Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Last year "Thirty-something" had an episode which had 2 gay men in bed
    together. The next day at work one of my co-workers (a manager) was in
    a cube near mine and was talking about it. She was saying how
    "repulsive" it was and how they were "talking about AIDS" while in bed
    together. I sat in silence and wanted to crawl under my desk. I never
    did anything about it. I wasn't as out at work as I am now.  I was
    angry with myself for a few weeks thereafter for not doing anything
    about it.
    
    Just one encounter amoung the many...
    
    Laurie

    I sometimes wonder if, when people see me hugging a woman friend in the
    hall they think I'm a lesbian.  
    
    Sometimes it bothers me a little that they might think this and tell
    people, not because it's bad, but because I'm not a lesbian.  
    
    Of course, this doesn't stop me from hugging woman friends, it just
    makes me think.
    
    -Jody
    

    If hugging a person of the same gender makes one gay or lesbian, this
    would mean 90 or more percent of the sportspeople are gay or lesbian.
    
    I myself give and receive hugs from other men when we hear our results
    during dancing competitions and none of us or the bystanders think any
    off it.
    
    Charles_who's_happily_married.

    
    Last Friday evening, my family was attending an Irish revue at a
    restaurant.  The entertainer made jokes or simply banter between each
    of the numbers.  It was a jovial event.  Then, he did something that
    spoiled the evening for me.  He made a crack about Mayor Dinkins
    walking with the gay/bisexual/lesbian contingent in the New York Saint
    Patricks' Day parade.  My sister Pat also picked up on it, and she
    later said something to him privately.  I was very proud of her,
    especially since she is a Catholic nun and the Church is frequently
    touted as one of the causes of continuing homophobia. 
    
    My own pledge ... what little I can do.... is to call the radio talk
    shows when an incident of gay bashing takes place, to protest such
    incidents.  I think if each of us were to do the same, it would become
    less "acceptable" for lesser slights such as the rude joke and greater
    problems such as assault and battery to continue.
    
    With all the anti-discrimination and minority protection legislation
    nationwide, homosexuals and bisexuals seem to be the single target
    group where discrimination is still openly condoned.
    
    my .02,
    Marge

    Last summer I found myself in a slightly awkward (slightly funny)
    situation.  I bought two of the Dykes To Watch Out For comic books at a
    women's book store in Provincetown, and when I brought them up to the
    cash register the clerk asked me if I wanted a "Lesbian discount."  I
    didn't know what to say.  I didn't want to say, Yes, because I felt
    that I had no right to it since I'm not really a Lesbian.  But, I
    didn't want to say, No, because I thought that might sound homophobic. 
    So, I just said,
    "Um...um....um....um...ah....hmmm....ah....well....um...ummm...I guess
    not..."  and then I felt really embarrassed.  What should I have said? 
    I was tongue-tied trying not to offend anyone!!!!
    
    Lorna
    

Well, I been to New Words (near Inman Square on Hampshire Street) in
Cambridge and they haven't growled at me or kicked me out yet.   I
must abmit I was intimidated at first!  But now I feel comfortable
there.  Some women at the counter seem to appreciate that there are
men intererested in women's issues...

peace,
john

Lorna and Jody,

I have a button which says "I would rather have a bigot think I'm a Lesbian
than have a Lesbian think I'm a bigot."  I guess it was more appropriate when
I wasn't a Lesbian. Want it? ;-)

In general, I don't know what to do in situations like Laurie describes. I
hate it!  I am so bad at confronting people.  And yet I feel like a "sell-out"
when I don't respond.  The same thing goes for sexist comments, though - it
is so hard to call someone on something you know is wrong when you are 
face to face with them...

D!

    re .9, yeah, you're right.  I'd hate to have a Lesbian think I'm a
    bigot.  So, you think I should have just said yes?  :-)
    
    Well, I have this coming summer to redeem myself, if they're still
    asking that question, and if there are any new Dykes To Watch Out For
    comics!
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    I think I'd smile and say something like 'no thank you, I'm not
    elligible' :-)
    
    and can I borrow your comics?
    
    Bonnie

    Lorna,  
    	Have some confidence in yourself.  It's OK to say "no, I'm not a
    lesbian" in lesbian space. For sh*t's sake, I have to say "no, I'm not
    straight" in straight space practically every day.  It's really OK
    either way.
    	As to what to do, as a somewhat rampaging feminist and unwilling
    corporate drone, I've struggled a lot with when to say something. 
    Basically, I do whatever I most feel like.  If  I feel like educating
    someone or possible calling someone on a rude move, I do it.  If I've
    got enough stress to deal with and speaking up would just make it
    worse, I don't bother.
    	I just realized recently that I'm not going to be able to correct
    every person who refers to all customers, engineers, managers or
    managing software, etc as "he" or "him".  It was tough to take, but I
    do not want to spend my corporate career interrupting meetings. 
    However, I will continue to do it when I can and when I'm up to it. 
    But, I finally decided it's their issue if they want to be ignorant and
    there are enough things happening that are more threatening that I'll
    deal with the latent ones as I feel up to  it.
    
    Rachael

    Bonnie, 	
    	Not to be a jerk or anything, but what does eligibility have to do
    with it?  To me that just reminds me of women who, every time we say
    we are lesbians, think we want to sleep with them.  The woman at the
    store was not asking her for a date, she was asking her if she was a
    lesbian.
    	The only time I ever had a hard time with that question was when I
    was not all the way out yet, desperately wanted to be, but still had a
    boyfriend whom I wasn't sure what to do with.

    Rachael

    Rachael,
    
    Lorna was asked if she got the lesbian discount, i.e. she would
    pay less for the purchase. This to me is similar to stores which
    give a discount for senior citizens. So in either case if I were
    asked if I got the discount I'd reply that I wasn't eligibile, i.e.
    I don't fit the criterion that would qualify me for the discount.
    
    Bonnie

>    re .9, yeah, you're right.  I'd hate to have a Lesbian think I'm a
>    bigot.  So, you think I should have just said yes?  :-)

Well, it *would* have saved you money!  :-)

But if you don't feel comfortable about that, you could, as Bonnie said, just
say "I'm not elligible, but thanks."  Or, if you want to make sure no one
thinks it isn't a "I'm not one of *them*" reaction, you could look regretful
and say "Unfortunately, I don't qualify".  ;-)

I think the concept of a discount for Lesbians is a weird thing - I mean,
exactly who *is* elligble?  Only women who have never slept with a man?
Women who might someday sleep with a woman?  Only women in monogamous 
permanant relationship with other women?  Curious...

D! who doesn't know how she would answer that question herself
 

    re .16 Is a 'lesbian discount' sexist? I mean, if a man walks in
    and makes a purchase do they ask if he gets the 'gay male' discount?
    (He obviously doesn't qualify for the other kind ;-) )
    
    ( I have this bizare image of gay men and straight men and women 
    pursuing a class action suit against the store for discrimination.
    Might make a good novel...)

guess we need to have some MORE pins and buttons made up, for wearing into
bookstores:

"Sister of Sappho"
"Friend of Sappho's Sisters"
"Friend of a Friend of Sappho"
"A Someday Sister of Sappho?"
"Not Nohow a Friend or Sister of Sappho!"(watched the Wiz of Oz lastnite:-)
"Indifferent to Sappho's Friends and Relatives"

the mind boggles.

    re Bonnie, actually, I *did* think of saying, "I don't think I qualify"
    BUT....I was walking away by the time I thought of it, which figures!
    :-)   
    
    re Rachael, mostly, I think I was just taken aback by being asked.  I
    think I had this, perhaps rather naive, idea that I look so straight
    that, nobody would ever think that I could possibly be a Lesbian.  But,
    now, thanks to reading womannotes I realize that there are Lesbians who
    dress in very feminine clothes.  I wasn't offended, I was just...taken
    aback.  I mean, nobody ever asked me if I was a Lesbian before!  I
    guess I had an idea that the cashier would *know* somehow, just be
    looking at me, that I'm het.  Now, of course, I realize she couldn't.
    
    Actually, what did occur to me to say was, "What's a Lesbian discount? 
    What do you mean?  I've never heard of that before?" but I was afraid
    to because I was afraid I'd be embarrassed by the reaction.  Maybe I
    should have had enough self-confidence to ask it anyway, but I didn't. 
    The store was full of women at the time.
    
    I just remembered that my 16 yr. old niece was with me at the time, and
    her parents are not as, shall I say, open-minded about some things as I
    am.  After we left the store, she told me that she was "grossed out"
    and hoped that the clerk hadn't thought that she and I were
    "girlfriends."  First, I told her if the clerk thought she was my date
    that she must have thought I had gotten pretty lucky because Tami is a
    very cute 16 yr. old, and I was 40 at the time!  Then, I tried to have
    a little talk with her about there being nothing "wrong" with the gay
    and Lesbian lifestyle.  I'm sure that went over well with her
    fundamentalist Christian parents when she got home.  I can just imagine
    them saying, "My God, now Lorna's been telling Tami it's okay to be
    gay.  Who knows what's next?  If she keeps it up we won't dare let her
    take Tami places!!!!"  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Lorna,
    
    I'm sure that the women at WomenCrafts didn't think you were homophobic
    (you were buying _Dykes_to_Watch_Out_for_ -- more than once(!), after
    all), but I'm sorry it was awkward for you.  I imagine that they're
    very careful not to "guess" unless they're pretty sure that the woman
    they're asking is a lesbian, and I guess your buying that book and then
    going back for another one the same day made them feel *certain* they
    had it right.  I wear a gold ring on the ring finger of my left hand,
    and I'm sure that makes some people think I'm straight, because even
    with all other evidence pointing against it, it might look like a "wedding
    ring" to some people.  Of course, dykes can wear gold rings, too, and
    straight women can read and enjoy _Dykes_to_Watch_Out_for_, but we all
    get caught in the rigidity of our ideas from time to time. 
    
    <Aside>
    I love Womencrafts -- their sales receipts say, "Thanks for your
    matronage."
    <EndAside>
    
    Justine
    
    ps Another aside, when I have to fill out a form (other than for taxes
    - I don't mess with those) that asks me to choose "Married" or
    "Single," I've taken to making a new box called "Unmarried" and filling
    in that one.

re: Lorna

You could have told her that although you didn't qualify for the
lesbian discount, you'd be happy with a straight price reduction. ;-)

    in re .20 ;-) x 100

    re .20, cute. :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    
            Lorna,
                       Could it be a "line"?  Seems to me to be an
    interesting way to "come on" to someone while not offending you
    if you weren't interested.  I only say this because its smooth and
    something I would try....er...were I.....uh.....
    
    Dave

	re: .23 (Dave)

	Highly doubtful.  There are some lesbian stores which do,
	indeed, offer a lesbian discount.  Especially in P-town,
	from what I've heard.

	There's a buxom blonde who looks like she should be in a
	Budweiser commercial -- foofy long blonde hair, make-up,
	big boobs, eensy weensy hips, always tan, patriarchicly
	correct -- who wears a "Nobody Knows I'm A Lesbian" shirt
	quite often.  That's one way to confront homophobia!

	Carla

    RE: .24  (Carla)
    
                      :^)  My .23 was *very* tongue-in-cheek.  But then
    again, when you look at it, its not a bad line. 
    
                      This may not be the note for this, but I think its
    terrific that so many lesbians feel comfortable enough here to express
    themselves without fear.  I know the moderator's have worked very hard
    to make this a notes file where all "differences" are accepted and
    respected.  Though I don't *always* agree with them, I think they
    deserve many thanks for this.
    e

    Bonnie,
    	Sorry, I misinterpreted you.  When I got home I told Cyndy about it
    and she saw right away what you had meant.  You're right, that would
    have been a good response.
    	  
    And Lorna,
    	About being taken aback, I can understand that.  Although it's more
    common for me to be taken for straight, I look quite clearly (to the
    lesbian community, back me up on this or not if you've seen me, fellow
    dykes) like a lesbian.  When taken for straight, it will do anything
    from amuse to dismay me, depending on the day and the situation. 
    Mostly it just surprises me, as it's so far from the truth.  Sometimes
    I'm dismayed because I don't want to send the wrong messages!  
    
    Anyways, I didn't realize the pick-up line suggestion was a joke until
    it was stated as so.  I've been to that store to and it's a policy, not
    a pick-up.
    
    Rachael

    re .Dave, no, I didn't think it was a pick-up line.  That would be more
    like something a *man* would do. :-)  But, if it had been I would have
    been flattered because she was quite attractive!
    
    Lorna
    

>I look quite clearly (to the
>    lesbian community, back me up on this or not if you've seen me, fellow
>    dykes) like a lesbian

Rachael, if I passed you on the street, you woulda heard my gay-dar go off
at 100 decibels!!  :-)

D!

    Hi,
    
    This is the first time I contribute to this version of the notes file.
    
    I have a few questions, and I will try very hard to phrase them in such a
    way that no one will get offended, forgive me if my attempt is not
    successful.
    
    I am male, happily married to a wonderful woman. People in my office
    consider me a white male (I was born in sunny Mexico).
    
    I had always felt (prior to starting reading this notes file) that the
    lesbian-gay life style was not "normal". How can I explain it?, kind of
    feeling that if it is not right for me, then it is not normal. But I
    don't feel that way anymore.
    
    I have friends and work with people who are gay-lesbian, I do not feel
    intimidated/out-of-place/uncomfortable/wierd when I am with them, in
    fact I appreciate their experiences and listen and understand them as I
    hear and understand my heterosexual friends/relatives, i.e, I treat all
    human beings the same way I would like to be treated, with respect.
    
    However...
    
    I want you to know that I am not againts the lesbian-gay lifestyle,
    but I am also not quite sure how I would react, for instance
    if my children (in the future, we don't have them now)
    were to be taught at school that this is an alternate lifestyle, and
    that it is "normal".
    
    I would really like to be able to think that I will not have any
    difficulties in the future when this situation comes up (if ever, right
    now we don't have the time to make babies, if you know what I mean??!!)
    
    Like I said before, I try my best to always respect people for what
    they are what they and believe in. And I truly feel deep down in my
    heart that I am not homophobic.
    
    I thank you all for your time, and replies, if any.
    
    ART.

Hey D!, he said he does *not* think he's homophobic. By the way, are you
playing around with the irrational uncontrollable fear thing? I think
homosexist is a more accurate term that homophobia, but "homophobia" *is*
widely used the way he used it. 

Just checking to see where you're coming from.

Kathy

    I've taken to watching Sesame Street lately with my daughter.  Last
    week they had a segment on different types of families.  I was hoping
    that they would show a gay or lesbian family, but not counting on it. 
    Unfortunately, they did not.  
    
    I think this is the ultimate difference in when you become totally
    accepting of another way of life.  It isn't normal or abnormal, but
    different, and I want to see it accepted as a valid way of life.
    
    Any bets on when Sesame Street will include gay and lesbian families
    along with single parents and the "traditional" family?
    
    judy

I bet never.

>    I have friends and work with people who are gay-lesbian, I do not feel
>    intimidated/out-of-place/uncomfortable/wierd when I am with them, in
>    fact I appreciate their experiences and listen and understand them as I
>    hear and understand my heterosexual friends/relatives, i.e, I treat all
>    human beings the same way I would like to be treated, with respect.
    
>    I want you to know that I am not againts the lesbian-gay lifestyle,
>    but I am also not quite sure how I would react, for instance
>    if my children (in the future, we don't have them now)
>    were to be taught at school that this is an alternate lifestyle, and
>    that it is "normal".
   
>    I would really like to be able to think that I will not have any
>    difficulties in the future when this situation comes up (if ever, right
>    now we don't have the time to make babies, if you know what I mean??!!)
    
>    Like I said before, I try my best to always respect people for what
>    they are what they and believe in. And I truly feel deep down in my
>    heart that I am not homophobic.

Art,

If you have gay and lesbian friends and like and respect them, you are
further along the homophobic/acceptance spectrum than many straight people
are. Overcoming the homophobia that is so firmly entrenched in this
society is an ongoing process. If you continue looking into things with
an open mind and spending time with gay and lesbian friends, you will no
doubt overcome more of the homophobia that lingers within.

As for the lesbian-gay "lifestyle".... You'll find a full range of
lifestyles among gay and lesbians, just as you will among heterosexuals.
With luck and education, your children will be more concerned with the
character of individuals they run across in life than in who the
individuals love.

Kathy

kathy,

wasn't playing with the term "homophobic". the problem is that it has two
meanings.  one is the clinical definition (like other phobias) and the other
the common definition (not liking gays.)  I usually/always assume that one
means the latter, but if someone were to say, for instance, "I really like
gays but I am homophobic" I would assume the mean the former definition cause
otherwise it wouldn't make much sense.

D!

    I was walking down Boylston Street last summer with my cousin Tory and
    we were holding hands and putting our heads to together and giggling
    [just like we did when we were teen-agers].  A couple of youths in
    rancid leather took exception to our obvious affection for one another
    and plowed into us breaking us apart. When one of these slimes saw my
    wedding ring, he blushed and started to run. When the one left saw
    Tory's he started hitting her and calling us 'dykes' and 'whores'.
    
    I scratched his neck and bit his ear -- which distracted him enough so
    that Tory was able to deck him.  All three of us were detained, but no
    one who saw the incident came forward to corroborate our [mine &
    Tory's] story that he and a friend has started it.
    
    I think both of us were pretty ashamed that we didn't call her spouse
    Rachael as well I my husband Rick -- we called her mother instead --
    but we wimped.  Given that I was so _obviously_ straight we were let go
    without further ado.  Rachael understood completely, but there was no
    joy in Mudville that night.
    
    It scared me sh*tless.  Mind you I don't care _who_ thinks I'm Tory's
    lover [so long as neither Rachael nor Rick buy into it]; but I mind
    terribly being beaten upon.
    
      Annie

    Annie-
    
    Wimps? You fought back and didn't run away. I won't call you wimps.
    And even if you didn't fight back and/or ran away, it would have been
    for survival reasons. 
    
    Laurie

    Laurie,
    
    We certainly felt pretty good about fighting back.  That wasn't the
    wimpy part.  In retrospect it might have been a bit dumb, but I've no
    regrets.
    
    The wimp part was allowing the dedicated law enforcement professionals
    to think we were both straight.  This may have been the 'wisest' choice
    from a survival standpoint.  But it left us feeling pretty soiled.
    
    Maybe wimp is the wrong word, but I still feel down deep that some
    failure occurred.  That we were both so shaken by the incident that we
    didn't even _consider_ calling Tory's spouse of 9 years who was 10
    minutes away.  Instead, we _immediately_ called Rick, my husband, [from
    Nashua NH] and her mother [from the North Shore] to establish our
    identity as 'normal' people -- a nice married lady and her cousin.
    
    yuck
    
      Annie

    
    Kathy,
    
    Thanks for your reply, I agree that education will play an important
    role in future generations in understanding the differences among us
    all (human beings).
    
    As far as the term homophobic is concerned, I think of it as a label
    that people use, some times correctly, some times not. I'd like to
    think that based on my original reply, people of this forum will not label 
    me as such. I will try very hard to always hear (listen) with and open mind.
    
    Art.

    
    I think homophobia is culturally enforced, and I think we all suffer
    from it to some degree (lesbigays) included.  I like Kathy's term
    homsexist, used to describe behavior.  We can control our behavior, and over
    time, we can change our attitudes, but we are (almost) all taught to
    fear and hate gays, lesbians, and bisexuals.  I know that I am still
    struggling with my own (internalized) homophobia, and I appreciate that
    so many straight men and women are working to challenge their
    homophobia.
    
    The day we see a lesbian or gay male couple on Sesame Street, let's
    have a huge celebration!
    
    Justine
    
    ps  Annie, thanks for fighting back!

>I like Kathy's term
>    homsexist, used to describe behavior.


???

If "heterosexist" means using heterosexuality as the basis for "rightness"
and descriminating against those who deviate, then homosexism would be...

D!

    How about 'misogayism' ?

    Annie,
    
    Why did you have to establish your identity as "normal" people?  You
    were ASSAULTED.  Excuse me but, what the f*ck difference does it make
    who you are?
    
    Mary

    Art,
    
    One thing about your concern about your hypothetical children being
    exposed to positive messages about homosexuality in school.  If your
    kids are straight no amount of exposure is gonna change that, and if
    they're gay they'll grow up with a more positive attitude toward
    themselves than most gays do today.  Either way its a win for your
    kids.
    
    Mary

<                     <<< Note 737.29 by TRCA01::QUIROGA >>>
<
<    I want you to know that I am not againts the lesbian-gay lifestyle,
<    but I am also not quite sure how I would react, for instance
<    if my children (in the future, we don't have them now)
<    were to be taught at school that this is an alternate lifestyle, and
<    that it is "normal".
    
Hey, Art.  I like your note.  You sound like a nice person. 

I was wondering about the above comment.  Let me ask you a similar question:
how would you react if your children were taught (either explicitly or
implicitly) that being gay is "abnormal" and one or more of your children
turned out to be gay?

Most of us *were* taught that, then when we realized that we were gay, it
made it really hard on us.  Some kids can't handle the idea that they are 
the type of person that so many folks think of as "abnormal" or "unnatural."
These kids commit suicide. 

Personally, I like the idea that we Gays do not remain the "unspeakable" at
school, both to help the gay kids and to help kids like my own, who have
parents who are gay.  Children like mine may be shunned because they come from
an "unnatural", "perverted", "unspeakable" family.

What do you think, when looking at it in that light?

         Carol

D!

To some degree, I think the negative feelings some have about lesbigays are
similar to the negative feelings some have about black people. Or about
women. So the closest word I came to racist and sexist was homosexist.

But I'm open to other suggestions! ;-)

Kathy

    re.43
    
    > Excuse me but, what the f*ck difference does it make who you are?
    
    EXACTLY!!!, Mary.  It shouldn't make a _bit_ of difference.
    
    
    > -< So its okay to assault abnormal people >-
    
    This is all to often the practical truth of it.
    
    Until my husband arrived, the police were looking at a 'coupla dyke
    whores' who bit [me] and decked [Tory] an high-spirited, if
    over-zealous, youth.  Rick's wedding-ring and valid NH driver's license
    [which bears the same residential address as my own, whew!] changed
    their tune.
    
    It was 'not nice' to 'pick on' a lesbian couple.  It was wrong of us to
    assault this poor boy.
    
    It was a crime to assault a nice married lady and her cousin.  Sorry,
    ladies for the mis-understanding.  In the tank slime [to him].
    
    We were free to go.  We were too shaken up, scared, and YES ANGRY to
    stick around.  I have a feeling that _I_ was the more dangerous to our
    chances of getting out -- it was the second time in my white, straight,
    upper-class life [the first being the rape] that I was the target of a
    hate crime [and I wasn't physically damaged this time] and I was in
    _no_ mood to be trifled with ...
    
    re. 'thanks' [Justine?]
    
    It feels funny to be thanked for coming to the aid of someone I love
    when the odds were in our favour, but you're most welcome.
    
      Annie

    Did I hear right?  The police believed that you were lesbians because
    the kid said so?

>To some degree, I think the negative feelings some have about lesbigays are
>similar to the negative feelings some have about black people. Or about
>women. So the closest word I came to racist and sexist was homosexist.

Right.  That's the source of "heterosexist".  "homosexist" would be anti
heterosexual, pro-homosexual, which I admit exists, but not much and isn;t
what we are talking about.  "heterosexist" would be anti-homo, pro-hetero
which is exactly what we are talking about.

D!

Annie, you should report this to the folks who take down statistics on
hate crimes.  I believe there is a 1-800 number to do this.
Anyone remember the number?

Send me mail to remind me, if no one adds the number here, Annie, and
I will get it for you.

      Hugs,

        Carol

    re: a few back...i've always wondered about those who claim that
    discussing homosexuality in a non-judgemental way will influence
    impressionable young kids in school. i was exposed to vast amounts of
    pro-heterosexual conditioning, and am still queer as a 3 dollar bill.
    
    hmmm...
    
    ...laura

    my apologies for pushing buttons, but i use a variety of terms to
    describe myself, and will select terms to describe myself as i see fit.
    
    some of them are reclaimed terms of abuse (dyke, queer, etc.), and
    others aren't (e.g. `lesbo hacker computer nerd'). some are clinical
    statements of fact (woman, lesbian, feminist, etc.).
    
    the one thing they have in common is that they are how *i* describe
    *myself*. and if i feel like describing myself in stronger terms than
    you are comfortable with, my apologies.
    
    ...laura

    An interesting twist, this labeling....
    
    I have seen the words "queer" and "dyke" used in this string 
    and other related ones.   My question deals with the acceptability
    of these words/phrases.  I'm sure there are others, but none come
    to mind.  Are these terms acceptable to use when referring to
    gay/bis/lesbians?  I was always under the impression that the terms
    themselves were derogatory as labels or is it a matter of context?
    I hope this isn't offensive to anybody, but I am curious about it.
    If I refer to a gay person, I do so by using the term gay, etc.  What
    are other acceptable terms which won't leave one feeling insulted or
    is it a matter of WHO is making the comment?  Any light that could be
    shed....
    
    Christine
    
    PS-  I know many will say that labels are bad.  I'm only asking because
    they've been used freely in this string and others that are related.

<                      <<< Note 737.55 by ASABET::RAINEY >>>
<    to mind.  Are these terms acceptable to use when referring to
<    gay/bis/lesbians?  

Not unless you are of the same minority.  For instance, I do not tend to use
the word "faggot", because I am not a gay man, even though I am lesbian.
I do use "dyke" sometimes, however.

<I was always under the impression that the terms
<    themselves were derogatory as labels or is it a matter of context?

Used by straight folks, they are derogatory (almost always).  Used by gays,
they usually are used as a "regaining of power."  This is discussed at length
in other notes which discuss language.  You might want to do a dir/title=
on "lang" or "label" or such.

<    What are other acceptable terms which won't leave one feeling insulted or
<    is it a matter of WHO is making the comment?  Any light that could be
<    shed....
    
The best words for a straight person to use, Christine (and I'm assuming that
you are straight), would be "gay" or "lesbian".  These can be used with gay
meaning both sexes, or as in "gay male" or "gay woman", and with "lesbian" 
always meaning a gay woman.

Thank you for asking.  Please check the language discussion notes for more
info.
         Carol

    
    Mary,
    
    Thanks for your reply. I see your point.
    
    Carol,
    
    Thanks for your reply and your comment about me. I have learned a lot
    since I started reading this conference file (or at least I'd like to
    think so!!.), you point has given me another angle to look at, which is
    one reason why I decided to reply here. And like Mary's I see you point
    too, and it is well taken. I'll have to think about it some more and
    will come back to you both.
    
    Your friend,
    
    Art.

the following was nabbed off the net - ~r

------------------------------------------------------------------------ 
This article appeared in the March 26th Village Voice:
 
Passing Game:  How Lesbians Are Being Purged from Women's College Hoops
by Alisa Solomon
 
James Madison fans weren't the only ones celebrating when their school
upset Penn State at the NCAA women's tournament Saturday.  Though
disappointed that the Nittany Lions -- top-seeded in the East and top
ranked in the country -- were eliminated so quickly, some of the team's
most avid followers couldn't help but rejoice:  the lesbian Goddess had
wrought Her revenge.
 
Lions coach Rene Portland, long known and feared as both a demanding
drill sergeant and a campaigner for women's rights on the court, has
earned an underground reputation as well -- as the biggest homophobe in
the game.  Back in 1986, she told the Chicago Sun-Times that she doesn't
allow lesbians on her team; last week the Philadelphia Inquirer quoted
Penn State players and recruits, and officials in women's basketball,
confirming Portland's unwritten rule.
 
Portland's only comment to Inquirer reporter Jere Longman (Portland did
not return Voice phone calls by press time) was, "I have training rules.
And I will never have to say what my training rules are."  But her policy
is no secret.  "The good thing about it," says Betty Jaynes, executive
director of the Women's Basketball Coach's Association, "is you know
exactly where Rene stands."  She adds, "If I had a daughter who was gay,
who was being recruited for basketball, I'd know not to let her go to
Penn State."
 
Though Portland is the most outspoken about trying to keep women's
basketball dyke-free, she is far from alone.  According to University
of Massachusetts at Amherst's Pat Griffin, an expert on homophobia
in sports, coaches throughout the country tell parents on recruiting
interviews, whether true of not, that there are no lesbians on their
teams.  "The implication is," says Griffin, "if you let your daughter
come here, she'll be safe."  Some coaches go even further, and use
gay baiting as a negative recruiting tool.  "They tell parents," says
Griffin, "that there are lesbians on other teams."
 
Leaving aside the troubling question of how a coach would even know
what her players like to do in bed, to say there are no lesbians in
basketball is like saying there are no blacks in the NBA.  At the
very least, the sport would reflect the 10 per cent rate of gays in
the population at large.  And the numbers may be dispproportionate:
on the one hand, may heteros are still scared off by the fear that
such macho pursuits as basketball will drive away male suitors; on
the other, lesbians continue to seek refuge in environments where
women can be together, even sweat together.  "People are tip-toeing
around a lavender elephant in the locker room," says Griffin, "and
pretending it's just not there."
 
College coaches have a tricky job having to answer concerned parents
who fear that homosexuality is contagious -- or who may be looking
for ways to repress the incipient signs in their daughters, or even
to reassure themselves that their hairy-legged center, so recently
just a tot, has not grown up to be one of them.
 
But the coaches are often under fire themsleves, fearing they have to
keep their squads "clean" if they want to keep their jobs.  And if
a coach herself is a lesbian -- or thought to be one -- she might as
well start filling out unemployment forms.  Mariah Burton Nelson,
author of the forthcoming _Are We Winning Yet:  How Women Are Changing
Sports and Sports are Changing Women_, says many women have been
driven from the field "because the homophobia is so dense."  She
explains, "Many coaches told me that when they looked for jobs,
administrators would ask around: 'Does she have short hair and no
husband?'  If the answe was yes, she wouldn't even get an interview."
 
Such pressures have intensified as women's sports have made giant
strides over the last decade or so.  As Title IX and the adoption
of women's college teams into the NCAA have focused more funding
and attention on women's sports, the stakes have gotten higher.
"Parents and corporate sponsors have increasing power over the
coaches," says Nelson.  What's more, the coaches must now answer
to men.
 
When women's athletics departments were merged with men's in the
'70s, control of women sports landed in male hands.  Virtually all
college athletics departments are presided over by men, and
they're the ones who do the hiring.  Now, 15 years after Title IX,
the vast majority of women's teams are coached by men.  Of course
there are many explanations -- sexism, increased opportunities for
men in getting experience -- but, Griffin says, male ADs often
hire male coaches for women's sports because they're considered
'safer" than coaches who might be lesbians.  Never mind that this
perception flies in the face of the statistical reality of sexual
harassment, whose perpetrators are almost always men.
 
In this atmosphere, homophobia can be wielded to keep women from
demanding too much in sports.  Making women run interference against
being labeled dykes keeps them in their place; they may end up
spending more time doing their nails than doing their drills just
to prove how "feminine" they are.  As Griffen says, "homophobia is
part of the glue tht holds sexism together."
 
Four years ago, Northwestern State University of Louisiana's
women's basketball team went so far as to produce a guide entitled,
These Girls Can Play, Boy.  The cover featured a photo of the team
posing in their uniforms with bunny ears and fluffy tails.  Now,
the Liberty Basketball Association, the new professional women's
league set to start next season, has announced that players will
shuck shorts and jerseys and do their dribbling in form-fitting
spandex unitards.  Why?  To draw male fans, of course, who just
can't be expected to appreciate fast breaks and intricate passing
games when executed by women.  The sport won't sell, sponsors fear,
unless the athletes appeal to men as sexual objects.  And how can
they, as long as everyone thinks they're a league of lesbians?
 
Buying into male-defined stereotypes of femininity is a tragic
enough reversal of all that women's sports can represent.  Lesbians
are the collateral damage, driven deeply underground, if not out of
sports altogether.  college players, some so young that they
haven't even found themselves yet, can be devastated to discover
that a traditional place of refuge also teaches them to be ashamed.
Few in power see Rene Portland's policies as posing such dangers,
however.  The WBCA's Betty Jaynes likens it to any coaching style:
"Some coaches are defense-oriented and disciplinarians.  If I
knew my daughter couldn't go by that system, I wouldn't let her go
there.  Rene has her system."  Portland's barring of lesbians from
her team, Jaynes adds, "is not against the law."
 
Not yet, anyway.  Gay and lesbian activists at Pennn State are
lobbying to get sexual orientation added to the college's
nondiscrimination clause; the faculty is slated to vote on it next week.
If it does pass and then goes on to be approved in a series of
administrative votes, students could bring a collective complaint
against Portland as early as next fall.
 
In the meantime, they are reluctant to attack Portland or the
Nittany Lions.  "There are lots of fans among the lesbians at Penn
State," says senior Julie Parr of the local gay and lesbian
switchboard.  "We don't want to hurt the lesbians on the team who
are closeted."  She adds, "It's a lot like the troops in the Persian
Gulf.  Even if we oppose the policy, a lot of people don't want to
appear like we don't support our troops."
 

Herb, can I ask you to explain it?

When I was a high school senior and considering several womens'
colleges, the idea that there might be a large number of lesbians on
campus was one of my concerns.  I think the main reason for it was that
I was afraid that my being identified with such an institution might
cause others - including prospective employers and men I was interested
in dating - to assume *I* was a lesbian.  Somewhere in the back of my
mind I suppose I also envisoned myself having to fend off the advances
of other women.  Of course, having been exposed to stereotypes only at
that point, I envisioned her as an overly aggressive, very masculine
sort in army boots.  But my main fear, I think, was "what would
everyone else think".  After a couple campus visits (during which I met
some women who seemed obviously straight), I decided my fears were unfounded.

Now I'd class my fears as "ludicrous", and say that's putting it
mildly.  Although there were probably more lesbians on campus than I
realized as a prospective student, *nobody* came close to meeting that
stereotype, certainly not the "aggressive" part (well, maybe a couple
of men...).  I realize now that it was overactive narcissism on my part
that even made me think any lesbian would be so anxious to "convert"
me... and overexposure to eggagerated stereotypes. 

Herb, what makes your fears "real" to you?

    Sharon 

    Oh gag.  When I played HS hoop I was always more worried that my
    teammates could pass, guard, and make baskets.  (Unfortunately, when
    I went to college, women's sports did not count and I had to get
    an academic scholarship which gave me no time to play.)
    
    Who cares what somone's orientation is?  (Unless it's romantic interest
    that prompts the question.)  Can they play?  Is she a good guard?
    Can she drive? Can she evade the defense?
    
    The thought of playing in unitards is terrible.  The darn things
    don't breathe.  Hoop is hot work.  It sounds like a prescription
    for dehydration and heat prostration.  
    
    Of course, we all know that there are no gay folks in the NBA. (Or
    the NFL, NHL, American League or National League.)  Me, I watch
    basketball for all the tall guys running around in their skivvies.
    :^)
    
       Margaret  

>but i think you probly new that

Yeah, I guessed.

What, and you want us to leave that statement be?  You announce that you
are a homophobe, without stating any dismay at this or intent to change,
but think you can just throw in the disclaimer "allow me to say this without
defending it" and think that makes it okay?!?!

>    (fear that lesbians, would have too much an influence on my daughters)

One more time, folks: you can't *make* someone gay.   your daugthers are
either bisexual, homosexual or heterosexual.  Whether you believe in the nature
or nuture argument, by the time they get to college, their orientation is
quite fixed.  No amount of "influence" would make a straight person gay, or
vice versa.

Don't you fear that straights will have too much influence on your daughters?

D!

Besides, when you say you are glad of the situation at Penn State, regardless
of your own homophobia or anything else, what you are saying is that you are
aware of a discriminatory situation and are glad that it exists.

Well at least we know where you stand. *I* feel better.

D!

    Gee, Herb,
    
    What's the worst thing that could happen?  That your daughter would
    discover something about herself now, rather than sometime in the
    future, when when was in a heterosexual marraige with a couple of kids?
    
    It seems to me that men who don't understand what "no" means are
    a far bigger threat than lesbians who might prey on the unwary.
    Seems to me women have a thorough understanding of what "no" means.
    
    Would you love your daughter any less if she were gay?
    
    /bruce
    

Herb, you seem to see "their influence" as being entirely limited to
the arena of sexual orientation.  What makes you think they're any more
likely to influence your daughters than vice versa?  Or that a lesbian
might not influence one of your daughters by encouraging her to study
harder, or by kindling an interest in Spanish literature or medicine or
nuclear physics?

Somehow, I can't see your self-professed "homophobia" as anything more than
homoignorance.  You're still, it seems, viewing lesbians as a cardboard
group of people who are nothing more than walking billboards for their
sexual orientation.  Do you know anyone, gay or straight, that lives up
to that standard of cardboardness?   (If so, why would they be
interested in playing basketball?) 

The fact that openly lesbian basketball players are not allowed on the
team will not reduce your daughters' exposure to anything but the best
basketball talent.
I can't understand why you would see this as positive, nor can I
understand why you choose to see the fact that there might be lesbians
on your daughter's basketball team in terms of the influence they might
have on your daughter and not in terms of "less competition for that
rich young heir".

In other words, I don't think you're afraid of homosexuals.  I think
you're afraid of your *daughters*, of who they are and who they might
choose to become once they're out of the house and exercising their
independence.  And that's going to remain an issue independent of the
sexual preference of your daughters' basketball teammates.  By
remaining ignorant of the group you profess to fear, you can keep from
facing up to the real issue.  But no matter how much discrimination you
condone against innocent parties, it is not going to make your parental
anxieties go away.

    Sharon 

    > ...viewing lesbians as a cardboard group of people who are nothing
    > more than walking billboards for their sexual orientation.
    
    Some homosexuals treat themselves that way - everything they do is as
    homosexuals first and as people second.  Society seems to have
    forgotten that for the most part very little of our interaction with
    each other needs to be concerned with other's sexual preference.
    
    Rich

    >> ...viewing lesbians as a cardboard group of people who are nothing
    >> more than walking billboards for their sexual orientation.
    
    >Some homosexuals treat themselves that way - everything they do is as
    >homosexuals first and as people second.
    
    Er, no.  Homosexuals *and* people.  niether one has to come first
    because homosexual *are* people.  sexual orientation is a very
    fundamental part of your being.  Rich, are you a man or a person? 
    Which comes first?  I don't know about you, but I am a woman and a
    person, and niether one comes first - they are both part and parcel of
    my being.
    
    some gays are walking billboards.  Others aren't.  but the are *all*
    people *first*, because their *person* includes their sexual
    orientation, among other things.
    
    D!
    
    [PS: Sharon, did you mean for this topic to be a reply to the
    homophobia note?]

    well, chalk .59, .61 up to bad judgement
    
    
    			herb

    c.f 737.67
    

    Please describe what you mean by walking billboards.  Of all the
    gay people I know, some are larger than life, but none would I describe
    as billboards.
    	Linda

    c.f. 48.35ff

    well, praps i deserve that

By "walking billboards", Linda, I wasn't talking about clothing or neon lights
but about the idea some people seem to have that gay people are
advertisements for their sexual orientation, and that's it.  No other
interests.  Picture someone in a sandwich board (24 hours a day), or a
proselytizing member of a
cult whose religion is "being gay", and whose goal is as many new
converts as possible.

My point is exactly yours: this picture is drawn from stereotype, not reality.

    Sharon 

    i misunderstood
    

    Brian, 
      Thank you for saying that so that I didn't have to.
    	Linda

    I didn't read the deleted notes, but here's a real life story for you
    Herb.
    
    I was told from the time I was small that some women were to be
    avoided, they were nasty, dirty, lower than pond scum etc.
    
    also, ever since i was a little girl, i have been attracted to women,
    had crushes on girls and women regularly.
    
    when i started dating, i really wanted to go out with girls, not boys,
    but that just wasn't done.  so i dated boys, did all the
    experimentation that kids do etc., but very confused because i just
    couldn't connect with the boys emotionally like i did with girls.  
    
    i spent lots of adult years dating men, trying to find a life with one
    until i gradually started putting things together.  i finally came out
    to myself and what a relief!  but, was i a bad person, dirty, etc like
    my parents had taught me?  No, i wasn't a bad person, i knew that in my
    heart.
    
    by this time i had a child i was raising alone and so i had some big
    decisions.  do i continue to date men, pleasing mom and society, but
    leaving me with MAJOR problems in that i didn't want to be with men? 
    should i be true to myself, knowing that ultimately i had to live with
    myself and not my mom or society?  provide a "dad" for my child who i
    couldn't love and live a life of falseness?
    
    as evidenced by my open participation here you know my answers to my
    questions.
    
    how nice it would have been if i had had a positive image of lesbians
    as people in the world, different as all people are different from one
    another.
    
    Herb, if by chance one of your daughters is gay, please consider how
    your attitudes are going to contribute to her feelings of self-worth as
    an individual.  for many years, i thought that i wasn't worth anything
    and for many years struggled, both mentally, physically, and
    spiritually to come to terms with myself.  trying to live the
    heterosexual life DID NOT make me a heterosexual.  and i mean actively
    living that life even to the extent of having a baby and trying for the
    standard family.  being exposed to gays and lesbians WILL NOT make your
    daughters gay, but it might make them examine their lives and
    orientation and maybe they will find themselves, whatever that is.
    
    if you would like to communicate off-line, write me.
    
    sue

Yep.  Billboards advertise.  Appearances, if anything, announce.  I think the
terms get confused too much, with "advertise" too often used instead of
"announce".  The difference, of course, is that an advertiser is trying to
exhort you to do something, whereas an announcer is merely reporting a fact. 

I hope nobody interpreted my comment about "walking billboards" as referring
to gays who are open about their sexuality.  NO WAY.  I was simply trying to
make the point that there's a stereotype out there that gays proselytize, and
that it is often used to defend phenomena such as the women's basketball
coach at Penn State not allowing lesbians on her team, even though it doesn't
match up with reality very well, and very possibly not at all.

As for the other usage -- someone once stopped me in a hallway to complain
about my "blatant" clothing.  I was dressed in a lavender t-shirt with black
tiger stripes all over it, blue jeans, and sneakers.  I couldn't imagine what 
they were talking about when they accused me of "advertising".  Then they
explained it to me: *lavender* t-shirt, *animal* print.  Uh-huh.  (I didn't ask
whether they thought I was advertising lesbianism or bestiality).

    Sharon

A thought to Herb and anyone else who thinks that proximity to or influence
from LesBiGays will affect the heterosexuality of their children:

Would being "recruited" by gays make *you* likely to sleep with/fall in love
with a member of your sex?  if not, why do you think it would make your
kids do that?

Secondly, why is it that so many heterosexuals think of homosexuality as
this big temptation that must be avoided; that kids are always on the verge
of being gay, given the slightest provocation or tempation? Think about that
for a second: homosexuality is a *temptation*?!?!  What, like chocolate?
Like other forbidden "goodies"?  I wonder about these people.  If you really
think homosexuality is a great and dangerous *temptation*, something that is
so desireable that with a little encouragement your kids will deviate off
the true path, maybe you ought to examine your *own* sexuality a little more
closely.

Most *true* heterosexuals I know don't find homosexual tempting at all!

D!

I'm not even going to ask where you get your purity test for "*true*"
heterosexuality...

>I'm not even going to ask where you get your purity test for "*true*"
>heterosexuality...

Self-identification. I've met a lot of "bisexual heterosexuals" in the 
same way I am a "bisexual identification". These folks have told me that
while they are basically heterosexual, they do harbor some interest in/
attraction to the same sex.  Others I have met say they have no attraction
to or interest in the same sex what-so-ever. So based on their *own* 
identification, "true heterosexuals". I wouldn't presume to try and stick
such a label onto anyone! :-)  

(Most of the people who say things like "Wouldn't want them dykes near my
daughter" would probably identify quite gladly with the label "true
heterosexual".  In that sense, I use the term a little facetiously, since
it seems a little defensive to have to say "true heterosexual" or "real
heterosexual" or "proper heterosexual", and those types of folks always
seem a little defensive.)

D!

    I was going to let it pass, because it's a little thing, but little
    things that get ignored sometimes blossom ...
    
    "gay" was once, even in my lifetime, a word connected with carefree and
    dash.  when it began to be used as a descriptor for homosexual, people
    seemed to stop using it in its original meaning.  oh, gee, I wonder why ...
    
    Lavender is a lovely colour [good grief, it's _still_ half-mourning in
    my mother's circle].  Yet wearing it now voices a political statement?
    
    My gold band with the black star was a symbol of earth, the stars, and
    eternity when given to me when I married.  Yet it would appear that now
    it is a symbol of my sexuality?
    
    I find the need to label and pidegeonhole and identify a disturbing
    trend.  Soon it will all be sorted out and everyone will have visual
    and early verbal short-hand profiles of one-or-two-dimensional people.
    And then where will talking and learning and the free exchange of ideas
    and thoughts be?
    
    Is this entirely because as a straight feminist I'll soon be limited to
    white lycra business suits with short skirts and hose with seams up the
    back?
    
      Annie

    
    It's true that if I saw a woman wearing a lavender t-shirt and jeans or
    black cotton pants, I would think to myself... hmmm...  But it wouldn't
    be definitive, by any means.  I don't want to make anyone feel
    pigeonholed or stereotyped or restricted in anyway, but.. it is nice
    to have a way of recognizing each other even if it's not fool proof.
    Just the other morning, for example, I was in a store leaning over a
    stack of papers trying to decide if I wanted a Boston and a Worcester
    paper or just a Boston paper, when I heard a very friendly, "Hi!"
    coming from behind the counter.  I looked up and there was a woman with
    short hair wearing a zippered sweatshirt unzipped about halfway to
    reveal......   her thermal undershirt.  I gave her a big smile and a hi
    back, paid for my papers, and left the store still smiling.  A rather
    nice way to start my Sunday, I thought.   I can't be sure from her
    dress that the store clerk is lesbian, but her seeming so happy to see
    me kinda pushed me over the edge into thinking that she probably is.
    And who knows, maybe after work that day, she went home to her lover
    and said, "Guess what, there is another dyke in town!!!"
    
    Justine
                    

    re .81
    
    My interpretation wasn't people that proselytize, but it was definately
    something more than being open about their sexuality.  Some people
    state that they did some activity recently, and they mention that they
    did it with a group that they associate with because of their sexuality.
    
    In many cases in which I have heard such things, it has been my opinion
    that the reason for participating in the activity and for associating
    with the group that it was done with are disjoint - any group of people
    could have desired to do the activity.
    
    Rich
    
    N.B.  I purposely did not mention a particular sexual orientation
    above.  The actions that I describe can be done by people of any sexual
    orientation.  Society tends to notice more when such things are done by
    those that are in less populated sexual orientations purely because it
    is different from the predominately experienced phenomina.

    re: wearing lavender
    
    It's only a political statement if worn on a Wednesday. Or is that
    yellow on a Thursday? Green on a Tuesday?  Worn on the left ear?
    Right ear?  Oh, geez, I just can't keep all of this straight (pun
    half-intended)...
    
    Me, I don't think lavender is *my* color, though I do wear a lavender
    hair-binder once in a while. Maybe even now? Lessee...no, it's the
    red one today. I find the idea that someone might think I'm gay
    when I wear the lavender one rather amusing, actually.
    
    --- jerry

  I thought lavender was the color of penance.  Or was it purple? 
  Such thoughts keep popping up due to my RC upbringing.

  I had a thought the other day about male homophobia.  Since it is
  not a happy thought, I'm putting it behind a formfeed.  You've been
  warned.



  The hatred of male homosexuals by some men could be caused by
  projection of their own attitudes and feelings onto those
  homosexuals.  

  We know that there is a set of men who care very little about the
  feelings of people they regard as sex objects and who will do very
  bad things in order to gratify their sexual desires.  Evidence of
  this is the mind-boggling amount of  mistreatment of women by men.

  What happens when a man like that contemplates a set of men whose
  sexual orientation is directed toward other men?  He might very well 
  assume (perhaps unconsciously) that such men might similarly
  mistreat  _their_ sex objects.  This would be perceived as a serious
  threat, requiring serious preventive measures.  

  In other words, "sex objects are to be mistreated; I am a sex object
  to a certain set of men; therefore I am threatened and may retaliate
  preemptively against them."

  To me, this seems to make more sense than the assertion that those
  males most hostile to male homosexuals are often those who feel homosexual 
  tendencies within themselves.

  Anyone else get a "click" out of this?

  JP

    I just got some nasty personal mail from a regular =wn= confrere.
    I hope that those of you who have reacted in a similar fashion will
    observe that I have never tried to defend what I said. I have no
    defense for that feeling. I don't believe feelings *can* be defended.
    Feelings are neither "good" nor "bad", neither defensible nor
    indefensible, they just are.
    I simply recounted how I reacted to a particular story. In that
    reaction I believe I was being much more honest about my own feelings
    than an awful lot of people in the world.
    I also believe I am much more in touch with my feelings and much more
    aware of them, than a lot of the correspondents in this conference.
    Its unfortunate that my honesty engendered such hostility (both clear &
    more subtle).
    Its even more unfortunate -and wrong- that people reacted to my
    statement as if it were an attack on gays.

re: .86  accoutrements -> symbols -> labels

Seems that if one wants to wear something and have it be a symbol
and indicate a label, they can, if and one wants to wear something
and have it not indicate anything (other than what one wanted to
wear that day), they can.  


If you're wearing it for yourself, give it your own meaning (or don't).
No reason to worry about how someone else will interpret it, really,
since it doesn't really matter.  It doesn't matter if you wear something
or say something that someone else attributes some other meaning to.
You get what you want out of it, and others get what they want out
of it.  If you actually get to the point of interaction with someone
who's made an interpretation different than yours, and it comes up
in conversation, well, it's just an opening to communication.

	MKV

    re.93 [reponse to my .86]
    
    Frankly, I have the rep of doing what I please and the world be damned
    if they wished to attach some significance to it. For that, I take a
    fair amount of grief which I don't particularly enjoy, but, hey, it's
    my choice -- recognisable icon or person in my own right. {Sometimes I
    _do_ choose the icon option when I feel the payback warrants it]
    
    I rarely wear lavender [preferring as I do eye-popping purple] and
    _absolutely_ don't mind if someone thinks I'm a lesbian when I do. 
    They'd be wrong, but who cares?
    
    I suppose if my aunt dies and leaves me that 3-carat pink heart-shaped
    diamond ring [that _really_ looks triagular unless you're less than a
    foot away] even _more_ will think so ... cause you can _bet_ I'd wear
    that sucker!
    
    Something I have difficulty getting across in writing, sometimes even
    in person, is that I don't mind people's misperceptions based upon some
    symbology so much as the I mind the feeling I often get that from
    others that I should _avoid_ the symbols that trigger these
    misperceptions.
    
    I'm talking about this here in this string, because I often feel that
    these warnings or reminders that I get from others are subtly
    homophobic -- "If you do/wear/say _that_, people will think you are
    <>."
    
    I always want so say, "So ... what's your point?"
    
      Annie

	Right!

	Wear what you wanna wear.

	People who you care about will know the score. If others
	think the wrong thing, that ain't your problem.

			Tom_K

Well, now everyone gets to view all the lesbians of the conference
with suspicion. Which strident bill-board lesbian sent Herb the
nasty mail? (No, it definitely wasn't me. And I don't know who it was,
or what they said.)

Herb, I'll betcha big bucks that you knew you'd hurt people's feelings
with your "paternal" comment. And I think it's a cop-out to hide behind
the i-don't-have-to-explain-myself-because-what-i-said-were-my-feelings
shield.

Kathy

    Herb,
    
    i hope you didn't take my earlier reply as being against anything you
    might have said (since i didn't see the original post) but what i wrote
    was a form of education.
    
    as a mother, having maternal hopes and dreams for my child etc, i only
    hope that Adrienne finds someone to love, anyone, any color, creed,
    religion, sex anyone.  it is too hard in this world if one is alone and
    i only wish for her happiness.  if my parents had taken that attitude,
    indeed society had that attitude, my life would not have been as
    painful for as long as it was.
    
    you are right about feelings tho.  they are our own.  i feel sad that
    you appear to fear that your daughters might be exposed to "unseen
    dangers" if they are in any environments that might be gay.
    
    of the example you used about one of your daughters being athletic,
    here's an interesting analogy.
    
    Your daughter plays on a sports team that is composed of very different
    people, black, catholic, jewish, arabic, white, asian, native american,
    lesbian, bisexual.  AS A TEAM, they are expected to work together
    toward a goal, winning a game, winning a tournament, winning the
    division championship whatever.
    
    Now for the analogy:  one works at DEC, in a work group that has
    various members, black, catholic, jewish, arabic, white, asian, native
    american, lesbian, bisexual.  AS A TEAM, they are expected, indeed it
    is mandated by DEC's valuing differences philosophy, to work together
    to accompish their group goal, turning out a software product, getting
    a piece of hardware designed, getting a system sold and delivered to
    the customer.
    
    there are many examples that our growing up experiences help prepare us
    for living a responsible, happy life.  where are the inconsistencies
    between the above examples?
    
    it's something i think about.
    
    sue

� with suspicion. Which strident bill-board lesbian sent Herb the
� nasty mail? (No, it definitely wasn't me. And I don't know who it was,
    
    I believe Herb meant me, and my mail was a response to mail which he
    sent me asking me (wrongly) to collaborate in sucker-punching a recent
    noter who he assumed (rightly) we both disagreed with.
    
    I think Herb uses the adjective "nasty" with too much abandon here (as
    usual), but I give him permission to post the entire correspondence, if
    he truly believes it to be a topic of interest to women.  Personally I
    view the whole thing as another attempt to drag acrimony into =wn=.
    
    Ray the strident bill-board het male (: >,)

    
    Herb,  I am sorry that you got nasty Mail from someone in this file.
    Folks, it is not ok to make nasty comments in this file, and it is not
    ok to send someone nasty mail.  I would like to think that when folks
    carry discussions from this file offline, they try to follow the same
    guidelines for communication that we ask folks to follow here.
    Herb, I agree that feelings just are, and you are under no obligation
    to defend or explain them, but as long as everyone owns his/her feelings 
    and speaks in "I language," I think it's fine for people to tell you
    how your responses make them feel.
    
    If anyone ever gets Mail that makes them uncomfortable, as a result of
    participating in this conference, please let the moderators know.
    
    Thank you,
    
    Justine -- Womannotes Comoderator
                     


From:	VMSSPT::NICHOLS      "It ain't easy being green" 27-MAR-1991 12:14:44.61
To:	STAR::RDAVIS
CC:	nichols,NICHOLS
Subj:	Ray:

    Ray:
    my personal opinion is that somewhere in that chain of whatever they
    are, we are going to find something rather closely connected to the
    NRA.
    I don't trust the numbers at ALL. I was hoping to not
    scare/alarm/whatever Clifford. Hence the very low key questions.
    I wonder whether you note might scare him away.?


    				herb


From:	STAR::RDAVIS       "Ray Davis, ZKO3-2/Z19, DTN 381-0566" 27-MAR-1991 12:20:08.67
To:	VMSSPT::NICHOLS
CC:	RDAVIS
Subj:	RE: Ray:

Herb,

Sorry.  I don't like playing Machiavellan headgames.  If I think 
something doesn't make sense, I prefer to say so and say why (unless 
I'm mad enough to just blast).

I think you tend to read way too much into things.  Who cares if the 
guy is a member of the NRA?  He probably is.  So what?  Either the 
figures are true or they're not.

But since probably about a quarter of my friends are gay or bi, you 
might want to take MY word with a grain of salt too, huh?

Ray

From:	VMSSG::NICHOLS      "Herb: CSSE support for VMS at ZK" 27-MAR-1991 12:21:09.41
To:	STAR::RDAVIS
CC:	NICHOLS
Subj:	RE: Ray:

    feel better now?

From:	STAR::RDAVIS       "Ray Davis, ZKO3-2/Z19, DTN 381-0566" 27-MAR-1991 12:25:19.20
To:	VMSSG::NICHOLS
CC:	RDAVIS
Subj:	RE: Ray:

Sure.  I always feel better when I get something off my chest.  That's 
probably why I talk so much.

Ray

    
    Herb, I fail to see the nastiness in Ray's part of that exchange, but
    if you want to pursue this, why don't you take it up with me or one of
    the other comods.  
    
    How 'bout if we get back to the topic now?
    
    I just got back from performing at a concert of music and poetry in 
    ZKO.  We ended the concert with Holly Near's "Gentle Angry People."
    We invited the audience to sing along, which they did.  It was
    thrilling to me when we got to the verse that goes:
    
    	We are gay and straight together, and we are singing, singing for
        our lives.
        We are gay and straight together, and we are singing, singing for
        our lives.
    
     I was kind of leading the song, and I meant to say "Gay, Bi, and
    Straight," but I was afraid it would be too hard to get all the
    syllables in.
    
    
    Justine

	Justine, your note brought tears to my eyes!

	And they aren't going away!

    Justine,
    
    i was going to suggest substituting gay and straight with lesbigay, but
    then realized that left out the straights, syllable-wise.
    
    have to put my thinking cap back on.
    
    

    Herb,
    
    You are one of the basically nicest guys I've met. I think you have a
    good heart, quite honestly. (tho' you come across in notes as...uhm...
    fairly aggressive, I think.)
    
    But I really, truly, can't understand this (IMHO) blind spot you seem
    to have. (Not that I need to understand your feelings about
    anything...) Still, if one says "I don't think heterosexual men (for
    example) should be allowed to coach teen-age girls, because
    they might influence the girls to have sex with them."
    
    ...well, if coaching teen-age girls is one's livelihood, it's
    kind of hard to see that as a non-perjorative statement. 
    
    There's nothing to indicate that girls are in less danger from male
    coaches, so the issue isn't really about sex, it's about "women's
    role in society". If yer gonna be a (ugh) *jock*, you at least better
    not usurp any *other* male roles. [sic]
    
    --DE
    

    Hi Dawn:
    
    <But i really, truly can't understand this (IMHO) blind spot
    i think ya can 
    
    I feel uncomfortable around gay men, 
    (and have no problems being around gay women -althought they may :-)
    
    (Indeed, I also feel more comfortable around gay women than
    certain kinds of straight women)
    
    I don't want my daughters around gay women, (and have no problems with
    them being around gay men)
    
    
    I think what these all have in common is that I feel more comfortable 
    in situations where sexuality of ANY kind is not an issue.

    Again I'm off preselytising, on a crusade as it were.
    
    I dearly love my mother-in-law, Leotis.  Her homophobia is "her
    problem", but because I love her it's fair to say that it's my problem
    too.  Her homophobia hurts.
    
    She _LOVES_ lavender.  In her heart of hearts it's only _slightly_ less
    a blessed colour than teal. She also keeps her hair _very_ short, wears
    dresses or skirts only if there's profit for her or hers in it, ditto
    make-up.
    
    She minded, terribly, when someone asked her how long she'd been out. 
    She felt humiliated.  So much so that she called me long distance in
    tears.  [she couldn't even talk to her own children about it, but knows
    that I have friends who are lesbian so she didn't think I'd puke on
    the phone or anything ...]
    
    In tryiing to deal with Leotis' homophobia and hurt, I asked her a lot
    of "why?" and "do you feel?" questions. "why is it bad that people
    think ..."  "why do _you_ think ...?"  trying to explore with her the
    roots of her fears.
    
    It's a slow process.  She's met and really liked my cousin, Tory
    [actually Tory is about the _only_ member of my family that she can
    abide]; so I asked her how she felt about Tory's sexuality and the fact
    that Tory's spouse is a woman.  That made Leotis a bit squeamish, but
    she allowed as it didn't make Tory a bad person.
    
    We're giving that time to percolate right now ...
    
      Annie

    observation here
    
    Herb feels comfortable in situations without sexual overtones.
    
    Herb feels uncomfortable with gay men.
    
    Herb feels comfortable with gay women and some straight women.
    
    Herb feels uncomfortable about his daughters associating with gay
    women.
    
    Herb, are you projecting your own level of comfortableness onto your
    daughters?  
    
    Is it possible that your daughters might not feel uncomfortable
    associating with gay women?
    
    Might they feel comfortable associating with any people, regardless of
    gender or orientation?
    
    Are they old enough to form their own opinions? (which from my
    experience as a parent, they begin to form their own opinions at an
    early age)
    
    sue

    Herb, are you projecting your own level of comfortableness onto your
    daughters?  
    OF COURSE
    
    Is it possible that your daughters might not feel uncomfortable
    associating with gay women?
    yes
    
    Might they feel comfortable associating with any people, regardless of
    gender or orientation?
    yes
    
    Are they old enough to form their own opinions? (which from my
    experience as a parent, they begin to form their own opinions at an
    early age)
    yes

    I often go shopping in Provincetown with a particular straight, female
    friend.  It just happens that she's tall, very assertive, and sometimes
    sort of loud, while I'm small and usually quieter.  I, also, tend to
    dress in a more feminine manner than she does.  One day last year when
    we were headed down to P-town for the day she told me that her husband
    had expressed concern that "people" might think we're a Lesbian couple
    when we're shopping around P-town.  We both got a good laugh over it
    because we both had the same reaction, "So *what*?"  We couldn't
    imagine what difference it would make to anyone in the world if
    somebody saw us in P-town and thought we were a Lesbian couple????  Her
    husband certainly knows she's straight so I don't know why he would care
    if some strangers on the street thought she was a Lesbian.  She didn't
    know why he would care either.  His concern totally mystified us, but
    we thought it was sort of funny at the time.  Actually, I guess it
    isn't very funny, though, in a perfect world it would never have
    occured to him to say that.  
    
    Anyway, as I later told another friend, even if I *were* a Lesbian this
    particular friend wouldn't be my type.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    you know, it's possible, as parents, to project our feelings onto our
    children.
    
    we all have prejudices, everyone of us.  in an ideal world, it is free
    from prejudice.  but we don't live in an ideal world, so we either
    maintain our prejudices or we try to eliminate them.
    
    i do have certain prejudices, but i also realize that i have to get
    along in the world.  common courtesy says to be nice/polite to
    everyone.  so that's what i try to do, eliminate my prejudice.  i'm not
    always successful, however.
    
    hopefully, we are teaching our children that prejudices are just that,
    prejudging without getting all the facts.
    
    i hope for a world free of prejudice.  idealistic.
    
    Herb,  thanks for responding to my questions.
    
    sue

Hmmm. My reaction when I saw Herb's latest note (I never saw the deleted one)
was "What about straight male coaches?" If the discomfort is still there, then
I agree that the issue is purely sexuality. If the discomfort isn't there, or
is significantly less, then the issue is at least partly homophobia. That's
not to say that it's any less real, but that labelling it as discomfort with
sexuality would be avoiding a real issue.

FWIW I think being uncomfortable about your children's (or parent's) sexuality
is pretty normal. That's not to say that I think it's good, just common.

	-- Charles

    it wasn't the coach's sexual identification I was reacting to but
    rather that the coach was 'doing her damndest' to ensure that no gays
    participated on her team.
    I *think* I would feel the same way if I had a son, but not sure.
    
    p.s. 
    I am CERTAIN that many people my age feel *much* more strongly about
    this than I.
    
    p.p.s
    If I told my wife and daughters this i'm not sure whether they would
    'break my face' or laugh at me. In either case, they would certainly
    NEVER let me influence a decision on that basis.

Ah, I think I understand, let me check. It's not the *coaches* orientation
that's the issue, it's the *players*. So you would feel similarly about a
coed team?

I realize that you said that this was emotional and not rational, so if this
bothers you I'll be happy to drop it.

	-- Charles

    
    RE .90
    
    John - yes, I kind of "click" on that.
    
    I've been thinking a lot recently about the roots of male homophobia
    as I've been supporting my gay male friends here regarding Section
    25 (an IMO viciously oppressive law that has been up for consideration
    in the UK recently - there has been a lot of marches and visible
    protest about it)....
    
    The male homophobia in the UK seems to be tied in with our class
    structure in a unique way - it is almost inextricably linked with
    the ideas of public school, corporal punishment, priviledge and
    class in many people's minds. There is a distinctly English
    stereotype that seem to live still in the minds of many, and
    is not helped by the fact that what media coverage gay issues
    get here (and that is very little) invariably focusses on
    the "outrageous" or the "typical" gay male.....
    
    The root of homophobia here seems to be tied in with the structure
    of society itself. The upper classes are at the top of the heirarchy.
    They "run" society - own most of the land, and most of the money,
    despite their being a minority. And are invariably white and male.
    These are the same classes which are likely to have attended
    public school with it's overtones of homosexuality, and the same
    classes that will very likely end up leading other men in
    major societal structure like the army, the Civil Service, the
    government....
    
    The idea of men loving other men is a threat to the chain of command.
    A bit like Lady Chatterley and the gamekeeper. It strikes at the
    root of a very conservative society, and threatens the power
    structures that anchor it (though many won't admit that
    they do).
    
    This, of course, led to further thoughts about whether the
    fact that lesbianism has never been illegal here, and what that
    says about womyns power in our society....
    
    IMO, of course.
    'gail
    

    
    RE -1
    
    Btw, here in the UK "public" school = "private" school.
    Just one of our quirks...
    
    'gail

    I find this discussion on homophobia in women's athletic teams very
    disturbing. Not only are we talking about preventing young women from
    participating in an activity based possibly on their orientation, and
    possibly on their *appearance* only; but we are talking about barring
    adult women from pursuing their livelihood based on the same things.
    
    I have the spooky feeling that this is only the beginning of a much
    more repressive wave across the country, heralded by the recent spate
    of "patriotism" and right-wing political activity.
    
    --DE