Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    - .1
    
    What did you friend say the definition was?
    
    D.

    
    re .0:
    
    I hate religious discussions!  This reminds me of the "fundamentalist"
    Christians telling the politcally-liberal Christians that they're
    not "real" Christians.  It's like a slap in the face.  Pooh on them!
    
    The dictionary definition says a feminist is anyone who "advocates
    the political, social, and economic equality of men and women."
    
    Just like the real definition of a Christian is "one who believes that
    Jesus is God", and has nothing to do with their stand on abortion or
    any other issue.
    

    Jeeze, there are so few women who will admit to the "F" word, 
    that I'll accept any that want to call themselves that.
    
    To me a Feminist is a person who is committed to equality for women and
    men.
    
    I have read of the different classes of Feminists...but I can't
    remember where.  The classes started at Baby Feminists and went up
    as the Feminist got more glass-chewing.
    
    If someone wants to label themselves, who am I to tell them
    differently?
    
    judy

    
    
    RE: .3
    
    I live my life according to the definition of the word "feminist" that
    you find in the dictionary.......but I find that with the word
    feminist, as with many other words in our language, it's dictionary
    meaning is not the same as it's meaning to a majority of the people in
    our society.
    
    I'd rather "explain" my views, than simply label myself.
    
    kath

    They did not say what it was.  They just said that some of my
    opinions were not "feminist" and ephasized the fact that FEMINISTS
    think a certain way.  Kinda felt a little exclusive.  
    
    My views?
    Abortion - as a woman chooses (her Church/religeon/agnostetism/atheism
    as her personal referenc point) depending on her needs and
    capabilities.
    
    Men- Let them drive the car (to avoid the argument).
    Only kick them in the ego when they REALLY ask for it (they can
    be so sensitive).
    Support them when it would be mutually beneficial to do so.
    
    Lesbian/Hetero/Bi- Use what you have to get what you need.
    
    Rape- Not a joking matter.  I used to say castration, but that was
    a bit harsh, so know I propose painfull restraint.  Consistent
    painfull restraint.  Unless they like that, in which case castration
    will do.
    
    Glass Ceilings in business- People beneath glass ceilings should
    throw stones.
    
    Battered Wives- Male electroshock.  Maybe feminine trigger stun
    guns.
    
    Generally I hope there is a medium between outright confrontation
    and total appeasement that will keep me from dying early from a
    stroke.  It may not be true.  But I can dream.
    
    Cindi

    Well, I certainly agree that I try to live my life as a Feminist and be
    a good example by my actions.
    
    But there are a lot of people who don't understand the dictionary
    definition and think it means that I'm a "man-hater"  This is evident
    when in so many interviews a woman says, "No, I'm not a Feminist."  The
    last woman I heard do this was Connie Chung.  (Hell, it's evident in
    this file at times.)
    
    Being a Feminist is something I'm proud of, I don't apologize for it.
    
    But we're off the track of the original note.
    
    judy

    set mode/primal_scream
    
      EEEEEEEEEEEEEEOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWAARRRRRGGGGH!!!!!
    
      <pant> <pant>
    
    set mode/Annie_again
    
    'Real Feminists' are a myth.  I have days when I think the 'real
    feminist' issue is a divide and conquer ploy.  Any energy diverted to
    the hassles over who can play and who can't and stuff and stuff won't
    be used advancing the goals of equality and fairness.
    
    'Real Feminists' are people who say they are feminists.  Arguments
    about the order of changes and who has the 'best' agenda are, likewise,
    mis-direction.
    
    It doesn't bl**dy matter what a 'Real Feminist' is.

    see also (set tone=core-dump)
    
    womannotes-V1
    369 - who is not a feminist
    511 - feminist conciousness
    750 - feminism??? help.
    
    Womannotes-V2
    178 - what is a fmeinist
    475 - men as feminists
    651 - the myths of feminism - rebuttal
    874 - how has feminism changed your world
    964 - feminist haters
    997 - a new direction for feminism
    
    Womanotes-V3 (this file)
    43 - feminism and the feminist agenda
    100 - male role in feminism - what does that mean?
    403 - putting my feminism where my mouth is
    
    
    -Jody

    I had hit feminist humor 86, and 403-
    I will check the rest to see how they apply to some feminists and
    their exclusion of some women from their agenda.
    
    i.e. - 
    
    Can you be a feminist and be a prostitute?
    
    Can you be a feminist and be a wife?
    
    Can you be a feminist and wear 4 inch heels and silk stockings?
    
    Can you be a "breeder" and be a feminist?
    
    and why do some people discount your opinions or disparage you
    if you do.
    
    Cindi

    As I have said before in this and other incarnations of womannotes.
    
    I think Feminism is about choice.  Being able to choose whether you
    want to be a housewife or an engineer or a lunar environmentalist or a
    secretary or a jockey or a news reporter or a technical writer.  I
    believe my feminism to be a movement towards having the freedom
    inherent in society to be able to make that choice, whatever you wish
    to be,  whatever you wish to do or wear or dream ("an it harm none, 
    do what you will") with no negative repercussions or obstacles.  
    
    That's all there is.  Everything else is a facet of the above.
    
    -Jody
    

Annie and Kathy are right.  The label isn't important, the issues are
important.  Fighting over the label diverts energy and damages the
individuals who fight.  I call myself a feminist and laugh at people
who try to prove to me I'm not.  And I don't let them waste my time.
Don't let someone else waste your time, Cindi.

And Jody is right, too; freedom for all people to choose their own
life's course is paramount.  Feminism is about changing this society to
the extent that women are as far along towards that goal as men are.

DougO

    
    In a somewhat rathole-ish vein . . . 
    
    I would like to recommend a book, _Pursuit of the English_, by 
    Doris Lessing.  In fact, it is especially a portion of this book 
    I recommend, a chapter called, I think, "In pursuit of the 
    Working Class."
    
    It's about a decade since I read the book, but that chapter remains
    a constant reminder of the folly of seeking the *real* working 
    class, or the *real* socialists, or the *real* feminists.
                       
    Though labels are useful and important, I think purism is an 
    elusive fantasy.
    

    
    what if you'll only chew crystal?
    
    D.

The way you can distinguish a real feminist is that you can fit a whole lot more
of them on a line than you can fit integer feminists.

    re.13
    
    _you_ can chew crystal if you want; but practically speaking the shards
    won't hold their velocity over distance.
    
    then, as (|) peggy would say: 'real feminists spit nails, glass shards
    	      |			   are for wimps ...'
    
      Annie

     
    
         Who is this person that can say that you are not a _________ or you
    are a __________.  Are we sheep?  Those who listen to someone elses 
    ideas on who or what they are, deserve what they get.

    but are they polished nails?  red?  cinnamon?  pearly pink?
    
    real feminists can choose whether or what they spit, when, and how far.
    
    -Jody

    Cindi,
    
    My initial response to your questions was:
    
    			(Who has the right to judge who is feminist enough?)
    
    I do.
    
    						(Who is a real feminist?)
    
    You are.
    
    Next?
    
    
    
    This was a bit breezy, but I notice that the other replies have the
    same implication:  There is no True Authority.  and  You are doing
    fine.
    
    					Ann B.
    

    It is rough, however, when you respect the majority of the
    individuals opinions.  It is hard to perceive that the 
    person could be so enlightened about so many things, and 
    still perform deliberately devisive acts towards friends.
    
    Or maybe they just don't realize huh?
    
    Cindi

    re.8  My answers, others' no doubt vary ...
    
    > Can you be a feminist and be a prostitute?
    
      Yes, it's your body.  Renting it out should be _your_ choice though.
      [obviously, there are a _lot_ of abuses that could be discussed
       elsewhere]
    
    > Can you be a wife and be a feminist?
    
      Yes.  I am married [to a man] and I self-identify as feminist.  There
      are more people who say I'm not a 'real _wife_' than there are who
      say I'm not a 'real feminist.'  Go figure.
    
    > Can you be a "breeder" and be a feminist?
    
      I'm tempted to say that anyone who calls _any_ woman a "breeder"
      _isn't_ feminist -- given that the capacity to bring forth young is
      one of the differences that women share.  Personally, I find the term
      offensive as it seems to call up an image of me, as a heterosexual
      woman, as nothing more than a 'mindless walking incubator' -- the
      misogynistic imagery and objectification are staggering.
    
      But, as a self-identified feminist who has born children, I'd have to
      say "yes."
    
    As to your final question, I haven't the dimmest, dullest notion of why
    people are so hateful to one another in a common cause.  Comes a time,
    though, when the tyranny of conformity/orthodoxy overwhelms us in the
    need to present a united front.
    
      Annie

In my mind, a 'real feminist' is a) a person who chooses to
identify her/himself as such, and b) does
question someone else's self-identification as a feminist.

My choice, also, is to look inside myself to decide what to
call myself, not to worry about what others may attach to the
word.  So I consider myself a 'real' (or at least virtual) feminist.

Feminism is (in part) getting away from the divisivism that compells people
to label one another as Real or...what, Fake?

The word is meaningless.  It is what you do and who you are that counts.

D!

                (-)
                 |

				Only people can be feminists, and all
				people are real.

    I was asked for a clarification on .8, however, the node
    the request came from was unreachable.  So I will reply here.
    
    The point of .8, for me was to display some of the places/positions
    that I have seen people taking in various positions in this note
    file and life about feminists.
    
    eg- In one case a woman was defending herself for her right
    to wear heels.  If a man had told her she had to wear heels
    to be accepted in a certain sphere, all of womannotes would 
    have objected to it as an unreasonable impositon of his will
    on her.  If a man had told her she COULD NOT wear heels
    and be accepted in a certain sphere, all of womannotes would
    again have objected to this unreasonabl impositon of his
    will on her.  Yet at the same time I find that women will do
    this to THEIR own and not think a second thing about it.
    
    If a man had told her she was brainwashed, and that is why
    she wore heels, she could have viewed that as an offensive
    remark on her ability to decide what she wants to do.  Womannotes
    would have a lot of advice on how to counter men who second
    guess women and their mental capabilities. 
    
    However, I have SEEN WOMMANOTERS and/or real life self professed
    feminists make the same assumptions and statements to women.
    Individuals are telling you what to wear, what to say, how
    to live, what sexual orientation is preferrable, to make them
    "acceptable" co-advocates for women's causes.
    
    I checked the Hug note, and the Flotation tank, and it would seem
    from there, that we were a supportive and open minded crew.  Dedicated
    to addressing the wrongs perpetrated on people, but more specifically
    women.  Then I see some of the "real feminists don't" rhetoric
    and I wonder if we are different at all. 
    
    I had thought we were better than that.
    
    I thought by posing familiar questions within the context of the
    "Real Feminist" question, some people might recognize that they
    are isolating their own sisters. 
    
    It may have been derivative-
       so I will say it clearly-
    
       I wish some of us were less restrictive towards members of our
       own sex.  Perhaps, after that, we could get to be less
       insecure about the other one.
    
    Cindi

    
    Re -1
    
    Cindi,
    
    >   I wish some of us were less restrictive towards members of our
    >   own sex.  Perhaps, after that, we could get to be less
    >   insecure about the other one.
    
    I see your point.
    
    My take on this is that there are always individuals and groups
    of individuals who try to impose their view of the world on others.
    
    It may be men imposing on womyn, or vice versa. It may be advertising
    pressuring marketed sectors, it maybe some womyn pressuring other
    womyn or men pressurising other men. It's everywhere.
    For me, it's not just a male/female split, and its not just these
    groups split by gender who show intolerance for the "other"....
    
    One of the things that I love about this conference is that I
    find it to be a place where I can learn to become conscious of,
    and  push back on, *any* kind of behaviour that *any* others are 
    trying to impose on me. I can try out my fledgling assertiveness - 
    I can say things that I might not have the courage to say to colleagues, 
    and learn from reactions (and learn from watching others do the same thing).
    
    We all are entitled to our views, but if we could stop pushing
    them onto others through language or attitudes that say "you should",
    "you ought", "you must", then we'd all have more freedom to grow.
    
    I've never been able to understand why, if someone has found a set
    of beliefs that are right for them, they should have this desire
    to impose those views on others on the basis that it must be
    right for them also.
    
    'gail
    In here, I am learning how to win the freedom to be me.
    
     
    

Referencing 759.23 (Cindi):

   Thank you for your entry. Your points are the same ones I have been 
trying to make in Topic 22 for these past few weeks.

   Maybe you will be listened to.

                                                 -Robert Brown III

    
    How about a different label.. (and that's what the issue is, is labeles
    and categories and stuffing people into 'em)
    ... gylanist !!
    
    which like , um, I think it was about .5 or so, believes in promoting
    the individualism of BOTH women and men, and promoting those values
    which I will label (darn it! can't resist) as nuturing and creative.
    
    The word is from the "Chalice and the Blade" and relates to an earlier
    value system which appears to have been a partnership, rather than
    either patriarchal OR  matriarchial.
    
    I was very happy to find this book and the knowledge that another
    alternative existed.  My feminisism has (i hope) been based on this
    model.  I don't enjoy being treated as a lesser being.  I can't imagine
    a man would either.  But we COULD meet in the middle!
    
    
    +jamd
    
    

    re:.0

    Real feminists use their brains, all the robo-feminists seem to
    do is stand around chanting the feminist mantras.

    				L.J.

    It seems that among my friends a "feminist" would be a female who is a
    "woman" before a person rather "a person who happens to be female".
    
    Not meant to be deragatory, just an observation.
    
    Lisa

What is a feminist? I am a feminist.

    It seems that among my friends a "feminist" would be a female who is a
    "woman" before a person rather "a person who happens to be female".
    
    Not meant to be deragatory, just an observation.

I don't want to be a woman. Your friends seem sexist.

	-- Charles

> we're both applying the label to ourselves without elucidation.

No no Dick, a feminist is someone who acts like me. :-)

Seriously. As I apply the label, a feminist is someone who believes in the
innate equality of men and women and who works to see that equality reflected
in their lives and the society they live in. So we agree. Surprise. Note that,
as a feminist, I believe it is as important for men to be encouraged to
express themselves in areas considered traditionally feminine as it is for
women to be encouraged to excel in traditionally masculine areas. Also given
my belief that women have been denied much more of their potential in
structural ways in our society I work to change those structures. The ways
that men are denied are more attitudinal and so the work is often less visible,
but no less important.

	-- Charles

    >It seems that among my friends a "feminist" would be a female who is a
    >"woman" before a person rather "a person who happens to be female".
    
    I could no more seperate my "person-ness" from my "woman-ness" than 
    I could seperate who I am from my body and mind.  My being a woman is
    as integral a part of *me* as my heritage and the environment I grew up
    in.
    
    Does that make me a feminist?
    
    D!
    
    				(-)
    				 |
    
    					Human vs. Woman is a false dichotomy -
    					I am as much human as woman and as
    					much woman as human.  

D!, nobody who uses the Peggy Leedberg symbol could call themselves
anything but a feminist.  'Dem's the rules.

    re .9, D! I feel this way, too, as far as being a woman and being
    human.
    
    I'm not sure if I think it's fair for feminists who have been
    especially politically active (been to a lot of marches, joined groups,
    etc.) to say that people who believe that men and women should have
    completely equal opportunities but haven't been politically active are
    not feminists.  (Does that mean that Black people who have never
    marched should really consider themselves Black?  "I know I look black
    but I'm really not, as I've never been actively involved in the Civil
    Rights Movement?")  I really hate elitism, which doesn't take into
    consideration that everyone has reasons for what they have or haven't
    done.
    
    Lorna
    

    Black people who haven't marched, protested, boycotted, etc. usually do
    not get the "coveted" term "activist". Some people include "activist"
    as part of the meaning of feminist. Some of those same people call
    non-activist feminists "closet" feminists, i.e. professing the ideology
    but not acting on it.
    
    But there are more ways to act on your beliefs than just the highly
    visible ways. Rosa Parks probably did not think of herself as an
    activist. She just knew she was tired, and didn't feel like standing on
    the f*ckin' bus.

(.12)Lorna, and (.13) Ren, I agree.  Is my mother a feminist, an activist?  She
has overcome a childhood of poverty, and of being told she was ugly, and lack of
education; she has held a wide variety of interesting and responsible jobs 
outside the home, maintained her own interests and activities, raised four kids
to some semblance of adulthood, eventually forced my dad to reform some of his
more objectionable ways (I love him, he's a good man, but like all of us, a
flawed beauty).  She has never gone in for political activism -- she has only
lived her life.

We need all of us.

Similarly, I have joined no organizations, marched no marches (well, since the
Vietnam era), paid no dues.  My stand is as an Independent (official registered
status :-), my ideal one of the free choice of individuals.  I count myself
a feminist, since I think that women's freedoms and rights are part and parcel
of the freedoms and rights of individuals.

Feminism to me means expanding the choices available to women.  To the extent
that the women's movement has explicitly or implicitly denigrated certain of
the more traditional choices "non-PC", it has been a reactionary movement.  To
the extent that it has enlarged the range of choices, it has been wonderful.

re:.35

While I am by no means an expert, I do know a lot about Mrs. Rosa Parks, as 
she is one of the people for whom my daughter is named.

Mrs. Parks (the "Mrs.", btw, is how she prefers to be addressed) had been,
and, I believe, was at the time, the secretary/treasurer of the local
NAACP chapter.  That's hardly not an activist thing to be in Montgomery.

(I also know that she was trained in non-violent civil disobediance at
the Highlander School, but don't know if that happened before or after
her refusal to yield her seat in the "colored section" of the bus
to a white man).

It suited the purposes of someone -- probably the so-called "Northern
liberal establishment" -- for the myth to be perpetuated that she
was a "little ol' cleaning lady" who was too tired to get up and refused in
a fit of pique.  Also that she sat down in the "whites only" section of the
bus, rather than the truth, which was that she was trying to point out
the hypocrisy of "separate but equal", as part of the Jim Crow laws
said that when the white folks ran out of "white" seats, they were free
to displace Black people from theirs.

In reality, Mrs. Parks was in the prime of her life (40's), was a skilled 
seamstress at a downtown Montgomery department store, and was part of a 
group of incredibly brave Black people who were prepared to execute
individual acts of civil disobedience when the opportune moment arrived.

I could go on, but I'll stop now.

(I also have some things to say on "Real Feminists", but I'll spare you those
now.:-)

Bobbi "deadlines don't  keep me from honoring the real heras of the world" Fox

    I'll explain the reasoning behind my response.
    
    When asked "What is a feminist?" I gave the answer that I felt
    explained what the people in my circle might answer.  I didn't mean it
    to say, "This is a feminist, no questions asked."
    
    Many of the people I have as my friends have views that fit into 
    the broad definitions of feminism (small f).  But they don't see
    themselves as "Feminists" (large F).  When you would ask them what is a
    feminist they would see the question as "What is a Feminist (large F)".
    They think of feminism as defined by the most outspoken Feminists.
    They see Feminism as a movement where the first criteria is what sex
    you are, then we'll get to the other things.
    
    If a woman came up to them and said "I'm a softball player and I'd like
    to play on your team" they'd say "Fine, we need a first baseman."
    But if someone came up to them and said "I'm a WOMAN softball player,
    and I'd like to play on your team", they'd say "Fine, we need a first
    baseman" and she'd play, but there would always be a wall of she's a
    WOMAN first baseman, as opposed to a generic first baseman, and there
    would always be that feeling of "She's DIFFERENT".  I guess the
    argument comes up whether you'd care to be DIFFERENT or not, and that's
    where a lot of the "Are you a Feminist, feminist, or other" debate
    comes in.
    
    And one thing I've seen first hand, especially with the males I know is
    that if you constantly identify as, "I am a WOMAN this and a WOMAN
    that" they tend to feel as if they don't belong. Now that comment will
    surely start the flaming here as to whether that's an issue (i.e.
    this is womanspace anyway of course they don't belong) but for MY
    opinion here (notice MY OPINION) I have some very good male friends
    and I don't want to alienate them, because to me a good friendship 
    doesn't necessarily fall along sex lines.  It is more important for me
    to have a good friend than to make sure that I have a good FEMALE
    friend.  But that's just the way I feel.
    
    To wrap this whole thing up, whatever sex you are, if you're constantly
    making every issue into a male/female standoff, you stand a much larger
    chance of being labelled with an "-ist" term and alienating people in
    my social group.  There are some issues like rape which are obviously
    male/female issues.  But if someone needs help building shelving for
    the record library at a radio station, who cares what sex you are! Can
    you drive a nail in? Good, here's a hammer.  Can you hold a paintbrush?
    Here this needs painting.  Is there sawdust on the floor?  Here's the
    vacuum.
    
    Maybe I'm spoiled in that I've never encountered discrimination, so
    I've never had to turn trivial issues into war of the sexes.
    
    Lisa 

    
    But, Lisa, some might say that the term "first baseman" is an example
    of a male/female standoff.  Now I realize the term developed before
    there were women saying that they wanted to play first base, but I
    think some women feel they can slip right into an open slot, and
    some women feel that they have to make woman-sized slot first, if that
    makes sense.  How often have you heard the phrase "woman lawyer?"
    How about "male lawyer?"  How often have you heard the phrase "male
    nurse?"  "female nurse?"  The fact that it seems natural or necessary
    to add a gender-descriptive modifier to some words (words that really don't
    have gender attached to them (e.g. contrast firstbaseMAN with lawyer))
    suggests to me that there *are* still assumptions about who is
    appropriate for certain kinds of roles/jobs, and I think some of us
    experience and respond to that more openly than others.
    
    The point I'm trying to make is that the world that most of us (men and
    women) see as "normal" is extremely male shaped, male defined; and it
    just doesn't fit for all of us.  
    
    Justine

    the concept of feminism for me comes from my heart....that is for me
    as a person to add value to other people lives....in any way that I 
    can....and that reaches here at work and at my home....I'm not sure
    how that can be label....it's what it means to each and everyone of
    us...
    
    denise