Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I have this discussion fairly often with people, particularly when I
    speak out about roles of men and women on TV, in movies, etc.  I'll say
    "wow, that's sexist", or even discussing children's toys and the
    "wonders of the new Barbie" (she drives, she marries, she does hair - I
    have yet to see "Chemical Engineer Barbie" or somesuch so not ALL the
    options for women are represented yet).  
    
    Sometimes the response I get is a conversation which supports me and we
    concur.  Sometimes I get a response of a gentle nod and silence. 
    Sometimes I get a blank look.  Sometimes they laugh and say I'm taking
    everything too seriously.  Or conversely, I hear that I'm focusing on
    the little things rather than the big things and it'll get me nowhere.
    
    But it's *out there* folks.  It's *everywhere*.  I can't turn a blind
    eye to it anymore, and I ran out of cheeks to turn long ago.  
    
    It's like going with the flow when you know it's wrong.  It's like the
    "stoning" scene in Monty Python's "The Life of Brian" - it's right
    because everyone else is doing it, and if you don't enjoy it you're
    missing a really good time.  It's like not being able to laugh at
    Andrew Dice Clay.  It's like boycotting certain stores or fruits or
    stocks because of their practices or politics.  
    
    You do what you think is right, I'll do what I think is right.  I have
    an adequate sense of humor, it's just not equipped to run heavy-treaded
    and groupthink-laden over all the daily examples of injustice, sexism,
    religio-centric, etc, that I run into.
    
    Don't tell me what to laugh at, and I won't tell you what to laugh at.
    
    -Jody

    >don't tell me what to laugh at, and I won't tell you what to laugh at.
    
    (DISCLAIMER:  this is not a reflection on Jody's words, but
    the comment itself "spoke" to me)
    
    I think this is one of the problems that we run into in this
    file, especially in emotional/heated dialogue.  I sometimes
    feel that if I have an opinion that doesnt concur with the
    majority of a string, that the responses to my comment are
    such that I *should* change my mind.  When I offer comments,
    my goal is generally food for thought and my intention is 
    not to change everybody's or anybody's mind.  I sometimes 
    feel that those opposed to my views aren't respecting what
    I have said and won't be happy until I "see the light" and
    agree.  It may be just a matter of perception, but this is
    a very real feeling I have experienced here.  Perhaps the
    perception works both ways and those who oppose my views feel
    that I'm out to change them?
    
    Christine

    Suzanne,
    
    Didn\t mean to focus on this file.  It does happen everywhere.
    I'm just saying that those are my feelings and thought the
    comment belonged in this file.  I just hate it when people 
    insist that I "prove" my thoughts because the implication
    is that if I can't support my views with hard indisputable
    facts, they are therefore invalid.  I realize there are some
    people who need to debate more that others.  I'm just not 
    one of them unless I feel attacked.
    
    Christine

    
    
    Christine..
    
    I fully agree with you.  When I place my thoughts and opinions into
    this conference (and others), 99% of the time it's to express something
    I feel and what to share.....the "food for thought" concept.  
    
    I have no desire to change anyone's mind, I just have a desire,
    sometimes to say what I'm feeling.
    
    However, I get the feeling that when I write things sometimes, people
    feel that I am challenging them and I am disputing their beliefs.  From
    my viewpoint, that is never my intention.
    
    I know that when someone writes an alternate viewpoint to something
    that I write, and I go nonlinear about it, it usually becomes very clear
    to me later that it's MY lack of self-assuredness in my belief that
    caused my non-linear attitude.  I feel challenged and I don't enjoy
    feeling doubtful about anything. ("Damnit, I KNOW what I FEEL, and I'm
    RIGHT!")
    
    It's so much easier to blame someone else for the things I should be
    taking responsibility for myself.
    
    
    kath

    I think everybody has some subject where they have no sense of
    humor, can't have a sense of humor, don't _want_ a sense of humor,
    and are so because they have been _made_ sensitive to the subject.
    
    Pity we're not all sensitive to the same subjects in the same
    degree. Awkward when you inadvertently push someone's button.

    Not commenting on the particular topics in the basenote, but I have
    come to realize that when I hear "you're being too sensitive", the
    other person is distancing themselves from me and is not really
    participating in the conversation - for whatever reason. Realizing
    this, and realizing I can't change someone else, I have to decide if I
    want to continue the conversation (either at present, or for the
    future), and sometimes the relationship.
    
    My $.02
    
    Lynn

    I think if only people didn't say it to me in such a condescending tone
    I might not mind as much.  It's like "you're a wimp" or "you're weak"
    or "geez, where's your asbestos plating?  lighten up, will ya?".  Maybe
    that's my projection of my own fears about being sensitive onto them,
    but it *feels* judgmental.  And as in .6, it also feels like my whole
    attitude about that subject is being dismissed as they build that
    judgmental wall between us.
    
    -Jody
    

    re .7, I agree.  "You're too senstive" always seems to be said in the
    tone of someone pointing out a fault.  It definitely feels judgmental. 
    I think people accuse others of being too sensitive when they have no
    interest in dealing with the situation.
    
    Lorna
    

    "You're too sensitive" *is* a judgemental statement.  The person saying
    it is saying that they have evaluated me, and I do not have the
    "proper" amount of sensitivity.  My level of sensitivity is defective.
    
    	PAH!
    
    I say that person's level of sensitivity is defective: s/he doesn't
    have *enough*!
    
    E Grace

    If some of these comments have been aimed at me - I'm sorry, I didn't
    want to appear judgemental.
    Maybe I should be in a note for people who are too insensitive.
    I'll start this one differently:
    FWIW, IMHO, my �0.02's worth, etc.
    I don't want to put people down for getting upset by certain
    comments/criticisms.  However, I feel that it saves an individual a lot
    of stress if they can ignore/laugh at comments which are plainly
    ridiculous, eg all men who wear earrings must be ginger beers or
    something.
    
    Treating it as 'water off a ducks back' can save your internal turmoil,
    and will not provide the instigator with any ammunition to use against
    you and other "minorities".
    
    Ken

    Ah Ken, but if one does nothing in the face of such comments, then it
    is automatically assumed that said comments stand unchallenged and are
    therefore acceptable in polite society.  Also, I will not make jokes
    about my situation, that would appear that I don't take myself
    seriously or have any respect for myself.
    
    BTW, the stress already exists when one encounters those who utter their
    "comments/criticisms" in a derogatory manner.
    
    sue

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not putting people down who get upset at these
    things. What I'm saying (not very successfully) is that that is usually
    the reaction which was intended.
    
    If people want to vent their anger, that's fine by me - but I don't
    think they should get themselves so cut up about it, that the other
    person feels they have achieved something.
    
    If someone said to me "all Paddies are stupid ba$tard$", I wouldn't
    personally get upset and angry. However, I *do* appreciate that some
    people would, and respect their right to do so.
    Personally, I would say "I'm surprised you have the mental capability
    to structure a sentence, let alone formulate an opinion".
    Hopefully, it would end up with them a lot more angry than myself.
    
    Ken

    Personally,i wear short sleeve t-shirts even when it`s snowing,`cos i`m
    right hard,me.
    
    Also,i drink 60 pints and smoke 80 fags a day.
    
    My girlfriend`s got big baps `n` all.
    
    So don`t call me sensitive.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    While I agree 100% that the comment "You're too sensitive" is
    judgemental, there is an angle to this issue that often gets
    overlooked.
    
    "Being sensitive" sometimes becomes a subtle form of control in a
    relationship and the "over-sensitive" person refuses to recognize
    it as such.  As in "I feel so jealous when you talk to so-and-so"
    and "I get angry when you do such-and-such", which really translate
    to mean "Don't talk to so-and-so" and "Don't do such-and-such" and
    "if you don't do what I want my feelings are gonna be hurt and its
    all your fault."  Ever dealt with a person whose feelings were so
    fragile, you felt like you were walking on eggshells and had totally
    lost the freedom to be yourself?  It stinks.
    
    Mary

    It'd seem condescending for someone to trivialize my feelings by
    telling me that what I'm feeling isn't right. I get ticked at that.
    
    Kate

All of the points about control, invalidation of feeling, and so on are
well taken, but on the other hand you do run into people of all sexes, 
orientations, backgrounds, and beliefs who are too sensitive.  You say 
good morning and they look at you funny and wonder what you're trying 
to get out of them; you ask if they saw the new movie that everybody's 
talking about and they get upset because the movie was _War_of_the_Roses_
and they think you're accusing them of being on the verge of divorce. 
(True story, by the way.)

I guess I don't have any right to tell them they're too sensitive, but
sometimes I just want to scream, "Not everybody is watching every move 
you make!!! We can't follow you into your home and watch your home life!
I wouldn't want to anyway!  All I want is a mildly pleasant interaction 
while we're waiting for coffee!"

--bonnie

    
    
    
    Several answers seem to indicate a decline and fall of the sense of
    humour, IMHO.
    
                     <<< Note 646.15 by USCTR2::DONOVAN >>>
                        -< Sure is a Hot Button For Me >-

>    It'd seem condescending for someone to trivialize my feelings by
>    telling me that what I'm feeling isn't right. I get ticked at that.
    
>    Kate 
    
    Do you really mean to say your feelings are always right?? *I* know
    that my feelings certainly aren't right always, but maybe that's
    because I'm a 
    
    MAN!!
    
    Bo ;-)                                                   

    re .16
    
    I love it...
    

    re .14, the only times I've felt like I was walking on eggshells and
    had lost the freedom to be myself, has been in relationships with men
    who had problem tempers.  I was afraid to say or do something that
    would set off their tempers and make them start yelling at me.  But, I
    never thought of this as being a sensitivity problem on *their* part! 
    Maybe on mine?  
    
    Lorna
    

    when an intrinsic part of my being is being held up to ridicule, I
    don't consider a response on my part to be looked at as "too
    sensitive".
    
    sue

    What's neither-here-nor-there to one person is life-and-death
    to another. Telling someone they're "too sensitive" or "overreacting"
    is certainly a judgement, and often an attempt at control.
    
    How one reacts is really no-one else's business, so long as the
    reaction doesn't result in broken bones... 
    
    --DE
    

    A line from the net that I like (paraphrased)
    
    	If you cannot laugh at yourself then others will do it for you,
    	which is much less pleasant.
    
    	-- Charles (who finds himself an endless source of amusement)

    Charles, I absolutely agree. But then I think taking one's self
    too seriously is somewhat different than being "too sensitive".
    
    Finding absurdity in one's self and the world is one way to stay sane.
    
    --DE
    

    re: .19
    
    I guess it all depends how you look at it, Lorna.  I mean didn't you
    feel like the anger was manipulating you to conform to his desires?
    To me getting angry a lot is being over sensitive.  The emotions
    of feeling hurt, angry, and afraid are often all present at once, but
    may not all be externally visible in the persons's actions.
    
    Mary

    
    

                     <<< Note 646.15 by USCTR2::DONOVAN >>>
                        -< Sure is a Hot Button For Me >-
>
>>   It'd seem condescending for someone to trivialize my feelings by
>>   telling me that what I'm feeling isn't right. I get ticked at that.
>>  
>>   Kate 
>   
>   Do you really mean to say your feelings are always right?? *I* know
>   that my feelings certainly aren't right always, but maybe that's
>   because I'm a 
>   
>   MAN!!
    
    Bo ;-)                                                   
    
    
    Hi Bo,
    
    It's Ok in my book to question my facts or my beliefs but please, not
    my feelings. Do you understand my point?
    
    K ate

Re: .23

> But then I think taking one's self too seriously is somewhat different than
> being "too sensitive".

Hmm. That's interesting. Taking yourself too seriously is certainly one way of
being too sensitive, but you're right - it isn't the only way. It seemed to me
that the previous notes had focused on that aspect though.

What does that say about those people who don't take themselves too seriously,
but are (or are called) "too sensitive"?

	-- Charles

    Slate me if you want, ignore me if you want, moderate me if you want.
    
    This note is not intended to cause upset or distress.  I would just
    like to know if anyone has got any comments on why people have been
    getting rather angry over the last few days.
    
    It appears to me that gays/lesbians/bi's perhaps react more strongly to
    prejudice than other groups.  Whether this is good or bad is probably
    irrelevant, but am I right and if so, is there a reason for it?
    As some people who have bothered to read any of my notes may have seen
    - I am half Irish and half English, and do not get upset when people
    are prejudiced against me on those grounds.
    I have been to places on the Continent where the English are despised
    and have been called an Englischer scweinhund (sp?) by Germans in
    Spain.  I have heard many an anti-Irish comment in this country.
    
    IMO "Paddies" is a colloquial name for Irishmen, as "poofs" is for
    homosexuals.  I would not personally use either term. In my
    experience there seems to be more outrage against
    ignorance/prejudice/stereotypes as witnessed by sexual minorities, than
    by racial, religious, cultural and others.
    
    This is JMHO but am I right and if so why?
    
    Ken
    

    Ken
    
    I'm Irish/English/Scots/Welsh....
    
    and I don't take offense at 'put down's' to any of those nationalities
    or to ones about being an American.
    
    I think that sexual minorities, like people of color, have only
    recently started standing up for their rights as people, and telling
    people that commonly used expressions are offensive to them. Prejudice
    against someone for being Irish or English or American doesn't normally
    classify them as 'sub normal' or something to be despised in main
    stream culture. However, there are many people, today who still have
    such feelings about sexual minorities or people of color.
    
    Bonnie

    Ken,

    >>It appears to me that gays/lesbians/bi's perhaps react more strongly to
    >>prejudice than other groups.  Whether this is good or bad is probably
    >>irrelevant, but am I right and if so, is there a reason for it?
    
Yes, I think that there is a reason for it.

    >>As some people who have bothered to read any of my notes may have seen
    >>- I am half Irish and half English, and do not get upset when people
    >>are prejudiced against me on those grounds.
    
However, if you are living your life as a heterosexual person, you have the 
opportunity to have your spouse viewed as your valid and legal partner (if 
you choose to marry).  Once you have chosen to marry, society gives you 
certain status and privileges.  Digital, as your employer gives you and 
your family certain benefits.  All these types of legal, societal and 
company sponsored benefits are denied to gay/lesbian/bisexual persons.  
Gay/lesbian/bisexuals can't choose to be legally married.  Lack of choice 
makes a difference.

This is the first little difference that may cause some extra sensitivity.
It is very difficult and hurtful to have an entire society not be willing 
to recognize our relationships, our lives, our hopes and dreams.  When my 
older sister got married (to a man) my parents shelled out a ton of money 
on a big wedding (sit down dinner for 250 people) plus my parents gave them 
several thousand dollars as a 'gift' to get them started in life.  I 
recently had a ceremony of commitment with my partner.  My parents weren't 
in attendance, nor did they even know the event had happened.  I'm tired of 
these constant inequities, of not being seen, of being afraid of being seen 
because of the consequences that it might have on my life...like even 
coming out in a public notes file forum could impact my career at DEC.

Then layer on things like, gays/lesbians/bisexuals regularly get harassed, 
beaten up and discriminated against if we do things like, hold hands in 
public, or kiss in public, or attempt to put some legal structures around 
the life that we have built to protect our households, life insurance 
payments, personal property, etc., from "well-meaning" families who feel 
that they are entitled to our estates once we're gone at the expense of our 
significant others.  When a man or woman shows us a picture of their 
heterosexual spouse and children, for example, that is called sharing.  
When we show someone a picture of our same-gender significant other, that is 
called being blatant.  

The other day I was at a gas station and the gas station attendant made 
some comment about a not too swift thing that a fellow did in another car 
when he pulled up to the gas pump.  The attendant made the comment that the 
driver of the car must be Polish.  Well, I'm French and Polish.  Did his 
comment bother me?  No, it rolled right off my back.  If the attendant had 
called the guy a 'faggot' would I have gotten upset?  Yes.  I think that 
the level of sensitivity has a lot to do with the appalling lack of civil 
rights and human rights that gay/lesbian/bisexual people experience all over 
the world.

I have been fighting for my rights for a long time now and feel that little 
progress has been made.  It is discouraging.  I'm tired and weary and have 
no sense of humor when it comes to attacks and insults at 
gay/lesbian/bisexual people.   Maybe someday when I have the *same* civil 
and human rights as heterosexual people I'll no longer be so sensitive 
about such comments.

Laura
 

    Ken,
    
    One reason that they react more strongly is that such negative
    comments remind them that their lives are in danger.
    
    Surprised?
    
    Then you should read the news more carefully.  Men and women are
    beaten up, raped, and murdered -- by complete strangers -- for
    the "crime" of being perceived as gay.
    
    Would you be happy to be called Irish if you knew that it increased
    your chances of being put in hospital?  Would you even consider
    wearing even one earring if you thought it would get your head
    bashed in?
    
    Perhaps you wish to reply, But we didn't refer to any individual.
    The answer to that is:  What you have done is called `re�nforcing
    behavior'.  It enables others to see themselves as justified in
    their "gay bashing", because *you* have (as they see it) endorsed
    their attitudes and behavior.
    
    Don't do that.
    
    						Ann B.

    Ann, 
    I'm sorry that you think I'm reinforcing anti-gay attitudes.  The
    intent of my note was to find out if other people feel that sexual
    minorities defend themselves more vehemently than others.  I received a
    couple of interesting replies which I found informative.
    
>>    Would you be happy to be called Irish if you knew that it increased
>>    your chances of being put in hospital?  Would you even consider
>>    wearing even one earring if you thought it would get your head
>>    bashed in?
    
    I appreciate the analogy you're drawing.  I think I've risked being put
    in hospital many times, because of being Irish/English/white/on my own
    whilst walking home.
    One thing I have never felt threatened for, however, is wearing
    earrings.
    
    Ken

    Ken,
    
    I gather that your INTENT was NOT to reinforce anti-gay attitudes.
    Unfortunately, intent and actuality can be different things.  I
    think Some People tend to forget that.
    
    "I meant well" is a pretty pitiful excuse in the face of a resultant
    disaster.  (This is why the warning, "Practical jokes aren't." exists,
    and why the pious line, "The road to Hell is paved with good intentions."
    continues to remain in vogue.)
    
    BTW, you actually didn't answer my question about being *labelled*
    as Irish.  You only commented (whether you realized it or not) that
    you believed a readily observed trait (your skin color) increased
    your risk in certain areas.
    
    					Ann B.

    I think Laura's response hit it on the nose.
    
    While some people may dislike you for being (Irish, English,
    Whathaveyou) you are still basically their equal in the eyes of the
    law, the eyes of society, etc.
    
    Also LesBiGays are in the unique position of growing up in a subculture
    that despises them.  Racial minorities, while they may be despised for
    their race by those around them, at least have parents who are of the
    same minority.  Thus their subculture, at the most basic level (their
    family) is supportive.  Most LesBiGays grow up in families that are at
    best tolerant and at worst downright hateful.  For a young LesBiGay
    there is little of the solidarity that is available for, say, black
    youth.  (I can't comment on discrimination against English, so I will
    instead use examples applicable to the US.)  It isn't surprising that
    they might be extra sensitive.
    
    Also, I think you might *percieve* them as being more sensitive because
    you (generic) are less sensitive.  In recent years, people in general
    have become very sensitive to racial issues.  It is considered in the
    poorest of taste to make a racially prejudiced remark, even if you
    really feel that way.  No such social restrictions against statements
    against homosexuals exist.  The recent homophobic basenote would simply
    never have been written about, say, Hispanics.  While someone might
    hate hispanics, to say so would bring down the world against them, so
    they learn early on to keep such statements to themselves.  Statements
    against gays are *supported* by society as a whole (=wn=
    notwithstanding.)
    
    therefore, since you more often encounter blatant prejudice against
    LesBiGays, you will correspondinly more often hear LesBiGays and their
    supporters getting upset at such incidences.
    
    D!

    Um, uh, I'm not so sure that I'd agree.
    
    I don't think "lesbigays" are more sensitive to negative comments than
    blacks or native Americans or Jews, who have all had, and CONTINUE to
    receive a fair share of abuse for their very existence.
    
    But in THIS file, there has been an unusual amount of outreach to the
    Lesbian community, and therefore, there are a lot of out Lesbians here.
    Far more than the number of "out" black people. There's me and Karen
    Wharton (who rarely notes here) and nobody else makes a point to even
    bring it up! I don't know of any native Americans in the file. The
    people who are Jewish don't constantly bring it up, they just don't get
    all into the scores of "ohboyitsChristmasIcan'twaittobewithmyfamily-
    orspendtimewithmylovedonesandwishforpeaceonearthonceayear" notes.
    In fact, color can be rather transparent in notes files...
    
    So, a lot of what you're seeing is strength in numbers and unity, and a
    conscious decision to speak out against gay-bashing because one does
    not stand alone when doing so. I think if there was only one lesbian
    here, and no one was bending over backwards to relate to her
    difference, she would not defend herself so loudly, unless that was the
    nature of her personality.
    
    The thing about lesbigays is that they can't blend in in notes files
    because their differences come out whenever they use pronouns. The only
    other option is silence, and understandably, some of them are sick of
    it. But I can ASSURE you, they aren't more sensitive. They're just
    being more vocal.

    ren, I never thought of that, but you are right!
    
    In most areas, racial prejudice differs from prejudice against
    LesBiGays because LesBiGay people have the option of hiding their
    orientation, while black people, hispanic people, et al do not.
    (In this area Jews and other religious minorities are similar to
    LesBiGays.)
    
    But in notes the situation is reversed!  
    
    This has the makings of a great sociology dissertation.
    
    D!
    
    [PS: Before anyone from either "camp" flames me, let me point out that
    I didn't say one kind of prejudice was worse or more important or
    whatever, than the other, just different.  The abilities of gays to be
    "in the closet" has it's good points [avoidance of getting beaten up]
    and it's bad points [pressure from "well-intentioned" others to stay in
    the closet.]