Conference turris::womannotes-v3

656.0. "Moral dilemnas inherent in groups" by SX4GTO::OLSON (Doug Olson, ISVG West, UCS1-4) Fri Jan 18 1991 18:02

    Group dynamics.  Group think.  

    I see many discussions revolve around perceptions of what a group of
    people are doing, and, again, perceptions of why they are doing it.
    Today's example (654.30) was protesters against the war.  Yesterday's
    was "the womannotes community" and our sins against the non-PC.  I'm
    sure tomorrow will see yet another projection of monolithism, of a
    grouping tendency, of an accusation that because a readily-identifiable
    group of people act similarly, they must all think alike, act alike,
    and similarly, be wrong, alike.  I objected strenuously to one aspect
    of this way of thinking in the alienation topic of womannotes-v2, 864.*.

    So I'm trying to wrap words around this concept; to what extent is one
    responsible for the actions of a group with which one is associated?
    To what extent are outsiders justified in recognizing that your group,
    by its very existence, shields the actions of individuals who may be
    using the group for their own ends?

    Several conflicting ideas impair my ability to even discuss this
    properly; one, zealous outsiders seize any excuse to discredit a group;
    we as feminists know the pain of that!  two, sneaky insiders may be
    amoral, and using the group to their own ends; as a non-socialist
    feminist, I'm reminded of the disagreements Les Slater and I had over
    the proper role socialism could play in advancing the rights of women.
    three, what kind of a movement is it, if we feel the need to police the
    motives and activities of our associates?  Yet, four, how can we hold
    our heads up and be morally proud of our action if we know that others
    are taking advantage of us to commit and hide their culpability for
    immoral acts?

    These concerns, unaddressed, lead to a paralysis of will, chronic
    fence-siiting, inability to judge.  When actions are needed, (in my
    case, in support of feminism) such paralysis is poisonous.  What ideas
    do people have to deal with these concerns?  I'm hoping to hear from
    all sides of current and past issues; to hear of book recommendations
    from writers who've dealt with these issues; to hear of personal
    solutions, personal ways to resolve these inner doubts.  I specifically
    *not* looking to start yet another topic on the protesters against the
    war; so if you use that 'group' for an example, please remember to frame
    it against the larger issue.  Thanks, all.

    DougO
    

    Wow!  Talk about deep!
    
    Doug,
    
    For me, personally, what I try to do is interact with people
    based on my personal experiences.  Generally this works, but
    I am not above sterotyping, either.  I'm not trying to justify
    why I occasionally stereotype, but I think when it happens, to
    myself,, it's not implicit that all people in that group *do/
    are/believe* whatever.  Is it right that I even do this?  No,
    but on the other hand, if my experiences with all members I've
    had contact with of a specific group display a certain behavior,
    I certainly feel justified in my conclusions.  This probably isn'T
    clear or what you are looking for, but I'm trying.  Perhaps I'll
    take another stab at this later when I''m feeling more coherant.
    
    Christine
    
    PS-  I do not think groups per se should bear the brunt of negative
    actions caused by few and not supported by the masses.  Rather than
    risk the unity of the group by secretly searching out subversives,
    the group itself should try to stop such actions if there is time,
    or immediately dissociate themselves from the acts in question.  People
    will still believe what they want to, regardless of disclaimers.  I'd
    forget about trying to educate those people...people that don't want
    to be educated cannot be and the more persistant one is (despite the
    best of intentions), the more some people will feel pushed in the 
    opposite direction.  Start with those who are willing to at least
    listen and go from there.
    

What does being part of a group mean anyway and why it is necessary to
even identify as part of a group?  

Isn't this identification with groups the root cause of oppression,
discrimination, rascism, sexism, and all the rest?

How you one identify as part of a group without bu definition
splitting things into in the group and not in the group?

Is it possible to live without such discinctions?  How many have
actually tried it instead of just thinking or assuming that such as
thing is not possible?

One group oppressed anyone with one ideology and another rises up and
throws that one overboard and creates another ideology and meanwhile
very few people questions this whole process and find ways to
rationilize this suffering and violence against each other and against
nature?

Are we really interested in ending it?  How many will do the work to
really look at in in oneself and put an end to it?  The outer world is
just a reflection of our inner state and inner confusion.

john