Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    IT'S PRUDES who are offended by it.  I had never seen it until I was an
    adult and quickly got used to it.
    
    ed

I never breast feed my child in public - in direct view that is.. Many times
I fed my daughter in the car at a highway rest stop. I was minding my
own bussiness and no one seemed to notice. And its' true, there's not
much to offend, in my opinion. Those folks offended - why did they keep looking?

hmph...

you are right about the "not much to see" part

I've done it, and would again if (all gods forbid!) I was to have another child.

You attract far less attention unobtrusively nursing a quiet baby than
you do holding a hungry screaming wriggling baby.  Trust me on this one.

Sara

    My granddaughter Canaan was nursed by her mom, Holly throughout the
    most of her baptismal service last Thursday. It definitely kept her
    quiet! I thought it was really special for her mom to feed her right
    up until the minister was prepared to bless her.
    
    I'm really surprised that people find nursing a child objectionable
    in this day and age.
    
    Bonnie

    I am always amazed that people take offense when a breast is used
    for its real purpose.
    
    I think I told this already in =wn= but, a customer complained to
    a restauranteur in Boston that another customer was breastfeeding
    at a corner table.  It was a family restaurant.  The owner and his
    wife bawled out the complaining customer and spent quite a while
    at the womna's table goo gooing at the baby.  Owner's wife said
    it was indeed a family restaurant and feeding is what families do.
    
    I remember going to a college hockey game and seeing women in the
    ladies room sitting on the floor to nurse.  I complained to the
    field house manager.  Next game, there were chairs in the ladies
    room and a sort of screen and a sign saying baby area.  There was
    also a sturdy table.  Turns out the field house manager was a new
    father.  

    I am offended by people who are offended by women who breastfeed in
    public.  I have breastfed mine in public on numerous occasions, and I
    dare say most never even knew it.  My belief is that our particular
    social norms have it that breasts are sexual, and ONLY sexual, objects,
    to be used during the sex act, and not to be displayed but for that
    intention.  Thus most American men's ABSOLUTE FIXATION with breasts. 
    So if a woman dares to handle, use, expose even in the minutest
    fashion, her breasts, even to feed her child, outside of the context of
    sex is to invite public censure.  I sometimes believe, in my more
    cynical moods, that a typical American male cannot view a breast,
    cannot even think about a breast, without becoming aroused.  What do
    men do on a nude beach, with bare breasts abounding, walk around in a
    state of perpetual arousal?
    
    Tell me I'm wrong, guys!
    

    	Why do females have MAMMALS for?????
    
    	FOR FEEEDING THEIR YOUNG..... YOUR NARROW-MINDED PUBLIC!	
    
    	Breasts have existed since the first days of creation, and now, we
    get offended because we use them doing the thing they were created for?
    
    Gosh, after that many thousands and thousands of years of existence we
    have developed very little.....
    
    I am a mother, have breast fed all my kids and would never have changed
    that for anything in the world!  We only need to use common courtesy
    and common sense to do it when needed.
    
    News like this only makes me laugh at our own stupidity...
    

    
    .7
    
    I agree, but I'm not sure Playboy & Co. sees it, or rather them, that
    way...and really, we wouldn't want to put a $10 billion/year business out
    of business, now would we?
    
    ;-)
    
    D.

oh no!  I can see it coming now!  the GOVERNMENT will be bailing out the porn
industry next!!!!  after all, they took over Mustang Ranch when it went
bankrupt...

    The only time I was offended by breastfeeding in public was many years
    ago when I pumped gas for a living. A man drove his car into the
    station. He told me to fill it up and please wash the window. While I
    was doing so, his wife rapped on the window and pointed to her chest,
    flip both of em out and started feeding the kid. She deliberately
    called my attention to what she was doing and became what I thought was
    vulgar by her actions. Hubby was in the men's room. She literally shook
    the free one at me and laughed and smiled at my embarasment. She
    quickly covered up. I didn't say anything when hubby came back as I
    felt she would deny it all. I will say the at 17, I was exceedingly
    turned on by the fact of naked breasts in my presence. Now, while I
    would notice and depending on the situation, might be aroused, I don't
    think feeding a child would be one of thoose arousal situations.
    
    BTW, I'm reading a collection of silly fantasy stories right now and
    one of the stories, written by a woman is called Savage Breasts. It is
    hilarious. A woman has her breasts enhanced to "toaster size" by The
    Charlene Atlas method and they take on a life of their own. They
    proceed to punch out any man who comes near them and do all the typing
    for the woman. It is really silly and full of various breast and bra
    jokes. Becausew a woman wrote it, (No man would ever dare:-)  ) I think
    that it's ok. It really pokes fun at all the myths. I'll remember the
    name of the author and the collection and post it tomorrow.
    
    Phil

...about that woman who Phil described in the first paragraph of .10... well it
just goes to show you that being an ***h*** is not linked to any gender.

    <just goes to show you ...>
    
    what a timely comment!

    re .11, maybe she was just in a playful mood. :-)  
    
    (I couldn't imagine having a breast big enough to "wave" at anyone!)
    
    I do think that nursing in public should be considered a normal thing
    to do.  (Not that I would ever do it, but I think that those who want
    to should be able to, and it certainly doesn't bother me if other women
    do.  For me, personally, breast feeding a baby struck me as a weird
    thing to do anyway, so I didn't do it.  Oddly enough, it didn't seem
    natural to me when my daughter was a baby.  But, I think it's natural
    for other women...just not me.)
    
    Lorna
    

    I felt that I should reply here... after reading all this
    controversy... I don't have much experience in breast feeding here in
    America, but in Europe it is widely known, of course, women wear
    nursing bras that are identical to a normal bra but has an opening to
    let the nipple out and feed the infant without unduly exposure, women
    wear blouses upen un in front, and... believe me, I see nothing wrong
    in feeding a baby when the time comes but women don't do it IN PUBLIC,
    in other words they are not EXHIBITIONISTS, but use their common sense
    to go to a secluded place, or not so secluded, just a place to seat
    confortably and feed, nothing has to be done, and when in company it is
    normal courtesy to just put a little kerchief or napking over and...
    that's it!  
    I was brought up very conservative, but was never reprimanded or told
    not to feed whenever my babies needed to be fed! Breastfeeding gives a
    mother and child such a bond, that cannot be replaced by bottles...
    You cann't believe what is to pick up a screaming baby and after
    keeping him/her at your breast for just 20 minutes it converts into the
    most beautiful, peaceful and sleepy cute little thing! and there's no
    bottles to warm up, no bottles to sterilyze, nothing to prepare...
    just a nice seat and few minutes for mother and child alone... or
    having a nice chat with friends, why not? it is great in trips, my
    kids had many pleasant "meals" in the car and many happy naps, and we
    had, hubby and I, many happy relaxed conversations while our little
    babies were being taken care of.
    
    Now "those babies" are grown and hopefully, they'll also breast feed
    their kids, they have the same intensity and love for babies as I do,
    so I won't be surprised if they breast feed too! I don't think they'll
    want to miss that.
    Regards, Ana
    

    G'Day,
    
    	The story I related appeared in the morning paper on Monday and it
    didn't take long for the 'Letters to the Editor' to start.  The first
    was yesterday and it basically said:-
    
    	"Everybody is saying that breastfeeding is natural and everybody
    believes that having sex is natural but we don't have sex in public do
    we!"
    
    	Well to that I could add that maybe SHE (it was from a female)
    doesn't have sex in public :-).  What a load of crap!  Obviously there
    are some natural things that can and some that can't (shouldn't) be
    done in public.  I hope to see some more letters, hopefully supportive
    of the cause.
    
    David.
      

    I don't object to breastfeeding in public. I do object to flaunting it
    or making a spectacle of yourself. The woman I described in my note was
    being lewd and crude. I don't know. Maybe she got off on it. At 17 I
    was excited. I won't say turned on, but I was excited.
    
    Women who breastfeed in public do it, hopefully, to nurture and feed
    their children. I have heard that it is a magnificent experience and
    some women have stated that there is a sexual thing to it as well, but
    I think( I can never know)they do it to feed their children. I am more
    offended by a child screaming because it is hungry, then by a mother's
    act of nurturing and love.
    
    Now I know this isn't in the string but I did say I would put in the
    author and book of the hilarious story I read. The book is called Smart
    Dragons, Foolish Elves. Edited by Alan Dean Foster. The book is full of
    hilarious tales of fantasy. If people like tales of people who discover
    mysterious "Shottle Bops" that appear and disappear, this is great.
    
    Now tha story that is only tangenitally relevan to this string is
    "Savage Breasts" by Nina Kiriki Hoffman. It is sidesplitting.
    
    Phil
    

    
    Please don't hang me for my reply here.  This subject has caused
    me to examine my feelings on this as 2 of my closest friends are
    expecting.  I wouldn't mind if either of them breast fed anywhere.
    However, if a Vitoria's Secret model, or a look-alike, sat in
    front of my husband in a public place breast-feeding her baby, I might 
    find myself a bit upset.  I know it's not fair.  It wouldn't be the
    woman's fault.  So she's gorgeous and her child is hungry.  She can't
    help it.  That breasts are thought of in mostly sexual terms is also
    not her fault.  Actually, I suppose the whole thing would affect me
    depending on my husband's reaction.
    
    This is the only case I can think of where breast-feeding would
    bother me and I suppose I'd have to be in the situation to know
    if I'd get mad at her or my husband.  I can also say that the
    way it sounds like women breast feed in Europe, I would have no
    problems.
    
    I am surprised that people would complain about something like this.
    I certainly think the laws should allow breast-feeding anywhere.
    In parallel with table manners, I'm sure some people follow breast-
    feeding rules of etiquette and some don't.
    
    Rachael

    
    Remember that .0 happened in Australia.  All the replies
    are from the US (one from UK?)  I'd be interested in what
    other Australians think on this, because the norms may
    be different over there.
    

    When I had a child, I fed her when the demand arose. Generally, the big
    clue as to what was going on was that no one could see her when she was
    nursing as I tossed the blanket over both her and my shoulder after
    getting her situated.
    
    No shame, just an easily distracted baby. If she could see the world,
    she'd look at it and slow down the process considerably ... 
    
    I do think it's the rare woman who purposely plants herself in front of
    somebody[s] to accomplish feeding her child.  It's the sort of activity
    more suited to being out of the general flow of traffic/activity.
    
    I had a couple complaints from people who realised what was going on;
    the only one I paid any mind to was my mother-in-law who literally
    threw up on my couch when she realised [after about 10 minutes]. [She's
    also the _first_ one to admit that her reaction is somewhat
    dysfunctional.]
    
      Annie
    

    
    Women who breastfeed in public do it, hopefully, to nurture and feed
    their children. I have heard that it is a magnificent experience and
    some women have stated that there is a sexual thing to it as well, but
    I think( I can never know)they do it to feed their children. I am more
    offended by a child screaming because it is hungry, then by a mother's
    act of nurturing and love.
 
It is wonderful, and there is a physical component as well as love and
nurturing the child. One of the better experiences in my life...

Nursing is one of the few parts of having an infant that I actually (still)
miss, and I have to say that I think that the objections to unobtrusive nursing
in public places are silly.
(That's about as innocuous an adjective as I can think of. I discarded several.)

When I nursed my babies, the LAST absolutely LAST thing on my mind, the furthest
thing from my purpose, was to arouse anybody's husband(*), or any of the male
variety of our species, to sexual interest.  In fact, in context of nursing an
infant I find (opinion alert!) sexual interest to be kind of repulsive.

Mind you, even in the privacy of my own home, alone in the house, I didn't strip
to the waist to nurse.  At home I might unbutton a blouse, but most often I'd
just lift the shirt just enough, and it would do most of the (*<blush!>*) 
concealing so necessary to the prevention of unwelcome attack.

The woman who flapped 'em at Phil (was it Phil?), she was a jerk imo.  But the
vast majority of women don't breastfeed an infant to titillate ANYBODY.  Most
especially strangers.

Sara

*including my own.  We played at other times, but not when I fed the baby!

    Sara, agreed. The only people with a problem here are those who
    disaprove. I don't mean here in the file, but here in general. The
    woman who flapped them at me was being a jerk. She also might have been
    promiscuous, or just liked to try to excite young men. (Boys really)
    
    I could tell you stories about some of the women I had to deal with at
    the gas station, but most are not meant for polite conversation. 
    
    Back to breastfeeding. As I stated before, the reason for it is to
    nourish the child and it does help to create a loving bond between
    mother and child. Like I said, nothing annoys me more then to be in a
    public place and have a kid screaming at the top of it's lungs.
    FFFFFFEEEEEEEEEEEEEDDDDDDD MMMMMEEEEEE. How the feeding is done is not
    relevant. I'm not going to notice. I will notice the quiet and be
    thankful for it.
    
    Phil

It is my understanding that Australian beaches are, for the most part
"top optional". (someone from there please correct me if I am wrong).
and if this is true as it is on many European beaches then why the fuss?

Amos

    G'Day,
    
>It is my understanding that Australian beaches are, for the most part
>"top optional". (someone from there please correct me if I am wrong).
>and if this is true as it is on many European beaches then why the fuss?
    
    Some of our (Sydney) beaches have areas for topless bathing but on most of
    the large public beaches you are generally required to wear a top.  If
    a woman decides to take hers off and nobody complains about then the
    beach inspectors will normally not say anything (they are not fools :-)
    I think that people have just got a bit used to seeing bare breasts on
    beaches so they don't react to it.  Don't ask me what the difference is
    or why one is tolerated more than the other.  If the people complaining
    about breastfeeding in public are doing so because of the persieved
    sexuality of it then IMHO they are wrong.  If I had the choice of
    looking at a woman's breast while she was feeding her child (the little
    you can see) or a nice pair of tanned and oiled breasts fully exposed
    on the beach well ..... I'm sure you get my drift.
    
    The only way we will ever get over this problem is when women
    themselves realize that there is nothing wrong with it and it becomes
    more and more common.  That will take the mystery and intrigue out of
    it and then nobody would even take any notice of it.
    
    David.
    

    If you visit any european beach in summer, including the Costa de Sol
    and Spain in general, you'll be able to pinpoint only those who 'wear'
    a top... the majority of women DON'T, and well after seeing so many,
    (of different shapes) in some many different age groups, all over, and
    that often, who cares? believe me, it is not exciting at all. So it is
    funny that we still find, in the 20th century, prudes who get offended
    at seeing a mother nursing a babie....                               

    
    - .1
    
    good point.

    Sorry for another "me too" note, but I wanted to comment on
    a question in the base note, and ask a question of my own.
    The base note asks if only men are offended by public
    breastfeeding, and I can answer a no to that.  A woman
    I know gets quite upset when she sees a feeding
    mother.  In my opinion, it comes from her own problems
    with children in general (what would you expect from someone
    who calls infants "rug rats").  Sigh...
    
    My question is that I wonder if anyone reading this string
    who *does* find public breastfeeding objectionable would
    say so?  (if there's a preceding note to that effect, I
    missed it, sorry).
    
    I would hope that the incident Phil described had more to do
    with embarrassing a naive 17 year old than breastfeeding.
    Sounds like that woman didn't really connect the display
    of her breasts with nursing.
    
    I can't think of too many things more natural than breastfeeding,
    but being a product of society, I found that I had to get over
    some embarrassment when friends fed their babies in front of
    me.  I was curious and wanted to watch, and I recognized it
    was *my* problem if I was embarrassed.  My friends never
    were, and they always appreciated the company while nursing,
    rather than being treated like a pariah and left alone
    as though they were doing something unnatural.
    
    Richard

    
    Okay: here goes.
    
    I've only seen breast-feeding once. I usually figure that being a
    youngest child, I missed out on seeing lots of things associated with
    toddlers, and it never surprises me when I feel uncomfortable about the
    things associated with babies. I figure if I have one, I'll get used to
    it all. (Well, maybe not the drooling and the diaper changing.)
    
    What I saw took me aback. I had to work pretty hard not to stare. And I
    was very embarrassed. I personally associate women's breasts with
    erotica, so I had to deal with that, too. Especially since this woman
    was very attractive and had enviably sized breasts. (Breast envy hits
    me on occasion, has since pre-teen days.)
    
    So, I can understand that people would react a bit to the situation.
    And I think its wise to be discreet about it, and do it in the
    bathroom. But I also think that if women did do it more often, it would
    become far more acceptable. The thing is, so many times society is not
    thrilled with babies, especially crying babies, it is not surprising
    that we don't often see the things associated with babies, like feeding
    them.

    I went to Quatemala once in about 1975.  There were women breastfeeding
    as if it was the most natural thing in the world.  I wasn't embarassed
    at all.  I've also seen women breastfeeding here in America, such as
    my sister-in-law, and I was a little embarassed by it.  The biggest
    difference for me was that my sister-in-law wasn't quite sure how her
    friends would take it, and I think that slight discomfort came through
    a bit.  And it's not common here.  We're (I'm) simply not used to it
    in people that I know.
    
    So I have to agree strongly with the prior replies that say if it 
    becomes more common we'll get used to it, and finally accept it as the
    perfectly natural thing that it is.
    
    Karen.

    My reaction was similar to Ren's.
    
    We were in an extremely crowded restaurant when one of the women I was
    with started breast-feeding. My reactions were
    1. Oh my God, they're gonna throw us out.
    2. Thank goodness x,y or z isn't here or he would've stared and it
    would've been most embarrasing. x,y and z being my male friends. [I
    wonder why I feel so responsible for how my male friends behave]
    
    In reality these thoughts passed very quickly and I carried a normal
    conversation throughout as though nothing had happenned.
    
    To whoever said that not much is visible. Both her breasts were very
    visible.
    
    manisha

    A few years ago there was an Indian postage stamp that had a picture of
    a woman breast-feeding. I suspect the govt. was trying to promote
    breastfeeding and undo the effect of nestle et al. Anyway my then
    roommate (American) was really surprised and said something about
    'You'd never see that in this country'. I couldn't figure out why
    because you couldn't see the women's breasts at all.  It was all
    covered by her sari.
    
    manisha

'ren, it's _amazing_ how quickly a person can learn to overlook the more, ah,
revolting aspects of various bodily fluids and solids that infants emit from 
various parts of their bodies! :-) who'd'a thunk it!  (Of course, your mileage
may vary; all I know is, I *never* *ever* well hardly ever, only with my cousin,
played with dolls, and was actively disinterested in babies. Till I had my own.)

manisha, there is no requirement to bare one's breasts to nurse, unless there is
a problem (cracked/dry skin, infections, etc can happen, and air-dry is a good
treatment).  Of course one *can* bare the breasts, and if one does not plan 
to wear the appropriate clothing it can be a problem.

various folk have said they were somewhat embarrassed, and were wont to stare.
Well, so am I!  I do miss nursing, and have to remind myself not to watch as it
may embarrass the mom.  And generally, I don't expect that people will feel 
absolutely comfortable with even unobtrusive nursing in public -- I'm aware of
reality.  But I won't make myself or my baby uncomfortable about it either.

Sara

Almost left this as the tail end of the previous reply, but it deserves its own.

Let me also say here that the point of all this is a happy healthy baby and mom,
and that if a mom chooses not to nurse, but to bottle-feed instead, then that is
SUPER.  Her baby will thrive and grow and be every bit as appealing and fun and
heartwrenching and trouble and work as any breastfed baby will be.

I have heard of women feeling pressured to nurse, and away from bottles.  I'll
say it loud:

Mothers Should Feed Their Babies The Way That Works And Feels Right For Them!

Sara

    One thing I forgot to mention is that one of my friends who is
    breastfeeding attends a support group, because breastfeeding
    is *not* the "norm."  There is also incredible pressure to
    stop breastfeeding once a child reaches a certain age, often
    as young as 6 months.  Another friend of mine continued to nurse 
    her child (occasionally) until age 5.  At the time, I thought
    it strange, but the child is now 12 and is very well-adjusted
    (I presume the pressure to wean a child is based on the
    idea that if it isn't weaned soon enough, it may be suffer 
    emotionally later.  To me, the opposite seems more likely, that
    weaning too soon could cause insecurity.  But I'm not an
    expert on the subject, by any means).
    
    Richard

    I've heard breastfeeding for a VERY long time helps reduce the child's
    potential development of allergies.  I'm not sure this is true, but if
    I ever did decide to have children I'd SERIOUSLY look into it. 
    Particularly with my allergically-botched genetic structure.
    
    -Jody
    

nursing does often help to prevent the development of allergies ->in susceptible
children<-.  One (but only one) of the factors in the development of the rotten
relationship betw my neice and her mom is that the baby was allergic to cows'
milk, both protein and sugar, and no one knew why the baby was so fussy

There was even an article in Science News a week or 2 ago describing some
research that alleges that up to half of colic in babies is caused by allergy to
dairy, in formula and/or nursing (see below).

But even nursing does not confer absolute protection against allergies.  Some
allergins pass through the milk to the baby anyway (dairy products do).  And
another of my neices is allergic to wheat, dairy, eggs, citrus, and other
things commonly eaten by humans; she had horrible excema (sp); this even though
her mother is a fanatic vegetarian and nursed her for well over a year.

On the other hand, if cows'-milk-based formula turns out to be a problem, there
are other formulas available.

It pays to be flexible when trying to raise kids!  :-)

    re .35, Sara, as a mother who chose *not* to nurse, thank you, for
    entering that note.  I get sick of hearing people rave on and on about
    how preferable it is to nurse.  It is a choice which a woman should be
    able to make for herself.
    
    I chose not to nurse because the thought of having another human being
    actually feeding off of my body makes me feel trapped and
    claustrophobic.  It made motherhood seem just too tied-down.  I don't
    want any other human being to need my presence that much.  It may sound
    weird but the thought of it makes me stir-crazy.  I had to know that, at
    any time I wanted to, I could leave the baby and the similac with my
    husband, or my mother and take off.  Not that I ever did it that much
    until I went back to work when she was 5 months old, but I had to
    *know* I could.
    
    I will also add that my mother didn't breastfeed me (because apparently 
    back when I was born doctors didn't let C-section mothers breastfeed) and my
    daughter didn't, and yet my mother, my daughter and I all love each
    other just as much, and seem to have just as much of a bond, as any
    other parent/child combinations I've run across.
    
    So, I think that people should breastfeed if they want to, and that
    it should be acceptable to do it in public, but claims that it causes
    more love, more bonding, etc., are irrelevant, as well as  insulting 
    to those didn't choose to breastfeed.
    
    BTW, Jody, Melissa doesn't have any allergies that I know of, and
    neither do I, so not breastfeeding is not a guarantee of being allergic
    to a lot of stuff.
    
    Lorna
    

    re.39
    
    Actually, Lorna, my mother-in-law [she who threw up on my couch upon
    realising that I was feeding my daughter] expressed similar feelings of
    being trapped.
    
    Her main objection was couched more in terms of 'humans shouldn't be
    parasites' and was deep gut level.  Her pregnancies were emotional hell
    [but willingly entered into for the sake of having children].
    
    I can respect this stance without the need for empathy.  Personally, I
    wouldn't _rave_ about the experience.  I found it convenient and
    emminently practical.
    
    re. Jodie
    
    I was breast-fed and I have Allergies_from_Hell.  My allergist says I'm
    an anomaly.  I think I need a new allergist ...

    Weaning from breast-feeding is one of those "it's all in how you do it"
    things.  When my son was in grade school, one of his classmates was
    significantly undersized and weak.  Turned out that his mother had
    breast-fed him *exclusively* until about age 4.  She had some serious
    emotional problems during that period and simply didn't recognize that
    the child was no longer an infant.  But it permanently stunted his
    growth.
    
    I found that I was unable to breast feed my son when he was born.  He
    wouldn't "latch on" or suck hard enough to get any nutrition, and my
    milk dried up.  At the time, this wasn't a big emotional problem, as
    bottle feeding was more the norm anyway, and worked well for us.  My
    sisters have had their children in the last five years, and I have
    found that the pressure on them to breast feed in order to be "good
    mothers" is pretty intense.  I firmly believe that my youngest sister
    would have been better off emotionally to bottle-feed, but she wouldn't
    even listen to the *idea* that there might be positives to that method
    because of pressure from her (IMHO) brain-dead pedi.  (Lots of issues
    for me there, primarily that the pedi felt that moms had no needs which
    needed to be met, only babies did.  No sense of helping *balance* three
    sets of needs [mom, dad, and baby] in raising an infant.)
    
    Sorry, brought up some old tapes with the direction this topic was going.
    
    Alison

    A child can breast feed as a toddler and get other sources of
    food as well. Past nine months they don't get the iron they need
    in breast milk and need other foods. But nursing can continue
    for quite a time after that.
    
    It is possible btw to mix breast and bottle if started early enough.
    Holly is breastfeeding Canaan (my granddaughter) but when ever she
    isn't around, sometimes for a whole weekend when Michael (our son
    and her father), they feed her formula. The idea that it has to
    be exclusive or you lose your milk doesn't seem to be the case.
    (Tho when I was bottle feeding Canaan she kept trying to nurse
    at my breast, I had to tell her that it has been 21 years since
    there was any 'juice' there. ;-) ).
    
    Bonnie

    
    
    
    My 2 cents,
    
    I believe that breast milk is the best for babies - there is no
    doubt about it. I also believe that the formulas nowadays are
    good alternatives. I breastfed both kids until I went back to work
    (for about 6 week). If I didn't work I'd breastfeed them all the
    way. I haven't breastfed in public, but I don't think it's offensive
    or erotic. If I had to worry about my husband's reaction to nursing
    mothers then I'd find another husband. ;-) I mean, my husband plays
    tennis at this athletic club on a regular basis and boy, some of 
    these young women have the nicest bodies, in leotards (they work out 
    everyday for hours), I would go crazy worrying my husband everyday...
    I also think that even if my husband finds watching a nursing
    mother exciting doesn't mean that he'll love me less or he'll
    have an affair with that woman - I believe that my husband is
    a mature and trustworthy human being...
    
    
    Eva

Lorna, you're welcome.  I entered that note for the express reason of defusing
the pressure women feel to breastfeed.

The women's movement should be about CHOICE, broadening the choices for women,
and btw for men too (tho that may not be the main focus), and not about
compelling behavior, however inadvertantly.  This mini-, nay, pico-issue is an
example.  In my zeal about nursing, in my memories of enjoyment of it, in my
listing of the benefits it confers, I found myself succumbing to the temptation
to (at best) ignore the _fact_ that the purpose is healthy happy baby and mom,
and that a woman's path to that goal may be different from mine.  I also know
from past experience, tho in quite another area of life entirely, that very
strong endorsement of one way can inadvertantly devalue the other ways.

Sara

    thanks Sara

    About 4 years ago I broke my ankle and my sister was driving me in for
    my doctors appointments - Ill never forget the day - we were sitting in
    the waiting room waiting for my appointment.  I was on one side of my
    sister, and older man in his 60's sat across from her, and a woman
    (40ish) sat on the other side of my sister.  My nephew was only about 3
    months old and needed feeding - my sister put a baby blanket over her
    shoulder covering her breast - put the baby's head under and preceeded
    to breastfeed her baby.  The woman sitting beside her got up and moved
    to another seat - in disgust.  YOU COULDNT SEE ANYTHING!  The older man
    moved his seat also, but he sat next to my sister (who was almost in
    tears) and told her what a beautiful thing she was doing for her baby,
    that it was what God gave women breasts for and that any woman who felt
    any different should be ashamed of themselves - he said this loud
    enough so that the other woman could hear him....
    
    Maureen
    

whats more offensive -- A mother feeding an infant, or some guy
takin a whiz on the road side ?

No one complains publicly about the latter...

People are toads.

    RE:.27 and "men going topless"  One of Paul Harvey's "Rest of the
    Story" segments has to do with 45 [more or less] topless bathers being
    arrested for public nudity on the beach at Atlantic City.  The bathers
    were male and the year was in the 30's.
    
    ed

    
    
    
    
    Honest reply, 'ren.                                         
                                                                           
    I have heard negative comments about breastfeeding from a number of
    women, no men. Maybe a man just would be more reluctant to comment.
    I have breastfed in public only when necessary and never while exposed.
    I haf a women, a sister of a friend, ask me how I could do such a
    thing. Strang thing was that that woman and her sister were guests in 
    my home and there were no men around. I also had to feed to silence a
    screaming meamie at the home of another female friend. The mother who
    was in her 50's told me what a beautiful sight it was and her 20
    something daughter turned her head in embarrassment and she was
    pregnant at the time. She never did breastfeed her wither of her
    daughters. She just said it felt funny. 
    
    It's certainly not sad to have a note about breastfeeding...but it
    certainly a bit disheartening to hear that there are so many people
    in this world who don't appreciate and understand the beauty of breast-
    feeding-if not for them, for others.
    
    Kate
    
    

    Brastfeeding or breastfeeding in public?
    
    Does it matter?
    
    Mother nature has equipped you females with this tool to feed our
    babies. What's more natural?
    
    If you like to breastfeed (in general or in public) is your personal
    choise, but what you like, is a result of how your'e brought up,
    values, selfesteem etc.)
    
    Prsonally I think it's a signal of "something wrong" if we (majority)
    find nature untaural, offending, or whatever you like to call it.
    
    
    PerS,
    

    
    I think .50 has a good point.
    
    I don't exactly know when bottle feeding started to become popular,
    maybe in the 50's or 60's?? I think women that were bottlefed may
    find breastfeeding uncomfortable and they probably don't get a
    whole lot of support from their mothers. I was bottledfed, but my
    mother nursed my two older siblings and she was a big support for me.
    
    I have to admit that breastfeeding, no matter how natural, is not
    that easy at the beginning - I mean, it can hurt like h*ll when the
    milk starts to come in or when there are cracks in the nipples.  
    If there are nobody to support the mother emotionally, I can see
    why she'd give it up.
    
    I also think that society put too much attention on the breasts, I mean,
    it seems like a good set of breasts is an asset (like having high IQ). 
    I've heard some myths that breastfeeding ruin the breasts. I, for one, 
    believe that if anything ruins the figure, it's pregnancy not breast
    feeding. 
                                                                   
    Eva

    Eva,

    Bottle feeding started to become popular long before the
    50's and 60's.... the push goes back well into the 1920s and
    earlier when children were dying of gastro intestinal problems
    (why doesn't spell check or my dictionary help me spell daiha,
    diaha...what ever it is? sigh)... breast feeding was regarded
    as some how 'dirty' or 'animal like' etc..

    My mother breast fed my two sisters and I (in the mid 40s and
    early 50s) with *great* difficulty and a lot of opprobrium.
    
    Bonnie

    My mother breast fed all eight of her children, and I still remember
    how calmly and naturally she did it, as if it were the most natural
    thing in the world to do.  Perhaps that's why it seemed so natural to
    me to do it when my children were born.
    
    But It has been considered a "low-class" way to feed your child in the
    past.  Only the lower classes had to breast feed, because they couldnt'
    afford the formula.  In fact, it was the lower classes who hired
    themselves out as "wet nurses" to the upper classes, to feed their
    newborns for them.  So there is a great deal of history attached to
    breastfeeding, and a certain status also.  Fortunately, it has changed
    to an acceptable and worthwhile method for any "class" to feed its
    children.
    
    I also think that public disapproval of the act of breastfeeding is
    simple sexism.  In it's most blatant interpretation, it's the male
    world's way of asserting ownership of not just the female, but the
    female's breasts as male property.
    

    Well, I dunno.  I find it totally shocking that a mother would feed
    her child, especially in public.  After all, babies drool a lot, and
    that can be unpleasant to watch.  Better to starve them until they learn
    to stop drooling.  Any feeding in the meantime - and there is evidence
    that a lot of parents cheat on this one (look at how many toddlers
    *still* drool!) - should be done strictly surreptitiously.

    People who object to mothers breastfeeding in public on any other
    grounds are probably doing so on the basis that "you shouldn't be eating
    anything around other people without offering them some".  I'm
    concerned about these people - expecting polished manners from a person
    who still *drools* in public.  They probably feel than in trying to
    impose manners on the infant ("you should offer others some, dear"),
    they'd make the mother uncomfortable.  And yet, how many bottles of
    formula do you think they've asked for?

    Oh yeah, I forgot.  They can just buy their own, go into a dark closet,
    and surreptitiously drink formula while drooling to their heart's
    content.  You gotta wonder, huh? :-)

         Sharon

    re .51, Eva, I definitely agree that a good set of breasts is
    considered just as much of an asset as a high IQ, and heaven help the
    woman who doesn't have either!!!   
    
    re seeing people breastfeed, I was 21 (it was 1971) the first time
    I ever saw a woman breastfeed a baby.  It was when I went to vist
    my girlfriend in Ten Sleep, Wyoming, and it was her sister-in-law.
    I wasn't shocked or disgusted.  My reaction was more one interest and
    curiosity.  But, afterwards, a teenage boy who was with us for some
    reason (must've been a relative of my girlfriend), turned to me and
    said, "Oh, my God, I was embarrassed I could've died!  I didn't know
    what to do!  I didn't know if I should get up and leave or what!  I was
    trying not to look at her!"  (It just so happened that the woman breast
    feeding was in her early 20's and stunningly pretty.)  Something in our
    society had to make that kid feel so embarrassed.  I just told him,
    "Hey, she didn't seem to mind.  Don't worry about it.  She knew you
    were there."
    
    I think prevalent attitude towards breastfeeding is another prudish
    thing left over from the early Puritan morality in the U.S.  The U.S.
    is supposed to be more prudish than the rest of the world in a lot of
    things, isn't it?  I've never traveld but that's what I've always heard
    and read. :-)  Things like nude beaches, sex on TV, etc., that seem to
    be common in some places but tabu in the U.S.
    
    Lorna
    

<set_everything_women_do_is_sexual_and_thus_evil_unless_men_control_it_on>


	I can't think of anything worse
	Than watching a new mother nurse
	Her baby; egad!
	Milk's almost as bad
	As that other oozing, "the curse."


<set_women_hidden>

>    I think prevalent attitude towards breastfeeding is another prudish
>    thing left over from the early Puritan morality in the U.S.

Except that the basenote described an incident that happened in 
Australia.  Apparantly we aren't the only ones who backwards puritanish
ideas.

D!

    re .57, I think the U.S., Australia & Canada seem to be similar in many
    ways, from what I hear.  (early settlers from UK, etc.)
    
    Lorna
    

    I think breastfeeding is great and I don't object to it in public.
    My mother would have breastfed me all the way if she had had enough
    milk.
    
    One possible reason for objections to public breastfeeding might be
    simple uncomfortableness with public display of humanness or our basic
    mammal-animal nature.  We frown on public urination (though it's a
    natural function), passing gas (though it's a natural function), eating
    with your mouth open, scratching in public, yawning without covering
    your mouth, belching, you name it.  I personally have a hard time
    blowing my nose in front of other people.  Being reminded that we are
    animals closely related to other mammals may be hard for some people.
    Seeing someone raise up a top to have an infant suckle off their body
    might touch on a lot of basic unspoken taboos about how much we will 
    admit we are animals with a social veneer.
    
    Pam

Re: .56

Am I allowed to admit that I find breastfeeding a baby in public sweet and
not particularly sexual?

> <set_women_hidden>

Set 'em hidden yourself. I decline. You are what you believe...

	-- Charles

    G'Day,
    
    	I heard on the radio yesterday afternoon that the people who
    organised the rally at the Opera House are now organising one in
    Canberra (the capital city of Australia).  Most of these rally type
    things take place on the steps of Parliment House so there will
    probably be a few red faced polititions in the ACT soon.  I will post
    any more information and details of the outcome as they come to hand.
    
    David.
    

    re:.61:  But, if they do it on a weekend, there'll be (almost) nobody
    in town, certainly not any politicians...
    
    ed

    
    Re.  56.
    
    Yes!  IMHO, of course.
    
    When I was pregnant, the full hypocrisy of the "motherhood myth" finally
    hit me.  Here, I was doing the thing that was as good as apple pie, yet
    why did I feel like I should *hide* the fact of my pregnancy as long as
    possible?  Why did I feel ugly and fat?  And why, relevant to this
    discussion, did I feel like I had to hide when I breastfed?
    
    To breastfeed or nor SHOULD be a personal choice, but having made the
    choice, a woman's breasts belong to her, and neither a male nor a
    female who has bought into the myth of breasts as exclusively sexual has any
    real right to complain.
    
    IMHO !!  This hit a hot button in my idealistic, and frequently naive
    mind.
    
     
    right to should
    protest.  

    
    
    Whoops!  I was agreeing w/ .56, although .53 is along my lines of
    thought too.

    
    ...what happens to the 'breasts are sexual & only sexual' view, if you've 
    had one, or both, removed?
    
    D.

    what happens is that, the woman with that sort view of breasts
    
    	feels greatly diminished 
    	feels incapable of giving love
    	feels incapable of being loved
    	feels worthless
    	feels incomplete
    	feels terribly frightened
    	feels very angry
    
				.
    				.
       				.    
    

>    ...what happens to the 'breasts are sexual & only sexual' view, if you've 
>    had one, or both, removed?

Why, obviously it means that the woman is no longer (or at least less)
of a sexual being.

Less of a nurturer, too, since breasts are for feeding young, ie; nurturing.

And since women are only good for nurturing and sex, obviously women with
masectomies are less of people.

D!

    I don't understand the sarcasm.
    
    Our answers are accurate. 
    (pretty gd unpleasant, a sad commentary on our culture)
    
    but accurate
    

don't look now, but I think the last 3 replies were in agreement.  shhhhhh.

    argh!  I agree too that that is how they're perceived or how they
    perceive themselves sometimes and it's sad.  We Are More Than The Sum
    Of Our Bodily Parts, DAMNIT.
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  if anybody would has had a mastectomy would like to respond but
    would prefer to do so anonymously, the mods will gladly post for them.

    Once during a conversation about breastfeeding I mentioned that I
    hadn't and a guy said, "Well, I can see why."  I said, "What do you
    mean?" He said, "Well, they're not really big enough are they?"  I
    said, "F*c* You, *S*hole!" in a meaningful voice.
    
    I hope people who think comments like that are funny will burn in hell
    someday.
    
    Lorna
    

maybe we need a new topic, snappy comebacks to sexist remarks that show
both ignorance and idiocy.  What a jerk, Lorna, I don't flash fury at much
anymore but that remark did it. 

    re .71
    good shot!
    

    well, -d:
    you make a good point. And perhaps the equinimity(whew!) reflected by
    such magnanimity(whew!!) or -vice versa :-) is the better policy in any
    case?
    
    
    
    				herb

    
    Suppose she'd said something comparable about why he didn't have kids?
    
    D.

>A request for information should always be honored gracefully - the
>only stupid question is the one an ignorant person is/was unwilling
>to ask.

Baloney!

Who says we "should" do anything?

There are lots of times a "request for information" is entirely
inappopriate and should be discouraged.

Just ask Ms. Manners.  All the time she gets letters from readers
asking how they should respond to such rude questions as "Are you
pregnant or have you just been gaining weight?", "who's the father 
of the child?", "why aren't you married?", "why aren't you in school",
and, yes, "why didn't you nurse your child?"

Yes, it is true that "stupid" questions are often the result of
ignorance - ignorance of the subject matter and *also* ignorance of
common courtesy.  Even if I believed that breast size really did have
to do with milk production, *saying* so is incredibly tacky.  I mean,
do I really think the woman hasn't *noticed* she has small breasts?
Do I really think she hasn't gotten sh!t from a hundred different
places about it already?

Some questions are out of line.

MYOB.

D!

    
    Of course, maybe she should have realized he could have *small* kids.
    
    D.

    one of the limitations of notes is the 'mystery' of some of the
    intentions
    in re .76 ...
    one can't be sure whether the author is
        proposing a sort of 'tit for tat' 
        bantering
    	being deliberately opaque
    	being unavoidably opaque
    	has a fetish for speaking elliptically
    	snarling 
        can only be ambiguously hostile?    
        something else
    

    Made my day Tuesday to overhear one traditional-looking male say to
    another, while walking down the hall in HLO, "So, is your wife
    nursing?"  I'd say the shift back to breastfeeding has made it a whole
    lot more acceptable to a lot of folks.  
    
    My own breastfeeding experience over the last four months has confirmed
    this.  I think it helps other people that I'm so comfortable doing it
    anytime, anywhere.  And before my son was born I swore I wouldn't feel
    at ease breasfeeding in front of strangers.  Half of the time people
    think he's just sleeping in my arms.  He does get that completely
    peaceful look about him.  I've only had a couple instances in public
    when someone stared longer than was polite or was looking right at me
    while I hiked up my shirt.  These cases I attribute to ignorance rather
    than lechery or disgust.  If anyone has been bothered by my
    breastfeeding I haven't noticed...and I wouldn't have stopped if I
    *had*.  Although I am aware of my increased vulnerability when I'm not
    with another adult.  I am extra careful when sitting in the car in
    parking lots, for example.
    
    No one's mentioned how much some babies like breastfeeding.  My son
    still prefers it (we both do!) even tho he gets formula during the day. 
    I feel it's healthier all around as long as I enjoy it and I have an
    ample suppley of milk.  And the nurturing is wonderful.  Some nights 
    it's the only way he'll go to sleep.
    
    Nancy   

    re .80
    
    I took it as Dorian's way of saying to Larry how if the shoe were on
    the other foot, the average male would probably react with indignance
    and anger instead of understanding and patience toward someone ignorant.
    
    The fact is, such a question - either "can you nurse with such small
    breasts" or "can you sire children with such a small penis" - is going
    to insult the person its directed at, whether done out of malice or sheer
    stupidity.

re .80

Tit for Tat? In a breastfeeding note? 


<snicker> <giggle> <guffaw>

    re .78 D! & .82 'ren, exactly.  The guy who made the comment was trying
    to tease me about being flat-chested, but having large breasts is too 
    much of an advantage in our society for me to find it very funny.  I've
    had too many guys make negative comments to me along that line and I'm
    tired of trying to be good-natured about it.  
    
    Humorously enough, I once had a male co-worker confide to me that he
    "knew" how I felt about being flat-chested because he was much smaller
    than average in a certain area himself.  I was someone taken aback by
    the confession and said something like, "Oh! Really? Huh?  Well, my
    goodness!"  (I didn't think it was a completely accurate comparison,
    though, because I would have had no idea how big his penis was if he
    hadn't chosen to verbally share the knowledge, but it's pretty obvious
    to the entire world, even when I'm walking around fully clothed, that
    I'm not "well-endowed".)
    
    Lorna
    

Civilized?

Of *course*.

Miss Manners always says that the best reply is one that is strictly
courteous, but at the same time is pointed enough to discourage future
questions along the same vein.

But I still say (and so does Miss Manners) that courtesy and etiquette
do *not* dictate that one must answer any questions one doesn't want to.

D!

    
    Is there such a thing as Snappy Comeback Envy?
    
    D.

    
    -d,
    
    It might be that the question (are your breasts big enough?) really
    wasn't (intended to be) sexist, but what feels sexist about it to me
    is that he felt *entitled* to ask that question.  He felt entitled to
    let a woman know what he thought of her breasts (a woman to whom, I'm
    assuming, he wasn't very close).  I doubt that a woman (or a man) would
    cross that same boundary with a man.  
    
    Reminds me of 6th grade when a boy in my class asked me (in front of a
    male teacher), "Do you wear an over the shoulder boulder holder?"  The
    boy (and the teacher!) laughed.  I felt embarrassed.  Of course, I can
    forgive the 6th grade boy (and even the teacher - I've laughed at
    shocking things kids say even when I know I shouldn't), but what's the
    man in Lorna's story's excuse?  What made him feel so entitled to let
    her know what he thought of her body?  If the question was only about
    how big do your breasts have to be to breast feed, I think he would
    have asked the question in a different way (umm...  this is something I
    was always wondering about, I mean, um, do you have to have large
    breasts to be able to breast feed?) or of someone else long ago (like
    a high school biology teacher!)
    
    Justine

     re .86
    
    How would you respond if someone saw that you had a very small penis,
    say less than 3 inches erect, and said that it made sense that you had
    no children, considering how small your penis is?
    
    Or even if it was posed as a question, i.e. I always figured that
    penises less than 3" meant that the man couldn't sire children, right?
    
    
    I'm trying to understand whether you'd be able to restrain your anger
    enough to treat such remarks as ignorance, and react as a teacher. Or
    even politely come back with a "I think you'd do better to research
    that in a medical journal than to ask me." type response.

    Wouldn't it depend on who asked (how close a friend), and what tone
    they used when they asked??
     

    Okay, (.91) let me direct it at you.
    
    If ANYONE looked at you, and a physical/sexual aspect of you that was
    unusually diminuitive, one that you'd been picked on about or sensitive
    about all your life, and remarked that they always assumed that
    something that small couldn't perform its typical function, how would
    you react?
    
    Would you be upset/angry? (I would be) Would you try to temper your
    anger? In all situations? Some situations? Which situations?
                

    If the person asking me were asking because they *really* didn't know
    the answer, I'd kindly answer them--and I wouldn't be insulted.
    
    I certainly have physical aspects about myself that I am sensitive about,
    but how the hell can I expect others to know what really bothers me,
    especially if they don't know me?  How can they avoid asking me about
    only the things I am sensitive about, if they don't even know what
    those things are?
    
    As for my really close friends (and they know who they are), they can
    (and do) ask me anything.  So far they've been careful about *how* they
    ask me, and my feelings haven't been hurt.  And if they did ask me
    something that really hurt, I'd tell them it hurt, and I'd even go as
    far as to talk to them about *why* it hurts.  Who knows, maybe they 
    would make it easier for me to live with things I don't like about me.
    
    If a stranger blasted me with a question, with the intention of hurting
    my feelings (and somehow did), that's another story.  Sure would end
    any chances of being friends, wouldn't it?  (Who needs friends like
    that?)
    
    But not all questions posed to me, regarding things I am sensitive 
    about, would send me flying.
    
    -jc
    
    
    

    
    I asked someone something the other day and got told it was none of my
    business. I was very polite about asking, so I was very politely
    refused.
    
    On the other hand, I refered to someone's height once, and asked a
    question VERY innocently, and got my head chewed off. It was a hot
    button. In talking to others I was told that I was asking for trouble
    if I didn't tread lightly in discussing someone's anatomy or physical
    structure.
    
    jc - perhaps you're not one to get easily ruffled. I know I'm not that
    way. But as to your question, how can you know not to ask about
    something sensitive, I really think that in general, only close friends
    should discuss anatomy. I think that's the best way to be safe. I
    usually only make my apologies about biting someone's head off after
    having chewed on it a bit. 
    
    I really think that when you say anything about a person's physical
    attributes, you're asking for trouble.

    re .90, 'ren, that is *really* funny! :-)  I wish I had said, "I think
    you'd do better to research that in a medical journal than ask me."  If
    it ever happens to me again, do you mind if I say it? :-)  (That is, of
    course, unless Nancy B. has inspired me to be a gun owner by then.  In
    that case, he's dead meat.) :-)   *Only kidding, folks!* :-)
    
    re the incident in general, I didn't know the guy very well and he was
    obviously trying to "get my goat."  Some background information on me
    is that when I was a kid and into early teens I was very shy and used
    to get teased a lot.  For a long time, I was too scared of other people
    to defend myself whenever anybody said anything mean to me.  But, the
    older I got, the less scared I got, and also the less I got teased or
    picked-on, but I still had the memories.  Even after I stopped getting
    teased very much, for a long time I was too shy and nice and sweet to
    ever say anything harsh back no matter how anybody treated me.  Running
    along parallel to this was the fact that I realized in my teens that I
    was never going to be well-endowed and that it was apparently going to
    be a draw-back.  As Justine mentioned, for some reason I'll never
    fathom, a lot of men and even women seem to think they have a right to
    comment about the appearance of women's breasts - whether they're
    too big, just right, too small, etc, etc.  What makes them fair game? 
    It's disgusting, and I got sick of it.  It's amazing how many times in
    my life men I've hardly known, and even women, have teased me about
    being flatchested.  It doesn't happen much anymore though.  Maybe it's
    because I'm older.  Maybe it's because I'm not quite as shy, or quite
    as nice as I used to be either.  I think it was very rude for a man I
    hardly knew to comment on my breasts, and as far as I'm concerned I
    think he's lucky I didn't spit in his face, or throw something at him. 
    Besides, I think he even *enjoyed* that I yelled at him.  He wasn't
    *hurt*!  He laughed.  He thought the entire incident was funny. 
    Anyway, I got pushed around for too long in my life because I was small
    and shy and female, and I got sick of it.  Now if somebody bothers me I
    tell them to go to hell.
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,

    I really understand where you are coming frmo. With my training
    in Biology and having been a nursing mom, I'd probably have said
    something cold, like..... "Breast size has no effect what so
    ever on ability to nurse".

    But I really do understand how you feel about male remarks about
    body shape, having been small busted and not athletic and 
    also over weight for part or all of my life. 

    I *hate* it when men dismiss any woman because of her lack of
    particular physical attributes. Today, I simply dismiss such
    boors in my mind as immature.... but when I was younger and 
    single.... that sort of thing *hurt*.... reminds me of a young
    woman who is a friend of mine, who told me about how the boys
    at her college (2 years ago) would hold up signs as the women
    came into the cafe, rating them on a scale of 1 to 10.

    I think I'd have stopped eating rather than face that.

    Bonnie

    -.1
    
    You can't rate 'em on that, silly.  It's the motion in the ocean, not
    the size of the wave...  ;-)

    .94
    
    I'm with you.  From an early age, my mother always told me if I didn't
    have something good to say about someone, I should keep my mouth shut. 
    And asking a personal question to someone I don't know very well can
    identify a hot button neither of us cares to know about/be reminded of.
    
    Did you ever notice if you say something bad about someone that's not
    around it gets back to them?  Try paying them a compliment when they're
    not around--it hardly ever gets back to them.  >sigh<
    
    -jc

    Re: .98
    
    Sorry, -jc, but you seem to have missed my point.  Since the majority
    of boy-men well-endowed means bigger, both in bra size and in jockstrap
    size, the point of rating them in reverse (1=huge, 10=tiny) is to
    convey the idea that they're full of sh*t.  Which the boys in question
    certainly were.  :-)
    
    -d

    re:.97
    
    But we already do that.
                              L.J.

    re: snappy comebacks
    
    There's the ever-popular, all-purpose "Excuse me, but I think
    you've confused me with someone who gives a [expletive deleted]."
    
    I think Lorna's was fine.  ;-)
    
    Richard

    bigger ... in jockstrap
    
    whence the expression 
    "hung like a horse"

    Please forgive if this has been mentioned before. Not enough time to
    go through 103 replies.
    
    I've heard that breast feeding is beneficial to the mother in that
    it helps the uterus shrink back to size.  Beneficial to the baby 
    in the stuff that comes out before the milk comes in (I don't do
    technical terms well).
    
    I've seen breast feeding in public and all I ever saw were two
    tiny feet sticking out from under a blanket.
    
    Linda
    

> I've heard that breast feeding is beneficial to the mother in that
> it helps the uterus shrink back to size.  

Yep. Nipple stimulation causes the release of a hormone called "oxytocin" which
causes uterine contractions. A synthetic version (pitocin) is used to induce
labor. Sometimes nipple stimulation is recommended in an unproductive labor to
try to move things along (results are reportedly mixed.)

> Beneficial to the baby in the stuff that comes out before the milk comes in

Yep, that's called "colostrum" and while it appears thin and watery is actually
exactly what a newborn needs - it's good at replacing lost fluids, and it
doesn't have a lot of nutrients to challenge the digestive system. It's rich
in minerals, but especially it's rich in maternal antibodies, which helps the
baby fight infections until it's underdeveloped immune system can catch up.
Breastmilk also contains important antibodies that formula doesn't.

> (I don't do technical terms well).

I do. You're welcome, it was my pleasure.
    
	-- Charles the relatively new father

    Gerber has just solved the "problem" of breast feeding in public.  
    Yesterday I saw a new commercial for Gerber Baby Formual.  In that
    commercial was a mother breast feeding her baby.  Yes folks, 
    ** ON TV **.  That is about as public as you can get.  The jist of
    the commercial was that Gerber Baby Formual was as good as Mom.
    
    Now if some woman is asked to leave a restaurant, all she has to
    say is that if breast feeding can be shown on TV, the she can feed
    her child in a restaurant.
    
    Thanks to .105 for the technical names.
    
    Linda
    

    How coincidental, I saw that commercial this weekend, and
    was going to enter a note about it.
    
    I *think* the tagline for the formula was something to the
    effect that "for mothers who can't nurse, Gerber Baby
    Formula is as good as Mom", something like that.  It
    was pro-nursing, I thought.  I was impressed.
    
    Richard

from note 791.30, but directed to folks in general:    
<    And I think its wise to be discreet about it, and do it in the
<    bathroom. 

How many times have *you* ever wanted to eat in a public restroom?

I don't think this is the place for women to breastfeed.  I think they should
do it wherever it is clean and they are comfortable.  If we want these women
out of sight, let's build feeding rooms in our malls, restaurants, theatres,
etc.
         Carol

    I saw a couple of women breastfeeding last Sunday at the From All Walks
    of Life walk.  
    
    WHAT'S THE BIG DEAL???  I couldn't see one square centimeter of these
    women's breasts anyway!  The tops of their breasts were covered with
    their shirts and the bottom half was covered by the baby!
    
    Kiwis in a bucket, folks, what's the problem?
    
    D!

    Maybe someone's already touched on this; but, breasts' first and most
    important function--the reason they were created--is to provide food.
    
    How can that be obscene?
    
    I think the number of people who are 'outraged' by public breastfeeding
    indicates how our society has twisted the role of women, sexuality.
    They, IMHO, have lost touch with the natural order of life, the big
    picture.
    
    Maia
    

    Just a thought. Some of the people I've heard objecting to public
    breastfeeding are *not* talking about obscenity, or the sight of a
    bare breast. They find it to be something intimate, which, along with
    several other intimate acts I could name, are generally not done in
    public. Doesn't mean they think it's wrong, just - um, something that
    "induces vague unease". (Personally, I'd much rather share a subway car
    with a breastfeeding mother than with a pair of can't-keep-their-hands-
    off-each-other sex fiends, but that's one of my own little
    uneasements.)
    
    -b

    My 17-year-old son recently commented to me that an acquaintance of his
    was breast-feeding her son at a youth-group gathering.  I braced myself,
    expecting the worst in terms of raunchy references or typical teen
    hormone-induced observations.  But he surprised and delighted me by
    saying how "great" he thought it was that she's using nature's method
    rather than "man-made formulae that are full of chemicals," and about
    how much the baby seemed to enjoy it.  All in all, David exhibited more
    maturity and understanding than many of the people alluded to in this
    string.
    
    Could his reaction be a result of deeply buried memories of his own
    contentment at the breast?
    
    Karen 

        
    I read somewhere that mothers' breast milk was used in pre-Christian
    ceremonies of baptism; I think it said they squirted their infants with
    it. There's a ballad in the Child canon that explicitly states that
    Christ was *not* baptised in milk.
    
    D.

Re: .112

Karen,

It's not his childhood memories. It's the way he was brought up.

Bruce

    Re .109, D!
    
    >Kiwis in a bucket, folks, what's the problem?
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    
    :)  :)  :)
    aq
    

 

         From the editorial page of Friday's Atlanta Constitution

    "" In Birmingham,Ala., at the library,there is an exibit whose works
   follow mother-child relationships from pregnancy through early child-
   hood development.  Library authorities have  removed  six pieces from
   the exhibition. They showed breast feeding. "Dirty," you know.
      Do you suppose we will ever be mature enough,sound and wise enough,
   to look on pictures of  starving children  as  obscene and of healthy
   babies contentedly breast-feeding as glorious? ""


     (of course,,all the right-thinking folks fown heahh *know* that
      the Atlanta newspapers are "just a bunch of LIBERALS out to
      destroy good old American values")


 Doug_who_has_been_read-only_....up to now                               

    G'Day,
    
    	If the baby had been drinking Coke it would have been put at the
    top of the display!
    
    	For those who think that sounds a little obscure, Atlanta is the
    location of Coca Cola's worldwide head office.
    
    David.
   

    
    did they actually say that it was "dirty", or is that just your 
    spin?

.116 looks to have been a quoted copy of the article,  and "dirty" was part of
that article, not spun in by the noter.

     
     Please note that this was an *EDITORIAL* in the local paper,
    and,yes,the editorial did use "Dirty".
     (I have no idea what term(s) the Birmingham folks used in de-
    ciding to censor the exhibit)
    
     Doug_(who_hopes_the_newspaper_will_adhere_to_its_stated_ideas_of_what's
    dirty-vs-beatiful) 

    Tim and I went to see "King Lear" at the A.R.T. in Cambridge last
    week.  Afterwards, he made a remark that stuck in my head:
    
    "The one thing that I never expected was that one of the major
    characters� would disrobe *completely* onstage.  I was hoping at
    least for a G-string!"
    
    It was a surprise (as was the presense of Christopher Lloyd as
    Oswald), not mentioned in the one television review I saw.  I don't
    subscribe to any newspapers; does anyone know if this was mentioned
    in any print review?
    
    						Ann B.
    
    � Edgar, Gloucester's legitimate son.

    Went out to dinner on Saturday evening with a couple who have a 3 month
    old daughter.  She began to fuss so Mom sorta rearranged her tee shirt
    and began to nurse the baby.  Mom and I sat on the inside of the booth,
    our spousal units sat on the outside.  Mom and I talked a bit about the
    nursing.  Jim (my husband) wanted to know why we were discussing it,
    and then and only then realized what was happening.  
    
    The waitrons never noticed as far as we could tell but they sure went
    ape over the kid, she's super cute (huge cheeks!!), and was very quiet. 
    Probably quiet largely because all her needs were being met.
    
       Margaret

    re .122, I wish somebody had breastfed the baby who was screaming it's
    head off in the restaurant I was eating in Saturday evening! :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    

    I remember the first time I saw a breast-feeding mother.  The woman
    I was about to baby sit for popped out the faucet and started feeding
    the kid.  At 13 I was vaguely embarrassed because I had no idea of
    the proper ettiquette for the situation.  Should I look away?
    Leave the room? What?  I went around the corner to the other room
    for a while to play with one of the other kids.
    
    Now I am a member of the nursing mothers group I envy mothers who
    can pop out a bottle and feed their kid anywhere, including the middle
    of a mall.  When I go out shopping and the baby starts to fuss, I 
    stop whatever I am doing and start heading to one of the nicer 
    stores that has a separate sitting room off the restroom.  I always
    thought these rooms were for women to sit and gab or fix their
    make-up and never paid them much attention.  Now I treasure them.
    In some places all I can find is a handicap stall (which will fit
    the stroller).  It is not pleasant feeding your child in a restroom.
    
    I am not at all a prude.  I've been to nude beaches and have no
    problem baring it all in public.  I hide myself because of others
    discomfort.  I did try the blanket-over-the-shoulder routine, but
    in the 90-degree F heat she breaks out in a rash and she must
    be terribly uncomfortable.  Plus she usually flails the blanket
    away at some point.  I've given up on that and just lift my shirt
    (T-shirts show less than button-ups).
    
    I'm quite willing to be part of a movement to make the public more
    comfortable so I can be more comfortable.  However I am not quite brave
    enough to be a movement of one.  Anyone want to join me and nurse
    discretely in the Food Court at the Pheasant Lane Mall (down the road
    from "Spitbrook, New Hampshire")?    
    
    I admire the women in .0 who joined to confront society and the Opera
    House in particular. 
    
    			Barbara b.
    			(catching up on =wn= while out on maternity leave)

    Barbara, if this is of any help... I've seen a woman breast-feed her
    baby in the friendly's in Pheasant lane mall.
    
    manisha

    Barbara,
    
    Try cotton broadcloth ponchos while the weather is hot.  You can cut
    them out old table cloths or buy the fabric if you are handier at
    sewing than I am.  You may look a little 60ish, but it will afford you
    modesty if you feel you need it.  Feeding my child in a bathroom ugh! 
    I would rather let people stare, but that is me, and I haven't really
    learned a lot of tolerance for people who don't know how babies are
    fed.  (I nursed both of my kids until they wer 2 1/2 on in the early
    70's and one in the late 80's.)  The only time I have broken down and
    used the bathroom was for my pump, and that because it is different
    than feeding a child who is right there.  
    
    Meg, whose mother also nursed wherever she needed to in the 40's, and
    50's.

    
    Barbera - 
    
    another idea is dressing rooms.  They nearly always have a bench or a
    chair.  And they are *much* more pleasant than a restroom cubicle.
    
    Better yet, just do it wherever.  If you do it out east, I'll make a
    pact to start a 'movement' out here when the occasion arises again. 
    
    Jamd

I'll join the pact too.  That's what I did when my daughter was nursing
and I got much less flak about it than I expected.  Usually my answer
to the disapprovers was "This is something that's good for me and my baby.  
I'm sorry it makes you uncomfortable and your feelings about it are 
yours to deal with."

Nanci

    Meanwhile, here in Babylon on the Bay, giant closeups of a suckling
    infant (with the motto "Stop Hunger Now") are on better busstop
    shelters everywhere.
    
    Ray