I nor any of my siblings do!

    Re : .14 
    
    Ren has been trying to tell me that for some time now.
    
    Doubly reinforced...
    
    It applies.  I will take it to heart.
    
    Cindi

    to add to .10.   
    
    Check parenting_v3 note 828.
    
    Debby

    Still another case - my daughter has had extremely irregular and
    abnormal periods since the onset of puberty.  When she started talking
    seriously about marriage with Rick, she asked me to accompany her to
    the doctor to talk about future pregnancy.  This was *very* important
    to her, as she has always wanted children.  
    
    The doctor told here that they would run some tests now, and that,
    while she might have some trouble getting pregnant, that she should
    still be able to have children with the correct treatment.  Okay...
    
    After they took the blood, etc for the basic tests, we left, and they
    were to call us with the results, and to arrange for the rest of the 
    tests.  Well, the rest of the tests were unnecessary!  One of the first
    tests was a pregnancy test...  My grandson was born seven months later,
    *and she had been on BC at the time of conception*!!!!
    
    We have since decided that all she has to do is be downwind of him! 
    Actually, BOTH of them were supposed to have fertility problems, they 
    were originally both worried!  They now have 3 beautiful children, with
    the youngest born just last Friday (8-} another girl (8-}  Personally, 
    I think the doctors don't know half as much as they would like us to 
    think!  
    
    Linda