Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    incoming

    
    
    Re.         <<< Note 637.0 by SUBURB::ABSOLOMT "I love Dessie" >>>
                            -< EARRINGS ON "MEN"! >-

    >Are men that wear earrings ginger beer or what? 
    
    I beg your pardon?
    
    I assume that you are using rhyming slang, as in "ginger beer" =
    "queer" = gay/homosexual.
    
    Queer, bent and many of the other phrases used to describe people
    who have same-sex lovers are offensive to many gay/bisexual people,
    including myself.
    
    If you want to ask if a man wearing an earring indicates that
    he's homosexual, try asking that directly. Or asking that directly
    in this conference.
    
    >I feel that earring are for women. Same goes for make-up. 
    
    Fine. You're entitled to your opinion. Some people feel otherwise -
    should I assume that you can accept that?
    
    >If you're going to wear earrings and all that, you migt as well wear a
    >dress and cal yourself Nancy.
    
    And why not? People can call themselves whatever they like ;-)
    And wear what they like, come to that.
    Including earrings.
    
    My view is that a man wearing an earring tells me nothing specific
    these days about his sexual orientation. They often look really
    good though.
    
    'gail
    
    
    
    
    'gail

    

    I THINK THAT BLOKES THAT DRESS UP AS WOMEN ARE PERVERTS. I ALSO think
    that it shoudnt be encouraged. Kids copy adults, and I've seen loads of
    kids get a good slapping for dressing up like girls.
    
    Ted

    Ah! the SUBURBiacs discover WOMANOTES, and to think their eyes
    only opened a few days ago!  Remember these guys are permanently
    inflicted with themselves....If you get too close, it may be
    contagious.  Noone who has actually seen or touched them has
    returned to talk about it.  Come to think of it, 'guys' may be
    a wild bit of assumption.  I mean, how do you 'gender' a note?
    There may not be a 'gender' (as we know it) where they were whelped.
    
    8^)		mwr
    

    
    How do we define women's clothing in this context? Scots wear the kilt
    as part of formal wear (they also carry a couple of knives). Greeks
    also have a kilt. A kilt/skirt/sarong is common (and very comfortable)
    male wear in much of the oriental tropical zone.
    
    As for earings: well pirates wore them didn't they?
    
    seriously: this note is also in mennotes. But hasn't this topic been
    done to death before (3-4 years back?)
    
    The only difference between men wearing earings and women doing so is
    that many women wear clip on earings, whereas men appear to go for
    smaller studs requiring piercing. In either case it appears to be a
    form of adornment that you either like or don't: I can't see that it
    affects gender matters one iota (taking the converse does the base note
    imply that women who don't wear earrings are masculine?)
    
    /. Ian .\

    As a feeling, I feel that the basenote is probably there to see what
    kind of reaction will be generated.
    
    As a lesbian, I feel devalued by this note.  Maybe one should think
    about what Valuing Differences really means?
    
    sue

    All I know is that person-to-person violence feels much more
    "perverted" to me than whether a man wears an earring or not.
    
    E Grace

    
    I think we used to have a policy for notes like .3....
    but I could be wrong.
    

    here is my reaction to the suggestion that earrings on men are
    NECESSARILY an indication of sexual orientation (I am discounting
    the "perverted" label as both too ridiculous and too boring for comment):
    
    mmmppphhhhappppfffffuuuuuuiiihahahahahahaha!
    
    sorry!  it got away from me!
    
    each of us is of course entitled to an opinion, and to wear or not wear
    earrings, jeans, hats, watches, swords, etc.  Whether or not to carry
    a pocketknife is also an individual choice.
    
    frankly this note seems to me to be a instance of deliberate
    bomb-tossing, and I for one will not reply to further absurdities...
    
    Sara

        The SUBURBanites are known to be 'wind-up' artists, among other
        things.  Maggie  -  remember  when  W'notes  first  opened  for
        business, there was a similar note from 'Davina' K.? Same idea.
        
        Earrings on men - pirates and sailors traditionally wore a gold
        earring for the simple reason that if they were lost at sea and
        subsequently washed ashore, then there would be enough value in
        the  earring to give them a sanctified burial,  rather  than  a
        pauper's grave in unhallowed ground.
        

    Meet the Duke of Avon:
    
    Average height, average weight.  When he dresses for the evening,
    he powders his face, puts on one (black, silk) beauty patch, puts
    on a brocade waistcoat, silk unmentionables and jacket with long,
    flaring skirt, lace at wrists and throat, a jewel on his breast
    and jeweled rings on his fingers.  (He is a lazy man.  Not only
    does he refuse to wear a wig, he rarely even powders his hair.)
    He carries a painted fan, and wears a smallsword.
    
    Even his friends call him `Satanas'.
    
    Is this the sort of man you'd think of as a pervert?  How about,
    a sophisticated member of Parisian society in the late eighteenth
    century?
    
    						Ann B.

    see also:
    
    Mennotes
    30 - A ring in your ear?
    
    -Jody
    

    We're queer, we're here, get used to it.  Value that difference.
    
    (At least at Digital, what one does on one's own time is one's private
    business.  But in work related situations, such as this notesfile, the
    Valuing Differences philosophy is in force.)
    
    sue_who_is_tired_of_this_attitude IMHO

    I've seen men wear skirts - heck I've seen men wear lingerie.  And
    truth be told, I was quirked (did a double take) but neither shocked
    nor offended.  In addition, I think men are actually the peacocks
    of the species (I feel the 13th centure had it right when men wore the
    frippery and finery and rich fabrics, etc....).
    
    For some reason I feel more comfortable seeing men with one earring
    than with two, and I feel more comfortable when women wear matching
    earrings than nonmatching ones.  But as I see more alternative ways to
    wear earrings, I'm growing to like the self-expression people achieve
    with them.
    
    More power to 'em!
    
    -Jody
    

    
    Wow, I think we're seeing a lot of valuing differences in action right
    here in this string.  I can remember a time when in the face of
    homophobic comments only very out gays/bis/lesbians would speak up
    (not talking just about notes, but in general) and it wasn't that
    long ago when even we were silent, but here we have men and women --
    gay, lesbian, bi, and straight all standing up and voicing their
    discomfort with insulting words.  
    
    Thanks for giving me something to feel hopeful about on this very
    scary, US/Iraq showdown day... 
    
    Justine
    
    
    About the topic of earrings on men --
    
    It was after I noticed how cool a small gold stud looked on a man
    that I started wearing earrings again, and I always feel spiffiest when
    my earrings match my tie-bar.  I'm glad that fashion rules have
    expanded lately to allow men and women to choose the clothes and
    accessories they like best.
    

Oooh yes, We're here, we're queer, get used to it!

What a great chant.

And Justine's right, many of the responses to this note give me hope too!

Kathy

Is it just me, or does anyone else feel this note worthy of "blowing away?"

Aren't there some kind of limits to devaluing others that override an
individual's expressing an "opinion?"

Barb

    
    
    re 15
    
    Ted,
    
    What is a "jessie"??
    
    You may feel that men are being brainwashed by women.  That is your
    opinion, but don't you think you are being a bit hard on men??
    
    Also, define for us if you will your definition of wimps, and while
    you are at it, what constitutes "most" in your view?
    
    Just curious,
    Michele

    Come on, kids!  You know!  
    
    WIMP:  n.  1; a real man. 2; any man for whom woman battering is not a
    	       sport.
    
    E Grace   

    
    FWIW a Jessie is archaic British slang for an effeminate man.
       
    It is also an inaccurate spelling of Jesse (a biblical reference)
    
    /. Ian .\

    Why blow away a note/view that you don't respect? There are notes that
    quote men as being predominately sexist, bigoted & concieted in this
    notefile which are accepted with vigour, merely because they run along
    the line of thought of the majority of noters in this conference.
    
    Tony.

    
    Ted might care to provide the usual thumb nail sketch of himself in the
    sign in note - its always so much easier to "talk" to a fellow noter if
    you know a little about them, rather than trying to guess from their
    notes...
    
    As for blowing the topic away - well I guess that as long as it doesn't
    violate the conference policies (up to the mods on that) and doesn't
    get any more macho, I for one shan't be asking for a deletion.
    
    /. Ian .\

    How about this one.....
    
    You have to forgive anyone who notes from node SUBURB:: because they
    spent too much time in pubs listening to the Clash when they were
    younger to be held responsible for their actions today.
    
    
    Lisa
    

I don't believe that anyone can say anything in these type forums.  How about
if I start a string filled with racial slurs?  Is it o.k. as long as I stay
away from "certain words?"  What if I even say them - how's that make all you
feel out there?

kelly,

Serious question - do you want to know what "makes these people tick" enough to
have folks sitting at their desks feeling like h*ll?  

I can see ANYONE having ANY discussion outside OUR workplace.  I cannot see
allowing devaluing, slurs just because they are used as "EXAMPLE" in
someone's "OPINION" in OUR workspace.  Personally, I stay away from these types
of discussion even outside DEC, because I find more often than not the
"discussion" is an excuse for venting bigotry, and I haven't the will or the
time to encourage that.

Barb

p.s.  I also find some of the replies extrememly heartening and encouraging.
They're just not enough for me to want to open the door for the bigotry. 

    
    The positive response to the questions raised in this string have made
    us comods feel pretty comfortable leaving this string alone.  But
    we won't allow insults to be traded back and forth.  If there are any
    more nasty comments, I will delete this entire string.
    
    If you're not sure if your reply constitutes a "nasty comment," I will
    be glad to talk with you about that.
    
    Justine -- Womannotes Comoderator

    
    One Halloween, back when I still liked to play with boys, I stalked 
    and captured a delightful creature who was dressed up as Adam Ant.
    Yummy, yummy.  Later when I saw him sans makeup, my enthrallment 
    dissipated.  Makeup has its privileges.
    
    We're here, we're queer, get used to it!
    
    Carla
    

    
    Re: .29
    
    I notice that Ted's name is now Tony ... is he just getting mixed up or
    could there be two like him???
    
    Sam
    

    IMHO, I find men with earrings especially attractive ( almost as
    attractive as women with French accents). 
    
    
    
    
    
    

    Are we supposed to believe that a "real" man is one who can't
    remember his own name, or doesn't want to use it, and somehow
    can't bring himself to use precise, or even up-to-date terminology,
    and who is made uncomfortable by behavior that doesn't follow
    the English (not British) middle-class norm?
    
    						Ann B.

    go away Lisa & stay in Soapbox. Your blowing my cover.
    
    
    Big Vern.

    I'm Heterosexual, male, I don't wear an earring or a dress. I'll never
    wear an earring or a dress. I see nothing wrong with men who want to
    wear earrings or dresses. It doesn't hurt anyone and gives them a form
    of selfexpression that, if they didn't have, might lead them to some
    really abberant behavior. Gays, Crossdressers, and people who wish to
    make fashion statements by wearing a piece of jewelry that has
    traditionally been associated with women and pirates are not evil or
    sick. They are freespirits who are not afraid to let people know what
    their chosen lifestyle is. I applaud people with this kind of courage
    in today's homophobic society and pray for a day when such vital souls
    can walk in public and not run the risk of ridicule, personal injury,
    or even death. 
    
    The people who are the real perverts are the rapists and child
    molesters. It is a poor society when such evil is allowed to walk the
    streets and just get a slap on the wrist in terms of legal punishment,
    while harmless individuals that don't conform to society's "rules of
    behavior" are not given the right to express themselves in public.
    
    I'll end this here because if I don't my anger at the base note wfill
    keep me going for hours, and I do have to work.
    
    Phil

    I think earrings on heterosexual males are very, very sexy. 
    Especially when accompanied by long, long hair.
    
    --bonnie

    
    	ABSOLOMT! the utter nerve of your .0...
    	when you sport one yourself!
    
    	tsk tsk tsk....

    
    
    I have two earrings -- both in the left ear -- today they are very
    small faux pearls (of the highest fake quality!).  Why do I wear them
    -- I like to let people know that as a man I refuse to adhere to the
    stereotypical BS of what a "real man" is.  I am gay, but I'm also all
    man -- trust me!
    
    	Greg

    <<< Note 637.13 by CSS::FRASER "But I don't have an accent; you do!" >>>

        The SUBURBanites are known to be 'wind-up' artists, among other
        things.  Maggie  -  remember  when  W'notes  first  opened  for
        business, there was a similar note from 'Davina' K.? Same idea.
        
        Earrings on men - pirates and sailors traditionally wore a gold
        earring for the simple reason that if they were lost at sea and
        subsequently washed ashore, then there would be enough value in
        the  earring to give them a sanctified burial,  rather  than  a
        pauper's grave in unhallowed ground.
        

    I think the author of .0 is basically just yanking a few chains in
    here.  By the looks of things he has done a pretty fair job of it.
    

> Looks as if we're all suckers, gang.  According to .43, ELF, and
> FINDNODE, ::ABSALOMT is a male named Tony Absalom, working in Reading,
> who wears earrings.  And he's just wound the lot of us up pretty
> thoroughly.

	Gee, I assumed that Tony was just testing the waters of public
	opinion.  Obviously, he feels that men wearing dresses and calling
	themselves by traditionally female names is no big deal, no more
	so than men wearing earrings (as he apparently does himself) or 
	make-up, but wanted to check it with others before he went out 
	tonight in dress and pseudonym.

	    Sharon

    Did Joe Strummer ever have an earring?
    
    Lisa

    
    
    SUBURBs......what a lot, I swear.
    
    When you see something from one of them, take a deep breath and ignore
    it.
    
    I've been getting really good practice at taking the opposite meanings
    from all of their notes........rather interesting!   
    
    
    Of course, in my estimation, an earring and long hair would improve all
    the male SUBURB Chain Yanking Society's appearance!
    
    kat

    Well, I still think earrings on men are sexy . . .
    
    --bonnie

    re:chain yanking
    
    Gee if you had a pierced ear AND nose AND sufficient chain.....nah, I
    won't go into it.
    
    Lisa

    
    
    Lisa...you hold them down....I'll get the needle.
    
    It would be my pleasure, madam!  ;-)
    
    
    kat

    They had this thing on MTV once which was this 5 minute blurb about
    body piercing.  These people had their lips pierced, belly buttons,
    sexual organs, one guy had a skewer through his nose.......
    
    Anyway, then they went on to this tattooing practice where they draw
    the picture, then take a scalpel to the outline, then swab the cuts
    with something to irritate them so that the scars will stand out and
    the picture can be seen......
    
    Of course they had the disclaimer
    
    DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME.
    
    Lisa

        re .45,
        
        Gee -d ... I never noticed the "wears earrings" field in
        ELF.  Thanks for pointing it out. :-)
        
        Dan

    .56
    
    If you are seriously interested in the practice of piercing, send me
    mail. I don't feel like talking about it here though.
    
    	-- Charles
    
    P.S. Tony - I have an earring, and I think men who wear them are cute.
    Send me your picture?

    
    Yo Suckers, I do indeed wear THREE earrings. One in my right ear & two
    in my left.
    
    I love winding these people up. You critisise people for their beliefs,
    yet call FOUL when they oppose yours.
    
    Hey, and anyone saying that earrings are poofy is a big Jesse.
    
    BTW, a real man is someone who respects himself, treats his fellow
    humans with the same respect, and is prepared to stand up and be
    counted, even if he is the only one to stand up. I cringe when women
    follow men around. And I also cringe when men follow women around and
    rant about them being so much more sensitive, useful etc etc. 
    Stop catagorising other people and worry about No.1.
    
    I gotcha, dini? dini?   Wa! wa wa wa!!!!!!
    
    Tony.

    I object to the anti-SUBURB prejudice which seems to be prevalent in
    this note.
    Eve if Tony had been serious about his views on men wearing earrings, I
    would argue with his opinion because I wear two.
    However, it is a worrying aspect of this conference that people can
    stereotype all SUBURBians as wind-up artists, just because we are from
    a different node.
    
    I am very upset.
    
    Ken

        Yaaaaaaaaaawn !    Another $h�+ topic on earrings.  I noticed
        it got zapped  in MENNOTES.  Must be the author couldn't take
        the heat eh ?
        
        Tony.  .  .only  TWO in your left ear ?  Kinda' livin' in the
        past aren't you ?  
        
        Matt

    I seem to remember the more than 2 you wear *did* appeal to some women.
    
    Charles

re; .61

>    Yo Suckers, I do indeed wear THREE earrings. One in my right ear & two
>    in my left.
 
    I don't appreciate being called a sucker.
       
>    I love winding these people up. You critisise people for their beliefs,
>    yet call FOUL when they oppose yours.
 
    I'm glad you're having fun.
           
>    BTW, a real man is someone who respects himself, treats his fellow
>    humans with the same respect, and is prepared to stand up and be
>    counted, even if he is the only one to stand up. I cringe when women
>    follow men around. And I also cringe when men follow women around and
>    rant about them being so much more sensitive, useful etc etc. 
 
    I think a real man is someone who also respects others.  Getting a
    "rise" out of the conference is not as fun for me as it is for you. 
    Can you value that difference?  Even if I'm the only one to stand up
    and say I disagree with what you did and it felt like a slap in the
    face based on what I value in this conference?  I cringe when people
    follow others, but I cringe even more when they seem to be baiting
    them.
       
>    I gotcha, dini? dini?   Wa! wa wa wa!!!!!!
    
    Yup.  You did.  Are you pleased?
    
    -Jody
    
    

    
    
    >    However, it is a worrying aspect of this conference that people
    >can stereotype all SUBURBians as wind-up artists, just because we are
    >from a different node
    
    Sorry, Ken.  It's a running joke.......didn't mean to offend ya! 
    
    
    kath_who_hopes_to_never_be_caught_saying_a_negative_stereotype_and
    	being_serious_about_it
    

    You`ve really upset poor Ken i`m afraid Kath.
    
    He does his best to be a nice,rational,open minded individual, and all
    he gets is abuse. He really is rather sensitive you know.
    
    Whats more,he supports Queen Park Rangers football club - and they`ve
    lost 12 games out of the last 15. 
    
    Personally i don`t wear earings,but i have got well long hair.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    
    Joe,
    
    You should tell the poor misguided soul that using capitals to make a
    statement, especially a contentious one, is not "doing his best to be
    nice..." - it is shouting, a loutish mode of behaviour not normally
    used in polite society.
    
    /. Ian .\

    
    I'm not comfortable with generalizations about folks from a certain
    node (god, I really can't think of a much more arbitrary criterion for
    ridicule than that), but neither am I comfortable with the name-calling
    that's been going on here.  What caught my eye in particular are the
    derogatory names that have been used to describe gay men and the
    off-hand, insensitive remarks about cross dressers.  It makes me angry
    when people speak that way, and I think it speaks volumes to how far we
    have to go in combatting both institutionalized and internalized
    homophobia.  I'm pleased with how the community has responded to this
    challenge (whether the challenge was made in "jest" or not), but it
    still makes me angry to read words like those that have been written
    here, and it makes me angry to think that some people think it's funny
    to play with other peoples' emotions, especially on an issue as charged 
    as homophobia.  When it's safe for my brothers and me to walk the
    streets wearing whatever feels comfortable to us and carrying ourselves
    in a way that feels true for us, maybe then... I'll laugh with you.
    
    Justine -- writing as an individual noter in this file
                                     

    Have a couple of your buddie's hold you down while another one
    shakes near-frozen cans of Coke and sprays your ear for the 
    numbing effect,  meanwhile the parachute rigger has a INDUSTRIAL
    SEWING MACHINE NEEDLE IN A PAIR OF PLIERS and he RAMS it thru
    your lobe. This is what happened to me.  Gawd, I just cannot remember
    when I had that kind of fun.  Join the navy, it's more than a 
    Adventure...
    
    

    Calm down Justine - you wear whatever you want.
    
    Can`t we talk about football instead?
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    .0 was not only in poor taste, but might lead to some personel action
    if someone wanted to make an issue of it. It is insulting, demeaning,
    and makes a mockery of valuing differences. I am disgusted by this
    behavior. THis is worse then ignorance. An ignorant person can be
    educated and hopefully make up hir own mind. This was plain putrid.
    
    Phil

    
    
    Joe Strummer> Personally i don`t wear earrings, but i have got well 
    >             long hair.
    
    Well, no one said you were perfect.
    
    And you still owe me that brew.
    
    k

    Re .75
    Isn't this being taken out of context slightly?
    I would have thought this forum is a good place to have ignorant
    comments thrown in, so that everyone can practice responding to them.
    
    This has been an ignorant comment - would anyone like to respond?
    
    Ken

    
    > This has been an ignorant comment - would anyone like to respond?
    
    No thanks.
    
    k

    Well i would just like to say that i found the last note from 'K' not
    only hairist but ignorant and childish. Oh dear,i`m so upset.
    
    I remember once when i was in a supermarket and this old lady called
    me "a long haired person" Now,i suppose you think that`s funny - but
    let me blah,blah,drone,drone.
    
    Yeah! I`d love to buy you a drink. How about 7.30 down the Railway
    Tavern at 7.30 tomorrow night? Plenty of planes from Massachussets.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    
    
    I admit it...I prejudice against men with long hair.  (I think they are
    quite lovely....).  But, with no earrings...sorry, it's a no go.
    
    What time did you say you'd pick me up?
    
    kat
    
    

    
    Joe,
    
    not all of us are in Massachussetts - and if you go offering free beer,
    this is one geordie who'll be around to take you up on it...
    
    /. Ian .\

    Justine and Phil,
    
    Not trying to make trouble here, but I do have a serious question.
    Would this topic have been more palatable to you had it been 
    phrased such as "Are all men who wear earrings homosexuals, I just
    don't understand.  I've always thought that earrings are for women.
    Same goes for make-up.  What are men trying to show or prove when
    they wear earrings/make-up/dresses"?  I do realize this is a valuing
    differences conference.  The reason I asked is that we all know that
    in a perfect world, we wouldn't have to worry about prejudices and
    biases.  There are people who will not like gay folks, men who wear
    earrings, black people, asian people, the list just goes on.  Now,
    not saying it's right or wrong to feel this way, I guess playing
    Devil's Advocate here, are these people still entitled to their own
    opinions/thoughts even though they may be drastically aside from 
    the mainstream?  If I had to guess, I think Tony may have been 
    trying to show people that sometimes we take ourselves too seriously.
    Everybody is so up on the "I am a person and my opinions have worth
    and should be recognized" and that's great.  I think however, that 
    in a not sublte way, Tony may have been trying to point out that 
    this is a good attitude, but is used selectively.  What I mean to
    say is that everyone seems to be entitled to their own opinion as
    long as it's not offensive to the majority, but if it is offensive,
    the person has no right to hold that opinion.  I hope some of this
    is making sense.  We don't have to agree with something that some of
    us may find insulting, but can we tell them they have not right to
    express the thoughts?  
    
    Christine

    I tell you what Kat - i`ll borrow my mums "stick on" earrings,and i`ll
    pick you up about 7.00 in my personal jet. We can have a few pints,
    then i`ll get you back before midnight. 
    
    Is that ok?
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    re .83, Although there is merit to what you're saying, I don't think
    Tony had anything quite so philosophical in mind when he entered .0.  I
    think he just felt like making fun of womannotes.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Christine,
    
    I feel ok hearing about what makes people uncomfortable about people
    who are different from them (whatever the difference).  My problem with
    the notes here has been with the language and with what I see as a lack
    of respect for the feelings of those of us who are offended by the
    homophobia expressed here (whether it was meant seriously or not).  I'm
    glad you asked the question, and I'm speaking only for myself (you
    addressed the question to Phil and me).  I remember in another string
    about coming out  as a lesbian, a woman asked a question that displayed
    some discomfort (as I saw it) with the idea of lesbianism, but she
    asked the question in a respectful way, and it didn't make me (or any
    of the other women who responded to her) angry.  
    
    I think there is room here for us to talk about our differences and
    even talk about our discomfort, fear, whatever about those differences,
    but we can only do it if we show a basic level of respect for each
    other's feelings.  I have not felt respected by many of the replies
    here, and that has been the source of my anger.
    
    Justine
           

    Re .83
    Very well put Christine.
    
    People are going to come up against ignorance all the time. Whilst this
    conference may be a shelter from that, it may be useful to defend
    against the kind of points Tony made. Hence, defensive aguments can be
    built up individually and collectively, which then may be used when
    confronting these attitudes in the "outside world".
    
    Ken 

    Kelly, Lorna, Justine,
    
    Thank you for your responses.  Of course I cannot speak for
    Tony, that's how I read the whole string.  I do agree about
    the respect issue...you can disagree with me all you want 
    about anything, but if you don't respect me while doing so,
    it gets my Irish up.
    
    Christine

    Well said,Christine.
    
    Anyway - who cares?
    
    You are what you are - and if someone doesn`t like it,then so what.
    There really is no need to have a heart attack. No disrepect Justine,
    but WHY do you get so worked up? There is prejudice everywhere - it`s 
    a part of life.
    
    Personally,i`d rather play football.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    I hope I don't offend anyone here, but this is how I viewed this whole
    string....
    
    I recognized the author of the basenote instantly, as he and several of
    his friends (who happen to all note from node SUBURB::) have posted
    entries in a number of conferences.  From having dealt with these
    noters before I had the feeling that some sort of joke was going on
    right from the start, hence I let the comment bounce off.  
    
    I'm really not sure whether it is really worth the effort to get bent
    out of shape about this whole thing.  I realize that some people were
    highly offended by the basenote, but I'm not sure whether further
    argument about the issue is going to produce positive results.
    
    Then again, as I've said, I've seen the basenoter and friends in action 
    before.....
    
    Lisa

�    I would have thought this forum is a good place to have ignorant
�    comments thrown in, so that everyone can practice responding to them.
    
    Most of us don't need practice responding to ignorant comments.  It's
    not like there's such a shortage of 'em.
    
    It's like tossing someone in the deep end, then adding another glass of
    water to the pool to help them learn to swim. 
    
    Ray

    You`re just jealous Lisa `cos i asked Kat for a drink in the Railway
    Tavern and not you. 
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    
    I guess I just don't have a sense of humor. 
    I care "too much", too. 
    And I take everything much too seriously.
    
    CQ

    .92
>>    Most of us don't need practice responding to ignorant comments.  It's
>>    not like there's such a shortage of 'em.
    
    Ray, my point was that ignorance shouldn't provoke anger. I don't think
    it's a bad thing to know how to dismiss an ignorant comment with
    sarcasm, or turning it round to confuse the instigator.  Anger just
    fuels their ability to spout more comments of the same ilk.
    
    Ken

    How dare you presume i`m a boy.
    
    My name is short for Joesephine.
    
    Joesephine Strummer.
    

    Actually i don`t know what gender i am.
    
    I am in fact a rather intelligent elephant.(Though not intelligent 
    enough to know if i`m a female elephant or a male elephant).
    
    Joe "elephant" Strummer.
    

    re .83 Certainly anyone is entitled to hir own thoughts and oppinions.
    They are even entitled to express them. What they have to expect in a
    valuing differences forum is if they insist on "bashing" a person
    because of that person's form of expression, then they are going to
    have a lot of people come down on them and come down hard. If they
    meant it as a form of humor, then I personally feel that that is even
    worse then actually believing in something and expressing it. It's not
    even devil's advocate. It's plain stupid and wrong. Some of us may take
    ourselves to seriously in here, although I think I have proven myself
    different from that, but some of these topics are serious. We are
    talking danger to life and limb of some of the people who have
    alternative lifestyles and those of us who support them in their
    choices to live their lives as they want to. If someone wants to come
    in and ask "Are all men who where dresses homosexuals?", and they are
    sincere in their questioning, and can cite information received that
    caused them to wonder about it, then that is different. That is asking
    an honest question and expecting an honest reply. It is seeking truth
    and that is what we are all here for. To, I hope, receive the truth and
    increase our personal knowledge and ask and answer questions. To
    receive aid in formulating our own thoughts and oppinions.
    
    Phil

    .0 and .3 represent an attack on some portion of the population,
    a very offensive one.

    What disturbed me even more is when that attack was launched as
    joke.
    
    Allison

    
    
    
    What Lisa said.  
    
    In all seriousness, it's an interesting lesson for all of us to learn
    in this.....many games are not just for "fun", they are for
    instruction, for guidance, for decision making, for self-examination.
    
    While the SUBURBians are quite a ways out in the ozone, I sincerely DO
    believe they have given this conference a real chance at learning from
    our own actions.  If we cannot evaluate ourselves and our responses to
    a ridiculous proposition (and if we cannot be fair and just in those 
    responses, but that's another story), then what sort of real GROWTH are
    we even attempting to achieve?
    
    In all humour......I don't drink with elephants.
    
    k

    	The next time you feel insulted, Kath, try to remember that the
    	person was only doing it as a way to offer you instruction,
    	guidance, for decision making, and for self-examination.
    
    	In other words, they were doing you a wonderful favor.
    

    	All kidding aside, let's ignore these guys.  
    
    	It's just another attack on the file.
    

    
    
    re: .104
    
    Suzanne.
    
    I feel that rubbish like that isn't even worth answering.
    
    However, with every note you write, I still learn a very valuable
    lession.
    
    kathy

re: .90

>    Anyway - who cares?
 
    I do, for one.
       
>    You are what you are - and if someone doesn`t like it,then so what.
>    There really is no need to have a heart attack. No disrepect Justine,
>    but WHY do you get so worked up? There is prejudice everywhere - it`s 
>    a part of life.
    
    If someone doesn't like it, that's fine.  If they rub my nose in it,
    that's not fine.  If they put forth their opinion in a form that
    insults me or mocks me, that's not fine.  There is prejudice everywhere
    - but that neither means that people have to support it, nor propagate
    it.  I choose to try to make a difference.  I choose to speak my heart. 
    I choose to care about noters here who also speak their hearts and
    share their experiences and live and learn and grow here. 
    
    -Jody
    
 

    
    	RE: .106  Kath
    
    	Well, I'm surprised - I can't imagine why your suggestion would
    	be just fine for those who felt insulted here, but not Ok for 
    	when you feel insulted.
    
    	Didn't you see how bothered people were by those notes?  What's
    	the point of painting the experience as if it should be taken as
    	"instruction" and "guidance"?
    

    
    
    re.83
    
    
    Everyone is entitled to their own opinion about anything. However,
    you have to understand that "mean spirited" (for lack of a better
    phrase) opinions are not going to be tolerated by people who "value
    differences." 
    
    For example, I think the vast majority of people would find it
    unacceptable to hit someone over the head with a baseball bat if there
    was something about them that they didn't like (skin color, sex, sexual
    orientation, whatever). Of course, the person who wants to do the
    hitting is entitled to his opinion that the person deserves to be hit.
    If the person is hit, however, then the person doing the hitting should
    expect some retribution. It's the same thing when verbally criticizing
    someone for a innately personal component of their being. In a sense
    when this happens, the person bearing the criticism may feel "hit over
    the head with a bat" in a emotional sense. Many people don't feel that 
    this type of "emotional abuse" is acceptable and may take some action
    against it, just as a police officer would come to the aid of someone
    being assualted with a bat. 
    
    >>    What I mean to say is that everyone seems to be entitled to their 
    >>    own opinion as long as it's not offensive to the majority, but if 
    >>    it is offensive, the person has no right to hold that opinion.  
    
    Everyone has the right to their own opinion. However, if that opinion
    is a devaluing, deragatroy opinion, then it is not acceptable,
    especially when such an opinion is 1) "personal" in nature 2) directed 
    towards an individual for something that causes harm to no one else 
    (ie wearing an earring).
    
    I don't think that the valuing differences mindset panders to the 
    majority opinion. Just the opposite in many instances, I'm afraid.
    The point of valuing differences is not to keep peace with the
    majority. Rather it is being accepting of attitudes/ideas/lifestyles that
    may be different from your own as long as those attitudes/ideas/lifestyles 
    are not malicious in nature.
    
    Let me use an example from the note you entered:
    
    >>  I've always thought that earrings are for women.
    >>  Same goes for make-up.  What are men trying to show or prove when
    >>  they wear earrings/make-up/dresses"?  
    
    This is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, what
    difference should it make to you if someone else believes differently ?
    If someone criticized a man for wearing an earring, then I would 
    feel no compunction when criticizing the attitude of the criticizer.
    
    The point is that when a man wears an earring, there is no harm
    done. When someone criticizes or devalues the man for wearing 
    the earring, there is harm done. The former is perfectly acceptable,
    the later is not acceptable to me.
    
    I hope you don't find note condescending in nature. 
    
    These ideas seems so obvious to me - how come so many people can't 
    understand/accept them !?! 
    
    Bob

    Bob,
    
    Well, I do find it condescending, but that's ok.  I understand
    valuing differences.  I don't understand why it's ok if gourp
    A's opinions are acceptable and group B's aren't, why group B
    gets flack for not accepting group A's opinions.  Its ok for
    one group to devalue, but not for the other.  That's how I 
    see a lot of issues and they aren't always as blatent as the
    statements rendered in the basenote.  In many cases, they 
    are very subtle.
    
    As for why men where earrings.  I really don't care about it,
    I just rephrased the basenote as an example of style/response
    dynamics and wasnt exploring that question, so I do understand
    your response on that score, and did so even before you spelled
    it out.
    
    Christine

    re: .83
    
    Christine,
    
    Although you didn't address your comments to me, I feel compelled to
    answer anyway.
    
    Please re-read my .19 reply which says in essence:  I don't care what
    ones's opinions are in their private life.  At Digital, we do have the
    Valuing Differences philosophy, which is supported by the Executive
    Committee, which runs this corporation.  If people wish to make
    comments which devalue other people's differences, they can make
    comments in such a way as to not devalue other people's belief systems
    for the sake of learning.
    
    The basenote was deliberately injected into this file without regard
    for Digital's valuing differences policy.  Thank you Phil, for pointing
    out that Personnel could be involved in action with regard to the
    valuing differences policy if one so chose to pursue the matter.
    
    I hold many personal beliefs that may or may not value difference. 
    However, here at work or in work related situations, I conduct myself
    in accordance with the policies which Digital has established to manage
    a diverse workforce.
    
    As a lesbian who is totally out in both my personal and professional
    life, I am not amused, educated, or look at such instances of blatant
    disregard for Digital policy as contributing to my personal growth.  I
    am deeply offended.  If one cannot make constructive contributions to a
    conversation, one can remain silent, IMHO.
    
    Another comment, I have had conversations/arguments about my difference
    many times outside of DEC.  I do not need comments from this notesfile
    to bolster my position, I have had enough "practice".
    
    sue_who_is_still_not_amused_by_this_string

    
                   
    Re .110 (Christine Rainey)
    >> I understand valuing differences.  I don't understand why it's ok 
    >> if gourp A's opinions are acceptable and group B's aren't, why 
    >> group B gets flack for not accepting group A's opinions.  Its ok for
    >> one group to devalue, but not for the other.  
       
    Christine, could you say more about what you mean by "flack" and
    "devalue" in this case.  For example, do you think I was giving the
    basenoter "flack" when I said how angry his words made me feel?  I'm
    asking this question, because I think you may have touched on what I
    see as one of the great misunderstandings/miscommunications in this
    file.  I often hear folks complain that those whom they see as
    "Politically Correct" do not "value their difference" or that they 
    *harrass* and "devalue" them for not subscribing to this "party line."  
    I mean, if someone uses a phrase that insults me, and I respond by
    insulting him, then I'd say we're about equally responsible for the 
    continuation of the fight, but if in response to such an insult, I say, 
    "that makes me angry" or "that hurts my feelings" am I harrassing or 
    "devaluing" him?
    
    I don't think expressing anger = devaluing.
    
    Justine

Typical wrong side of the Pennines opinion... What was it you wrote?


		Opinionated Lancastrian

    It appears to me, that people who are taking offence against the
    "ignorant comments", are harming themselves more than the person who
    initially made the comment.  I'm not suggesting you club someone to
    death when they make a prejudiced comment, but look on it as their
    problem.
    I'm sure people in the "outside world" who would make this sort of
    comment, would only be too delighted with the reaction it has provoked.
    
    I am half Irish and put up with an English prejudice, that the Irish
    are backward drunkards.  I either make a joke about it being more
    difficult to walk backwards when you're drunk ( I didn't say it was a
    *funny* joke) or I tell them to sod off before I punch their faces in.
    Which is also a joke.  
    
    Sort of.
    
    
    Ken

    
    I've been reading most of this and I have to bring up two points
    
    1) The Clash were great
    2) The Railway Tavern is crap
    
    Paul

    Re:0 and all his replies.....
    
    Kerry Faulkner lives.............
    
    REK

    
    Well, Ken, my response to the anti-gay comments I've seen in this
    string is different from the response you've described to the
    anti-Irish things you hear in England.  I have used similar tactics to
    the ones you've described for responding to prejudice (ethnic,
    anti-gay, sexist comments), but I've found that I personally feel
    better about myself when I can speak up and say that my feelings are
    hurt or that something makes me uncomfortable, angry.  I'm glad that 
    you've found something that works for you, but I've chosen a different 
    response.
    
    
    ps As I reread your note, I wondered if your (jokingly) threatening to punch
    someone in the nose wasn't a lot like my saying that I'm angry... but
    as a woman my threatening to punch someone might not be taken very
    seriously (besides the fact that it's not really my style).
    
   Justine                                                 

    
    Speaking of the Pennines, have any of you ever hiked the whole of the
    Pennine Way?  I had a little fantasy a few years back that I'd do this
    with my love -- alas, it wasn't to be, but I still might like to do it
    by myself or with someone else.
    
    CQ

I've walked Only part of the way, but I remembered my passport!

    My 10 year old son had his ear pierced about a year ago.  Granted, he
    isn't a "man" if you determine man by age, but he's quite a guy.  Since
    so far he hasn't demonstrated much of a sexual orientation (thank
    heaven, his mom's not ready for that yet, regardless of what it might
    be), I think it's safe to assume that his earring is simply an
    expression of himself.  Most of the time he wears a gold cross in his
    ear which was a gift from my oldest brother.  I have three brothers; it
    so happens all of them are heterosexual; two of them have pierced ears. 
    One owns a contracting business, the other is a carpenter.  Both
    consider themselves very macho guys...
    
    I'm 38 and I have ALWAYS been turned on by guys with a pierced
    ear...especially those little diamond STUDS.
    
    (On the other hand, I'm most put off by the "SUITS" of the world...)
    
    Just my .02 worth!!

    Hey!  hold it right there!
    	(ok, now hold it over _there_)
    
    Cut out those comments about the suits! my HUSBAND wears a suit (to
    work, anyhow).  I've always said, under that three-piece suit beats the
    heart of a... oops, here he comes, I can't say.

>    Ah! the SUBURBiacs discover WOMANOTES, and to think their eyes
>    only opened a few days ago!  

	This is untrue.

>    Remember these guys are permanently
>    inflicted with themselves....If you get too close, it may be
>    contagious.  Noone who has actually seen or touched them has
>    returned to talk about it.  Come to think of it, 'guys' may be
>    a wild bit of assumption.  I mean, how do you 'gender' a note?
>    There may not be a 'gender' (as we know it) where they were whelped.
    
 
	Well, I think of myself as a girel rather than a guy - but can all 700
	people with accounts on SUBURB be classed in the same ilk, let alone
	the same gender?

	Heather

>        The SUBURBanites are known to be 'wind-up' artists, among other
>        things.  


	This is also untrue, can 700 people all be wind-up artists, this does
	include some of our board of management.


	Heather

>    How about this one.....
>    
>    You have to forgive anyone who notes from node SUBURB:: because they
>    spent too much time in pubs listening to the Clash when they were
>    younger to be held responsible for their actions today.
    
 
	This is untrue.

	In my youth, when I first started gong to pubs, the Beatles and Rolling
	Stones were the flavour of the day.

	Whats this Clash stuff anyway?

	However, it's nice to know you will all forgive me for anything I may
	say and do!


	Heather

    
>    SUBURBs......what a lot, I swear.
 
	I didn't realise swearinbg was allowed, it's nice to know it is.
   
>    When you see something from one of them, take a deep breath and ignore
>    it.
 

	Really, it's also nice to know what you think.

   
>    I've been getting really good practice at taking the opposite meanings
>    from all of their notes........rather interesting!   
  

	Feel free, I've noticed that this has happened to some of my notes. 
	I hadn't realised it was because of  the cluster name tho'


	Heather

    
>    >    However, it is a worrying aspect of this conference that people
>    >can stereotype all SUBURBians as wind-up artists, just because we are
>    >from a different node
>    
>    Sorry, Ken.  It's a running joke.......didn't mean to offend ya! 
 

	A running joke - it's nice to know, is that's what's been happening to 
	my notes over the last few weeks then?

	Heather   

    RE: last note "It`s a running joke........."
    
    Personally,i would call someone who does drugs,gets banned,then comes
    back and loses a race a running joke.
    
    Ho,ho - aren`t i funny.(No,probably not).
    
    Joe Strummer(from the band who bought you "Guns of Brixton".
    
    

    
    
    RE: Heather
    
    > A running joke - it's nice to know, is that's what's been happening
    >to my notes over the last few weeks then?
    
    Well, I made the comment you highlighted, but if you remember, I'm one
    of the people behind you 100% in this conference.
    
    I was making an attempt to put some humour into this note (because it
    seemed it needed it).  
    
    You're absolutely correct, not all SUBURBians are wind-up
    artists...just a couple of them!  (So, give me the dirt on these guys,
    will ya?  Tony promised me he would shave my initials in his head).
    
    In a couple other conferences, a few of the guys on SUBURB are
    (fondly?) called the "SUBURBians."  I probably was wrong to bring that
    name into this conference where people had no knowledge of the nickname
    and who it was referring to.
    
    Sorry!  (FWIW, I certainly don't treat your notes that way!)
    
    kath

    I was in the Railway Tavern at 7.30 last night. Where were you,kath?
    
    Just `cos there is a war going on,that isn`t an excuse for not turning
    up. 
    
    And as for "giving me the dirt on the SUBURBians" let me assure you
    that i have a bath every day,thankyou very much.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    re:.128
    
    Wow, an offer to shave your initials in his head.
    
    All I got was a marriage proposal.  
    
    Lisa

    A wind-up artist?
    
    I picture this little plastic guy wearing a beret, a smock and a
    goatee, carrying a paintbrush and pallete, with a little motor inside
    in little knob-sticking out of his back...
    
    D!

    
    
    >I was in the Railway Tavern at 7.30 last night. Where were you,kath?
    
    You stood me up!  I was waiting all night for you to pick me up!
    
    Hrmph!
    
    see if *I* ever drink with you again!
    
    k

    Winding people up is the easy part - taking someone who's gotten wound
    up and getting them to change their minds - now THAT's a challenge...
    
    Joe, Ken, and Heather are amateurs.
    
    	-- Charles

    
    	Hello all.
    
    	Well, first I'll say that I haven't read all 133 replies before
    	 me, but I will. (at 1200 baud, it takes a while)  Having said
    	 that, I still would like to state my comments on this.
    
    	I got my left ear pierced a little over a year ago, and I'm very
    	 glad I did.  It's something I've wanted to do for a long time, 
    	 but never had the guts to actually do.  The reactions have been 
    	 pretty interesting, to say the least.  I usually wear a diamond
    	 stud, but I also have a couple of dangling crosses that I like.
    	 Nothing too far-out, just the basics.
    
    	Most of my friends took to it right away, and really liked it.  I
    	 had a little more trouble with my family, especially my dad, but
    	 they've all gotten over it.  I'm in Field Service, and I wasn't
    	 sure how my customers would react, but they've all been very
    	 positive.
    
    	What surprised me most was the reaction of one of my closest
    	 friends.  He just couldn't deal with it, and I seem to have lost
    	 that friendship because of it.  But on the other hand, his was 
    	 the only such negative reaction..
    
    	Just a few random thoughts from one who went through it....
    
    
    
    					-Rich

    
>    Joe, Ken, and Heather are amateurs.
    
 
	Aha, is that it!

    can I have some lessons please Ad?  (and where's Jamie when you need him)


	Heather.

    
    They sure are amateurs. But with my "Wonderful Wind-Up's for Winners"
    kit at a basement price of �450 +p&p, (or $875+p&p), they will soon be
    up there with the best. Inclusive is the "Post-reaction Explanation and
    Rational Discussion Kit".
    
    Delivery is bullet-like, and you have my word as guarentee of
    satisfaction & quality.
    
    T.J.A Enterprises. 

    re .-1 good point
    
    It was not my intent to be criticizing SOAPBOX. Rather to be saying it
    has a rather different goal -in my opinion- than =wn=. And that in my
    opinion one of its principal goals is to nurture polemics.
    I do not believe that folks consider =wn= to have such a goal.

    .128
>>    In a couple other conferences, a few of the guys on SUBURB are
>>    (fondly?) called the "SUBURBians."  I probably was wrong to b
       ^^^^^^^
    
    Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!
    
    They love us here, they love us there
    They love us every ******* where.
    
    And, I object to being called an amateur. Joe and Tony are amateurs
    because they haven't learnt the professional aspect of subtlety.
    Mind you, I'm not sure about Heather.
    
    Ken

>    Mind you, I'm not sure about Heather.
    
 

	Wise,      very wise.

    Snarf!
    
    Concise of HOO78C, the Netherlands

    HOO78C, another node to look out for ;-)
    
    Charles

|    HOO78C, another node to look out for ;-)
        
        Certainly you  don't  mean  that  sweet  and  innocent  Jamie
        Anderson now do you Charles ?  Ad, maybe. :^)
        
        Matt

    Ofcourse I don't mean Jamie.
    He's so innocent he wouldn't recognise a rathole even he fell into it.
    
    Charles

    Well i would just like to put my 2 cents worth in. I was talking about
    this to my SO the other night,and IMHO i would just like to say(though
    please remember this is only my opinion - don`t "torch" me,and i
    wouldn`t like to upset anyone):)!)!)#): but...
    
    what a load of crap.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    Suddenly my ears started burning. Wonder why?

    Jamie.

|    Suddenly my ears started burning. Wonder why?

        Someone pierce your ear with a soldering iron Jamie ?
        
        Matt

	Hi Jamie,

	Someone was suggesting I was an Amateur.


	I thought I was handling myself reasonably well, however, some obviously
	disagree, and noting from SUBURB seems to have peculiar effects on some
	people, so I thought I'd ask Ad and Yourself to help me out for a while.


	Thanks in advance,

	Heather

    
    
    	Well, that's one bit fixed......
    
    			Heather

    Who thinks Shilts is finished?
    
    Gripper Stebson.

>    -< grovel, grovel..... >-
    
>    so I thought I'd ask Ad and Yourself to help me out for a while.
                
    
    Now Heather, that's a blatant attempted windup if I ever saw one
    either/or someone has nicked your account. Anyway, it's not going to
    get me from under the settee. And Jamie's just gone for a few days for
    his 10,000 miles checkup.
    
    <insert innocent whistling here>
    
    Ad
    
    

>                           -< Heather is a defector >-

 
	Oh no I'm not!

	I noted from  RDGE09 for 3.5 years,
	then from     ATTILA for 1.5 years,
	and then from BIGHUN for 1.5 years,
	and from SUBURB for 2 months.

	As the development/test machines, were being replaced by STRIKR, and I
	had to move my "live" account, I decided to go to the standard 
	environment that I had been recommending to everyone else all these 
	years.

	So, I'm only a trainee on SUBURB.

	Heather

    
>    Now Heather, that's a blatant attempted windup if I ever saw one
>    either/or someone has nicked your account. 

	Well, no-ones nicked my account.......

>    Anyway, it's not going to get me from under the settee. 

	What's that yellow stripe along your back   :-)

>   And Jamie's just gone for a few days for his 10,000 miles checkup.
    
	And he never said, I didn't get to give him a kiss au revoir

>    <insert innocent whistling here>
    
 
	innocent....innocent.????????????.......and my cat doesn't eat fish!

	
	So, leaving me by myself huh?	
		
	Heather


	PS, the cat is under the settee with the fish, its a bit stinky under 
	there .

    I`ve never been to Devon. Is it full of dumplings?
    
    More interestingly,Tony asked if Peter "Shilts" Shilton is past it.
    
    I say he was past it 10 years ago.(Except when he saved goals).
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

>    I`ve never been to Devon. Is it full of dumplings?
 
	Devon Dumplings are special, they are girls born in Devon. 
	Yup, there are quite a few.

	Many of them support Plymouth Argyle - the only team in the UK football
	leagues to wear green.


	When someone has a baby, they are asked:-

	 "is it a Devon Dumpling, or a boy?"


	Well, I drew the long straw - I'm a Devon Dumpling!


	Heather

    >>	Many of them support Plymouth Argyle - the only team in the UK football
	leagues to wear green.
    
    What about Celtic, Hibs, and other Jocko teams?
    

>	Well, no-ones nicked my account.......
    
    So it's a windup then. I've forwarded the missing apostrophe in the
    above sentence to Capt'n Grammar Himself. That'll teach you.
    
>	What's that yellow stripe along your back   :-)
    
    An expression of the cuddly warm out of harm's way save cozy feeling
    that runs through me, obviously. :-)
    
    Tee hee.
    
    Ad
    
    PS: I nicked your cat's fish. 

    Why doesn't Mick Hucknall write some songs instead of doing oldies all
    the time?
    
    Imagine walking the streets with a `dumpling' on your arm?
    
    Tony.

    
>    What about Celtic, Hibs, and other Jocko teams?
 

	When you come from Plymouth, the world ends North and East of Bristol!

   	This is confirmed by the football pools, where Scottish teams are 
	tacked on the end - whoever has enough crosses left when they get that 
	far?

	
	Ad, shame on you, my cats were meowing all night, bemoaning the fact
	you knicked their fish.

	Heather


	PS, my cats eat raw fish - do you feel OK? 

    Fresh herring, with pickles and onions... Mmmmmh.
    
    :-)
    
    Ad

    Back to the subject at hand people....
    
    I have respect for individual style, whether its an earring, shoulder
    bag and even makeup on anyone, male or female.  As far as earrings are
    concerned I like them on men.  Doesnt matter where or how many.  I
    personally have 7 in one and 2 in the other....i liked the style.
    
    I also like many British bands that wear makeup, lipstick, eyeliner. 
    Its their style and I think its cool.
    
    Judy
    

    3 cheers for Judy for getting back to the subject.
    
    What British bands do you like?
    
    My favourites are Black Sabbath,Motorhead,Specials,Stiff Little
    Fingers,and Led Zeppelin. So there.
    
    Joe Strummer.
    

    re:-1 
    I liked Duran Duran when they first came out.  Lots of
    makeup/lipstick/hair coloring...
    I also like the Cure, the Alarm, New Order, and my favorite of all is
    the Chameleons who are not together anymore....
    There are alot of others...Judy
    

	I like the Beatles, and The Herd, and Fleetwood Mac(before Stevie Nicks),
	and The Hollies, and Eric Clapton, and The Who, and...........

	I don't like the Ink Spots.


	I don't like earings on men, for the same reason that I don't like them
	on myself..........

	It makes ear-nibbling dangerous.


	Heather 

    Don't forget my favourite.....Adam and the Ants.
    
    They were at their all time best around about the Prince Charming
    phase.
    
    
    oooooooohhhhhh
    
    Tracy W

    re .165, you're supposed to take the earrings off first.
    
    I like earrings on men.  Very sexy.
    
    Lorna
    

    while swimming in a lake with my kids and dog, the dog swam up to me
    and licked my face and neck.  In the process she snuffled the earring
    right off my ear.  I saw her mouthing something, and I'm not sure if
    she spit it out or swallowed it.  Bleecchh.

Re: .165

nibbling on ears that have earrings can be... interesting. Especially when you
grab them in your teeth and start pulling, gently... at first. They provide
an opportunity to be creative.

	-- Charles

    piercing my ears took a lot of the sensitivity out of my ear lobes
    
    Chs maybe I should suggest your method!
    
    :-}

|    piercing my ears took a lot of the sensitivity out of my ear lobes
 
        Hmmmm.   .   .I never had that problem.  Now if it were OTHER
        parts of the body. . .YEEE-OUCH ! :^)
        
        Matt

>|    piercing my ears took a lot of the sensitivity out of my ear lobes
 
>        Hmmmm.   .   .I never had that problem.  Now if it were OTHER
>        parts of the body. . .YEEE-OUCH ! :^)

Hmmm. According to the reports I have (and I have a "significant number")
sensitivity tends to increase, regardless of what "part of the body."

	-- Charles

    >Hmmm. According to the reports I have (and I have a "significant
    number") sensitivity tends to increase, regardless of what "part of the
    body."
    
    Charles, are you sure about *ears* specifically?  I haven't seen any
    reports of that.  
    
    (quick check...)
    
    Nope, absolutely no difference in sensitivity between my pierced and
    unpierced ears.  (After it heals, of course.)
    
    Of course, for other, more, uh, sensitive parts of the body, it's an
    entirely different story!
    
    (My ear lobes were never especially sensitive to begin with.)
    
    D!

>    Charles, are you sure about *ears* specifically?  I haven't seen any
>    reports of that.  
    
>    (quick check...)

I was not specifically replying about ears, in fact my reply was prompted by
the note mentioning "other parts of the body", but in fact I believe my pierced
earlobe *is* more sensitive than the unpierced one. But that's a peripheral
issue as far as *I* am concerned... :-)

For what it's worth, I believe that earlobes and the tip of your nose are two
of the more sensitive places on your body. This is by the standard test of
tactile sensitivity - take two pins a fixed distance apart, determine the
minimum distance at which the pin points can be distinguished. Other, more
sensitive body parts are lips, tongue, fingertips, and genitals.

Earlobes are right up there.

	-- Charles

For what it's worth, I believe that earlobes and the tip of your nose are two
of the more sensitive places on your body. This is by the standard test of
tactile sensitivity - take two pins a fixed distance apart, determine the
minimum distance at which the pin points can be distinguished. Other, more
    
    (This is a total rathole.  Oh well.)
    
    Actually it isn't clear that that test measures what many people would
    commonly call "sensitivity".  The problem is that people mean many
    different things when they say an area on their body is "sensitive". 
    There exists a number of tests: how far apart two points have to be to
    distinguish them, how much pressure is required to sense a touch, how
    much pressure is required for a touch to be painful, etc etc.
    
    When I say "my earlobes are not very sensitive" what I mean is that not
    *much* tactile sensation is produced by my earlobes.  They might be
    sensitive in the sense of distinguishing touches, the they don't react
    *strongly*.  They don't hurt much and they don't cause much pleasure. 
    However, my back, which is *less* good at distinguishing touches, is
    more sensitive because the same touch on my back produces *more*
    sensation.
    
    I have found that *magnitude* of the sensation, as opposed to it's
    "fineness" (for lack of a better term) corresponds more closely to
    it's, ah, sensual potential.  :-)
    
    D!

    Justine,
    
    Thank you for explaining what you meant, it does make more sense to
    me now.  I think sometimes it's more difficult for *me* to see how
    a certain phrase or attitude can cause such anger, especially if I
    don't identify with the particular group that feels insulted.  For
    example, in this note...I am not gay, so I may view what is said 
    in a different fashion (as I explained earlier) because the comments
    were not made about something I hold as important in the context of
    my life.  I'm not devaluing people who are gay or saying they aren't
    important.  It's just that if these issues (such as gay rights)
    dont' directly affect me, I'm viewing comments through an unexperienced
    eye.  I don't know what it's like to be gay in this society and as
    such don't understand (really) the frustrations many of these folks
    deal with.  It doesnt' mean that I think anybody's being too sensitive,
    but I do agree that if somebody appears to be asking questions due to
    a real concern to learn that although viewpoints may differ, the sense
    of respect for fellow humans is not being lost.  Perhaps this entire
    issue is one we could discuss in another note, unless of course there 
    is already one in place.  (I dont' mean the sensitivity note, but 
    the difference of being gay as opposed to straight-hope I'm using 
    the right terminology and that nobody has been insulted by these
    'labels').  So yes, Justine, I understand better now your anger now
    that I can see how the comments made you feel devalued.  They didn't 
    make me feel devalued, but as I said, I didn't feel that an integral
    part of who I am was being called into question in a negative manner
    either.
    
    
    Christine