Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    re .33, have colleges gotten more expensive in the last 10 yrs.?
    
    Lorna
    

    <have colleges gotten more expensive in the last 10 yrs?>
    
    you betcha!!!

    
    
    RE:  .35
    
    True, but financial aid for minorities has also gone up, as has minimum
    wage.  
    
    Colleges have seemed to become more expensive at a faster rate then
    inflation.
    
    NICK
    

    Colleges have seemed to become more expensive at a faster rate then
    inflation.

Small rathole...

There's no "seemed to" about it. They have. Inflation has been around 5%-6% per
year, college costs have been rising around 8% per year. I know because I've
been doing my financial planning around paying future college costs. I heartily
recommend that anyone with a small child go through this exercise - it's pretty
sobering. Basically if you have a kid you want to (be able to) put through four
years of college (or six...) you need to start saving NOW and you need to save
A LOT. And that's even assuming that the kid will get a certain amount of
financial aid, perhaps some scholarships, and will work part time...

How do people manage? Janice and I make a fair amount of money and it's going to
be painful for us, how do people not as well off manage? *This* is part of the
perpetuation of class distinctions in the U.S. To make the best money you have
to go to the best schools, to go to the best schools you have to pay a lot of
money, to pay a lot of money you have to make the best money... you get the
idea.

	YOW!
	-- Charles

    I'm hearing prices of anywhere from 10,000 to 17,000 dollars a year for
    tuition, room, and board.  Yikes~
    
    -Jody
    

    The Wall St. Journal had an article on saving for college tuition, last
    summer, complete with how much you should save based on the current
    age of your child.  My son at the time was 2 - according to the chart,
    I should be putting away $189 PER MONTH if we're aiming for a
    public/state college or $419 PER MONTH if we're hoping for a private
    school.
    
    Basically I'm hoping for a miracle.... and putting away $60 a month.
    

    My older daughter is going into her senior yr of a private college in
    Sept. (total cost so far?, $63,000)
    
    Our younger daughter is starting in a private colleg in Sept.
    
    Total cost for the two of them?
    
    AT LEAST $160,000.
    
    Where is the money coming from?
    We have a $17,000 mtg on a home worth about $185,000.
    Sometime this month or next month we will be refinancing the mtg for
    $150,000.

    The way  the financial aid used to work, saving money didn't help,
    since  the  aid  they offered was based on the parent's assets. So
    parents who spent every penny they earned had no assets, and their
    kid  got lots of aid. Parents who saved as much as they could were
    expected to put all the money into college costs.

    As Sara always says TANJ (There Ain't No Justice.)

--David

My planning has been on a baseline of $20,000 per year in today's dollars.
From what other people are saying that sounds like it's the right ballpark.

	-- Charles

I graduated less than two years ago from a prestitous private technical
university (RPI.)  The cost when I left was:  13K/yr tuition, aprx 7k/yr
room and board.  That's 20 thousand dollars a year.

how did I pay for it?  I took out loans (which I am currently paying off
at $250 a month), got a hefty scholarship (need based, not merit based, although
they take them away if you get below some minimum gpa), worked part-time
(work-study job, government subsidized), worked summers and had my parents
pay the remainder (about 2-3K per year.)  

What about kids who can't get the amazingly lucrative summer jobs I did
(thanks DEC!)?  What about the kids whose parents can't afford the 2-3K
(or however much) the FAF say they can?  What about the ones who are going
into a career that won't allow them to afford $250 a month student loan
payments?  (i can barely afford them myself.)  What about the ones that
go to private schools that aren't as loaded with money as RPI was for
scholarships?  I dunno, I guess they just don't go to good schools.

It sucks.

D!

    re .43 (Diana),
    
    Simple, don't go to private schools unless they are willing to make up
    the difference with scholarship.  Folks, going through college ain't as
    bad as it looks.  I went through a relatively cheap public school under
    circumstances that were rather extreme.  In short, if I can do it,
    everyone can.  To quote a Chinese proverb, "When the boat gets under
    the bridge, it will steer itself through."  In other words, don't worry
    about it.  Eventually, things will take care of themselves.  
    
    By the way, college cost can't go up at 8% every year.  At certain
    point, it will slow down.
    
    Eugene
                                            

>I dunno, I guess they just don't go to good schools.

	Maybe they go to a good school, but not the best school.

			Tom_K who went to a good school - Univ of Conn)

    Another alternative, although not perfect, but helps is to go
    to a co-op school.  My daughter is at Northeastern and tuition is
    approximately $20K now.  But she works half time (5 year program)
    allowing her to earn some money while she's in school.  Lots of
    pressure on the students to interview/find jobs in between
    semesters but it does help.
    
    ALso, lots of loans, grants, for both parent and student.
    Maia
    

    
    And I can just hear the sneers I'm getting by admitting to having
    started out at a <GASP!>...
    
    
    COMMUNITY COLLEGE!
    
    "I mean, they're okay, you know, but they're for the, you know,
    less-than-high-achieving kids who can't make it into the, you know,
    the GOOD schools."
    
    No, you snobby schmucks.  They're for the "pretty bright" oldest child
    from a family of eight children from a solidly middle-middle class family
    living in and owning their own house in a working class neighborhood.
    
    
    Then again, maybe this is just my insecurities showing.
    

>    No, you snobby schmucks.  They're for the "pretty bright" oldest child
>    from a family of eight children from a solidly middle-middle class family
>    living in and owning their own house in a working class neighborhood.

I don't have a problem with whatever college you chose to go to.

But, while maybe you went to a community college because you *wanted* to,
the truth is that many kids go there because they can afford it and they
can't afford to go to a private school, or even a state school.  Maybe *your*
community college offered *you* the education you wanted and needed, but 
it doesn't for everyone.

Community colleges only offer associate degrees (at least in Mass.)  Most
companies looking to hire engineers will only hire graduates with four-year
degrees. That leaves the kids who go to community schools up a creek.

The point is, why should someone who comes from a lower economic background
be forced to go to a school that doesn't offer the education s/he needs,
and which will *probably* (not definitely) mean s/he makes less money, and
therefore won't be able to afford to send *hir* kids to a better school etc,
etc.

I won't even get into the discussion about whether Community Colleges offer
better or worse education than private schools.  but the truth is that hiring
companies tend to have more respect for private schools, and since it is the
hiring companies that pay the salaries...well you can see the cycle.

D!
 

    
    re .48:
    WRONG!  I did not go there because I wanted to.  I went there
    because I couldn't afford to go anywhere else.

    
    re .48:
    
    Furthermore, what YOU may not know is that community college credits
    are completely transferrable to the "better" 4-year schools, which
    is exactly what I did.
    

    re .50,
    
    No they don't.  Not of the credits that really count toward a degree. 
    Come on!  College ain't that expensive.  Go to a cheap state school (the
    ones that cost < $5000 a year).  Make to the top of the class or
    something like that and you are as good as an average MITer and your
    salary will be just as competitive.  Not mentioning you will be offered
    TA's and RA's to become grad rats in the top notch schools to further
    your education on tax money.
    
    The old obnoxious college year Eugene speaks here.

    re .51:
    
    I beg to differ because ALL of my credits WERE accepted by
    the four-year college I went on to.  ALL OF THEM.
    

    Ellen, gently my dear, gently.  Remember the advice the electrician(*)
    gave me:
    
    THE BEST REVENGE IS LIVING WELL!
    
    and you're doing it!  ignore any snobs; they're not even worth your
    disdain.
    
    Sara
    
    (*) mind you, what he offered me was a JOB as his apprentice.  What he
    really wanted to offer me was a whole lot of stuff, 99% of which I did
    not want.  Yes, you are all imagining correctly.  He still owes me $60,
    from 1974 when $60 was still a Large Amount Of Money.  So I take not a
    small degree of comfort in his advice now! ;^}

    re .52,
    
    I would say that you took all the courses that were transferable.  One
    of my best friends did that.  But in my school (VPI), none of the third
    year level classes are transferable and there is a maximum number of
    transfered credits allowed which is just fine by most people.  Of course, 
    in those days (1982), it was not much more expensive to go to VPI than to
    go to a community college.
    
    Eugene

    
    re .54:
    
    Let me explain further.  It was my goal all along to finish at a
    4-year school, so, with that in mind, I could pursue two years at
    the community college, knowing that what I was taking was transferrable.
    And the entire two years was accepted by RIT.
    
    And the recruiters didn't care one bit where I had *started*,
    only that I had *finished* with a BS.
    

    re .55,
    
    I would say that you made a very smart move.  You are right the
    recruiters don't care where you start.  I think you have just made a
    case for my "college ain't that expensive" claim.
    
    I hope the worried parents here can relax a bit now.
    
    Eugene

    
    D!, this truely is a hot button of mine, and you have displayed
    all of the "myths" about community colleges:
    
>Maybe *your*
>community college offered *you* the education you wanted and needed, but 
>it doesn't for everyone.

    There are thousands of community colleges across the country.  The
    one I went to offered over a hundred different associates degrees in
    everything a general 4-year college does, with a good choice from both
    liberal arts and technical degrees.
    
>Community colleges only offer associate degrees (at least in Mass.)  Most
>companies looking to hire engineers will only hire graduates with four-year
>degrees. That leaves the kids who go to community schools up a creek.
    
    See my previous notes.  I was *IN NO WAY* left "up a creek".

>The point is, why should someone who comes from a lower economic background
>be forced to go to a school that doesn't offer the education s/he needs,
>and which will *probably* (not definitely) mean s/he makes less money, and
>therefore won't be able to afford to send *hir* kids to a better school etc,
>etc.
    
    HAHAHAHAHA!  It's news to me that I'm "making less money" than the next
    software engineer with my same experience.

>I won't even get into the discussion about whether Community Colleges offer
>better or worse education than private schools.  but the truth is that hiring
>companies tend to have more respect for private schools, and since it is the
>hiring companies that pay the salaries...well you can see the cycle.

    See previous note which says "It's not where you start, but where you
    *finish*!"
    

    Is there a note for "Women and Education"? Can this last portion of
    the string be moved to it?
    
    signed,
    
    Wondering in Walla-Walla

In that case, Ellen, you *did* go to a private school, and therefore what I
said about private schools applies to you.

Whether you spent two years or four years at a private school, you still
spent those two years there.  And $40K (or at least, that is how much it
would cost now - I have no idea when you were in school.)  

>and you have displayed
>    all of the "myths" about community colleges:

I don't believe any myths about community colleges. I have had enough to do
with them, their students, their teachers and their classes that I know how
they work.  (My father taught at one, half my friends went to them, I took
classes at them, I lived next door to one.)

>    WRONG!  I did not go there because I wanted to.  I went there
 >   because I couldn't afford to go anywhere else.

You prove my point on the nose - you went to a community college not because
you wanted to but because you couldn't afford to go to a private school.
So what is *your* point?  I said that the economics of education often mean
that kids (like you) can't choose schools based on what is best for them
(educationally, personally, etc) but on how much it costs.  

If you yourself couldn't afford to go to the college you wanted to, then
WHY ARE YOU ARGUING WITH ME THAT PRIVATE SCHOOLS ARE TOO EXPENSIVE?????

>    Furthermore, what YOU may not know is that community college credits
>    are completely transferrable to the "better" 4-year schools, which
>    is exactly what I did.

Of course I know that.  you obviously missed the title on my last note.
It was "Half of my friends went to Hudson Valley Community College."  That
is because it is very close to RPI and what a lot of kids did was go there
and then transfer into RPI.  I know the credits transer in. but you still
gotta pay RPI $20K a year to go there.

>>Community colleges only offer associate degrees (at least in Mass.)  Most
>>companies looking to hire engineers will only hire graduates with four-year
>>degrees. That leaves the kids who go to community schools up a creek.
    
>    See my previous notes.  I was *IN NO WAY* left "up a creek".

Cuz you could afford a private school. We are back where we started - kids
who can't afford a private school, or a state school for that matter, are
up a creek.  you were lucky in being able to afford it.  So was I.  We
are privileged. not everyone is so lucky and I don't think advancement
potential should be limited to those who happen to be born to middle class or
better parents.

>>The point is, why should someone who comes from a lower economic background
>>be forced to go to a school that doesn't offer the education s/he needs,
>>and which will *probably* (not definitely) mean s/he makes less money, and
>>therefore won't be able to afford to send *hir* kids to a better school etc,
>>etc.
    
>    HAHAHAHAHA!  It's news to me that I'm "making less money" than the next
>    software engineer with my same experience.

Er, ah, excuse me, Ellen, did you notice the *probably* above?  I didn't
say each and every one.  In *general* not you specifically. besides, as we
just established, you went to a private school, so it doesn't apply to you,
does it?

 >   See previous note which says "It's not where you start, but where you
>    *finish*!"

You finished at a private school!!!  You are not an example of someone who
only went to a community college, you are an example of someone who graduated
from a private school (and a fairly reputable one, at that.)

I'll say once again: in this country, the best educations (at least, as
percieved by hiring companies) are offered by private schools, and only
people who have enough money can go to private schools. (I realize that
some kids get scholarships - but that is the exception, not the rule.)

As for state schools being a replacement for private schools - ha!  I 
applied to UMass and RPI - RPI cost $20K a year and UMass cost $8K a year.
But UMass has no money to give for loans or scholarships, whereas RPI
has plenty - so in the end, it cost me the same amount (in cash) to go to 
either one. And that same amount is still a lot of money.

D!
 





 

    
    re D!
    
    I see you misunderstood my first note in this string.  It only
    says that I "started" at a CC.  In that particular note I did not
    say where I finished and you must have took from my first note
    that I *only* went to the CC.
    
    
    Eugene, yes, I hope we've given the worried parents here some hope!
    Trading two years of high-cost private tuition for low-cost public
    tuition was a very good savings.  If parents here are further worried,
    FWIW, most of the private schools are *anxious* for kids to transfer
    in from other schools.  RIT really went out of their way for all of the
    CCers transfering in that year, and there were a bunch of us.
    

Ellen, I think all of us are in vociferous agreement. I personally think that
people who go to state colleges and community colleges are AT LEAST as smart
and competent as those that go to private schools.

That's *why* the very real dichotomy between "good" private school grads'
salaries and public school grads' salaries is so unfair. It's NOT "what you
know" it's "where you went" that, in many cases, determines how much you make.
Much less so in technical fields like ours, but much more so in, say, business
or banking.

"It takes money to make money." My point was that this is just another example
of how class distinctions are maintained in the U.S. Yes, our class divisions
are relatively blurry, and perhaps we have more inter-class mobility than other
societies - but we are NOT a "classless society" (except perhaps in the snide
sense...)

Do you consider yourself "middle class?" Let's assume, for the sake of argument,
that you wanted your (hypothetical) kids to be in the "upper class." What would
it take? For one thing - money. Money that you may or may not be able to scrape
up. How much harder, and even less fair, it is for those brilliant geniuses who
happen to be born in the "lower class." For whom even community college is a
luxury.

Check out "Stand and Deliver" for an example of what I'm talking about. It could
have been my highschool in that movie. That movie hit so close to home it hurt.
I *know* kids like that - I grew up with them, I went to school with them, hell
I *was* one of them. I *cried* when those kids went back and took the test again
and won.

The system sucks. I hate it. I'm going to beat it - dammit. But the problem is
beating it without becoming exactly that which I hate.

[Which perhaps brings us back to the topic...]

	-- Charles

    I have 2 associate degrees, one liberal arts and one paralegal.  I also
    knew someone here at DEC when I got my job.  Six months before that I
    was on welfare.
    
    My daughter wants to be a doctor.  She has been nominated for the Johns
    Hopkins Center for Talented Youth program (for 7th graders) and took
    the SAT tests in January to qualify.  We are waiting for her scores.  I
    hope she makes it, because jI can see all kinds of scholarships
    available to her just by being in the program, and she's gonna need
    them because I don't have any savings.
    
    Proud as all get out!
    
    sue

    Well, I might as well throw in my three cents worth.
    
    The quality of the state schools varies widely from state-to-state. 
    Some state schools are recognized as being good in one area, others for
    a different area of study. 
    
    When I was first applying to school I was certain that I wanted to
    study chemical engineering.  I applied to a number of private and
    public schools.  I almost was forced to go to a state school because of
    funding problems.  
    
    When I got to school and took my first chemical engineering class, I
    hated it. Luckily, the school I attended had a large enough selection
    of engineering majors that I was able to choose a different major that
    I really enjoyed, Materials Science.  The state school did not offer
    that.
    
    It really riles me up when people say all schools are equal no matter
    if they're state, public, or your Aunt Tillie's home college in
    OshKosh.  That's not true.  The quality of the teaching staff may be
    poor.  There may not be enough resources to provide more advanced 
    classes.  If you are a technical major, the labs may not be well
    enough equipped. If your state school is one that's good
    in the field you want to study then you're lucky.  It's very expensive
    to attend a state school outside of the state you live in.
    
    My experience was that I ended up being happy in the field of
    microelectronic fabrication.  This was after I had tried and discarded
    chemical engineering, electrical engineering, and polymer science.  I
    think I was very lucky that I was able to go to school where I did,
    where I could sample as  many different majors as I did.  Chances are
    very strong that if I had gone to my state school that I would not have
    been happy with my major. 
    
    And I know that if I had gone to my state school that I would have been
    very unhappy in my personal life too, but that's another story.
    
    Lisa

    I think it is a myth that the best schools are all private.  In fact,
    there are as many top notch public schools as there are top notch
    private schools.   U.C. Berkeley, U.C. LA, U.C. Sandiego to just name a
    few.  The top four Electrical Engineering schools are: U.C. Berkeley,
    MIT, Standford and U of I.  The top five CS schools are: Standford,
    CMU, MIT, Berkeley and U of I.  University of Michigan Law school ranks
    second (after Harvard).  U.C. San Francisco has one of the best medical
    schools.  So Charles, if you live on the west coast, I don't think you 
    have anything to worry about.  As for second tear schools, there are
    more state universities in that class than the private institutions.  
    Almost all the big midwest schools (Ohio, Illinois, Purdue, Wisconsin,
    Michigan) are better academically and more comprehensive than 
    almost all the private schools after the top notch ones.  Besides, 
    Stony Brook is as good as RPI. :-)  
    
    Eugene

    And if one wants to get a good education, don't go to top notch
    schools!  They will have hords of grad students teaching courses.  I
    mean would you pay a fortune and have guys like me teach your kid
    calculus?  Lisa has a point that one should go to a more comprehensive
    school, but there are more big state schools than private schools.  Of
    course, Charles' point about "who you know rather than what you know"
    remains valid especially in business and law.
    
    Eugene

    Rmemeber, a state school is only a "bargain eduation" if you are a
    resident of the state.
    
    UC Berkeley may have a fantastic program, but unless you are a resident
    of CA, it costs as much as it does to go to a private school.
    
    If you just *happen* to live in a state that has a fantastic state
    school for what you want to study, you are golden.  But I hardly think
    that is a valid substitute accesible education for all kids.
    
    Besides, state schools pretty much universally share an attribute which
    I, personally, and many other people, consider a flaw: they are BIG!!
    The really good state schools (UMich Ann Arbor, UC Berkeley, etc) tend
    to be ENORMOUS!  Some people might like that - some, like me, would
    probably have had a miserable time.  RPI was about as big a school as I
    could handle: ~5000 students, including grads.  It was small enough to
    provide personalized attention and to care about its students (although
    some other people who went there may disagree. :-)  A good friend of
    mine went to University of Arizona (a reasonable school) and they
    didn't know she existed!  RPI can do things like guarantee housing for
    all students - my friend couldn't get housing even as a freshman!
    
    D! 

    After reading .64:
    
    Another thing you have to separate is graduate study vs. undergraduate.
    If the graduate school is good, it doesn't necessarily mean the
    undergraduate dept is good, and vice versa. Graduate school is an
    entirely different ball game. 
    
    I'd like to go back to grad school and get my master's degree.  I'm
    looking at, yes, a state school.  Why?  Because the group of professors
    I'd be working with are well known, and have published extensively in
    the area in which I'm interested (semiconductor processing).  But the
    undergraduate school is not as well known and does not have as good a
    reputation.  (Possibly because the school system as a whole in the
    state is not that great)
    
    
    Some state schools have some great undergraduate departments.  If you
    are lucky enough to live in the right state, you can take advantage of
    this.
    
    Lisa
    

    Graduate students teaching classes.....
    
    As if the professors ever taught classes!!!! =)
    
    Where I attended, the professors taught the lectures (which could be
    huge, with 400-500 students each), and the graduate students taught
    smaller "recitations" with 20-30 students.
    
    Major problem with the grad students: didn't speak English.
    Major problem with professors: too busy consulting.
    
    I ended up having good and bad of each.  The classes where I did the
    best were those where I liked my prof and TA.  Then came those where I
    liked the TA, then those where I liked the prof, and then those where I
    hated both.
    
    I've had some great professors, and some great TA's....problem with
    profs is that they were inaccessible, especially when they were
    teaching 500 students.
    
    Lisa

    
    Public schools can still be a relative bargain even for out of
    state students depending on the availability of scholarships,
    fellowships, and on the developmental plans of the school.
    For example, William and Mary put on a push in the 70's to
    boost their nationwide recognition.  This involved recruiting
    more students from the West, Midwest, and Northeast.  Along
    with the recruiting, they wheedled money from the state for
    scholarships and fellowships.  When I went there, they offered
    me one of each which (fancy that) exactly covered my tuition.
    I had to pay for a room (limited graduate housing) and food
    if I didn't feel like walking to the commons.  They broadened
    their student base and made valuable connections with other
    schools.  We got a good education for less.  One of the upshots
    of this was W&M's high ranking in "The Public Ivys", which
    they now quote liberally during fundraising...
    
    The trick is to see who's on the rise and looking for
    recognition.
    
    Ron

    re .40 (borrowing 150,000)
    
    I expect that to delay my retirement for about 5 years

    Three months from today -- almost to the minute -- my daughter
    graduates from college.  She chose to go to a respected private school
    in her chosen major (hotel/restaurant management) rather than the well
    known Ivy League school because she  didn't want to be in debt for the
    rest of her life.  Stacy has a 3.7 gpa but has been receiving a $1000 a
    year "Academic scholarship" while two of her friends with substantailly
    lower gpa's receive much higher "academic" scholarships because I make
    "too much" money.  (Then why call them academic scholarships?)
    
    Stacy has been inelidgible for loans -- same reason -- except for a
    $1000 loan her freshman year.  The good news is she will get out od
    school relatively debt free.  The bad news is the $600+ for tuition has
    come out of my pocket every month and she has worked 20-30 hours a week
    for the last 3 years to pay her room and board.  Is that the worst
    thing in the world?  No.  Is it worth it for her to have a good
    education.  Yes.  Am I glad that I don't have kids who will be heading
    for college in the future.  You bet!
    
    Polly
    
    P.S.  The irony about the "too much" money deal is that 5 years before
    she started school I was making 1/3 what I made the year before she
    started college.  Then to be told that I should be able to foot college
    bills that amounted to more than 1/4 of my gross pay before Stacy would
    be considered for financial aid.......    

    re .33 (Diana),
    
    A friend called over the weekend from Berkeley.  He said the graduate
    tuition (which is supposed to be higher than the the undergraduate) for 
    out state is $7556 for the 1990-1991 school year.  Much lower than the 
    13k/year (of two years ago) at RPI.  Also Berkeley is
    sitting on a very expensive piece of real estate (where the rent was so
    high that they had to institute rent control).  Any other place will
    charge a much lower tuition (especially the midwestern schools which is 
    probably as good if not better than RPI).  Of course, your point about
    state school being big remains valid...  Well, one can always go to
    U.C. San Diego.
    
    Eugene

> As a previous note said, you'd have to put away several hundred dollars a
> month for your one year old to afford college, or you can refinance your
> house, or pay off loans until you die. It is absurd.

Not necessarily absurd. Inequitable perhaps, but I personally believe I got good
value for my money. I'm willing to save the several hundred dollars a month
needed for college for my kid(s) and gladly too. If you don't think it's worth
it, don't save and pray for a miracle. What makes me furious and sad is that the
high cost of college is making it impossible for poor and soon even middle
class kids to go to the college of their choice, or even the best college for
which they are qualified. I have no sympathy for those who could save the money
but choose to spend it on other things - that's your decision, and if you end
up working for my kids I don't want to hear you complaining. However it's
those who would save the money if they could - but can't - those are the one's I
feel sorry for.

I will mortgage my house if needed, and cheerfully too, to give my kids all the
education they are willing to get.

	-- Charles

    You know, it's funny.  If you hang around a college, even once or twice
    a week, being with friends but not taking classes, you STILL fall prey
    to the circadian rhythm of their term or semester system.  You *will*
    feel antsy and nervous at midterm time.  You WILL be tired the last
    week of the term for no apparent reason.  It's contagious!
    
    -Jody
    

Oh, Jody, I have been out of school for almost two years and I *still*
measure things in semesters.  Everything is either "next semester" or
"last semester" or "next summer" or "last summer."  Life has three seasons...
first semester, second semester and summer.  :-)  And I *still* get
really nervous right before Christmas and mid-may.  (Finals time.)

Course I do still seem to hang around student types a lot.

D!

    me too! and I've been out of school for more than two years now.
    Wondering what to do in my spring break right now
    manisha

I don't think in terms of school vacations, but every September I
get jealous of all the people starting out a new school year.

Kathy

    And I get jealous every May/June when school lets out for the summer!
    It's still ingrained in me that we should all have the summer off!
    

    I still want the summer off as well! Before I came to Dec 7 years ago
    I earned my living teaching college, so I never got out of the semester
    system! Now that my kids are in college I think that way, inregards
    to when they will be home.
    
    Bonnie

    re .45, really, Kathy?  That's funny because every September I still
    thank God that I don't have to go back to school and I've been out of
    high school for 23 yrs.!  :-)
    
    Actually, Bruce Springsteen said that during one of his concerts once. 
    He said, "Hell, I've been outa school for almost 20 yrs. and I still
    thank God everytime September rolls around and I realize I don't have
    to go back to school!"   (There was thunderous applause from the
    crowd.) :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .48, fortunately for Bruce, his attitude towards school hasn't
    affected his income as negatively as mine has! :-(
    
    Lorna
    

     
    I'm with you, Lorna.  Every September, I can *taste* the
    freedom of not having to go back to school.  That's my
    time to feel revenge on all those teachers and students who
    had the *whole* summer off!
    

	Every March I wish I was on Spring Break! %^)

    I work at a college radio station and my current SO is still an
    undergraduate.  I find myself trying to balance a 9ish to 5ish schedule
    that my work demands with the 2pm to 2am schedule of people in school.
    It's really bad on the weekends when it's 1 am and I'm ready for the
    sack, and they're ready to keep going.  
    
    The one thing I miss most about school was having more flexibility
    about when you got things done.  Being a night person it was much
    easier to roll out of bed at 9:00 AM and go to bed at 1am than it is
    now to go to bed at 11am and get up at 7AM.  Those couple of hours
    really affect me.  And besides the most interesting things happened
    after 11pm.  (I still beleive this)
    
    I'd go back to being a student again.  In fact, I'm trying.  Through
    GEEP.  (Not this fall, but fall 92)
    
    Lisa

Yup, really Lorna. ;-)

I loved school 'cause I didn't spend the whole day doing
one thing. An hour here thinking about English, an hour
there thinking about history, an hour there thinking about
graphic arts, or whatever.

Kathy

    We don't need no education.
    We don't need no thoughts control.
    ...
    Hey teacher, leave us kids alone!

From Clarinet, with permission.

	-- Charles

Article: 187 of clari.news.issues.family


 UPI Newsfeature
	
                       By FRANCES ANN BURNS
                    United Press International
	There's a simple way to get a leg up towards a good lifetime income --
be the son of a high-income father.
	A Princeton University economist who studied 876 pairs of fathers and
sons found that sons of fathers in low-income brackets tend to end up in
the same bracket and vice versa.
	``What I find is that there is much less mobility in the United
States economy than had previously been believed,'' David Zimmerman said
in a recent interview.
	Earlier studies reached the same conclusion. But Zimmerman said his
is the first to track income data over a period of years instead of
taking a snapshot.
	Zimmerman, a lecturer and Ph.D. candidate at Princeton, used the
National Longitudinal Survey, a database assembled at Ohio State
University that tracked two groups of older and younger men for 15
years. He found 876 father-son pairs.
	Looking at information on income and job type, Zimmerman found that
40 percent of the sons whose fathers were in the bottom 25 percent in
income in 1965 were in the same quartile themselves in 1980 and 69
percent were in the lower half. Only 12 percent had risen to the top 25
percent.
	At the same time, 41 percent of the sons with fathers in the top 25
percent in income were in that quartile 15 years later and 9 percent
were in the lowest income group.
	Almost half -- 49 percent -- of the sons of professional men were
professionals themselves, while 11 percent held blue-collar jobs. On the
flip side, 45 percent of the sons of blue-collar workers had the same
type of job and 16 percent were in the professions.
	``Mobility seems to be about the same whether you're born into the
highest or lowest income distribution,'' he said.
	Zimmerman concluded that the correlation between a father's income
levels and those of his son is .4. In lay terms, that gives a son a 4
percent income advantage for every 10 percent his father's income is
above average.
	Previous studies had found a .2 correlation.
	In Great Britain, traditionally thought to be a class-bound country
with less social mobility, the correlation is .45, only slightly more
than the United States, according to Zimmerman.
	What's to account for this? Zimmerman believes that what holds the
poor down and keeps the rich up is access to education.
	``The link in educational attainment across generations can explain
about 60 percent of the link in earnings across generations,'' he said.
	Although his sample included only working people, Zimmerman suggested
that his findings may indicate that welfare is not the trap some people
have thought, breeding dependence across generations.
	``What we may be seeing when the children of parents on welfare go on
welfare themselves is the intergenerational transmission of poverty,''
he said.
 adv mon feb 25 or thereafter

    wonder how daughters do?
    
    Sara
    

    re .56, it depends on who they marry.
    
    Lorna
    

    Actually, I remember reading a brief article (aren't they all) in
    U.S.A. today on this study, and they said the female equivalent study
    was underway.
    

    I believe the coorelation is biological, not environmental.
    I used to think the opposite until i discovered my birth heritage.
    I am not at all like the people who raised me from age 1.
    I was raised by a family which devalued education, and was at the
    lowest end of the income scale.  I worked thru my own education,
    got a job at the same (relative) pay scale and in almost the same
    location as the grandfather who evicted my mother when she was
    pregnant.  Thirty years later.  Certainly it would have been
    easier to have been raised different.  I don't think the results
    would have differed much at all.  Without a low-cost state college
    I'd still be pouring cement.

    There were 12 biological grandchildren of the couple who reared me.
    Only one of them finished high school, and she works as a waitress.
    (for a Trump casino).   mwr    

    re .59,
    
    I doubt that very much.  Genes do play a role in a person's
    intelligence, but it is easily overwhelmed by the environment. 
    Besides, raw intelligence doesn't transfer directly to money.  Just
    look at how much Einstein made in his life time.  
    
    On the other, hand, if daddy has a few million bucks, ya bet the son 
    is gonna land a lucrative job even with an IQ of 100.  If money is all 
    that matters, whom you know is much important than what you know.  
    Yea, it is cynical, and I don't like that either, but it is also the fact.
    
    Eugene

    re .60, I agree with you.  I think .59's experience is the exception to
    the norm.
    
    Lorna
    

    Re: .32
    
    >And if one wants to get a good education, don't go to top notch schools!  
    >They will have hords of grad students teaching courses.
    
    Not all of them.  There's at least one Ivy League school that hardly
    has grad students, let alone grad students teaching.
    
    One big advantage of private schools over state universities is that
    they tend to be smaller.  My brothers all went to Texas A&M, which has
    a student population of some 36,000-40,000 people.  That's larger than 
    the town we lived in.  I much prefer a less crowded environment.

    re .62,
    
    Would you tell me what that school is?  My memory is fading these days.
    
    ...
    
    Of course, we all prefer small schools, but 30,000 seems to me to be 
    too heavy a price to pay for the smallness.  I went to a school of over
    25,000 students, but I had no problem getting attention from the
    professors.  Contrary to popular beliefs, most professors are very 
    interested in teaching students who genuinely want to learn.  As a 
    matter of fact, they are dying to tell someone what they do.  See 
    most of these people are idealists (otherwise, they could easily double 
    their pay in industry) spending their lives in pursue of a dream, doing 
    things few in the world could understand.  What those fellows can't 
    stand are students who had no interest in the subject and just want to
    pass the course.  What this does is indirectly insulting the ideals they
    cherish most in their lives and painfully reminding them how little the
    world cares about their ideals.  Treat them as our peers and friends
    rather than the inpersonal authoritative figure who will pass or fail
    us.
    
    Eugene

    
    
    
    
    
    >And if one wants to get a good education, don't go to top notch
    >schools! They will have hords of grad students teaching courses.
              
    I didn't go to a top-notch school.....and 50% of my teachers were grad
    students (who didn't know English well enough to get across the points
    they were trying to make).
    
    It's most DEFINITELY not limited to top-notch schools (then again, Univ
    of Arizona, was a good school).
    
    k
    
    

�    >And if one wants to get a good education, don't go to top notch schools!  
�    >They will have hords of grad students teaching courses.
�    
�    Not all of them.  There's at least one Ivy League school that hardly
�    has grad students, let alone grad students teaching.
    
    Yes, one way around this is to go to a top-notch college which either
    has no graduate school (e.g., Haverford) or has a very specialized one
    (e.g., Bryn Mawr).  I agree that, from everything I've heard, doing
    undergrad work at Harvard, for example, is somewhat a waste of money --
    you're basically helping finance the grad school -- but you still have
    access to a good library, a city, and fellow students, which were the
    most important components of MY education.
    
    Ray

    re .65,
    
    There is a problem with those small colleges good as they are.  When a
    school does not have a graduate program, the faculty has a tendency to
    slip away from the current research frontier.  This is not a problem
    unless the student wants to go to a graduate school.  That is when
    those never-have-enough-time-research professors come in handy
    especially when one is on friendly term with them.  They will tell you
    where to apply and whom to call.  They will say something like, "Yea,
    you might want to talk to so and so at Stardford.  I did a paper on
    French food with him last month.  Would you like me to call him?" or
    "University of Washington at Saint Louis MI is getting really good in
    geometry, you should talk to prof. Frankenstein there." and etc.  After
    you send out applications, they will call the directors of the graduate
    schools and the conversation will go like this:
    
    S: "Hi prof. Z This is Robert S. at U of so and so."
    
    Z: "Hi Bob, what's up?"
    
    S: "We have a student here who is quite good.  He did so and so with
        me."
    
    Z: "Wait a second...   Yea, I got his application here.  We also got
        your letter."
    
    S: "He is interested in French Food and Waste and Sewage Management,
        and I think the stuff Dan Frankenstein is working on will be a
        perfect match for him."
      
    Z: "Have you talked to Dan?  The Sewedge system at the University Inn
        overflown (Those people ate too much of those darn French food) 
        last week and Dan just got a huge government grant to study the 
        problem which will be spread out for five years, and then 
        we will come up with another proposal to fix the problem.  Will he
        interested in that?  Wait, he is a foreign student.  How is his 
        English?  You know we have got a lot of complaints about foreign
        grad. students who can't speak English"
    
    S: "I will let you talk to him...  By the way, what does sewage system
        have got to do with English?"
        ...
    
    So six months later, the student gets a research asistantship at Starford
    university.
    
    Eugene

re .66:

    Oh?  I know that's the theory - and undoubtedly true at some schools -
    but my experience has been that even at schools without graduate programs,
    the faculty are still measured by "publish or perish", not teaching
    ability... so the incentive to do research is still present.

        Sharon

    re .67,
    
    Sharon, I have never been in a private liberal art school.  Since you
    graduated from one, I will take your word for it.  However, in my
    fields (Math/EE/CS), I haven't come accross any research paper written 
    in those schools.  Of course, I don't claim to have read all the paper
    published in these fields.                 
    
    Eugene