Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    -d
    
    I've begun to notice the same thing myself, as a straight, that
    due to the education I've gotten here and in another file, I can
    start to pick out people that I can tell are lesbian or gay.
    It was a revelation to me, I felt proud of my increased sensitivity,
    and I told my college senior son about this and he told me I 
    was homophobic.
    
    sigh
    
    so I dunno
    
    Bonnie

    G'Day,
    
    	I think that most straight people have some sort of gaydar and also
    the opposite (gayshield???).   I can't say that I'm all that good at
    picking lesbians unless they are wearing the 'uniform' and generally
    doing what lesbians do :-) but I have a much greater ability at picking
    out gay men.  As to the gayshield, I'm fairly sure that most straight
    people carry on in such a way that gay people can tell that they are
    straight and should therefore not try to make any advances etc.
    
    	Re: .1  Bonnie, I'd hardly say it was homophobic just because you
    have the ability to tell what preference somebody has.  If you had this
    ability and then went on to harrass them or intentionally avoid them
    then that would be homophobic.
    
    David.
     

    Dunno if it counts as 'gaydar' but certain segments of any group
    seem to conform to archtypes and tend to be obvious. Put another
    way, if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck and waddles like
    a duck, you can usually (95% confidence level ;-) ) assume it _is_
    a duck. It's the ducks who act like robins that throw ya.
    
    Dana

    ~robin,
    
    but sometimes I'm 'picking up' on people for other reasons than
    appearance, that was what I meant by my note.
    
    bj

    
    �It's the ducks who act like robins that throw ya.
            
    sure that's not robins who act like ducks, dana? (-;
    
    on the subject ...
    
      i think that it's possible for some straight people to have what is
    commonly refered to as gaydar... to a certain degree.
    
      i think that a percentage of lesbigays gaydar is based on
    stereotypical appearance. i think this is the part that straight folks
    can share, depending on their sensitivity.
    
      i think there is another dynamic to gaydar that isn't necessarily set
    off by appearance.  i don't believe that this dynamic can be shared by
    straight folks.
    
      so my answer to this question is, sometimes.
    
    ~robin
    
    p.s.  i think numbers make a difference also. re.0, you mentioned you
        were in a concert setting. while it was your impression that the
        10% value wasn't present, some visible quantity was.
    
        for instance... say there is a national lesbian conference in
    atlanta, ga. that draws 3,000 participants.  3,000 lesbians is most
    definately not 10% of the population of atlanta.  the strength of those
    numbers made their visibility quite apparent to ALOT of straight folks.
    both sensitive and non-sensitive. (-;

    
    ooop's! sorry, bonnie.  i had another thought i wanted to include.

    I, also, think that I can usually tell if someone is gay or Lesbian. 
    Well, maybe I should say that if I think someone is gay or Lesbian they
    usually turn out to be, but there may be people that I think are
    straight who are really gay or Lesbian and I don't pick up on it
    because they are so different from the stereotype.
    
    I think I can especially tell if attractive men are gay because
    I think they act different towards me than straight men do.  I feel
    like I can pick-up on the fact that they are not attracted to women, in
    general.  I think it's both because of this file and because I've spent
    so much time in Provincetown.
    
    There was one time when I guessed wrong about a guy, though, and I was
    surprised.  Last year I was in Annapolis, Maryland, and I went into an
    antique jewelry store.  The owner was an extremely cute young guy in
    his twenties, who was also very, very nice to talk to.  We got into a
    conversation and he showed me a lot of jewelry, and in the course of
    the converstion I found out that he loves cats, and antiques, and I was
    positive that he was gay.  I mean, I didn't think there *were* any
    straight men, that good looking, who would be that nice and who would
    also love antique jewelry and cats!!  Then, much to my surprise, when I
    went back into the store later on that day, he introduced a woman
    working in their as his *wife*!!!!  I was stunned and jealous!  I
    wanted to say to her, "Where did you find this man?  He's worth his
    weight in gold!  My god, a straight man who loves antique jewelry and
    cats and has a really sweet personality and is cute to boot!!"  My god,
    I didn't think such creatures existed!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .5, sometimes there is a dynamic between straight men and straight
    women and I can tell when it's missing.  (and this dynamic doesn't
    always mean that the two are attracted either-it can be subtle but I
    think people who are really into checking out the opposite sex are
    tuned into it)
    
    Lorna
    

        re .0,
        
>>					It wasn't a matter of dress, or at
>>    least many of them weren't wearing the "uniform" - but I knew.  I
>>    picked up on subconscious cues, and I just knew.  At least I believe I
>>    did.
        
        But if you didn't ask, how can you be sure?
        
        Dan

	Years ago, I went with a female friend into a boutique where
	she had to pick up something, or drop something off.  I waited
	at the counter while she dealt with a salesperson in another
	part of the store.

	I noticed the cash register attendant at the counter was a rather 
	striking blonde.

	My friend finished her transaction and we left.  I mentioned
	the cash register attendant:  "The girl at the cash register
	was rather dramatic....but something bothers me about her..."

	"Well, your instincts are certainly good!" my friend said.
	"She's a he."

	I really don't know what was not there.  Certainly "she" was
	very striking and feminine at first glance.  Something was
	just 'different'.

	Steve H

Why do you ask the lesbians in the group know if non-gays can have gaydar?  
You'd have to ask straight people if they have it, I think.  
And on an individual basis, asking for confirmation about a gaydar-ee 
from a gay/lesbian person might make sense. 

Anyway, I have enough trouble figuring out if my own gaydar is right.
Especially visiting different places -- 'clues' in one culture don't mean a
thing, or not the same thing, in another.  Makes it tricky.

(I've also found it doesn't matter that much, but it could be that
living in the bay area I feel more integrated into the whole, and
so it's not important to pick out fellow club members.  Chances are
the people I deal with will be gay or gay-positive, and I'd just as soon
assume they are even if I hit one that's not.)

	MKV

    Would someone be so kind as to explain what *gaydar* means....I went so
    far as to look it up in Websters dictionary and couldn't find it...
    
    thanks
    ellie

    I imagine it is an indicator or "radar" that goes of when a lesbigay
    person is seen or interacted with.
    Cindi

    .5
    
    I agree totally..
    
    .8
    
    Their is a strong dynamic between lesbigays also, and I'm not talking
    about stereotypes, and I believe that's why we call it gaydar...
    
    Heidi
    
    

    Lorna,
    
    This isn't a flame, but just because a man is married doesn't
    mean he isn't gay, or more appropriately, bisexual.  Your
    experience just reinforces that we shouldn't assume anything about
    anyone.
    
    I think that gaydar really is about stereotypes, but if
    it's possible that stereotypes can be viewed as positive, then
    that's how I mean it.  When I identify someone else as gay,
    it's based on appearance and/or behavior, but sometimes it's
    as subtle as a glance held a fraction of a second longer
    than usual.  It's certainly possible for non-gays to develop
    a heightened level of awareness of gay people, but it probably
    takes some effort, such as Bonnie's learning from the lesbigay
    conferences.  I'm sure a lot of non-gays can identify the most
    obvious stereotypes, but even that's  not fool-proof, for gays
    and non-gays alike. I've known some "masculine-looking" women and
    "feminine-looking" men who were not gay.  Since the cards aren't all 
    in as to whether homosexuality is genetic, environmental or a 
    combination of both, then it's *possible* that there is some genetic 
    basis for some of the "stereotypical" behavior and appearance (body
    types, not just clothing) of *some* lesbians and gay men, but there 
    are always exceptions to any rule.  (How's that for a qualified statement?)
    
    Richard

    re .16, I know that just because a man is married doesn't mean he isn't
    gay or bi and I immediately wondered that about the guy in Annapolis. 
    He wasn't the least bit feminine looking or acting either.  He was
    adorable, both in personality and looks, and it does *seem* as though
    there are a high percentage of gay men in the antique business. (I'm
    often quite attracted to gay men and have sometimes found it
    frustrating!)
    
    But, Richard, you're right, there *are* exceptions to every rule.  My
    friend, Roger, who is an antique dealer (not gay) has two close friends
    (antique dealers) who are a gay couple.  One of these guys is extremely
    slovenly, poorly dressed, etc., yuck!  (After I met him I said to
    Roger, "Well, I guess all gay aren't goodlooking huh?" and he said, 
    "Yeah, no kidding.")
    
    re .15, Heidi, Did you ever work in YWO, in Wesboro, Mass.?
    
    Lorna
    

    -1 
    
    yep, why??
    
    Heidi

    re .18, oh, I just thought I recognized the name and wondered if you
    were the same person.  You probably don't remember me because I don't
    think we actually ever met.  I was the secretary who sat right by the
    back door of the building - the door most people used that you had to
    have a key card to get in.  So, sitting there I got to see everybody in
    the building parade by sooner or later. :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    

    oh....
    
    I used to work in the Model Shop by the back door.  That was 10 years
    ago.  Unfortunately I don't remember too many folks, with exception of
    the ones who went to SHR when I did....
    
    Heidi
    

    yes, it has been said that my "gaydar" is pretty well tuned.  but it
    does get surprised on occasion, where nothing really registed clearly
    to begin with. 
    
    but then i also have been accused of sensing too much information in
    the world!  

    Well, I guess so...I mean I don't just go around saying, "Gee, I wonder
    if he/she is gay?" to me, it doesn't really matter (I know that's not
    the issue, but the point is, it doesn't really cross my mind to think
    about what someones sexual preference is, that's all). There are times
    tho, that it's pretty clear.
    
    I have a friend that for no particularly blatant reason, I think is
    gay. My boyfriend has known him since they were children. When I men-
    tioned it to Dave, he thought about it (for the first time) & came up
    w/ reasons to believe that it could be (but not necessarilly) true (his
    choice of friends, places he goes, lack of interest in women, etc).
    maybe he is, maybe he's not, but it's just something I *felt*, I dunno
    how else to 'splain it!
    
    I have a friend who's gay, she told me during a regular gab session
    one day. I knew it. She's not (as SHE calls it) a "diesel dike" by
    any means. She wears dresses, heels, goes out to boogie w/ the girls,
    & dances w/ the guys when they ask (If they're nice enough). She prob-
    ably even sits by, while people who don't know she's gay, crack jokes
    & bash les/bi/gays.....<sigh>
    
    I guess I have gaydar....I used to think using my gaydar was
    homophobia, tho.....that was before I knew this file.
    
    Bonnie

    GAYDAR:
    
    1 part stereotypes....but let's face it...some people *are*
    flamethrowers...I like the term "Born to Royalty"
    
    1 part intuition...this isn't a tangible thing, but since I believe
    that we all have at least *some* same sex impulses, it is something
    that everyone can tap into even if they don't really understand it. 
    It's the flash in the back of your head that makes you have to ask for
    the person's name again because you were too busy thinking, "Oh, he's
    gay" the first time.
    
    1 part wishful thinking...*sigh*
    
    I think the next sexual revolution ought to be to get everyone to be bi
    but that's just my *BI*as...
    
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