Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    If it's just like a woman to feel compassion for a friend than I
    think that's great.  Would you expect to gloat over the fact that
    she got passed over?  Of course not.  Would she envy you your 
    position?  Not likely if she is your friend.  Perhaps you are 
    being a little too hard on yourself.  Realistically, it's not
    your fault that your friend was passed over for the job.  All
    you can really do is be there for her and encourage her to go
    on from there.  There will, most likely, be other great career
    moves for her in the future.
    
    Sue
    

    re.1
    
    It would appear that I missed the boat in communicating clearly a few
    things in .0.
    
    I _don't_ feel that it's my fault.  I was in there pulling for her all
    along. I feel guilty because I worked my buns off and won, while she
    worked her buns off and lost.
    
    It's along the lines of the "imposter syndrome."  Certainly, from any
    logical perspective, I'm being too hard on myself. _That's_ the part
    that I'm wondering about -- is that 'just like a woman?'
    
    Also, my friend is EXTREMELY envious of my successes. Which is not to
    say that she is jealous or begrudging.  She's very proud of me.
    
    I mean, _I'm_ envious of E Grace's lovely red hair, but I don't want to
    pull it out ...
    
      Annie

    
    I tend to do this sometimes - I feel like for some reason if some
    friend is "down", or something bad has happend to her that hasn't
    happened to me, sometimes I must one-up them, and in the process I wind
    up one-downing myself.  I bolster them to my own detriment, jokingly
    put myself down to put them up.  
    
    Sometimes I feel I didn't "earn" what I have or what I do, because I am
    currently not completely able to own all my successes (although
    sometimes I see I worked damn hard for them).  So it feels even more
    tenuous that "I got" and "they didn't", or they got shafted and I
    didn't, or whatever.
    
    It's all very twisted, but very real.  And the fear of failure is often
    stronger in many women than any feelings of security about any successes
    they've had.  So, truly, sometimes I feel "there but for the grace of
    God(dess) go I".
    
    -Jody
    

I feel this way all the time, Annie.

On a small scale, I feel guilty that I got good grades in school when I worked
my butt off, when other people who also worked their butts off didn't get
good grades; I feel guilty when I get job opportunities I worked for when
other people who also worked didn't get similar opportunities.

On a larger scale, I feel guilty that I make more money than (some large
percentage over 50%) people out there who work just as hard as I do. I
feel guilty that I come from a middle class home and enjoy white middle
class benefits.  

On the other side, I resent it when I work hard for something and I don't
get it and someone else does.  (My roommate, with the same educational
background and same interests and who worked just as hard as I did in college
got a job doing what I wanted to do making 5K more a year than I did, and
yeah, I envy her, and yeah, as much as I don't like it, that envy does leak
over into jealousy and resentment.)  

And I resent the people who make more money than me working just as hard and
the people who come from upper-middle to upper class homes and enjoy
white upper-class male benefits.

So like a woman...

*sigh*

D!

    But...
    
    In what way are these feelings "like a woman?"
    
    Surely most people, male or female, empathise with their friends 
    and are sorry when they don't get what they hope for.
                  
    And I'm sure a lot of men in good jobs have the imposter/'lucky devil' 
    feeling about them, and the niggling worry that some day they'll be
    found out.                          
    
    Liam
    

    Feeling guilty is interesting, but not strange.  We've just recently
    arrived at this jungle and are still clearing a path.    
    
    With my last two promotions (within 5 months) I felt bad because so 
    many of my female friends at DEC not only weren't getting promoted, one 
    of they didn't even get a salary increase at the end of her annual review 
    (they "forgot" about her).  One of them kept talking about my "good"
    luck and her "bad" luck.  Yeah, that's the ticket.  I had nothing to do
    with it, it's "luck".  
    
    Getting my new job (50% increase in salary just walking in the
    door) has also resulted in my feeling guilty/bad around my female
    friends.  They are still in the same jobs, more responsibility/duties,
    same pay, same companys.  Why me, why not them?  Part of it is their
    belief that if they are "good" (good = don't argue, do as you're told,
    etc.) promotions/raises/recognition/new jobs will be dropped in their 
    laps by daddy (also known as their boss/manager).  
    
    Even my own family has reacted strangely to this last career move of mine.  
    (I'm making more than my baby brother now or so he informed me in a strange
     voice over the phone when I called to give him my good news, my other
    brother told me I had "balls" to go out and find another job with the
    job market the way it is right now).
     
    The business world is still considered an "aggressive" "masculine" world.  
    Therefore if you are successful, you can't be a "real" woman?    
    
    I've increased my salary almost 400% in 7 years, but, I have no boyfriend,
    no husband, no children.  I can hear my aunts lamenting from across the 
    river in N.Y.C. now, "Poor Miriam still isn't married, she reads too much".
    The funny part is they wonder why I don't come visit them more often.  
    When I do, I feel like a freak for days.  
    
    It's hard enough dealing with my own fears (Oh god/dess, now I have to go 
    out and buy Joan Crawford shoulderpads!) and guilt (am I being a good
    daughter - finding a new job to save money to make a home for my Mom
    and myself here in n.j. after Daddy dies, or should I have moved to P.R. 
    to be with them for this last 6 months and tried to make a career in
    P.R.?).
    
    I take it one day at a time.  I try not to take things too much to
    heart.  I read lots of books by women about working/career women (not
    that I agree with all of it, but knowledge is power).  I play the radio
    real loud in the car and sing at the top of my lungs with the window
    rolled down.  I play with kittens, feed outside cats, sit on my steps
    and watch the sun come down whilst drinking large glasses of iced tea
    and take moon baths in my backyard.   Then when it's time to do
    something (ask for more money, go for a promotion, disagree with a
    manager, find a new job), I light candles, say prayers, take cleansing
    baths, read appropriate books, try to get ahead of the fear and DO IT!
    
    Miriam   

    I don't think Annie is talking about feeling sorry for her friend. She
    is talking about feeling guilty because she (Annie) is successful in
    some ways that her friend is not. Of course, I could have misunderstood
    her.
    
    I feel like that very often when I'm with my
    single-but-aspiring-to-be-in-relationship friends. I feel guilty for
    being happily married and I wonder if anything that I say might feel
    condescending.
    
    I also felt like that when I got into a good college and some of my
    friends didn't.
    
    manisha

    I can't tell you how happy I am to hear that, Annie!
    
    
    E Grace "Red" Noonan
    
    female
    BLOOD GROUP: A 
    Rh FACTOR: +
    HLA type: A11, A26, B38, B51

    
    
    Why is it "so like a woman" to feel guilty?
    
    I can honestly say that I have never felt any guilt regarding something
    someone else has done.
    
    I have never felt guilty of my accomplishments.  In fact I  have always
    felt very proud of them because I know that I have worked hard to get
    them.  What is this guilt thing??
    
    Michele

I do think that feeling guilty for succeeding is predominantly a woman
thing.

This doesn't mean all women feel it or that no women do, just that many
women do and not many men do.

I don't know where it comes from.  (Well, I do, but that is a subject for
a different note..)=.)

For many women (myself included) guilt is a major factor in our lives,
a major motivator.  Occasionally I meet a woman who is not ruled by guilt
and it amazes me.

My girlfriend is one of those people.  Sometimes it creates a great rift
between us. The other day we were talking about something, I think homeless
people, and I offhandedly commented that one of the reasons homeless people
make me uncomfortable is because they make me feel guilty. She stared at
me like I was crazy and said "Why?"  I stared back and said "if you don't
understand, I can't explain."  There was an unbridgeable gap in understanding.

Michele, if you don't know what "this guilt thing" is about, I can't explain
it; just trust me that it is real, it is pervasive, and you are lucky you don't
experience it.

D!

I changed my mind; this is the note to talk about the *source* of the guilt.

I think what it comes down to is that societal expectations of women are
that women are always doing things for *others*. The perfect woman is the one
who takes all the world's pain away; if she does so by taking it into herself,
so be it.

Basically, a woman is defined by her ability to be a mother, and the perfect
mother is the perfect martyr.

So, if a woman is happy while there are people who are less happy, then she
is failing her job as a woman.  She is failing to meet society's demands that
she give of herself until there is nothing left to give.  So she feels guilty.

I think some women have internalized these expectations more than others.

D!

>Is this 'just like a woman?'

I'm in agreement with D!--sounds like the stereotype of the caring,
nurturing woman/mother who's been socialized to put others ahead of
herself.  It's a tough one to get over because we probably want to hang on
to a lot of the caring and nurturing for others, but be able to feel good
about our own successes.  Lot of conflict.  Lot of overlap.

Now that the subject has come up, I realize I don't feel guilt as much as
awe and gratitude for my good fortune.  I'm pretty sure part of this is
because most of my "successes" are due as much to serendipity as to hard
work. [I suppose a more natural reaction might be to feel even more
guilt--for getting "something for nothing"--but what's the use?  Gee, I never
realized my laziness could be such a boon! 8*)]

I think the feeling of guilt arises when *both* people seem to put in
the same level of effort, but get differing levels of results.  If life
were fair, roughly-equal-amounts of effort and hard work would result
in roughly-equal-amounts of success, wouldn't they?

lazy and spring feverish,
nla                                                                       

I don't think it's a particularly "female" thing either. I'm reminded of the
Jules Pfeiffer cartoon:

	"You're a fraud Irwin Corpulent. We've found you out, and we've
	come to take it all away."

	And so I packed my things up and left. After all, when they find
	you out, what can you do?

[Roughly paraphrased.]

This is the "imposter syndrome" mentioned earlier, and it's pretty universal.

	-- Charles

	Charles Edmund Haynes Junior
	305 Lytton Avenue
	Palo Alto, CA 94025-1616
	DTN 543-1504 (415) 688-1504
	34 years old, male, married for 4 years, lived together about 15
	two cats, native californian, queer, radical, half Japanese, long
	hair, one earring
	Kinsey: 2
	ABO group: O
	Rh type: +
	CMV: +
	HLA: A2, A24, B51, BW52, BW4
	Net worth: $200,000.00
	S&P rating: AAA
	P/E multiple: 40
	LTV: 80%
	Cars: BMW and Subaru
	Hobbies: Rock climbing, Downhill skiing, Whitewater rafting, Bungee
		jumping, and yanking peoples' chains

	Bear code: Bh(0) f-- t+ w- s++ h- r+ p+

    to clarify:
    
    I do _not_ feel guilty about my successes.  I feel proud, thrilled,
    vindicated, damn fabulous, ... you get the picture.
    
    I don't care if it's luck, hard work, or connections ... I _love_ to
    succeed.  No guilt, no strings.
    
    I don't feel guilty for what I have.
    
    I feel guilty when others _don't_ get, have, win ... like I _should_
    have had something to do with it ... I _hate_ that.
    
    [of course Mothers un-ending refrain of "Annie you're a thoughtless,
    selfish creature who has never had a kind thought for another living
    being and I doubt ever will" doesn't help a whole hell of lot]
    
      Annie-Luise Siobhan Johnston-Carlyle 
       [no it's not in ELF like that]
      1 husband, 2 cats, many friends, not-from-around-here
      O+, FDP, Greenpeace, ...

    Annie,
    
    It's called Survivor's Syndrome.  ~Why did I survive/succeed/win
    when she/he/so many who was/were so worthy did not?~  The next
    question is (naturally) ~Shouldn't I be doing *more* of whatever
    to have retroactively earned my victory?~
    
    It's all very human.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    where the woman/guilt thing comes from
    
    D.

    >where the woman/guilt thing comes from [Eve]
    
    Nah, too easy.  I think the cause and effect relationship is backwards.
    The guilt came first.  Then Eve/Pandora/all the others stories that
    place the original wrongness on woman.
    
    D!

    
    - .1
    
    Hm, I wonder ... I think it was with Eve that it (women = evil -->
    women's guilt) got into the media, big time. In the West, that is. And 
    the rest is history ...
    
    D.

    But the "Eve" story was written because the concept of woman=evil was
    already a palatable and reassuring (?) concept to "the masses".  It
    wasn't like the story of Genesis was written and everyone said "You
    mean a woman started it all?  What a shock!  Whoulda thunk?!?"  More
    like "Yeah, makes sense..."  
    
    I think myths are more of a reflection of a culture than what creates
    it.  Misogyny predates Christianity/western thought.  Though, of
    course, there is a feedback relationship between a culture's myths and
    it's society.
    
    D! 

    read "reinventing eve" by Kim Chernin (I think it's her) to see new
    interpretations of the mythos surrounding Eve.
    
    -Jody
    

    as far as I can understand it, in early Christianity women were
    accepted as equals with men, some women were priests (Paul even
    refers to one in Romans), and some were even Bishops.  In the
    3rd century, a group of men decided that women priests and bishops
    were heresy and they were banned.
    
    It was, I belive, then, that the foundations, for the 'woman as evil'
    theology began its ascendance in the church.
    
    Bonnie

    
    Re .20
    Jody - thanks for happening to mention the author of "Reinventing
    Eve"! It so happens that I've been looking for a copy for months
    having just glimpsed it on someone's bookshelf - not knowing the
    author didn't help me. (Rumour has it it's outta print :-(
    
    My theory is that, one fine day, someone noticed that men and womyn
    were DIFFERENT.
    This was at first a cause for puzzlement and speculation.
    Then it grew into a cause for celebration and valuing.
    Then "difference" came to be seen as threatening.
    The threat may have been seen by both genders, but with society being
    as it is the views that mattered were the views of the leaders/those
    in power in the social structure of the time. This led to the
    political rationalisations that Cheyenne mentioned, along with the
    usual methods of propaganda and "retrospecitive history editing"...
                                                                      
    We can see in this conference the many different reactions that
    difference triggers in people of either gender, and the various
    ways that individuals attempt to copy with those powerful feelings...
    
    'gail
    
    

.6
 >>  Getting my new job (50% increase in salary just walking in the
 >>  door) has also resulted in my feeling guilty/bad around my female
 >>  friends.  They are still in the same jobs, more responsibility/duties,
 >>  same pay, same companys.  Why me, why not them?

Because YOU went out and looked for the job and YOU convinced 
your new employer you could do it.

.11
>>I think some women have internalized these expectations more than others.

Does this mean "Some women believe this more than others". ? :-)

Part of this 'guilt' is simple good manners. One doesn't like to be seen
to brag about one's new job when friends are not doing well. Like
when you've got best marks in the class and your best friend failed (Oops)

Jane (Guiltless - even though brought up a catholic !)