Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    There are  still  occasional  cases  of toxic shock syndrome. It's
    still quite dangerous, but much less common.

    It turned  out  that  there  were  two  problems  with  the "extra
    absorbent"  tampons.  The  first  was that one of the materials in
    them was a particularly good environment for the bacteria, and the
    more  serious problem was that they worked as advertised, and were
    changed   less   often.   Keeping  blood  warm  in  a  non-sterile
    environment  is  a  way  to  grow all sorts of nasty bacteria, and
    vaginas are not sterile.

    The conclusion  is,  don't  use  the  "extra  absorbent" varieties
    (which were taken off the market anyway), and don't leave a tampon
    in  place  for  a  long  time.  It  also  helps to not use tampons
    contiuosly.  Tampons changed regularly during the day, and pads at
    night is fine.

--David

    I never worried about it much; seemed like one of the many things that
    one can only do so much about, and which, when due precautions are
    taken, happen very rarely. [Rather like, to use another current topic,
    finding cyanide in one's Sudafed...] So, I take reasonable precautions
    [change tampons at the intervals recommended in the maintenance manual;
    check those sealed-to-the-nth pill containers for needle holes or the
    smell of bitter almonds; you know, *reasonable* precautions ;-)],
    balancing my assessment of risk against my own comfort level, and lose
    no sleep over it.
    
    I do occasionally worry about receiving a massive dose of radiation
    from a malfunctioning nuclear reactor and developing super powers,
    which would make me feel duty-bound to go around helping humanity all
    the time, and what a drag *that* would be. But I try not to let it
    sour me on life.
    
    -b

    Beth,
    
    Stick with reasonable worries, like detecting the scent of bitter
    almonds, finding an insoluble precipitate at the bottom of your
    wine, or discovering that there's a metallic, garlic-y taste in
    your mouth.
    
    						Ann B.

    Re 717.6: Um, you wouldn't, by chance, be putting the string-end in
    first, would you? That could cause removal problems... [Sorry! I'm
    feeling fractious today; maybe I shouldn't have taken those odd-colored
    vitamins this morning...]
    
    Unsolicited recommendation here: O.B. No perfumes (and believe me,
    that's the *last* place I want perfume!), a good assortment of sizes,
    and no applicator.
    
    Re 718.3: But, Ann, it's no fun worrying about _reasonable_ stuff, when
    one could be worrying about what really happened to Homer, or where
    Basil St. John has got to this time.
    
    Life's too short to be reasonable (she reasoned)...
    
    -b

    When I  last  checked (5 or so years ago), the contaceptive sponge
    was linked to TSS, but only when misused. In particular, you can't
    use  the  sponge either immediately before your period (it must be
    removed  before  your  period  starts)  or  until  your  period is
    completely over. You also have to make sure that you get the whole
    thing  out. There were a couple of cases of women removing most of
    a  sponge,  thinking  that  that  was good enough, and then having
    problems.  If only have the sponge comes out, if you can't get the
    rest out, see your doctor.

    As for  the  sponge's  efficency,  it  was  about  the same as the
    diaphram,  but with most of the problems in the first month or two
    of  use.  My  guess  was that since it was non-prescription, women
    weren't  getting  the  training to place it properly that they got
    with a diaphram.

--David

    
    
    	Well before this topic I used to be a read only noter here. However
    this topic is a fairly sensitive topic for me. The reason why is my
    wife was one of the first women recorded having TSS. She was only 14 at
    the time, but her doctors now think it was a major factor with her
    contracting Endrometriosis. Although its not certain since this disease
    has run in her family.
    
    
    	Brian

    Wow, scary stuff!  
    
    FWIW, I read the symptoms were a "sunburn like rash", particularly on
    the palms of the hands, and a high fever and serious diarrhea (this is
    from memory) - can anyone clarify or add more information?  
    
    -Jody
    

    When I ran a co-op about 10 years ago, one of the items we offered
    was  a  "menstrual  sponge".  My  understanding  is that they were
    washed  and  reused. I think they're discussed in "Our Bodies, Our
    Selves".

--David

Apparantly one of the problems with TSS is that many of it symptoms are
like that of other diseases.

I had a friend who felt sick for weeks: she was dizzy and had a fever and
a lot of other symptoms I don't remember right now. They did tests for 
this and that, gave her this and that medication and nothing helped.  Eventually
they told her it was in her head.  As she was leaving from that last
appointment, she fell down and passed out. That is what it took to 
convince them it was serious.

Fortunately, the eventually figured out what was wrong with her. She
is okay now, but she can't use tampons (or anything else that has to be
inserted vaginally) at *all*.

D!

    
    
    Reply .9
    
    		My wife told me that when she had it she wasn't taken
    	seriously until she was hospitilized for it. Can you imagine 
    	having eight doctors line up and give you internal exams, and
    	still not know what was wrong. They thought she had appendicitis,
    	until they actually performed surgery on her and found out what
    	she had. Since it was still in its infancy being diagnosed the
    	doctors were not familiar with what was happening with her.
    
    Brian

    Menstrul sponges  used  to  be available from the New England Food
    Co-op  in  Boston  (or some close in suburb). You might call them,
    and  they  might  be able to tell you where to get them (They sell
    only to co-ops, not to individuals).

    You could  also check with co-ops in your area. Also, look in "Our
    Bodies,  Our  Selves". They may give suppliers, and if they don't,
    you  could try calling the woman's health co-operative (authors of
    Our Bodies, Our Selves).  They would probably know where to look.

--David

    
    Thanks for the suggestions; I'll try a little harder to find them
    'cause I'm curious and I like the idea of sponges being convenient 
    when camping.  Taking care of several of the body's functions is 
    made more difficult when roughing it and I welcome something that 
    makes at least one of them easier.  (Not that I really go camping
    all that often...)
    
    CQ

    There has been a discussion in one of the Usenet groups about the
    alleged fatal effects of blowing air into the vagina (I won't say which
    Usenet group that was, though, because that would give away the fact
    that I actually read alt.sex, and I don't want people to think that I
    read things like that.)  Some people claimed that it was an urban
    legend, and others claimed that it was true. 

    -- Mike

    re: .53 (ASDG::FOSTER)
    
          I have just recently begun to read these notes, and though
    I acknowledge that this is a conference primarily for/by/about
    women's issues, there are a few allowable incursions by men.  Also,
    this is my first note in here and I have not even introduced myself,
    but I hope you will allow me to ask a couple of questions anyway.
          When you raise the hygiene/cleanliness issue, I would like to
    ask if you don't believe it is necessary or what?  Speaking for myself,
    I have always thought it would be difficult to transport myself into
    another era mostly because I would find odors insurmountable (if
    you'll pardon the expression ;-} ;) similarly, many of the women
    currently on the planet would stay at arm's length distance, too,
    no doubt.  You could easily argue that this is my problem, and it 
    certainly *is* my opinion, but I just sort of wonder where the
    boundaries would need to be defined.  If you watched "Lonesome Dove"
    (the television mini-series) there was a moment when Robert Duval's
    character says to the "whore" something like "I wonder how you manage
    to smell so fresh out here."  
          It seems to me that "freshness" has to do with the point at
    which bacteria cease to be "background" and become, instead, noticeably
    "foreground."  Whether this is underarms, breath, or any other 
    breeding area.  I have been doing massage professionally for eleven
    years now and I often become "painfully" aware of people and their
    intimate flesh and the etceteras.  I usually suggest that people 
    bathe as near to the massage as possible.  Though the worse thing
    I encounter on a usual basis is bad breath (and it is perhaps the
    most difficult to do anything about...since a person usually lies
    with their mouth shut for over an hour) it is not the only problem.
    Feet are another noticeable area.  Crotch odors (in this topic this
    shouldn't be a particular shock) are very, very rare, believe it
    or not.  But I feel this is as it should be.  For one, if the odor
    is prevalent, it generally causes a disruption in the ability to 
    give as much as might be desired (it distracts, throws off the 
    balance, etc.)  
        I find that people who aren't taking their impact on others into
    account are generally unlikely to be the types of individuals I would
    want to hang around with.  We all have an impact on others.  Depending
    on the situation, of course, if we are getting into physical (not
    even sexual) intimacy with others we owe them at least as much as
    some simple, considerate hygiene.  This probably does not include
    all the deodorants you mention, and it needs to account for particular
    allergies, etc., but there is a point at which "I don't give a 
    damn what they think" becomes very self-centered.
         To the topic more at hand, however, none of the discussion I
    have seen (and I admire the honesty and forth-rightness of the
    interchanges) has accounted for the impact on other humans...that is,
    the impact on the woman's (in the case of menstruation, of course)
    partner.  To what extent is the partner expected to "understand"
    the particular individuality of the woman?  That is, it is different
    being with a woman who uses sponges versus one who uses tampons
    versus one who uses pads, etc.  And the degree of sexual involvement,
    if any, is contingent not only on the woman but the methods she
    employs (speaking for myself and the partners I have had.)
    I think a woman should be prepared for a possible "separation",
    from her partner, during these times, unless there has been an
    adequate dialog concerning the needs, desires, expectations of 
    both of them, along with understandings and agreements.  So, while
    the mechanical issues have been quite thoroughly discussed here,
    I have not noticed an "emotional" discussion around this monthly
    event.  Those of us who are involved with menstruating women have
    some issue around this.  For some it is meaningless, for some it
    is not.  Perhaps some of you wouldn't mind commenting.
         Thank you for indulging me, and I really do not wish to 
    take away from the space that women have felt compelled to create 
    for themselves, so I promise to do little more than observe here.
    Thanks, again.
    
    Frederick
    

    re: .17 (myself)
    
         Oops, I didn't realize my "faux pas."  Anyway, reply .17
    was entered as a reply to 717.53 and the discussion thereupon.
    
    Frederick
    

    In response to note 717.69/718.16:
    
    I recognize that hygiene helps to minimize disease. And I recognize its
    general importance. But I do also believe that Americans get obsessive
    about smell. I am one of those Americans, and I know that I've been put
    off by bad foot odor, and I'm always embarrassed when my feet smell. I
    also have an expectation that people will use deoderant, and my nose
    wrinkles when they don't.
    
    But I firmly believe that this is conditioning. And that if I were
    conditioned to ignore it, all of the scent oriented products would seem
    pointless to me.
    
    Think about it this way: dogs and other animals have far more sensitive
    noses than we do, and they still sit in our laps and lick our faces.
    So, we don't smell like skunks.

    My reply to the old 717.69, now 718.16 is in the new 717.69 . . . 
    
    --bonnie

    re: .20 and ::Foster
    
          Okay, I agree with those points...but on the subject of
    menstruation, it isn't strictly a matter of bathing...the matter
    then becomes one of 1.  the sexual activities one might or might
    not do *because* of the method(s) employed (i.e., whether it's
    a pad, etc.) 2.  the intimacy (physical, mostly, but also emotional)
    that is allowed or not allowed due not only to the menstruation
    but *also* inflenced by the method of dealing with it (i.e., again,
    pads, etc.)
          I guess there were a couple of separate issues here.  Sorry
    if I confused them.
    
    Frederick
    

    Frederick --
    
    I guess I missed the other issue, though after going back and
    rereading, I see where you brought it up.
    
    For myself, the method of dealing with menstruation is fairly
    irrelevant because at that time of the month the tissues are
    generally so sensitive that almost any touch, especially in the
    external genital area, is unpleasant and painful.  
    
    The few times I have engaged in sexual activity at that time of
    the month, I have removed all methods, put a towel underneath,
    and, er, didn't the Stones have a song about this?
    
    --bonnie

    re .21, I don't see how straight women would know what other women do
    or don't do, sexually, when they have their periods.  I would think
    that people who have had a lot of different female sex partners
    would have a better idea of the problems involved in trying to have sex
    with women when they have their periods.  When I read your replies I
    found myself thinking - I don't know anything about this, I've never
    had sex with a woman!  It seems to me that what a couple does or
    doesn't do lovemaking when a woman has her period is just up to them. 
    If they both agree then there's no problem.  I don't think I understand
    your point.  I also don't see what difference it would make whether a
    woman were using a pad or a tampon.  In either case it would have to be
    removed in order to do it, wouldn't it???????
    
    Lorna
    

        Re bidets;
        
        I had one in my cottage back in UK, and it was used regularly.
        
        It was the same shape and size as the  toilet  bowl, and placed
        about  two feet to the side, matched in colour and  style,  and
        was plumbed in to the hot/cold water system.  It was  shaped to
        provide  a  comfortable seat, or it could be hovered over.  You
        had the  choice  of the central jet producing a mini 'fountain'
        of warm water,  and/or  the  option  of  closing  the drain and
        filling like a basin in order to wash by hand.
        
        I  was  told  by  women friends that  the  fountain  was  'very
        interesting'.
        
        

    I used the fountain in our hotel in Paris a couple of years back.  
    
    "Interesting" is true enough but scarcely does justice to the
    experience.
    
    --bonnie

re:sex during menstruation

You are right, Lorna. It hadn't occured to me until a few months ago, but I
really have no idea how other women handle this.  (Pardon me, this is about
to get very personal...;-)  But then I met a woman with whom I wanted to, uh,
share intimicies.  After some time, as we got more and more, uh, intimate,
I discovered that she was wearing a tampon.  I expressed some surprise (usually
when I had sex during menstruation, I removed all, uh, associated paraphernaila).
She expressed surprise that I was surprised.  "You don't do this?"  :-)  

(I pointed out to her that most of my sexual experience has been with men,
and that keeping a tampon in during, uh, coitus would be, well, unpleasant
if not impossible.  She said that hadn't occured to her!)

Diff'rent strokes.  (So to speak.  ;-)

D!

    Uh, er, not all hetersexual sex involves coitus . . . 
    
    --bonnie

    re .27, true, but it still seems like people couldn't do much if the
    woman had a tampon in.  Seems like it would still be a hindrance?
    
    Lorna
    

    re: .23 (Lorna) and .28 (also, Lorna)
    
          To your last question there, "no."  I have had intercourse
    with women who have kept the tampons in place, believe it or not.
    (Actually, the tampons were "out of place" by the time it was all
    over.  But then that made for an interesting time removing them.
    blush, blush...:-}  )  This method was the least "messy" method
    I have encountered.  It also doesn't work with all women (due to
    me [the string can be murder], due to them [not enough room], whatever...)  
    I'll forego any more details...
          So you see, methods *can* influence the activities a great
    deal.  The attitudes around all of this are extremely important, I
    feel.  
          Anyway, what sparks my interest in all of this is not the 
    mechanics...I'm very familiar with them already.  My interest lies
    in the emotional content of the interactions.  I very much want to
    have a close emotional relationship with whoever is in my life
    that has that specialness to me.  But, I have also had a few moments
    in my life around menstruation that made the emotions very difficult
    to deal with.  Sometimes I have failed to understand the lack of
    physical intimacy (irregardless of *sexual* activitiy) allowed,
    other times I have been angered at a woman's complacency and
    willingness to take me for granted (often by not asking what my
    feelings are around it, sometimes by assuming that because I'm a
    man I'm some sort of beast that doesn't care.)  
         Perhaps you are right, Lorna, maybe these aren't questions I
    can "share."  Maybe these are all issues I need to work out alone.
    "Listening" to what so many of you said, however, sort of allows me
    to see women in their uniquenesses so much more readily.  
         If you don't wish to pursue this further, that's fine.  Maybe
    just these few notes have been enough for me to see it in a somewhat
    different light.  Again, the question had to do with how to involve
    these menstrual activities with the physical intimacy/sexual intimacy.
    (Please note that I distinguish between both, yet both are often
    lumped together.)
         Thanks, again.
    
    Frederick
    
                      

    re .29, well, I think this is something that can be very awkward when
    people first begin a relationship, especially if the woman has her
    period the first time they decide to have sex and neither one knows how
    the other feels about it, but after people have been together for
    awhile it doesn't seem like a big deal.  They just have to talk about
    how they feel and if they're both happy with it there's no problem. 
    But, if one person isn't then I guess there could be a problem.  I'm
    just afraid that men will find it gross.  I hate the thought of
    offending someone's sensibilities. :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    I tried responding, and recognized that I find the question far too
    personal to answer here.
    
    I would suggest that Frederick ask his women friends, and any ex-girl
    friends, sisters, mothers, aunts, with whom he is comfortable.
    
    In light of current relationships, I would also recommend discussing it
    with your partner when neither of you are aroused, when she is not
    menstruating. That may be the best time to work out an aimiable
    solution.

    Sex that includes coition and other delights during a menstrual
    period can be quite clean.  Use a diaphragm.  Put the little "midnight
    trampoline" in without jell (or only what is needed for insertion)
    and it works quite well to hold back the flood while festivities
    of many varieties take place.  
    
    Leaving a tampon in, and tucking up the string, clears the area
    for (ahem) non-penetrating stimulation.
    
    Leaving in a small tampon and being very excited usually leaves
    enough space for the vagina to stretch to accommodate other, *larger*
    and more interesting objects.
    
    On the other hand, going natural with maybe just a towel underneath
    is great.
    
    Well, I wish you all interesting weekends.  :^)
    
       Margaret

> Sex that includes coition and other delights during a menstrual
> period can be quite clean.  Use a diaphragm.  Put the little "midnight
> trampoline" in without jell (or only what is needed for insertion)
> and it works quite well to hold back the flood while festivities
> of many varieties take place.  

Unless you are using some other form of contraception as well, never use a
diaphram without contraceptive jelly or foam.

You CAN get pregnant during your period. (Well maybe YOU can't, but people have.
What are *you* willing to bet?)

And using a diaphram during your period doesn't really make things "clean", it's
more a matter of "pay me now, or pay me later." I know - I have to wash the
damn thing out some of the time... It certainly makes things less messy, and
more convenient - I do recommend it unless you *like* things "messy", which you
might...

	-- Charles

    Margaret, you are too "delightful"!
    
    E Grace

    Further warning on "clean sex"  One of the items on the list of
    warnings with my cervical cap is NOT to use it during menses.  Prentif
    recommends using another form of birth control during your flow.
    Apparently there may be some relation to using the cap during your
    period and TSS.  I don't remember seeing the same warning on the
    diaphram instructions, but it might be something to keep in mind.
    
    Meg

    No, it is probably not good to leave a diaphragm in for the six
    or so hours required for its birth control function.  I was talking
    only about a diaphragm used for the purpose of holding back the
    menses and then removing it.  I wasn't talking about birth control.
    (It's been YEARS since I used a diaphragm for BC, so I can hardly
    recall how.) The jelly I mentioned is only to make it easy to insert,
    since jelly is not a gourmet treat, even the non-spermicidal variety,
    use only the smallest glob.
    
    If birth control is an issue then use effective birth control if
    it is appropriate to your sex life.

    The thing that worries me more, is that a woman is more vulnerbale
    to infection during menses and that menstrual fluid is probably
    not uninvolved in the transmission of AIDS.  So, even if birth control
    is not an issue, safe sex is.
    
    I feel weird when the talk turns to how messy sex during menstruation
    is.  Yes, the fluid stains sheets but it can be gotten out with
    a little care.  I think that sex with a man is far messier. The
    ejaculate is usually more copious than menstrual fluid (although
    it doesn't leave as tough a stain), it happens everytime and it
    goes everywhere unless confined to a condom. But if the sex is good,
    who gives a damn about flying fluids all over the place.  Messy
    is a state of mind, no matter if its white or red.  
    
      Margaret
              

    Ah Margaret, you're so right. Semen is something that we women
    have so few methods of coping with compared to menses, and
    yet for some, it is the semen that must be dealt with  BY WOMEN 
    with even greater regularity. I've never noticed any men wondering
    where it all goes after they've put it there!!! It does NOT stay there!
    
    I think all young kids should be taught that both sex is capable of
    mess-making. If males want females to be willing to deal with the
    semen, then males should be willing to deal with the menses,
    and vice versa. 

�    I've never noticed any men wondering
�    where it all goes after they've put it there!!! 
    
    What's to be curious about?  It's usually all too obvious...
    
    Ray

         Hmmm, well, I still feel a bit sheepish about responding here
    since I don't want to contribute to feelings of indignation, however
    righteous.
         However, your statements hardly seem balanced to me.  For
    starters, seminal fluid is not a "waste" product.  It is not
    deteriorating at the point of release, as is menstrual fluid.  
    Another point, it does not putrify as menses does.  A third,
    it is no where *near* as copious as menses.  A fourth, it *can*
    be directed (and if it isn't then it's due to conditioning, habit,
    etc.) far more easily than menses.  A fifth (as you pointed out)
    it has virtually no stain-making abilities that go beyond an
    initial cleansing, unlike the blood in menses.  Also, if the 
    parties are interested in doing so, it can be directed onto an
    outer part of the body (*either* body, for that matter) and
    can be absorbed within minutes, with no real visible effects...
    try that with menses.
         And I'm sure other reasons can be found.  In short, I can
    understand your desire to balance things out here, but in this
    particular area, they're not capable of being thusly treated.
    They are two separate events, two separate functions.  In fact,
    some women (and I have personally experienced it) have an ejaculate
    with is far more copious than most men's...therefore, these women have
    an additional concern (in regards to the "messiness" issue.)
         I felt that this was not about blame...not about finding fault
    with a normal biological function.  I felt that this issue had to
    do with describing some of the mechanics involved but also in dealing
    with all the emotions around these events.  Part of that emotion has
    to be in dealing with the attitudes around these particular function.
    To that end, if you find male ejaculate unappealing, that's okay, you
    are entitled to your feelings and opinions, I think.  But at the 
    very least, make the comparisons where they are appropriately made.
    I do not find a woman's menstruation disgusting, but I have often
    found the way that event is handled to be less than optimal and less
    than "enlightened" (calling it "the curse" for example, is
    self-degrading.)
    
          Thank you for allowing me to enter my opinion.
    
    Frederick
    

As for sex being "messy" well... some of us LIKE it that way!

	-- Charles

    RE: .39
    
    Good heavens!  I was talking about the perception that menses is
    a mess and pointing out that men create messes as well.  Myself
    I am a great fan of ejaculate and do my darndest to help my partner
    spurt as much possible as often as possible.  ( Gawd, I hope he
    doesn't ever read this, he'd die of embarrassment!!)  The issue
    is not blame (to my thinking) it is about the perception of ickiness
    and messiness.
    
    Anyway, yes, overall menses is more copious than ejaculate but in
    any given hour or so period, there is more E than M by far.
    Sure you can direct E prety much anywhere you want it to go, but
    that creates splootches all over.  Which is my point.  Many men
    (apparently not you) think E is great stuff and not messy whereas
    M is disgusting and messy in the extreme.  If sleeping in the wet
    spot is no big deal then it should not matter what (or who)
    created the wet spot.
    
    Woody Allen, when asked if sex was dirty, responded that good sex
    was.  Good sex is also messy.  (Great sex requires a change of sheets
    afterwards.   ;^)  
    
       Margaret  (nee Russell) Gonzalez
       (the system name change went through, 
        I must really be married now!)

    Margaret,
    
    I know it means extra typing, but could you please not use the letter E
    as a symbol for ejaculate.
    
    
    (*8
    
    
    E

    Although Margaret summed it up pretty well, this is what I wrote a
    while earlier, but was interrupted before I could finish. Sorry for any
    flames.
    
    re .39

    I don't recall saying that seminal fluid is a waste. I said that its a
    mess. Now maybe you don't agree, but considering that you usually have
    control over it, and its yours, I simply ask you to see it from MY
    point of view.

    Seminal fluid is not a product of my making, and I have very indirect
    control of where it goes. Its not something I'm proud of or excited
    about. I don't associate it with my own orgasm or pleasure. Since men
    control it, and probably associate it with orgasm and pleasure they
    probably tend to be more positive about it. As a heterosexual woman who
    is  not interested in creating life, semen has ABSOLUTELY NO REDEEMING
    VALUE, except possibly to indicate a male partner's pleasure, and its
    certainly not the only indicator. So to me, its just something I have
    to put up with or manage. 

    That is the context in which I presented the idea of mutual
    understanding between the sexes. I don't squirt a bunch of white stuff
    2 feet in front of me when I'm sexually excited. You don't release the
    entire inside lining of one of your major organs once a month. BUT, if
    you would be more understanding and accepting of how my body works, I
    will be more willing to be understanding and accepting of yours. I
    don't sense, in general, similar attitudes of acceptance and
    understanding about the two messes. And I think this needs some
    balance. Women don't usually get an opportunity to tell men that semen
    is not the most fascinating thing they ever saw. But there always seems
    to be an expectation that we welcome it. I for one would like to see
    some reciprocation. I'd like to be able to simply expect every man I
    meet to know and understand my expulsion of the uteral lining, and to
    take it for granted, maybe even celebrate it as a sign of the greatness
    of womanhood and fertility.
    And I'd like to be able to celebrate it too.
    It just seems like everything about the male body is good, and
    everything about the female body is bad. 
    
    SO WHAT if blood stains and semen doesn't!!! They are both sticky,
    messy, they get cold quickly, and I don't like to lie in them or have
    them all over me. And I really DON'T think that men care about where it
    goes once it leaves them, and I resent this. I resent how careful I
    have to be with menses, and how casual a man can be about semen. Like
    its his bloody right to ejaculate whenever and wherever he pleases, but
    its not okay for me to have my period once a month.
    
    I guess its more of a hot button than I thought.
    

    HeHeHe,
    
    Using the letter E had me in hysterics ;-)
    It may be true that there's more E than M but quantity isn't everything
    
    Humph!
    
    M

    Actually, its the use of BOTH the letter E and the letter M that makes
    *me* chuckle...
    
    Enjoy your dinner folks!

    >                   <<< Note 718.45 by ASDG::FOSTER >>>
    >                        -< Its an inside joke. >-
    
    
    'ren, I *still* say you have quite a way with words!  "Inside" joke
    indeed!
    
    
    (*8
    
    

    re: .43 (::FOSTER)
    
         Since you responded to me, I will respond to you.
    I was under the impression that this topic was about menstruation
    and, somewhere a long time ago, TSS.  My two or three entries 
    were intended to respond to that.  It sounds as though you have
    some anger issues about *attitudes* around menstruation.  I can
    not empathize, of course, but I *can* inform you that I have
    compassion for the situation and that I can understand, to the 
    extent I am able and with my own view of the matter, what the
    frustration and anger must be about.  
         I do think, however, that making comparisons to male ejaculation
    are not in keeping with the topic and are, as I stated already,
    not totally appropriate.  If you wish to argue that men show callous
    disregard for normal female functions then perhaps you are correct
    and have a serious issue to raise.  If you also wish to state that
    men in your reality seem to show little concern for their seminal
    contributions, then perhaps you also have a right.  But I really don't
    think it's fair play (and certainly not encouraging foreplay ;-} )
    to label men as uncaring.  Perhaps misinformed, ignorant, uneducated,
    non::FOSTER would be more appropriate.  I, for one, am more than
    willing to listen to a woman's views in regards to "fluids."
    I may not agree.  But I won't accept charges of insensitivity or
    understanding or caring or compassion or feelings just because I
    happen to have other ideas.  I have met lots of women in my decades
    on the planet.  They do not all share the same views.  Some might
    agree with you...some others will not.
         I do not wear my ejaculation as some sort of white badge of
    manhood.  And, like it or not, it is as much a normal bodily 
    function as menstruation is for women.  I may have more choice,
    but ultimately it will be there one way or another.  My involvements
    with women have been varied, to be sure.  Some have enjoyed what
    I have "had to offer" while others haven't seemed particularly 
    elated.  But if there is one that I would offend by doing things
    a certain way, then I'd better be prepared to either lose the 
    relationship or perhaps a certain part of my anatomy.  
         ::FOSTER, if you make yourself as expressive to your male
    mates as you have to this audience, I'm sure you can reach some
    sort of peace and agreement, both for your own functions and
    for the man's (or men's, whatever, I have no idea.)
         I'm sure your anger is shared by many women, and that there
    is gratitude in here for your willingess to share it and to 
    "bring it out into the open" but again, a little dialog may go
    a long way towards releasing the frustrations, angers,
    misunderstandings, etc.  
         Thank you for your candor.
    
    Frederick
    

    Yeah, but aren't the E and the M backwards???
    
    --bonnie

    I do not think I am backwards, --bonnie!
    
    (*8
    
    
    E

    No, no, no, I meant that in 'ren's note, the E and the M were the
    opposite of what . . . wait, that would sound even worse.  I give
    up.  Time to go home.  Time to call it a day.  (Hear that, Day? 
    You're being called.)
    
    --bonnie

    
    RE: .48 
    >    Yeah, but aren't the E and the M backwards??? 
    
      Kinky, decidedly kinky...
    
           :^)

        I *can* talk about other things, honest...;-)
    
        But, in the synchronicity of my reality, which happens more
    and more to me these days...
        Yesterday, in the San Jose Mercury in the Business section
    there was an article about new, "improved" sanitary napkins...
    I forget which company it is, but they have come out with a 
    new "brown" pad which consists of peat moss (from thousands of
    acres in Canada somewhere) that has been processed.  This is to
    replace the cellulose or fibers presently used.  Apparently it
    absorbs 12 times its weight...the new pads are one-fourth as
    thick as other pads made conventionally.  Anyway, it is now
    available in limited markets...some people seem to think they
    will fail because women will reject them based on their color.
        
         Normally I may not have noticed this article, but due to
    the heavy flow of words in here, I noticed and since no one else
    passed it on, I am...
    
    sincerely,
    Frederick
    

    re:peat moss
    
    How cyclical.  
    From leaves ->rags->cotton->synthetic toxic stuff->sea sponges & peat moss.
                                                          
    Miriam
    

    Well, here's one woman's perspective...
    
    ...why not brown?  I'd rather the industry would stop using bleach to
    make the products pure white.  So brown would be fine to me.
    
    Peat moss, huh?  Kind of strange but I think I could get used to it.
    
    judy

    I think if I wore one I'd feel kinda "bogged down".....
    
    -Jody
    

    ...but for those of us earthy types, it would be like coming home!
    
    
    E Grace

Oh, just LEAVE it alone.

D!

    in re last 3
    
    groan!
    
    BJ

	Oh, this is just too mulch to take!

    um, please, lets not get off on puns...
    
    
    huh, maybe, huh?
    
    Bonnie J

    You don't think they'd add fuel to the fire of this note?
    
    						Ann B.

    um, Ann?
    
    
    
    
    :-P! ;-)

    Do you suppose that's what Eve was doing with her fig leaves?
    
    --bonnie

    
    Oh, let's hear more... a good pun always bears rePEATing.
    
    =jamd	
    
    

    
    I don't think I've ever been able to come up with a pun -- either 
    good or bad! -- and they fascinate me.  Please keep it up!
    
    CQ

    I thought I was the only human being in the world to feel this way. 
    Should we start a support group?
    
    The worst part is that I have a background in English.  I just don't
    think in puns.  When I do make a pun, it is totally unintentional.  
    
    judy

    And the only puns I can make are bilingual. Useless in notes or at
    work. Maybe we do need a support group Judy
    
    manisha