Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Wow, having an "accident" when your husband finally agrees it's good
    not to have children doesn't sound like it'll create a peaceful
    coexistance.
    
    My opinion would be to talk to him about your HONEST feelings, your
    change of heart.  Talk to him and ask him to rethink how he feels, and
    maybe let him think a while how it might feel to have children. 
    Express how important this is to you.  Express how you realize it is a
    change for you, but maybe that's what people mean by "their biological
    clock going off" - you're not the only person it's happened to!
    
    Please share your heart with him, make him understand you really want
    this, and give him the freedom to think about it himself.  I don't
    think he'll "come around" or "figure it out" unless you share yourself
    with him, share your changes, and share if you can why you changed. 
    Maybe to get a "feel for" parenting, borrow a close relative's
    child/children for a day, or a weekend, if they'd be comfortable with
    that, or have the child/ren and parent(s) stay in your house for a few
    days.  See how you and your husband feel.
    
    Good luck
    
    -Jody

    get thee to a shrink!

    re.0
    
    this is not meant to be flippant, but it would seems that the two of
    you are suffering through 'unsynchronised baby-hunger'
    
    > How do I get around this?
    
    I find myself wondering 'around' what?
    
      - his objections?
      - forgetting your pills?
      - feeling bummed?
      - all of the above?
    
    First, be honest and practical.  If you are have problems taking you
    pills, _let him KNOW_.  Sure, it's inadvertent; but you've already
    voiced concerns around 'accidental' effects upon your relationship. If
    the both of you have agreed to you taking oral contraceptives, then he
    has a right to know that the rules of the game have changed.
    
    It all comes down to priorities and agreement.  Right now it sounds
    like you want it all -- a situation with which I can heartily
    empathise.  But you may be forced to choose.  If your husband does not
    want children, he shouldn't have them to please you -- any more than
    you should have had them to please him.
    
    Get him to tell you what his objections are. Get him talking about his
    needs.  The more you know _from him_ the better will you be able to
    forge some common answer.
    
    Talk to him about what you think has changed for you, and talk in
    specifics. 
    
      Annie

my heart goes out to you; it is hard to reverse one's mind on such a hot topic,
as this one is for so many.  But please, anon, either make yourself to take
your pills, or make sure to discuss that aspect with your husband.

Think how upset he would be to be the victim of an accident!

In another string, I asked
what is choice, whose choice is this anyway; what sparked that was that a couple
I knew had a 2nd baby, against the clearly expressed wishes of the man.  He
wanted the woman to abort, she could/would not, and to sum it up, he felt raped.
(Figuratively speaking; no offense meant to victims of actual rape.)

If you get pregnant accidently on purpose, your husband would have every right
to be angry.  You cannot predict the outcome to your relationship in that case.

Are you ready to sacrifice your marriage to your desire to have a child? are you
ready to take on raising a child yourself, if you surprised your husband and
he bolted?  are you prepared to share custody of a child with a man who would
hate you, and resent the child?  Are you ready to be married to a man who
resents you for forcing a lifelong committment on him, unwilling?  I am sorry to
sound harsh and heartless, but these are the real possibilities you must
consider if you keep "forgetting" your bc pills.

just my opinion.
Sara

    In the two years that you thought about it did you discuss your
    changed feelings with your husband?  If not, why not?  I agree with
    Herb that talking to a counseler might help.
    	Linda

    
    I have to agree with .3. Marriage involves incredible trust. And right
    now, your husband is trusting you to take care of birth control. In
    your current state of mind, you aren't really up to handling that
    responsibility, and I think you should pass the baton, QUICKLY, before
    something happens that ruins your marriage. And unplanned, unwanted
    babies can EASILY ruin a marriage.
    
    Buy some condoms. Have him buy some condoms. And explain to him,
    somehow, that you're too torn emotionally to be entrusted with birth
    control decisions. Otherwise, you run the risk that he'll leave you.
    Ask yourself if you really want to be a SINGLE mother.

    re: .2  Amen.  This is a great time to get to know a good marriage
    counselor.  Go directly to EAP for some recommendations or ask around.
    This kind of serious life decision, so fraught with emotion, needs some
    experienced arbitration.  You don't want your husband to feel like he
    is "caving in" to you on this matter, and you don't want to forever
    feel resentment toward your husband if he doesn't.  Having an
    "accident", even a subconscious one, is about the worst way to resolve 
    this.
    
    And a word of warning about "borrowing" other people's kids.  I have 
    always been very uncomfortable around other people's children, even
    one's I'm related to.  I always figured I would be the same around my
    own kids and thought I wouldn't like being a dad.  But that has not
    turned out to be the case at all.  For me, there is a big big
    difference between my own kids and someone elses.
    
    One more word of advice.  If your husband does relent, but if there is
    repressed resentment (or possibly even if there isn't) it will likely
    show itself near the birth of your child.  It is a time for you to be
    very careful to keep the love light on your husband, as hard as that
    might be in the excitement of a new child.  I know whereof I speak on
    this matter.
    
    Good luck!
    - Vick

    Ah, shades of my sister and brother-in-law.  Both said "no kids" for
    many years, then around age 30-32 my sister changed her mind.
    
    Their resolution, which may or may not work for you, was an agreement
    that *all* child-related care would be my sister's responsibility.  His
    life-style would not change as a result of the addition of a baby. 
    Backpacking, biking, white-water kayaking trips, etc. etc. would
    continue as before.  Fortunately my sister has the stamina of an ox (I
    don't, and could not have managed such an agreement) and was the
    principal wage-earner of the family, both of which figured into the
    equation while reaching this agreement.
    
    Once the kid was born, my brother-in-law changed his mind fairly
    rapidly, and provided most of the child-care during the baby's first
    year.  This *isn't* the most common outcome in this kind of scenario,
    but they're an unusual couple in a myriad of ways.  But it is *a* way,
    and one you might wish to include in your explorations of how to meet
    the greatest number of needs of the greatest number of people involved.
    
    Alison

    Re: .0
    
    How sure are you that you won't change your mind again? Just from the
    little I've read here, I get the feeling you haven't really "settled
    down" on this. DON'T RUSH INTO THIS. Talk to your husband about it.
    Saying that "it's something inside" feels like dodging the issue to me.
    What's changed? It may be hard to put into words, it probably isn't
    clear yet, but try to communicate your feelings to your husband. Unless
    he understands your feelings, he won't come around to your viewpoint -
    at least not till he gets there on his own.
    
    Janice and I went round and round about wanting/not wanting kids. We
    swap views every 18 months or so for many years. But we realized that
    we hadn't come to any firm conclusions yet. It wasn't until we both
    wanted kids, and had both wanted them for a couple of years that we
    finally did it.
    
    I'm glad we waited.
    
    	-- Charles

    One other point as you negotiate this very tricky area, don't feel
    responsible for his not wanting kids.  I get the impression from your
    basenote that you feel you "created" his no-kids attitude and now you
    feel that your desire to have them constitutes a kind of betrayal on 
    your part.
    
    This is not so unless he wanted kids early on and you specifically did
    get him to relinquish his dream for you.  That may be a tougher
    situation.  But most likely your husband was ambivalent and allowed you
    to make the decision for him.  You needn't take responsibility for his
    ambivalence!  Now you are giving him the opportunity to explore *his* 
    feelings about children.  Present it that way.  If/when he turns your 
    own objections back on you, explain that your objections have changed 
    and the issue now is *his* feelings, not yours.  Having been "lazy" on 
    the issue for so long, he may have little or no idea how he feels.  But 
    give him time.  Open the discussion and put the responsibility on him to 
    figure out and communicate how *he* feels about children, (not how he 
    thought *you* felt, or how he thinks you want him to feel or anything 
    else).  And don't expect a quick resolution as the result of opening the 
    discussion.  First he has to live with the idea for awhile, live with 
    himself with the idea for awhile, and live his normal life with the idea 
    for awhile.  Gradually, his feelings will jell and over time, and with 
    the subject and the lines of communication open, (and NO pressure from 
    you), he will begin to express himself.  Make it clear that you're 
    not asking him to decide to have a child, but only that he think seriously 
    about his feelings on the subject - independent from your feelings. 
    And try to keep your input to a minimum.   
    
    The best advice I'd offer is to give him time.  The worst you can do is 
    to appear to him to have "suddenly" changed your mind and now seem in a 
    heated rush to get his approval and get pregnant.  He will most likely 
    resist this with everything he has.  Be conscious of keeping panic, 
    desperation and a sense of entitlement out of your negotiations.  You 
    must tread as lightly as you'd expect him to if he were to approach you
    with a newly-made decision to accept a job in another country.  You're 
    changing your contract.  Be gentle and give him time to adjust.
    
    If you get pregnant accidently on purpose, expect him to feel insulted,
    tricked and genuinely betrayed.  This isn't time for "desperate
    measures", it's time for treating your husband as an adult and
    respecting his ability to make the right choices for his life - just
    like you respect your own.              
    
    Sandy Ciccolini             

    
    I think seeing professional help will be the best way to go.
    This may not be accurate, but I have a feeling that your husband
    wanted kids initially and was talked out of it. Now, you are
    changing your mind. It could be very difficult for him since
    he may feel manipulated or being jerked around. 
    
    I think it will help if you come up with a plan and discuss
    it with ypur husband in a organized manner. Eg. how many
    kids in all you want, how many years apart, how do share 
    responaiblities, how much $ is going to go daycare, etc, etc.
    Having kids is a BIG change. If the details are not thought of,
    it can be overwhelming. If you can think of all that then
    your husband will know you are serious this time. 
    Men are usually more facts driven as to emotions driven, at
    least my husband is.
    
    Eva
    

    If the heart had "a change of heart" it can change again... and then,
    what happens? I think that to bring a child to this world should not be
    caused by a change of heart but by a very strong desire of being a
    parent and going through all the sleepless nights, joys and tears, 
    difficulties, duties, responsibilities of parenhood.  That does not
    last a year or two, it lasts a lifetime, (or used to last that long)
    but family structure has gone through many changes and actually it is
    not strong at all, at 18 we expect our kids to be on their own, and at
    18 a person is seldom mature enough to become independent and choose 
    the right decisions, with the results that we often see... marriages
    that lasts just a few years and the abundance of one parent families,
    that is a hard burden on that one parent... and hard on the children
    too.
    If one spouse is not ready and committed to parenthood... I find it
    extremelly difficult to have a child and a stable family at the same
    time... but who knows? I my own opinion, I would need 100% of my spouse
    support and love... and at times, that is not enough, life is hard and
    there too many challenges throroughout our life spam.
    Whatever you do, best wishes and lots of luck.
    
    unduly stress
    

    Remember all those starving children in India we were reminded of when
    we waste food?  Well, guess what, they're still there.  And there's
    even more of them then ever before.  And guess what else?  They're not
    all in India.  Some of them are within a hundred miles of you.  
    
    There is no excuse for bringing unwanted children into this world
    accidently-on-purpose.  Every time you go through a formerly beautiful
    area that's now being made condo's, remember there's a world population
    problem.
    
    If I had my way, I'd allow no more then one child per parent for the
    lifestyle I and most of my peers lead.  (ie, we don't need 12 children
    so 6 will grow up and help farm.)  And, ideally, they'd adopt a
    needy child rather then producing a brand new one.  (I know, it's
    difficult to adopt, even those needy children, but there has to be a
    way)  But, ideals aside, if people are going to insist on having babies
    they'd better make sure they're wanted for the next 100 years, because
    they might be around that long.
    
    Further, you might have a picture of a beautiful baby, with Mom's nose
    and Dad's hair.  How about if it's not your standard baby, maybe with
    physical or mental anomolies.  You're not guarenteed perfect product. 
    Are you ready to love an accidently on purpose baby with Down's?  They
    are certainly worth it for those commited to their children, but if you
    just had one out of carelessness?
    
    The husband has a right to know.  If you forgot once by accident,
    that'd be part of the risks in taking the pill.  But if you've been
    consistantly forgetting and haven't told him, you are wholly
    responsible.
    
    Rachael     

    >I think that to bring a child to this world should not be
    >caused by a change of heart but by a very strong desire of being a
    >parent and going through all the sleepless nights, joys and tears, 
    >difficulties, duties, responsibilities of parenhood.  
    
    If one has lived one's life not wanting children, the two situations
    above can be one in the same.  Having a "very strong desire..." *is*
    having a change of heart.  Someone else mentioned something to the
    effect of, "how do you know you won't change back?"
    
    Think for a minute.  This woman has lived her whole life saying no to
    kids.  I seriously doubt that she'd be willing to admit to those in her
    world she was mistaken, risk her marriage and change her life irrevocably 
    for a passing fancy.  I'd say many women's, (couple's) desires for children 
    are indeed passing fancies.  But for a woman who's spent her whole life 
    saying no, such a desire is anything but.  It takes far more strength
    and determination for an atheist to go to church than a devout religious 
    person, no?  The very change itself demonstrates the seriousness of pupose.
      
    So I have made the assumption that she has fought with herself and her 
    politics over this over a good amount of time and has made a definite
    decision, as evidenced by what she's willing to face for that decision.  
    I take her seriously and believe her problem is not whether or not to 
    trust her own heart, but how to approach her husband, the "mate-of-her-
    past-politics".  The broader issue is how to incorporate personal growth 
    into a married union without destroying that union.  To that I answer, 
    "gently, and slowly".  If they are strong enough, and in love enough,
    they will survive the destruction of the past pact, (a terrifying
    step), and will be able to forge a new one with new rules.  To her,
    it's already worth it.  She has to convince him it will also be worth 
    it to him.
    
    Sandy Ciccolini
    

    
    One risk that has not been mentioned, it the risk to the baby
    if you were to get pregnant while on the pill.  Doctors sometimes
    recommend up to 6 months respite from the pill before becoming
    pregnant!  They strongly recommend at least 1 month.  There have
    been studies proving large increases in the chance of birth
    defects as a result of the hormone inbalance that is created by
    both being on the pill and being pregnant.
    
    Whatever you do, PLEASE don't get pregnant while on the pill!!!
    
    In addition, Working Woman last month or the month before had
    stats on women in their 30's and 40's having children.  The chance
    of birth defects was not much even in the 40's!  The chances of
    abnormal babies was much higher from smoking than anything else!
    
    
    So, my position is, "don't rush".  Take your time.  Get a pet if
    you feel you need to nurture something.  
    
    I must admit that I am the person whom you say you used to be.
    I don't want children.  In my quest for support for my position,
    I asked the 4 fathers whom I work with, how they like it.  Only
    one liked it and his wife was/is a homemaker!  One man actually
    said he and his wife had waited for 9 years to have children.  She
    talked him into it and he wishes he'd stood his ground.  Another
    said he wished he'd never had kids!  Do take your hustband's
    feelings seriously.  I think these men are examples of what you
    don't want to happen.
    (BTW- I wanted support for my position for myself.  All my women-
    friends are pregnant.)
    
    Rachael Barlow
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    
    Here is an anonymous reply from the author of the basenote.
    
    Justine
    
***************************************************************************

      Thanks to all who have answered here.  I realize that I have to discuss 
    this further with my husband, but I am still looking for the words. As 
    one person has mentioned, I don't want to seem desparate. Actually, I'm 
    not desparate.  However, I was a later life child, my parents were too old 
    to be doing stuff with me. I would like to have kids now, so they don't 
    have to go through that.  Anyway, I had a few notes I wanted to comment on:

**************************************
Re : Note 763.2  VMSSPT::NICHOLS "It ain't easy being green"       

>>    get thee to a shrink!

Thank you. I truely needed these loving words of kindness at this time.
********************

Re : Note 763.5  NAVIER::SAISI
>>    In the two years that you thought about it did you discuss your
>>    changed feelings with your husband?  If not, why not?  I agree with
>>    Herb that talking to a counseler might help.

I did not dicuss it because I wanted to be sure I was sure. I had known for so 
longthat I did not want kids that it came a surprise to me that I did. I wanted 
to sortthings out with myself and make sure this was really how I feel. In fact 
I saw a councelor for a while for an unrelated problem, and because of that I 
can truely say that I know what I want out of life now.
*******

Note 763.7 R2ME2::BENNISON "Victor L. Bennison DTN 381-2156 ZK2-3/R56"

>>    experienced arbitration.  You don't want your husband to feel like he
>>    is "caving in" to you on this matter, and you don't want to forever
>>    feel resentment toward your husband if he doesn't. 

I have already expressed concerns about this to him. I have expressly stated
that I don't want to talk him into it. I want him to want kids too. 
*********************
Note 763.9 OXNARD::HAYNES "Charles Haynes"

>>    How sure are you that you won't change your mind again? Just from the
>>    little I've read here, I get the feeling you haven't really "settled
>>    down" on this. DON'T RUSH INTO THIS. Talk to your husband about it.
>>    Saying that "it's something inside" feels like dodging the issue to me.

I am *not* dodging the issue. Although I am a writer by trade and hobby, I just
can't find the words for it. I know I want to take of someone, nurture, teach my
arts to etc. I know there's bad stuff too...I was a kid once, I see my brother's
kids. I also see that bad stuff in my brothers kids as a direct result of the
serious mistakes (drugs, etc) he and his wife have made bringing them up.
*************************
Note 763.10  TALLIS::TORNELL

>>    situation.  But most likely your husband was ambivalent and allowed you
>>    to make the decision for him.  You needn't take responsibility for his
>>    ambivalence!  Now you are giving him the opportunity to explore *his* 
>>    feelings about children.  Present it that way.  

Although I appreciate all of the advice I have received in these notes, your
seem to hit the nail on the head. This makes so much sense to me. Thanks Sandy!
*******************************

Note 763.11 STAR::MACKAY "C'est la vie!" 

>>                        -< Come up with a master plan. >-

Done. He just has to buy into it :-)
******************************
Note 763.12 MR4DEC::MAHONEY

>>   If the heart had "a change of heart" it can change again... and then,
>>    what happens? I think that to bring a child to this world should not be
>>    caused by a change of heart but by a very strong desire of being a
>>    parent and going through all the sleepless nights, joys and tears, 
>>    difficulties, duties, responsibilities of parenhood.  

I realized after I had the mod post this for me that the title was perhaps off 
base. It is not just a whim by any means. It is a strong desire, etc.
****************************************

Note 763.13 LEDS::BERMAN "Give blood, Play rugby!"

>>    Remember all those starving children in India we were reminded of when
>>    we waste food?  Well, guess what, they're still there.  And there's
>>    even more of them then ever before.  And guess what else?  They're not
>>    all in India.  Some of them are within a hundred miles of you.  

I do not need to be scolded. I am perfectly aware of the population problems
etc. I am not a 16 year old girl with raging hormones, nor am I a religeous
fanatic that believes it's gods will to have a child. I *want* a child. I
have also given much thought to adoption, but that's another topic entirely.
********************

Note 763.14 TALLIS::TORNELL

>>    Think for a minute.  This woman has lived her whole life saying no to
>>    kids.  I seriously doubt that she'd be willing to admit to those in her
>>    world she was mistaken, risk her marriage and change her life irrevocably 

In fact, my husband and the moderator of this conference are the only 2 people 
who know at this time. I haven't discussed this with anyone else. Ain't nobodys
business...

>>    for a passing fancy.  I'd say many women's, (couple's) desires for 
children 
>>    are indeed passing fancies.  But for a woman who's spent her whole life 
>>    saying no, such a desire is anything but.  It takes far more strength
>>    and determination for an atheist to go to church than a devout religious 
>>    person, no?  The very change itself demonstrates the seriousness of 
pupose.
      
Sandy, I love you! This is exactly what I would have said if I could have found 
the words. I truely appreciate your support. I feel like you have somehow 
reached out and explained the situation for me. 

Thanks to all who have answered here,

    re .16,                                                  
    
    I think the problem with anonymous note is that when people don't see 
    a real person behind the note, they more or less see it as an
    abstract debate topic; hence, they are less on guard and more forward.
    
    The advantage of being anonymous is that you don't have to defend. 
    After all it is anonymous.
    
    Eugene

|I do not need to be scolded. I am perfectly aware of the population problems
|etc. I am not a 16 year old girl with raging hormones, nor am I a religeous
|fanatic that believes it's gods will to have a child. I *want* a child. I
|have also given much thought to adoption, but that's another topic entirely.
    
    
    Neither do I.  I wasn't scolding you, I was giving you my opinion. 
    If you're too sensitive to take my telling you that it sounds like
    you're on the verge of being irresponsible, maybe you'd better enter a
    note saying you only want warm-huggy replies.
    
    Rachael
    
                                                      

    
    Just one thing - I agree that you must tell your husband you've been
    missing the pill.  If you can't rely on yourself to remember to take
    it, then maybe he can remind you!  A gentle "Have you remembered your
    pill this evening/morning" would work wonders for your memory!  It will
    also prevent an "accident" which you say you don't want, and which
    could entail the sort of dangers detailed in an earlier note re:
    pregnancy while on the pill.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Sam
    

      You said you wanted to be sure of your feelings before you shared
    them with your husband.  This is the part that I think could use
    some working on.  What is wrong with expressing ambivalent feelings?
    Were you afraid he would want children and then you would decide
    you didn't?  Or did you want to have a plan of attack to convince
    him that children are a good idea?  He is going to take a long time
    to resolve his feelings, just as it took you a long time.  If you
    had talked to him all along you could have gone through that process
    together.  It is a decision/process that both of you have to make
    and be involved in.  I was suggesting a couples counsellor not one
    for just you.
    	Linda

    
    From what I understand, the communication at your home is not very
    "open". I think it is not a good idea to keep all that to 
    yourself. I would probably get upset if my husband comes home
    one day and said "I've been thinking about this for 2 years...".
    Marriage is dynamic. My husband and I try to bounce ideas
    off each other (some of these ideas are far out and some are obnoxious).
    I don't hesitate to tell him how I think of him on any particular
    day!!!! So what if the idea sounds silly? If I can't be "silly" 
    at home, where else can I go?  
    
    That aside, what are your husband's arguments against having
    children? Are they valid concerns? Can there be compromises?
    I don't know how old you folks are, maybe he is not ready.
    Maybe he is still on shock from the suggestion. 
    Maybe give him a couple of years to digest it. It would be 
    easier for him to take if you had included him in your "project" 
    from day one, then it wouldn't come as a surprise.
    In the mean time, don't have a kid. It is not easy to raise a kid
    by yourself, unless you don't mind. 
    
    
    Eva.
    
      

    
    To the Basenoter, as a matter of explaination:
    
    I and I would guess many other people who replied, saw red when you
    said you were forgetting your pills.  It's hard to hear someone say
    they're consciously or unconsciously encouraging a possibly unwanted
    (at least half unwanted) pregnancy.  Especially since you seemed so
    almost off-the-cuff about it, like it wasn't really a big deal.
    while I sympathize with the torment you must be feeling, I sympathize
    more with a child coming into the world in those circumstances.  You
    can make a choice.  Your husband and child can't.  I'm not trying to
    lecture you.  I'm only trying to explain why so many of us were not
    as warm and supportive as we I hope this makes you understand why
    you got the reaction you did.  I don't believe this conference is
    by nature unsupportive.  Please don't feel alienated.  But at the
    same time, please think first of the results of your actions.
    (perhaps you could pray about it?  That solves most of my problems.)
    
    Rachael Barlow
    
    to see through all of that.

    If, in my understanding, the husband is at the point that HE
    does not want children then why is it HER responsibility to
    provide the means for preventing conception????  Think about
    it.....it takes two things to make a baby (sperm and egg).  
    The one (at this point) who is adament about not wanting to
    make a baby might actively pursue the means of making sure 
    the sperm does not reach the egg!  Having the HE make sure
    the SHE takes the chemical to create the barrier is, in my
    opinion, putting this into a parent/child relationship!  SHE
    is not a child and HE is not her parent making sure she does
    something.  Let HIM take responsibility.

    justme....jacqui    

re: .23 (jacqui)

    I don't understand how it's in her best interests that he take the 
responsibility for contraception.  Given the array of contraceptive options
available to men, it basically becomes a choice between condoms, a vastectomy,
and abstinence.

    In the first case, she faces an increased risk (increased over correct
use of the pill, that is) of an unwanted pregnancy (albeit a reduced risk of 
birth defects should one occur), and the emotional stress and strain on the 
relationship that that would engender.  In the second case, she faces having 
her hopes dashed permanently in one fell swoop.  Presumably the third 
alternative would also be unacceptable.

     What exactly did you have in mind?

          Sharon

Re: .23

I think that him taking responsibility for contraception is a fine idea. However
that wasn't the issue - the problem is that he will get blindsided, he doesn't
KNOW there's a problem with their contraception strategy, he has no reason to
believe that anything needs to be done. The rules have changed, and he hasn't
been told.

	-- Charles

    To the base noter...
    Whatever your decision is will be your decision alone, one thing I want
    to tell you, I have three children, all grown up by now but still very
    close to us... I could not conveive life WITHOUT them... for me they
    have been a pleasure since the first day they were born.  I had them
    when I was very joung, I enjoyed being with them and could care less
    for any career... nothing could compare at that moment to my babies,
    when, when they grew up to enter kindergarten I again, got a job (in
    the school system, so I could have the same schedule...) that worked
    like a charm, and when they were a bit older  I got a normal 8 to 5
    job.  We've been close enough to them to really "keep an eye" on them
    at all times and maybe we've been lucky, maybe we've been too
    protective, but the core of the subject is that none of the three have
    ever given us trouble... they've finished school on time, with good
    grades, have never been late coming home, have finished college with
    high honors...
    Kids are a great responsibility, but also great joys! I've been blessed
    with good kids, I hate to make a general impression that all kids a
    great, that all marriages should have kids and things like that, I am
    talking to you out of my own experience, not anybody else's.  But if
    you happen to be as lucky as me, you'll never regret having a child...
    again, these things are like a lotery, you never know what the future
    will bring.
    
    In whatever you do, I wish you the very best. Cheers.  Ana
    

    Ana
    	It sounds, from your note, as if your husband was with you on the
    decision to have children.  I'd further assume that he was providing
    the bulk of your family's financial support, if you were not working or
    working part-time, and had sacrificed your career.  I think that's fine
    and it sounds like you two were wonderful parents, but I think in the
    case of the  base noter, if she forces her husband to have a baby when
    he didn't want to, (by abandoning their agreed upon method of
    contraception without telling him), then she may easily end up a single
    mother and that's a different story.  Not impossible, perhaps, (there's
    one in my family, she's done a great job,) but extremely difficult.  A
    huge percentage of the nation's poor are single mothers and their
    children.

    Rachael

    To me children are a gift and are very much part of the life cycle.
    But, so many people have them for the wrong  reasons.
    Be sure that is what you and your husband really want because
    after you have them there is no turning back...
    I came from a big family and saw how it was for my parents
    to raise all of us. I decided to have only one child and
    she is quite enough for me.. I became a single parent
    for awhile and made it thru.. Now she's grown to thinking
    of her own life and what she has plan.

    to .20
    	Guillen... That is my maiden name! and it is the very first time
    that I see this name here in the U.S.  (I am from Seville, Spain)
    Could you please, tell me where your name (ascentry) come from?
    Thanks! Ana Guillen (before it changed to Mahoney)
    

You might eventually convince your husband he wants children.  It sounds like
there is a good chance you won't.  What happens then?  You have as much "right"
to children as he has to avoid them, and this is not an area that admits much
compromise.  This is easily the kind of thing that could end a marriage... have
you considered whether either of you would back down before it came to that?

At the time my wife and I got married, we both agreed that we didn't want
children.  We were both ambitious and believed being totally committed to our
careers was incompatible with being good parents (or even enjoying it very
much).  Five years later, she changed her mind.  I've never changed mine.

We reached an accomodation.  She had lost interest in being a high powered
professional (I believe this is one of the causes of her desire to become a
mom).  I was more motivated by what I wanted to accomplish rather than by the
lifestyle two incomes and no kids can buy.  So we agreed to live the 50's
American Dream... she stays home and takes care of the kids (we're up to three)
and house and I have the career I want.  I'm the standard old fashioned dad; my
kids adore me; I enjoy the few hours we spend together.  I occasionally feel
guilty that she has a lifestyle that I could never tolerate, but she is no more
eager to trade places than I am.

So the situation admits compromise after all.  I'm not recommending mine to
anyone.  But think about what children would mean to your life.  Talk with your
husband about what is important to him in your lifestyle that would have to
change.  Think about what is important to you.  What is your image of life with
children?  Is it realistic?  Are there other possibilities that might be better
for everyone?

You're facing what could easily be the most important decision of your life.  I
wish you luck.

    A *late* reply to the anonymous basenoter.....

I heard you say you were having trouble talking to your husband about the 
problem of your now wanting children, as well as perhaps other problems 
such as responsibility for remembering your pills, etc....And you mentioned 
being a writer by profession and hobby. 

If you can't find the words to start the conversation, write him a letter 
and break the ice. It may start a long evening's conversation or it may put 
a chill on the whole night, but at least it will get your first words out 
EXACTLY as you intend them, with clear logical reasoning and feelings. A 
letter cant be interupted, or knocked off track in the middle. He can read 
it and then either: get mad, agree 100% with you, start a discussion, or 
(fill in the blank with his favorite methods), but it will get it out on 
the table for you...

Good luck, you have a long road ahead of you both.....

    Vic

    
    From the author of the basenote...
    =================================================================
    
re: .31

Thanks for the advice...since my husband is a DECie(that's why I've posted this
annonymusly) I finally just told him about this note and had him read it. It
opened some dialog, but not much. I do appreciate your suggestion, though.

Actually, not much has changed since I wrote the base note. I have not missed a
pill since before I wrote the note, but nothing else has changed. I'll bring up
the subject of having kids now and then, and he will usually respond with
something like, "Do you think the Sox should trade Jody Reed?" He basicly won't
discuss it...He has the habbit of ignoring issues and hoping they will go 
away. Meanwhile,  I am realizing that we have alot more serious problems than
disagreeing on the children issue...I think we should probably see a marriage
councelor, and he of course thinks that Jody Reeds batting average will start
declining, so they should trade him while they can get someone that can...etc

(sigh)

    Dear Basenoter:
    
    Your note has a bit of a familiar ring to me, personally.  I went
    through my teens and 20s saying I never wanted children.  Now, with my
    husband, and with the love that we share, I want children more than
    ever.  I knew he wanted children BEFORE we married, (and it's important
    that the subject be discussed beforehand).  It doesn't always guarantee
    mutual agreement down the road, though.      
    
    The decision to have children should be MUTUAL.  I believe that in more
    cases than not, "accidents" are more harmful to a relationship.  I also
    believe that the child can most likely suffer in the end (resentment).
    
    What I suggest is that you and your husband explore his reasons for not
    wanting children.  Moreover, why is he AFRAID of discussing his
    feelings with you?  Avoidance is a sign that he is fearful of letting
    you know what his true feelings are.  Let him know that he can trust
    you.  Validate his feelings-- you don't have to agree with him, but you
    must allow him to have his opinion/fears/anxieties/etc. about having
    children.
    
    "HUSBAND, I love you dearly.  I hope you can TRUST me and SHARE with me
    your feelings about children.  Please TRUST that our relationship is
    strong enough to work through this."
    
    There is no doubt that making the decision to have children is a scary
    one.  Today's economy, our careers, chances of being laid off, etc.,
    are all contributing factors.  How does one make that decision and know
    that everything will be okay?  You don't.  You have to trust that
    together you can work through it.  You have to have confidence and
    faith that your relationship can continue to work through it, too.
    
    If you and your husband married and at the time you both professed to
    NEVER want children, and now you've had a change of mind, you need to
    find a way to share your feelings, your reasons, and work through that.
    
    There is some excellent conversation in NOTED::PARENTING around this
    same issue.  
    
    A marriage counselor/therapist-- for BOTH of you, can help you two
    learn to communicate and listen to each other.  You need this - to keep
    your relationship strong, and even before you have children...
    ESPECIALLY before you have children.
    
    I hope that I haven't offended, or given you the impression that I am
    pretending to be any kind of expert on the subject... far from it.  
    
    Lastly, I am sending my warmest hugs to you.  I think I understand what
    you are feeling.  If you want to talk off-line, let me know.
    
    Rgds,
    marcia

Another reply from the anonymous author of the basenote.

Justine -- Womannotes Comod
********************************************************************************

Well, we had a long talk over the weekend...*he* suggested that maybe we should 
go for counceling...we both agree that things aren't good the way they are, and 
having kids is not an issue that will go away. Neither of us wants to break up 
over the issue of having kids, we both know that we wouldn't be happy without 
each other, the question stands at would he be less happy with kids, or would I 
be less happy without them. 

Anyway, so we have decided on counceling...Now we have to find one....can 
anyone reccomend a family/couple councelor in the Nashua NH/Northern 
Middlesex Ma area?

Thanks alot..

      Have you considered fostering a child for 3/6/9/ months. This is
      something that he will mught easier than a 24 year commitment.
      Rgds

    In my opinion, the best way to find a counselor is to go to EAP (which
    will give you a 1 hour consultation (free)) and ask for a recommendation
    for one.  A friend or stranger can't know how similar your needs are to
    theirs, so is in no position to really know whether their counselor 
    would be good for you.
    
    Good luck,
    Karen.

    Also, the EAP counselors will talk to you and your spouse together for
    as many as three sessions on this issue.  I recommend both Sharon
    and Noreen here at ZK, if that is where you work.  I have no
    experience with Chris, so can't say anything about him.  The outside
    referrals provided for me and my wife have been excellent choices.
    
    					- Vick

    
    Definitely go to EAP, it's free.  You may profit from it.  However,
    they struck out for me on referrals, and the *best* therapist I've ever
    had I found from a newspaper ad.  (Well, it was an ad in Sojourner, so
    it felt safer than an ad in a "regular" paper.)
    
    I'd recommend Monica Kent in Chelmsford.  She was the group leader for
    a group I belonged to for a couple of years, a couple of years ago. I 
    don't have her number but she's in the phone book.  She's an LiCSW. Last 
    I knew, she had an office in a professional buidling on Rte. 110 in 
    Westford.  I don't know if she "does" couples, but I do know that she is 
    very warm, down-to-earth, and compassionate.  She also likes to smile and 
    laugh.  Therapy/counselling doesn't have to be dreary; it's hard work and 
    can be scary but sometimes it's good to laugh, too.  It doesn't hurt to 
    call and talk on the phone.  Maybe you could think of some questions to 
    ask before you called (no matter who you call).
    
    Good luck,
    
    CQ

    Not to be a downer, but I can't second the recommendation of using EAP
    for referals.  Perhaps *some* EAP counselors are helpful, but when I
    went in for a referal, the EAP counselor asked me about three
    questions, skimmed through her list (a few pages of names) and said
    "Well, this one is near you."  At first I thought the list was of
    people who knew and recommended, but I realized the second time around
    (and after talking with the counselor she recommended) that the list
    was just a "stock" EAP list, and the EAP counselor I spoke to had never
    spoken to or even heard of the counselor she recommended to me!!!
    
    I'd say, talk to friend, newspaper, EAP, whatever resources are
    available.  The most important thing is to shop around, and don't feel
    there is something wrong with *you* if you don't click with the
    counselor.  S/he is there to help you, and if s/he isn't helping you,
    you have no obligation whatsoever to stay with hir.
    
    D!

    I can't substantiate, but have heard rumors of discussions with EAP
    folks reaching the ears of managers, and right quick too.  yeah, I
    know, they're supposed to be strictly confidential.

    i'm sure there are some not so great people in eap as there are 
    everywhere...but my experience has been good.  when i went to eap,
    i had a long session with an eap counselor, who really listened to 
    what was bothering me, and referred me to someone who has worked out
    well.  the eap counselor knows my therapist professionally, and called
    her on my behalf, to let her know i would be calling, and followed
    up with me to see that i was ok. maybe we should start a =wn= referral 
    service for good eap counselors and referrals!!! ;^)  i can't imagine 
    what my reaction would have been had they not been good...i'm not sure 
    how much worse it could have gotten, and i'm glad i didn't have to 
    find out.  guess i should consider myself lucky, huh?
    
    cheryl

    
    I just started a string called "How to find a therapist" (972).
    It seems we talk about that a lot, so I thought it deserved its own
    topic.
    
    
    Justine 

    >I can't substantiate, but have heard rumors of discussions with EAP
    >folks reaching the ears of managers, and right quick too.  yeah, I
    >know, they're supposed to be strictly confidential.
    
    Well, gee, thanks for spreading the unsubstantiated rumor even further.
    I'm sure you've done us all a big favor.  My experience here has been 
    that the counselors seem singularly uninterested in what organization
    I work for or who my boss is and have no motivation at all to find
    out.  What would be the purpose?  How would it benefit an EAP counselor
    to talk to my manager about my problems?  Why would they risk losing
    their nice job by doing that?  Only an ignoramous would think that 
    having my manager know my problems would help me with my problems.  The 
    counselors I've talked to are not ignoramouses.  
    
    					- Vick

    >I can't substantiate, but have heard rumors of discussions with EAP
    >folks reaching the ears of managers, and right quick too.  yeah, I
    >know, they're supposed to be strictly confidential.
    
>>    Well, gee, thanks for spreading the unsubstantiated rumor even further.
>>    that the counselors seem singularly uninterested in what organization
>>    I work for or who my boss is and have no motivation at all to find

    I thought EAP people were independant contractors who would not/COULD 
not talk to a manager without your permission. As a manager, I would not 
share *ANYTHING* I knew about an employee with anyone, including/especially 
EAP without having the employee initiate the conversation and sanctioning 
it for us. It is neither ethical nor moral for them to talk to a manager 
and I would strongly suggest that any actual indications of such behavior 
be reported to the head of corporate EAP immediately. I hope what you have 
heard is strictly "urban legend" and not based on fact.....

    Vic H

    I thought a problem I brought to EAP resulted in action by management.
    I don't know this for sure. If it did happen, I'm glad it did. My problem
    was in regard to a situation that should not have existed in the first
    place, and it was that problem that was resolved. I don't believe
    the EAP person would have had to tell management every thing I said,
    and I don't think management would have been interested in anything
    but that a particular situation was causing problems.
    
    I don't think you have to violate an employee's confidence in order
    to tell Digital that it has a problem.  By the way, the EAP person
    I saw was excellent.
    
    Eileen