Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    
    
    
    
    
Dear Anon,
    
    My view...it may sound a little harsh....
    
                                            
>Well I still care a great deal for him but I no longer am in love with him 
    
    *If* you are no longer in love with him then you should break off
    the relationship and end the expectation that you two have a long
    term future together. Period.
    Regardless of whether you have an "alternative man" or not.
    
 >   but I can't break it off because I feel so bad about him being sick.  
    
    You certainly *can* break it off. Him being sick is not your fault,
    and it is certainly not a reason for retaining a commitment to
    someone you don't love. His family will look after him anyway.
                                                                
 > We are like soulmates and even though it's been a short time,
>I love him deeply.  I want to be with him all the time.  I am so torn by
>all this that I can't eat, sleep or work or even think straight. 
    
    *If * this is love for you then go for it!
    I must confess that, reading the above list of symptoms, it sounds
    like the early stages of "love madness" and, whilst this is
    wonderful, it doesn't last (thank God!) and I personally always
    find it difficult in this period to tell if it's "true love" or not.
    
 >    Please, don't get the idea that I am that materialistic.  
    
    Hey - it's up to you what your relationship priorities are.
    If money is an important consideration for you, then consider it.
    Just don't let it cloud your feelings, or confuse it with "love".
    
    I would suggest that you take a break away from both of them
    for a week (or, even better, two weeks). Go away somewhere you've
    always wanted to visit. Don't make/take phone calls from either
    guy - or if you must limit them to one a week each.
    
    Then think about *your* value hierarchy for relationships. What is
    it that you really value in a partner? You can do this by asking
    yourself what you need, and you may say "Being loved". Then
    ask yourself "OK - what does "being loved" mean?" and it may mean 
    "security" to you...
    ....and so on until you get a list of key words. Then rank
    them 1-10.
    Eventually, try looking at your prospective partners against your
    list of values, and see what that tells you....
    
    'gail
    
    
    
    

    
    re. 0
    
    Here's what I'd do -
    Take some time off (the relationships) like Gail suggested and
    ask myself some questions.
    
    	- what is my goal in a long term relationship?
    	  (Marriage, children, companionship, financial stability, etc)
    	- whom can I get these things from, realistically?
    	- what do they expect from me?
          (a wife, children, traditional values, etc)
    	- what are the trade off/sacrifices?
    	  (Life expectancy, finances, illness, etc)
    	
    I think marriage/long term relationship takes a LOT more effort
    to build and keep than just being madly in love. I believe that 
    if someone doesn't "love" another person anymore, the relationship 
    should be terminated in a clean cut matter - life goes on; and it's 
    only fair for the other person to know the truth. 
    One more thing - this is my opinion only - I would never get into
    a relationship with anyone while he is still legally married, no
    matter what the excuses are. I think it is an insult to his wife
    and an insult to me. There is no reason for me to believe that 
    such a guy will not do that to me if I marry him.
    
    
    Eva

    You said you fell madly in love and wanted to spend "the rest of your 
    life with" him, only to see that it did not last even 10 years...
    
    You just met another "soulmate" and feel as in love as before...
    
    I think it is infatuation, not real love! I truly believe that 
    real love lasts a lot more than a mere "few years" and sickness will
    not "kill it" real love live through all, good years and bad ones as
    well, but sadly enough, infatuation won't take strain or longevity.
    
    Have you heard of the saying... When in doubt, wait a few years and
    you'll have the answer?  Well, you have the answer...
    

    To a lesser extent, I have recently had a similar experience. And I
    disagree with .3, I don't doubt that you know what love is. But love
    can be crushed by an endless string of broken promises. Ask any child
    whose estranged parent talks a good game but never visits...
    
    At any rate, what I did was to assemble resources to address the needs
    of the troubled soulmate whom I was disengaging from. And to slowly,
    and admittedly painfully, begin to sever the bond. He knows that I love
    him dearly. He knows that his inability to commit has hurt me too much,
    and has cost him our relationship. He respects my decision as I am
    trying to respect his choice not to commit.
    
    And I am moving on.
    
    If finances are part of the equation, then that is your choice. And you
    have LOTS of options. You can always quietly see them both (trust me,
    it makes you exhausted, but you have to decide if its worth it) and see
    if #1 divorces his wife in July. If not, marry #2 in August! (That's a
    bit flip, but I think you know what I mean!) Or you can stay with #1
    out of that sense of obligation and be MISERABLE (I've been there, I
    don't recommend it). Or you can disengage from #1 and go with #2, and
    be poor, but probably happier. And there's a range of options in
    between.
    
    Because I disengaged, I'm recommending that you disengage. I know how
    heavy the sense of obligation can feel. But the man may pass away, and
    your obligation to him will have provided you with a feeling of having
    done something noble, but in the end, it won't leave you with the inner
    satisfaction of knowing that you addressed your own needs.
    
    Sometimes you have to be selfish. If you work at it, it is still
    possible to help this man in his ill state, while making your new life
    without him at the center.

    Me think thou shall do to the other what the other has done to
    another, but be prepared that one day the fourth one may do to you what 
    you do to the other.
    
    Eugene

    re.0
    
    I've never found myself in quite your situation, so my response should
    be taken as such.
    
    If you care deeply for this man as a friend, certainly deserting him
    now wouldn't leave you feeling good about yourself.  However, 'breaking
    it off' isn't exactly kicking him when he's down.
    
    His promise of the moon and a divorce by July, after eleven years,
    leaves me wondering why.  He may come through, but what then? 
    Practically speaking, he is quite ill and living day to day with a
    dying person is very difficult.  I find myself wondering if he is
    indulging in some illusion of dying nobly in the arms of the woman he
    _really_ loves.  Also, if his wife could have wiped him out financially
    in a divorce over the past eleven years, she could probably still do it
    [unless the laws have changed materially].  Even if the intent is there
    to deliver the moon, the means may not be.
    
    I also cannot see it as a kindness to _any_one to stand by this person
    if your heart is otherwise engaged.
    
    But these are all opinions based on _my_ values.
    
      Annie

The following is a reply from the basenote author

_________________________________________________________


Thank you all for your input.  It really helped me to just get it out
by talking about it.  I agree with most of the replies in that I am
too close to the situation to make any kind of reliable decision right
now.  I will distance myself from it as much as I can so that I can
make a rational decision.  It was never my intent to become entangled
with two men like this.  At the moment, I am seeing both of them as one
of the notes suggested but it is not easy; in fact it is tearing me 
apart.  I am basically a very honest person and to have to divide my
loyalties like this is extremely difficult.  The decision may be taken
out of my hands soon anyway because I'm not sure (nor are his doctors)
how long #1 will have to live.  It depends on where the cancer decides
to strike next.  That disease is not too particular which vital organ
it decides to start up in but the doctors say that it has already 
spread and is not operable or curable at this point.  So, sad though
it may be, I feel that he does not have too long.  Perhaps only a 
matter of weeks.  I would feel guilt for the rest of my life if I did
not try to make his last days a little more bearable for him.  In this
case, I cannot bring myself to be selfish as much as I'd like to.  So
I guess I may have to lead a double life for a short period of time,
much as I hate this.

>    Practically speaking, he is quite ill and living day to day with a
>    dying person is very difficult.  I find myself wondering if he is
>    indulging in some illusion of dying nobly in the arms of the woman he
>    _really_ loves.

Another reason could be that the man is afraid.


I can only think of questions for the basenoter to find answers to.
I wonder where the man's family stands in all this.  Is he still living
with his wife?  How much support will she give him?  How much support will
his children provide?  Where will he go when he is no longer able to
function?  To a hospital?  To a nursing home?  To home with home health
care?  If he doesn't divorce his wife, will you truly be able to see him
during his last days?

My first thought about your basenote was not very nice and not at all
complimentary, but I think it's something you need to face (and I know from
experience how difficult it is)--both for your sake and for his.  Do you
have some heroic image of yourself making this man's last days better?  
Would you be doing this for yourself or for him? Do you know how difficult
it can be to watch someone die of cancer? To take care of someone dying of
cancer?  If he should leave everything behind and go to you, are you truly
prepared to deal with the process?  Especially since you are not in love
with him anymore?  

    I think I sound rather blunt and I've only addressed one side of your
    issue. (Guess your note hit a few still-raw nerves.)  I do hope you're 
    able to take the time to go off on your own and think about everything 
    that's happening.  May you find peace in whatever decision you make.  
    With hugs and moral support,
    nla    

    
    Just a question here, what makes you so sure he would leave his money
    to you rather than his wife?  I know of at least one situation where
    the man remarried but had a pre-nuptual agreement wherein his new wife
    agreed that she would lay claim to nothing and that his ex "who had
    spent the bulk of his years with him" would end up with everything.  If
    money is a consideration, think about this.

    Regarding the second relationship, I would also caution using more time
    to decide if it really *is* the one you want.  Try to keep your options
    open until you feel very confident of which relationship is better for
    you.  In this case, it sounds as if the decision is about to be made
    for you.

    Best Wishes for a Brighter, Happier Future,
    Barb

    
    I must admit that one of my first reactions to the basenote was along
    the lines of .7 - I think it will be very difficult for you to see No.
    1 at the end anyway.  I'm making alot of assumptions here, but assuming
    that he still lives with his wife and that she doesn't know about you,
    how will you visit him?  If he stays at home you can hardly go to the
    house, and even at a hospital, how will you explain yourself if you
    run in to her, or any of his kids?  A good friend?  Who they've never
    met?
    
    Assuming still that his wife doesn't know about you and thinks that
    he's been faithful to her throughout their marriage, it would be
    terrible for her to find out during his dying days that he has in fact
    been having an affair for the past ten years?  She would understandably
    be devastated and it would ruin what memories she has of him forever. 
    That sort of thing is hard enough to come to terms with as it is, let
    alone when the partner is no longer around to explain ...
    
    As all I know of his wife and their situation is what I've read here,
    excuse me if I've jumped to too many conclusions.  But my other
    reaction is that you should follow your heart and go with the new man
    that you love.  You may never find another man like him, so if you pass
    him up now to spend a couple of miserable months hiding in the shadows
    for No. 1, you will regret it for the rest of your life once No. 1 is
    gone and you're left with no-one.
    
    I'm sorry if I sound harsh, I don't mean to and I can only imagine the
    guilt, frustration and hurt you're feeling now.  I hope that everything
    works out for you with the least heartbreak possible, and wish you
    every happiness for the future.  Good luck!
    
    Sam
    

hi..

It has been so long since I have been a part of Womannotes.. it feels good to
be back.

I have been in "tangental" situation(s), and would like to share with you 
"wisdom?" that others have shared with me, and things I have learned in the
process. 

First, I hesitate to say this, but the married man is /has been manipulating
you (although it does take two to allow it to happen ;-} - you know that
co-dependency word..?) and that is not fair.  I know he did not choose to have
cancer, but he is "utilizing" the fact to impact your actions.
(I still have anger from my experiences, so if they show through, I apologize
in advance..)

Where was this man when you were "ill" - needed him and his love and
commitment??  Did he give up his current life to accomodate you?  I bet he was
real good at making you feel loved and needed-(amazingly was it when you
were feeling strong(er) and thinking about your self and maybe leaving and
moving onwards???)  As a generic rule, the married gent has a 6th sense about
this. 

This does not mean he doesn't /didn't love you, but was it ever *enough* as 
you expected or needed or wanted?  How many times did you make excuses for his
behavior during this relationship?  How many times were "you the heavy" - or
thought "what am *I* doing wrong" etc. etc.? 


Fact:	9 out of 10 men stay with their wives (despite feelings for "the other
	woman").
Fact:	The 1 in 10 that leave for the "other woman", do not have a 
	successful 2nd marriage.  Usually there is that niggling doubt
	that rears it's ugly head; hmmmmm, can we trust eachother?
	"I mean he cheated before.. "(while he thinks) "She went out with a 
	married man.. can I trust her???".
Fact:   Even if the decision is /was ultimately "mutual", there will always
	be (hidden in that closet) blame to be brought out and used against
	the other one. 
Fact:	Sometimes magic does work 8-)!

Now, re: your latest love and "soul mate".  If you choose the married man
based on "guilt" (or whatever rational other than you love and prefer him 
more), aren't you now acting as your married man did?  Basing a choice on
what you think is the "kinder" or "rational" thing to do (not what you *want*
to do)?  This rationale (as you know from all sides) is not necessarily fair to
*ANYONE* involved. 

I do HEARTILY agree with everyone to date that says you MUST "distance" yourself
from the situation to gain "perspective".

Note, until you make a decision, you will be torturing yourself. So at least
give yourself a goal to work towards, a date for your decision, and it will
"offload" a lot of the current burdens, and let you think more clearly (and
maybe rest more easily knowing that you have started heading towards something
instead of staying in your current infinite loop). 


I wish you the best of love and luck, and believe in yourself!  

			thoughts,
			..jlg

    
    The following is a reply from a member of the file who also
    wishes to be anonymous.
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= mod
    
    ====================================================================

    Please, you have devoted 11 years of your life to this man who, for all
    intents and purposes, have given you *nothing* in return except pain. 
    Pain for loving him and knowing he goes home to *her*.  Pain for all
    the times he lied and cheated on both you and his wife.

    Now, this man has cancer and he is afraid of dying alone.  Even in
    illness, he wants to drag you down with him.  You have the opportunity
    to make a new start in life.  To begin anew, perhaps find the happiness
    and peace of mind with this new man that you never had, and probably
    never will, with the married man.  IMHO, but I have been there, and I
    still suffer and am racked with guilt and pain over the death of my
    beloved SO, who was also married (separated, though).  I stuck with him
    through thick and thin, through three brain surgeries.  He had mucho
    mucho, bucks, also, as you put it.  My mother is *so* angry that even after
    his death, I got *nothing*.  I was *not* remembered in his will.  Even
    in death, he was afraid to tear apart his family by remembering my love
    and dedication.  His wife wasn't there as I held his hand during the
    brain surgery, helped him through the most humiliating times he ever
    experienced, when his bowel and bladder control failed.  I was there,
    keeping the pain inside and trying to be brave and strong.  Yes, I heard
    the story you hear now "we'll marry this time next year".  This time
    next year he was dead and I wasn't even allowed to attend his funeral
    for the sake of the family.   When my SO and I were told he was
    terminal, about a week later when he finished chemo, he was gone.  Left
    while I was at work and spent his last 4 months of life living 600
    miles away from me *with his wife* and close to his parents and the
    people he grew up with.  He is buried there, also.  I don't even have
    the comfort of visiting his grave on a regular basis.  And, while we
    were separated, I was dying inside every day.  And he called me begging
    forgiveness and professing his undying love until the end.  His best
    friend called me some months later to tell me that his last words were 
    for me.  Small comfort when I could not be there to say goodbye.

    Two years later and two totally dysfunctional relationships later, I
    still cry, nearly every day, over his loss and the pain and humiliation
    and agony I suffered throughout the entire ordeal.  I will never forget
    and I will probably go to my grave still grieving and berating myself
    for my stupidity and the innocence I had.  I was convinced he felt the
    same as I and that all his words throughout the entire relationship
    were true.  Most people don't stop to think about the "other woman's"
    side, but are quick to judge them as whores and never find fault with the
    husband.  If only his wife knew all the things he told me.  I never
    even knew he was married until we had been together over 6 months and
    were living together at that point.  

    Please, do yourself a favor and live for yourself.  He is living for
    his own self and his wife is, and always will be there, even after you
    are gone.  Reason this:  she is probably in it for the security factor
    and if he is wealthy, she's gonna get EVERYTHING after he goes.  Why
    would she want to get out of a sure thing?  She'll be there, as my SO's
    wife was.  And guess what?  Today, this woman, who is just a bit older
    than I (and I'm in my late 20's) NEVER has to work a day in her life
    again.  And here I sit, working long, neverending hours, in a job that
    I'm satisfied with but I am struggling.  After my SO moved out, I had
    to sell *all* my valuables at a pawn shop to pay all the bills, which
    were not just incurred by *me*.  I had helped pay for some of his
    treatments, and now I am still struggling.  Is this fair?  You bet it
    isn't.  

    Stop feeling disloyal and guilty.  I say GO FOR IT!!!!  Wish him well
    and keep him in your prayers, but live your live and don't feel guilt.

    All my best to you and many hugs.  If you want to write off-line, ask
    the moderator to give you my address.