Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    Everything I've seen about Norplant says its easily removed (by your
    doctor) and things get back to normal quickly (1-2 months). So, if you
    only had it in for 2 years or 3 years, that would be 2-3 years to plan,
    to think about it, to prepare yourself AND simultaneously 2-3 years to
    not think about it, to enjoy your husband, your home, your lifestyle.
    
    Maybe, before you make your decision, you should offer to baby-sit for
    your nieces or nephews for a week or two, without interruption.
    Children are easy to handle when you can hand them back to their
    parents! 
    
    I'm a big advocate of planning for children. So that's where I'm coming
    from.

    you do want kids, and you don't.  You enjoy them, but you fear the
    impact they will have on your life.  There's a lot you want to do
    first, and you know that neither life nor achievement die when you have
    kids.  You think you have it too easy now (STOP THAT!!!!!), and you
    worry about how hard it would be to raise kids and a career at the same
    time.
    
    Sounds to me like you have a good grip on the problem description!  All
    the things you mentioned are true (except the "I don't deserve it"
    part) even though they sometimes are contradictory.
    
    In addition to all you mentioned, I worried about the loss of my free
    will, which is very important to me.  I knew (and my experience
    confirmed) that by and large, a woman has little choice other than to
    fiercly love her child, and that this has a large impact on what her
    later life.  (Can't speak for dads, since I'm not one :-)
    
    I liken deciding to have kids to jumping in a big river.  You jump, no
    one pushes you.  The current is strong, and you can't direct it or
    control it, but though the current takes you, you can swim in it.  Once
    you're in, you're committed.  Come to think of it, this describes life
    in general (except for choosing to jump in).
    
    Good luck, anon, and don't worry; whatever path you choose will have
    both joys and regrets.  Feel free to send mail if you like, or not if
    you don't.
    
    Sara, mom of Tracy, 8 (born when I was 30) and Adam, 6
    	(and done, barring accident!)
                                                

    > When we talked tonight, my usually cautious, intelligent husband told
    > me that he believes in FATE (!) when it comes to children.  He doesn't
    > want me putting (as he calls it) foriegn crap in my body, and he
    > believes when we have kids, we'll have them.  He thinks we should just
    > keep going along as we have been. 
    
    ai-yah.  I'm not hearing this with an open heart.  I don't know the
    individuals involved, nor do I wish to slander anybody.  But the best
    possible interpretation that I can give to this is that the husband
    doesn't know what he wants and is therefore avoiding making a decision.
    Which is to say, ducking responsibility.  Which isn't to say he can't
    make a decision, but he hasn't stepped up to his responsibility to do
    so.  I'd say you, the anonymous noter, need to work with him to help
    him discover what he wants, so he can decide how he wants to handle his
    responsibilities at this stage of the decision process you both are
    participating in.  If you can't get him to pull his share, you've got
    to make the decidion alone, without knowing his needs, and it didn't
    sound from your note like you wanted to do that.
    
    Pardon me if I'm being too intrusive, but that communication gap leaped
    out of your account.
    
    DougO

    I agree with .3 It sounds as though your husband does not want to make
    the decision. (I have always suspected I was an unplanned/unwanted
    child, which is where this next comment is coming from):
    
    DO NOT have children until you AND your husband are 110% sure that it
    is what you want. To paraphase another noter (I don't remeber who), If
    you decide you don't want children you can change your mind in a year
    or so. If you decide to (or accidently) bring a child into this world, it
    is NOT a versable decision.
    
    Please think long and hard and discuss this to the max with your
    husband. Explain your reasoning to him as you have here. I personally
    feel that your reasoning is quite sound. 
    
    good luck,
    
    dee

    As a writer who is the mother of three kids aged 15 months to 17
    years, I wanted to comment on a couple of specific aspects of what
    you're worried about. 
    
    First of all, unplanned does not equal unwanted; some surprises
    are the best thing that could happen to a person.  My last child
    falls under that category.  There could be another surprise like
    that, I suppose, since I'm not into putting chemicals into my
    body, either.  If we really, really, really didn't want another
    child, we'd be using something less accident-prone.
    
    Second, if you want to write, you can write with, as you put it,
    kids hanging around your ankles.  It's not the easiest thing in
    the world, but it's far from impossible.  I write before they get
    up in the morning, while they nap, at noon at work, after they go
    to bed at night.  I haven't managed to get published yet, but in
    the past 8 years I've finished three novels, 7 short stories, and
    two pregnancies :)  Lots of women and more than a few men have
    written best-sellers under similar circumstances. 
    
    Third, I can guarantee that about two weeks after you find out
    you're pregnant, you'll start wondering if you've made an awful
    mistkae.  Well, maybe not guarantee, I suppose there are many
    women who never doubt their decision, but I sure had second
    thoughts after it was too late to change my mind . . . and third
    thoughts and fourth thoughts.  The worst ones come about two hours
    before the baby is born... and sometimes after.
    
    I'm not going to offer you any advice -- only you can make a
    decision, and I wouldn't presume to say that what was right for me
    would also be right for you.  The decision about having a child is
    pretty much irrevokable, but the decisions around it aren't -- you
    can decide you want to find care for the child and go back to
    work,  you can go back to school, you can move to the tropics or
    the arctic, go to the far corners of the world with the baby on
    your back.  A child limits you only as much as you want to be
    limited. Economics and fear are much more confining and much more
    difficult to overcome.
    
    --bonnie

I watched ashow last night were Ursala K. Le Guin mentioned that she'd written
her books while raising three children. I'd say she'd done OK. :*) liesl

    Now THERE is a role model!
    
    --bonnie

        Okay, I'll stick my neck out.
        
        Where does  a husband get off `telling' his wife what will be
        and what will  not  be ?  `Fate' or not, I think the decision
        to have children should  be  a 100% MUTUAL decision from BOTH
        parties involved, when you're BOTH  ready to have them.  Yes,
        I agree with the planning of  children.    Specifically after
        you've  had  time to spend with that  person,  building  your
        finances/careers/home/et al up so you have what you want/need
        to start/support a family.  
        
        Or is this a na�ve way of thinking or what ?
        
        Matt

    re .9 umm, doesn't that woman risk losing her SO ? Hardly a
    'winning' scenario. Depends on which 'loss' is felt to be
    greater. 
    
    I don't think anyone who wants kids will be totally happy in a
    relationship with someone who doesn't. They have to decide if
    maintaining that less-than-perfect relationship is worth more
    to them than the chance of finding someone else who shares their
    desire for children. (And how many people really know their 
    value hierarchy ?)
    
    Dana

re: .8

Not exactly naive, Matt -- it's just not always as easy as one would
think to to decide when you're both ready.  

Having children is a gamble.  In a very real sense you put your life on
the line -- you have to believe life will go on, and that on whole it 
will be more good than bad.  You gamble that your marriage and
the economy will hold together, that you won't go through a traumatic
personal crisis that changes your world view, that your child will be
born healthy, that you yourself will remain healthy and able to support
your child.  If you're having a child outside a conventional marriage, you
have to worry about whether public intolerance will damage the child. 

You worry about whether you'll be able to control your temper, about 
whether you'll wind up resenting the child for tying you donw.  And
you don't really know until after you have the child and it's too late
to change your mind. 

I couldn't blame anybody who decided that it really wasn't fair to the 
child to bring it into this world of war and strife, or to feel that they
weren't personally strong enough to take the responsibility for nurturing
another person.  It's a tremendous task.  

Perhaps the get to know each other, build up your financial base way of
proceeding is the best way to proceed, but it isn't always possible. I
came into my present marriage with a daughter already in tow.  We've never
had a chance to know each other as a couple, without children, and I expect
it will be really interesting when the last one leaves home 20 years 
or so from now.  

And waiting until you can "afford" a child can become a self-prolonging 
excuse -- a child can eat up (and wear out) all the income any two 
parents can bring in.  There aren't any limits to the wants, from 
beautiful crib and dresser sets to the best private colleges.  But 
you don't *have* to spend that much.  Being broke when you raise a kid
is no fun, as many women in here can testify, but being rich is not in
any way a requirement. The love is much more important than the material 
environment. 

So while you're right in theory, in practice it becomes a lot more
complicated than that.

--bonnie

    re.0
    
    In reading, and re-reading your note, I can sympathise with your
    confusion.  There are several issues buried in there!
    
    Timing, planning, consensus, contraception methods & choices
    
    Taking one at a time they can be tough, but taken all at once they must
    seem pretty staggering.
    
    o Contraception methods/choices.  I can sympathise with your husband's
    wish that you not put chemicals in your body.  Tampering with nature
    usually carries some risk and most do not like to see their loved ones
    at risk.  That being said, it is also true that pregnancy carries risks
    of it's own greater for most than do pharmaceutical conceptive methods.
    Does your husband 'not want' you to do this or is it more a case of him
    'telling you not to'?  There's a big difference -- and it's an
    important one.  I believe that you both need to come to an
    understanding on this.  I believe that you should control what goes
    into your body and that he needs to recognise this.
    
    o Consensus.  Others have spoken of this, but you've both got to want
    it.  Second thoughts are inevitable. So's [some] panic.  So you've both
    got to be 'totally present' in the decision to have or not have
    children.
    
    o Planning.  I am, personally, not a fan of planned pregnancies.  My
    husband and I came to a point where we would both _welcome_ children
    and then just left it to Fate.  This worked best for us.  All three of
    my pregnancies came as 'surprises' but were not 'accidents' -- if that
    makes any sense.  This fatalistic method takes a lot of the panic out
    of the decision, but requires an _explicit_ understanding on the part of
    the parties involved -- an explicit commitment to love, to nurture, and
    to provide for a child whenever it happens.  Has your husband made this
    explicit commitment?  If so, then the decision is yours, but you need
    to keep doing sanity checks with him to let him know where you stand.
    
    o Timing.  This is determined by your priorities.  If you are
    _any_thing like me, then these shift pretty rapidly.  This is something
    only you can decide upon [and your husband].  But I will second the
    comment that waiting for the right time, after all predetermined
    milestones have been passed, predisposes one to eternal
    postponement.  I don't know what your priorities are, but if Freedom is
    #1 for either of you now is _not_ the time.  Children don't stand in
    the way of _most_ goals, but children tend to extend the time required to
    accomplish them.
    
    As you said, you can probably wrok it all out for yourself over time;
    but here are my comments
    
    Regards,
      Annie
    

    Re: a 100% mutual decision
    
    Ain't no such thing in this case.  You can decide to have sex.  You can
    decide to use birth control.  But, you can't decide to have children as
    if it were a yes/no decision.  There is *always* some element of fate
    involved unless you choose abstinence or sterilization.  It amazes me,
    now that we have such effective methods of birth control, how some
    people think and behave as though it was entirely under their control.
    
    -Mary

>    Re: a 100% mutual decision
>    
>    Ain't no such thing in this case.  You can decide to have sex.  You can
>    decide to use birth control.  But, you can't decide to have children as
>    if it were a yes/no decision.  There is *always* some element of fate
>    involved unless you choose abstinence or sterilization.  It amazes me,
>    now that we have such effective methods of birth control, how some
>    people think and behave as though it was entirely under their control.
    
    Mary,

	I disagree, you can decide to have children as a yes/no decision.

	You can have 100% no:

	There is contraception, there is sterilisation, there is abortion, and 
	if all that fails or is not available, there is adoption.
	
	100% yes:

	The 100% yes will depend on any pysical problems you may have, and/or 
	willingness to accept other peoples children.

	100% yes/no decision.

	Heather

Posted for the author of the base note.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi,

First I'd like to thank you all for your opinions.  They have been
insightful as well as comforting.  I still don't know what
I'm going to do, but I do feel a little better just hearing other
women's stories.

The reason I am writing this response is because I felt it was 
clearly necessary to defend my husband after reading #.8.  I reread
my note and I guess I wasn't clear on my husband's position.  He
doesn't want me to put chemicals in my body (he's seen what effect the
pill has had on me).  That's his opinion, not his "command".  I,
on more than one occasion, have made my own opinion known to him when
he was considering medical options for various illnesses.  I would
be hurt and insulted if he did not consult me on these type of issues.
I would also be hurt and insulted if he did not want to be included in my 
medical choices.  We are a team, and as a team, we look out for each
other on many different levels from physical to mental.  His ultimate 
decision is that BC is MY decision, but that doesn't mean he'll stop
vocalizing his feelings.

Someone also mentioned that I should get my husband to make a commitment
one way or the other: either he wants children or he doesn't.  I appreciate 
the thought.  It looks good on paper.  But how can I badger my husband
into making a decision that I can't even make?  We both
just don't know for all of the aforementioned reasons.  

Having been given the control to make these decisions is nice, but it
also factors in a lot of X's to cloud the options.  


Anway, thanks again, everyone!

Anon 

    re: .14
    
    You're right, Heather.  I was just looking at it from a narrower
    perspective.  The thing is couples who have made a mutual decision
    not to have children sometimes do get pregnant.  And not all women
    feel comfortable with having an abortion when that happens.
    
    -Mary

	Mary, I know there are people who do not agree with abortion, however, 
	there is also adoption.

	There are many couples who want children and can't have them.

	Giving a child you have not planned for, and do not want, to people 
	who really want a child, and would bring it up in a loving home, is a
	definate option.

	If you decide to have and keep the child, then either you do want it, 
	or you are being very selfish.

	Heather

    Please take any abortion discussion to the abortion topic, and follow
    the guidelines in the basenote of that topic when doing so.
    
    -Jody
    

    re .17, not everyone's conscience would allow them to put their child
    up for adoption.  I get very sick of having adoption presented as an
    alternative to abortion.
    
    Lorna
    

    re .19:, not everyone's conscience would allow them to put their child
    up for abortion.  I get very sick of having abortion presented as an
    alternative to adoption.
    
    Marge

    PLEASE TAKE THE ABORTION DISCUSSION TO THE ABORTION TOPIC.
    
    *ahem*
    
    -Jody
    

	I was saying there were always choices.

	I was talking of adoption as an alternative to keeping a child after
	failed birth-control.
	    
	What would be your alternative if you did not want children? 
	Fostering?  or government care?  or?


	Heather

    re .22, I was just pointing out that, although it may seem to you that
    there are always choices, there are not always choices for everyone, in
    every situation.  It's true that abortion and adoption are both choices
    as an alternative to keeping a child after failed birth-control, but
    they are not necessarily choices for *everyone* and they probably
    wouldn't be for me.  
    
    Lorna
    

	They are choices for everyone, however, you may decide that you do not
	want to take some choices, that's why they are choices, not "must dos".

	My over-riding choice would be to ensure I would not keep a child that
	I did not want, and would be sure to take my grievances out on.
	I would still have the choice, I would not choose this option.

	Heather.

    Getting a little more back to the topic at hand.  I'm not sure that
    every child is either totally wanted or not wanted.  I've talked to 
    some people who had unplanned pregnancies and kept the child, but
    dealt with some ambiguous feelings.
    
    When I was pregnant I know I had second thoughts, like what have I
    done!  It was both scary and wonderful.  I had a miscarriage and had
    mixed feelings about that, too.  I looked at it as a disappointment, but
    also a reprieve from the impending changes a child would bring to my
    life.  Has anyone else had such ambiguous feelings about a pregnancy?
    
    -Mary

    re.25
    
    ye-e-e-sss... you could say I've had ambivalent feelings about all of
    my pregnancies. And their outcomes.
    
    The first one came _very_ quickly.  Sooner than we had anticipated. 
    While not unwelcome, there were some inconveniences.  When our daughter
    was born, I was ecstatic, scared witless, proud, jittery ... and when
    she died six weeks laters I was devastated, howling-at-the-moon angry
    ... and a very small part of me stopped panicking.
    
    The second pregnancy was for 'all the wrong reasons' ... almost
    immediate, very _very_ welcome, my touchstone, my own re-birth in a
    sense.  When it ended in a rather senseless and useless accident 5
    weeks prior to my due date, I was devastated, obessed, crushed ... but
    a small part of me acknowledged that my reasons had _not_ been healthy.
    
    The third came after more than ten years.  It was a _complete_ shock,
    although not accidental [ie carelessness or contraceptive failure].  My
    feelings upon coming to this realisation were real muddle -- our
    life, particularly mine, would undergo some _serious_ restructuring.
    [Rick had some slack in his schedule, I had none].  Yet, it was a happy
    thing -- welcome, when we were [relatively] financially secure, it was
    a _good_ time in many ways. The ending of this pregnancy, dying in the
    womb, is a sadness to me.  Yet the child was an un-asked-for blessing
    and I full and fulfilling life.
    
      Annie

    Thankyou Annie
    
    BJ

    
    
    Anon-
    
    Since you're asking for experiences and general feedback.
    
    we 'waited' for the right time.. then decided almost overnight that it
    was 'the right time'. In fact it felt a *lot* like standing on the
    eddge of a pool you *know* has freezing cold water in it, that you've
    always had the ccommensense to stay away from, and suddenly deciding
    to jump in.  What finally decided it for me was the experience of a
    friend.  She, like me, was going back and forth, and then found out
    she and her husband *couldn't* concieve.  What she said to me was...
    "it was all right while I thought I had a choice, but now... until now,
    I hadn't realized how much I wanted a child of my own."  So maybe a way
    to test your desire for this step is to imagine if the choice had been
    taken away. Would it affect your life plan?
    
    If you decide to jump... keep a journal of your feelings... I did, and
    it was very illuminating and instructive.  I cried for about a week, in
    fear, and didn't tell my husband for about another week... (ALthough I
    found out later he knew almost immediately, as I was acting like a
    complete dweenie)... In my first journal entry, there's a phrase about
    feeling like a supporting character from the movie "Aliens".
    
    AS the months progressed, my feelings changed, to smugness by the end
    of the time, and the sure knowledge that I was carrying the future of
    the world within me.... yeah, yeah,... I tend to have grandiose delusions,
    ok? 
    
    I realized that the fear of the unknown was my greatest hangup. I've
    done at least a few of the things I hope to have written on my epitath,
    and at the moment, not being in complete control as I'm not, since this
    little person can order both my waking and sleeping life to a
    measurable extent, is probably a good, character building exercise for 
    this overcontrolled person! 
    
    Ahem.. moving back to the point I wished to make.. for *me*, having a
    child has been the most focussing experience I have ever had. Time *is*
    shorter, money flows less freely.  But for me, the result has been a
    realization of my priorities, my values, my beliefs, and my history. 
    it's a responsibility that will never end, yet it's also a joy that, to
    date, only gets better and better.
    
    Point being. I think it's a great step, and can be a great path for
    personal growth.    

    'a joy that gets better and better'
    
    Raising four children was not always a joy...especially through teh
    teenage years.
    
    But having four adult sons and daughters has been great!
    
    My theory is that the desire to have children is instinctive for many
    of us.  Although I love everyone of my children if I had it to do over
    I would recognize my instinctive desires and spend a great deal of time
    analyzing my ability to parent in the given situation.
    
    Although I feel that an accidental pregnancy sometimes creates
    excellent parents, parenting is most successful when it is done with
    thought and preparation.