Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Everyone seems to have forgotten this one, possibly because it was a
    shocker in its time, long gone.. but who remembers Maria Schneider in
    "Last Tango in Paris"?
    
    Don
    *8-)

    Katherine Hepburn in "Woman of the Year".  For its time, a *very*
    feminist movie!
    
    
    E Grace

    I was dazzled by the quality and emotional breadth of that performance.
    
    And in re 604.1 tho I hate to say it, all I recall was The Butter Scene
    :-)
    Here's to a lower-cholesterol 1991, Cheers, Dan

    I liked Myrna Loy in some of her early stuff.
    
    
    Don
    *8-)
    

    I just loved Kathleen Turner in "War of the Roses".  Of course because
    I can relate to her in that situation.  :^)
    
    Kel
    

    Re .3
    
    It darned near saved our flagging dairy industry too.
    
    
    Don
    *8-)
    
    

    
    christine lahty (whom i don't normally care for) in 'housekeeping'
    
    anne carlisle (do i have this right?) in 'liquid sky' (which i just 
    
    watched again on christmas eve ;^)
    
    catherine deneuve and susan sarandon in 'the hunger'
    

    Tim Curry in Rocky Horror Picture Show ;^)
    
    The women from Witches of Eastwick
    
    
                                       L.J.

    Isabelle Adjani in Camille Claudel
    
    Eugene

    re:.2
    
    I agree with your general sentiment about Katherine Hepburn, and
    her performance in WOMAN OF THE YEAR was as wonderful as any of
    her performances, but as a feminist movie, WOTY is a particularly
    bad example. *For its time*, yes, it was a feminist movie in that
    it showed a woman in a position of power and competence.
    
    HOWEVER, what happens at the end of the film?  She subverts her
    own ideals and career in order to become a "good wife" to Tracy,
    because that's the way he wants it. While a woman choosing a
    husband over a career is a valid choice, this choice does not seem
    in character for Hepburn's role, and in fact flagrantly violates
    her character.
    
    ADAM'S RIB is a much better example, or THE AFRICAN QUEEN, THE
    PHILADELPHIA STORY, or THE LION IN WINTER.
    
    Other nominations of mine:
    
    Lillian Gish in THE NIGHT OF THE HUNTER
    Margaret Hamilton in THE WIZARD OF OZ
    Ingrid Bergman in CASABLANCA
    Helen Mirren in 2010
    Michelle Meyerink in REAL GENIUS
    Simone Signoret in SHIP OF FOOLS
    Mary Steenburgen in TIME AFTER TIME
    Linda Hunt in THE YEAR OF LIVING DANGEROUSLY and in SILVERADO
    Megan Follows in ANNE OF GREEN GABLES
    Colleen Dewhurst in ANNE OF GREEN GABLES
    Piper Laurie in CARRIE
    Faye Dunaway in CHINATOWN
    Claudette Colbert in IT HAPPENED ONE NIGHT
    Jane Alexander  in TESTAMENT
    Ellen Burstyn in RESURRECTION
    Diana Rigg in THE AVENGERS (TV series)
    
    --- jerry

    See also womannotes-v2 note 776

    Ingrid Bergman in "The Inn of the Sixth Happiness"
    Catherine Deneuve in "Belle du Jour"
    Grace Kelly in "The Country Girl"
    
    Don
    *8-)

    
    jessica lange in just about anything (esp. 'frances' and 'music box')
    winona ryder in just about anything (esp. 'heathers')
    

    Ruth Gordon in "Harold and Maude"
    
    E Grace

>    Ruth Gordon in "Harold and Maude"
    
Yes, me too. I love Ruth Gordon.

Also, Bette Midler in Beaches
Everybody in "The Women," the movie of Claire Booth Luce's play.
Yes, goofy in many ways, but it was fun to watch women with
women with women. 

The only woman I've every really identified with -- oh yeah, 
that's me -- in movies is "Schultzie," the actress who played 
everyone's sidekick/best friend in the '40s movies.  

    Meryl Streep in Sophie's Choice
    
    Lana Turner in Madame X
    
    SandieD

    Jane Fonda in Klute
    
    Liz Taylor in anything, but especially The Sandpiper
    

    Meg Ryan in "When Harry Met Sally"
    Glen Close in "Dangerous Liaisons"
    Mary Steenburgen in "Ragtime"
    Amy Irving in "Crossing Delancy"
    Cher in "Moonstruck"
    Kathleen Turner in "When Peggy Sue Got Married"
    Natalie Wood in "Love With the Proper Stranger"
    Joanne Woodward in the original "Long Hot Summer"
    Christine Lahti (whom I normally like :-) ) in "Housekeeping"
    Meryl Streep in "Out of Africa"
    Judy Davis in "A Passage to India"
    Julie Christie in "Dr. Zhivago"
    Diane Keaton in "Annie Hall"
    
    
    
    Lorna
    

    
    Cher and Meryl Streep in "Silkwood".
    Meg <someone> (Meg Ryan?) who played the woman who was looking for 
    connections in "The Big Chill".  (Meg Tilly in that one as well, for 
    sheer desirability.)
    
    CQ

    Whooh!
    
    I can't believe I got 70% done reading these replies and no one had
    mentioned Meryl Streep! She's my idol.
    
    	Also,
     Cher in Mask. She was ripped off of an Oscar nomination that year
                   although she won Cahns (sp) Film Festival Award.  
    
    Sally Fields in Sybil.
    
    Joanne Woodward in Three Faces of Eve
    
    
    
    Kate   

    Re .21
    
    Good to see an Aussie gal made your list! Actually, they're not doing
    so badly of late..what with Nicole Kidman secretly marrying Tom Cruise.
    
    Don
    *8-)
    
    P.S. What's our Anne Lambert doing over there these days..or is she in
    the UK?
    
    

	Anne Bancroft in "The Miracle Worker"

					clb

    Also, from this past year:
    
    Elizabeth McGovern in "The Handmaid's Tale"
    Melanie Griffith in "Pacific Heights"
    Julia Roberts in "Pretty Woman"
    
    Other favorite performances:
    
    Kim Basinger in "9 1/2 Weeks"  
    Debra Winger in "Terms of Endearment"
                    "An Officer & A Gentleman"
                    "Black Widow"
                    "Urban Cowboy"
                    "Betrayed" (I think that's the name with Tom Berenger)
    
    (I love Debra Winger)
    
    
    Lorna
    

    .23 reminded me.  Anne Bancroft, in any movie she cares to appear in.
    
    I saw her in a 3-D movie made in the '50s, you know, the kind you had
    to use those funny red-and-blue glasses for.  The movie was a -300
    rating, but A.B. was UNBELIEVABLE.  She played a woman in a carney
    show, her act was called "Laverne Flirts With Goliath".  She flies on a
    flying trapeze above Goliath, a gorilla, and swings down to him, and he
    carries her off into his lair.  I know, I know, and I agree (with what
    you're thinking of this act!)  But remember sexy, sultry, Mrs Robinson?
    Now imagine that same woman at age 22 or so.  Holy Toledo.  I could
    give up on men, at least for the night.
    
    'Course, she and Shirley MacLaine were galaxies past and better than
    that, in "The Turning Point"

	Meryl Streep in *anything*, but especially Plenty and Postcards
	From the Edge.

	Jessica Lange in just about anything. (Frances, Tootsie, the one
	where she plays a famous country music singer....)

    Meryl Streep in almost anything. Maybe *any*thing.
    
    Some of the old comic actresses like Joan Davis and Eve Arden. Gone
    now, both of 'em.
    
    Martha Raye, too. She does serio-comic very well, but we never get
    much chance to see it.
    
    --DE
    

    
    Barbara Strisand in FUNNY GIRL
    Jane Fonda: COMING HOME, ON GOLDEN POND, CHINA SYNDROME
    Carol Burnet in FRIENDLY FIRE
    
    M. Streep in ANYTHING!
    
    kj
    

>    Re: .15
    
>    "Schultzie?"  Could you be thinking of Ann B. Davis, who played
>    Schultzie to Bob Cummings the fashion fotog in his TV series in the
>    '50s?  

Yes, thanks. Never noticed her real name. I've never seen the Brady
Bunch, but now I will try to pick up a rerun.  Liked her much ...
she was such a human being.

And my other get-out-the-video-tape is Selma Diamond.  To see Selma
is to imprint. :)                      Meigs

    The leading lady in the Abyss - Mary Elizabeth Mastrontonio?
    Children of a Lesser God - Marlee Maitlin
    Eyewitness - Sigorney Weaver
    Places of the Heart - Sally Field
    

    
    ref .20, it was Mary Kay Place in The Big Chill, playing a 
    character named Meg, not Meg Ryan.
    
    Also, Linda Hunt in The Year of Living Dangerously.
    
    CQ

    
    jody foster in 'the accused'
    kelly lynch in 'drugstore cowboy'
    julie andrews (!) in 'the americanization of emily'
    goldie hawn in 'wildcats'
    leslie ann warren in just about anything, esp. 'victor/victoria'
    another vote for myrna loy and mary steenbergen
    marilyn chambers in 'insatiable'
    

    Marilyn Chambers in "Insatiable"????
    
    Your true taste in movies comes out, huh, Joe?
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  What's it about?
    

    >Marilyn Chambers in "Insatiable"????
    >P.S.  What's it about?
    
    Just what it sounds like.  :-)
    
    D!

    re .35, I didn't think it was clear who was insatiable.  :-)  
    Reminds me of another female role I liked:
    
    The lead character in Spike Lee's movie, "She's Gotta Have It."
    Her name in the movie was Nora Darling, but I don't know what the
    actresses real name is.
    
    Lorna
     

    
    Kelly McGillis in Witness ... Holly Hunter in Always ... Jody Foster in
    The Accused ... Kathleen Turner in Jewel in the Crown ... also a Meryl
    Streep fan, and getting away from movies, I think that Dame Judi Dench 
    is one of the best Shakespearean (and indeed all-round) actresses I've 
    ever seen.
    
    Sam
    

    
    re:.34
    we can discuss it in private sometime ;^)
    

    THis is not a movie, but I thought that this might be an appropriate
    string. 
    
    Emily Atkins as Virginia Woolf. Last night on Masterpiece Theatre, she
    gave a one person performance of a talk that Woolf once gave to a
    British Women's school. The title was "A Room of One's Own" 
    
    Absolutely fabulous. I'm glad I taped it. It's a keeper.
    
    Phil

    
    re -.1
    
    Thanks for mentioning this - I saw it too and thought it was superb.
    Atkins really brought to life the words Woof spoke in a lecture she gave
    to women students at Cambridge U. in England in 1928. I thought the
    part about Shakespeare's sister was especially moving.
    
    Isn't Masterpiece Theater repeated some time during the week?
    
    D.

Christine Boisson in "Sorceress."

(Incidentally, I found this movie very thought-provoking re women's 
history. Boisson plays a 13th-century herbal healer, a "forest woman" in a 
village in southern France. She becomes the object of suspicion of a friar/ 
Inquisitor who comes to the village to rout out heresy. When he threatens 
her with burning at the stake, and she turns to him and says (accurately, 
as it turns out) "There is some great hate in you" -- implying that he's
projecting that hate onto her and her healing works -- she might be
Everywoman addressing all of Patriarchy; she makes what happened to women
during the Burning Times all too comprehensible...) 

D.

ps the movie was made in 1988 by Pamela Berger -- well she didn't direct it
but discovered the text on which it's based, and she wrote the script.
Berger is the art historian at Boston College who also did the movie "The
Imported Bridegroom." 

    D, yes Masterpiece Theatre is repeated during the week. When, I don't
    know. Check your local listings. I, too, was moved by the Shakespeare's
    sister part. I also, loved the part about Aphra Behn, the first woman
    to support herself solely by writing. All I had ever heard about her
    was in an SF novel by Philip Farmer. One of the Riverworld novels.
    She is one of the most interesting people I evr heard of.
    
    Not to Rathole this topic, but, (there's always a but) I have sent my
    tape of this show to E Grace, and if anyone else would care to see it,
    they are more then welcome to borrow it. I also caught on the same
    tape, a segment of Sunday Today that dealt with modern Goddess worship.
    One of the people on it is Starhawk, author of The Spiral Dance. The
    segment isn't long but it is interesting. E should receive the tape
    tomorrow or the next day. You can let either her or I know and I will
    be happy to and I hope she will be happy to forward it.
    
    Phil

        But I am going to meet the one I love
        At last! At last! At last!
        I am going to meet the one I love
        La-de-da, la-de-da
        No, Mamma, let me go!
        I thought that if you had
        An acoustic guitar
        Then it meant that you were
        A  Protest Singer
        
        	"Shakespeare's Sister", by the Smiths

Ah, no, Mike, but nice try. I too loved the sister story. It's inspired my new
mail personal name. "Shakespeare had a sister. She died young" it was a 
beautiful rebutal to some bishop's assertion that the lack of a female 
Shakespeare proved women were inferior. liesl

    Reminds me off a song by (urg, can't remember who...Sweet Honey in the
    Rock, maybe, or an offshoot?) about "Did Jesus have a little sister?" 
    Good song, interesting though.
    
    D!

    A chilling preview showed in the theater where I went with a date last
    night.  But it looked like a good treatment of a serious problem.
    
    Julia Roberts in "sleeping with the enemy."  She appears to be running
    from an ex-husband who is bent on not living without her, or making sure
    that _she_ does not live without him.
    
    Something I'll see when it comes out.  Any information on release dates
    for this film would be appreciated.
    
    -jt

    Katharine Hepburn in The African Queen.  
    
    Bette Davis in Dark Victory. 
    
    --bonnie

    re.47 
    
    that would be Genevieve Bujould [sp?]

    Definitely Genevieve Bujold in Anne of the Thousand Days.  I liked her
    in Coma, Choose Me and Tightrope, too.
    
    One of my favorite movie dialogs is from Tightrope, where Genevieve
    Bujold talks to the macho Clint Eastwood.  It went something like this.
    
    He:  I hear you're friends with the mayor.
    
    She: Yes.
    
    He:  I hear he's gay.
    
    She: Would you like a date?

    
    Re -1
    
    Hahahahhahahahahahhahahahhahahahha!
    Like it!
    'gail

    I just saw the most wonderful movie. I hadn't heard anything about it,
    so I wonder if there won't be a minimum of advertising for it. Which
    I think is a real shame. I definitely the recommend this movie...
    
    Whoopi Goldberg and Sissy Spacek are the stars, and the movie is a
    slice of life from the Montgomery bus boycott. The realtionships
    between/among the women are the main theme, and it is one of the
    few flicks that I've seen that do a good job with that theme.
    ("BEaches" coms to mind as another).
    
    The more I see of Sissy Spacek, the more I respect her acting.
    And what can one say about Whoopi Goldberg?!
    
    I rate this 3� stars and 1� hankies. See it.
    
    --DE
    

    	Either Barbara Walters or the Oscars show last night
    	mentioned this movie. Barbara was interviewing Whoopi
    	Goldberg (as well as others) and Whoopi won the Oscar
    	for her supporting role in GHOST.
    
    	Scott

    
    	First time a black female has won an Oscar since 1939.
    
    

    Moderators/ I did a dir/title=movie and this appears to be the
    best selection.  If the thought would be better placed in another
    topic, please move it there.
    
    Thank you-
    
    I saw switch this weekend.  It was kind of funny. I laughed quite
    a bit.  It faded out towards the end though.
    
    Spoiler following. (Someone tell me how to insert a formfeed please)
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    The movie contains,
    The first WOMEN's bar I have ever seen on film.
    And some interesting female issues, such as Credit being taken
    for work.  Less experienced men getting women's rightfull places.
    And homophobic reactions. ... Although you may feel there is quite
    enough of this in real life.. You may enjoy the way it was done.
    
    Cindi

    Hi Cindi,
    
    I didn't read your spoiler, cuz I want to see the movie myself. Thanks
    for putting in all those returns!! :)
    
    In the future, to do a form feed (this works on my VT320) hold the
    control key & type L  -- This SHOULD work.
    
    Bon

>    In the future, to do a form feed (this works on my VT320) hold the
>    control key & type L  -- This SHOULD work.

I don't know about Cindi, but I can't do form-feeds in XNotes, so I 
use a number of carriage returns to do the job.

D!

    It may not work in Xnotes, but some editors require control-V
    before accepting any control code.  So you'd hold down the
    "Ctrl" (or Control) key, and type "V" then "L", and then release
    the "Ctrl" key.
    
    						Ann B.

Well, let's give it a shot.

Here:


Did it work?  I don't think so.

D!

    Even if you do successfully add a formfeed, it doesn't hide the
    text from someone using DECwindows Notes, since DeathWindows eats
    the form feed and burps out a carriage return. So if you want to
    hide something in a generic form, adding enough line feeds to make
    it easy to not read what follows (since you don't really know how
    many lines are in the window) is the only way I know of which
    works.
    
    This text immediately follows a form feed. If you're reading with
    DECwindows Notes, I believe you'll see it right after the first
    paragraph.
    

        D! ... among your other text widget translations, put in
        one to self-insert ctrl-L, like the following does
        (except that I replaced the other lines with "[...]"). 
        You could do this with *DwtText, *SText, *Text, and
        whatever matches the Motif text widgets.  If xnotes uses
        text widgets it should pick up the customization.
        
        Dan
        
*DwtText.translations:  \
#augment \n\
	[...]
     Ctrl<Key>l:	self-insert()\n\
        [...]

My text widgets???

hahahahah.  Yah right.

D! who never customizes everything

    Hello, 
    The form feed CTRL-V CTRL-L seems to place it in my file,
    but I will use it here to see if it really works.
    After this:
    
    
    Thank you all, it would have been just before this line if it worked.
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    For the topic-
    
    Silence of the Lambs & The Accused
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    Just in case the form feed isn't working.
    
    
    
    
    
    Foster has done some good work.
    
    Cindi

re: .62 (Cindi)              -< Thank you and Foster >-
    
>    Silence of the Lambs & The Accused
     
>    Foster has done some good work.
 
	Silence of the Lambs  is my favorite movie of the year	
	so far!  I think I like it because Jodie Foster has
	always portrayed The Victim in her former movies, and
	in Silence of the Lambs, she is 

	(warning... spoiler)

	
	
	The Survivor, The Victor !!!

	Also, the last time I phoned Massad Ayoob (self-defense and 
	firearms expert; police officer and trainer, prolific writer, 
	etc...),  I asked him if he had seen the movie, and if
	so, was the very last scene involving Jody Foster using her
	gun realistic (I had doubts when I saw it on the screen.)

	He said it was absolutely realistic and went on about how
	she did everything precisely as it should be done (from 
	"clearing the house"  to  reloading given the type of gun
	she was using, etc...)  

	He contrasted her with Dirty Harry, who he calls
	"A good example of a bad example"   in terms of proper
	procedures for the situation.  Ayoob does a hilarious 
	imitation of Dirty Harry ;-) ;-).  

						nancy b.

    re .63, but Nancy, my friend Roger told me that he literally almost
    threw-up while watching The Silence of the Lambs, and that he couldn't
    sleep all that night.
    
    He said, "If there's one movie you want to MISS in your lifetime, it's
    this.  Cause I know you.  You can't stand violence and this would make
    you sick to your stomach!"
    
    What do you have to say about that?
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
    	Lorna,
    
    	See it with me and I'll tell you which scenes to close
    	your eyes! 
    
    					(I'm serious)
    
    					nancy b.
    

    Lorna and Nancy,
    
    Its review on NPR made me feel like throwing up. Okay, it was 7.30 in
    the morning and maybe I can handle things better later in the day. But
    I don't want to see it.
    
    manisha

    Clarice Starling is one of my all-time favourite protagonists. And
    Hannibal Lector has one of the most fascinating minds I've ever
    encountered.
    
    However, when I heard that "Silence of the Lambs" was being made into a
    movie I had my doubts and well as elation.  The word-pictures painted
    were quite graphic and some of the concepts hit me at an extremely
    visceral level.
    
    Elation was winning out, especially when I heard about the casting --
    Foster as Starling seemed a fabulous choice and Hopkins as Lector to my
    mind could not be a more superb choice.  Then I heard an interview with
    Hopkins about the filming of a particular scene near the end of the
    story and my doubts came back re-doubled.
    
    I'm still dithering on seeing this one.  I don't have a weak stomach,
    but I cannot imagine how the gore could be treated without it coming
    across as exploitation or sensationalism ...
    
      Annie

    Re 604.67
    
    About the gore, I could not really tell you.
    I did the "Tell me when I can open my eyes" viewing for large
    sections of the picture.  
    For the pieces I did see, it was not gratuitous at all.
    They alluded to much of it, and left you to picture most
    of it for yourself.
    For what was there, it may have made your skin crawl, but
    it all had visual associations that made it worth while...
    
    EG.  A deathshead moth is disgusting to look at in it's pupal
    state.  However, seeing it displayed, help you make the link
    between skeletons and death very easily.
    
    As for the worst gore I witnessed-
    
    Christ figures are common in america...
    
    Cindi

    Annie, the movie stuck *very* close to the book.  The dialog was pretty
    much verbatim, as were the scenes.
    
    Hopkins was perfect as a very intelligent sociopath.   Which is why
    this was such a disturbing film.  In normal life we don't meet too
    many people like him (well, current project leader excepted ;^) and
    to see someone with such a value system appear "normal" one second and
    just over the edge the next is jarring.
    
    Why I didn't/don't think a lot of women would like this film is because
    outside of Agent Starling, women appear only as victims.  Its bad
    enough to read about it in the papers, but to see it graphically in
    front of you can make you ill. 
    
    Jim

    re: silence of the lambs...
    
    I can't speak to how it related to the book...but i thought it
    was GREAT!!!  frightening in a 'believable' sort of way.  Yes,
    it could give one nightmares...
    
    but it was done excellently, the casting was superb!
    
    I've been a Jodie Foster fan a long time, she just keeps getting
    better!
    
    deb
    

    Thanks to all the encouragement I've received both here and in mail, I
    shall try and pencil SOTL in on my calendar ...
    
    The book did not give me nightmares.  Chills, yes.  Deja Vu, yes. Much
    to think about, yes.  Nightmares, not hardly.  [not after being a
    volunteer in a domestic violence crisis center and two years of
    hand-holding in ER ...]
    
      Annie

"Silence of the Lambs" is almost painful to sit through because
of the suspense (I watched almost half of it with my fingers spread
across my eyes).

But then when you get out of the theatre, you're so exhilarated to have
survived it, you think it's wonderful.

Kathy

    I was contacted via mail about how my response contained incorrect
    information.  In particular, I was called on there not being any
    "non-victim" women besides Clarice Starling, when in fact there
    was the Senator from Tennesse, her daughter (who made several
    efforts to escape her dungeon), and Clarice's roommate.
    
    What was so interesting is that I completely forgot about these
    characters because of other the other subplots going on.
    
    This noter had an interesting point about the daughter not being a
    complete victim since she fought back several times against her
    attacker.  I considered her a victim since her attacks were, for
    obvious reasons, ineffectual.  What did other people who saw it
    think?
    
    Jim

    Re .73: 
    
    <spoiler warning...>
    
    
    
    I agree that the Senator's daughter was much less of a typical "victim"
    than usually seen in slasher movies (or any other kind of movie, for
    that matter); while obviously (and reasonably) terrified, she still
    kept working on ways to deal with the situation, and her last attempt,
    though it might not have gotten her free by itself, certainly
    stalled the killer long enough for Our Hero (Clarice) to take a hand.
    Definitely more of a believable character than a female-shaped token to
    scream on cue and be rescued in the nick of time.
    
    It *would* have been rather fun (she said wistfully) for the victims to
    have been men, though. I wonder what that would have done to the
    story's dynamic...
    
    -b

    re.74
    
    -b,
    
    men being the victims of this _particular_ killer, Jame Gumb, would have
    been somewhat ludicrous in the context of this story.  Jame's reason
    for selecting & killing the women was pragmatic, if grisly. 
    
     Annie
    
    

    Re .75:
    
    <spoiler warning>
    
    
    
    Not that hard to warp, actually. The killer could have been a psychotic
    98-pound weakling who wanted massive pecs, Herculean thighs, etc., and
    decided to borrow them from others instead of building them himself.
    [So how does such a weakling capture these strongmen, somebody asks?
    Drugs, guns, and a knack for a fireman's carry ought to do it. ;-)]
    
    Admittedly, it loses some of the psycho-sexual stuff, but since the
    movie didn't get into that much anyway, I think it could work.
    
    Or - hey, wait! We could make it a racial thing instead of a sexual
    thing, and then ... er, maybe not. No matter which way it went, I
    suspect somebody'd start making inflammatory speeches. And the old
    "scarred in a fire and trying to graft new skin" stuff has been done to
    death <pardon the expression>; we're looking for a truly bizarre motive
    here. Hmmm. Maybe somebody's making a new outfit out of people (of
    either sex) who have Really Interesting Tattoos...
    
    Semi-seriously,
    -b

    re.76
    
    exactly my point.  it'd be a different story.
    
    no judgement, or opinions, offered or implied.
    
    your alternative starting points are equally plausible, I find the last
    one offered the most engaging, or perhaps I should say 'do-able with
    minimum possible re-write.'

    i saw _thelma & louise_ last night and was terribly impressed. the film
    is funny, sad and angry all at the same time. the two main characters
    (played by susan sarandon and geena davis) grow and change throughout
    the movie, show strengths and weaknesses, and generally act like two of
    the more believable female characters i've seen in a movie in a long
    time.
    
    it's *not* a comedy, though it does have some funny scenes. reminded me
    a bit of _bonnie and clyde_...
    
    ...laura

    re .78, I also saw Thelma & Louise this past weekend.  I loved it.
    The acting was excellent and the movie maintained a high artistic
    quality throughout.  I think it reminded me more of Butch Cassidy and
    The Sundance Kid than Bonnie & Clyde, though.  The friendship between
    the two main characters was similar to the friendship between
    Newman/Redford only they're women!
    
    To me this movie is basically about the quest of the individual for
    personal freedom, and refusing to allow oneself to be mistreated by the
    establishment.  In the past, movies like this (Easy Rider, BC&theSK)
    have always been about men.  I really love the way this movie addresses
    the fact that a lot of women want more out of life than a date to the
    prom, a husband, a baby, or even a career as a business woman.  A lot
    of women also want freedom, want to have a good time, and want to defy
    authority at one time or another, but it seems that in movies only men
    have expressed these desires in the past.
    
    I could really relate to seeing how excited Thelma & Louise were at the
    beginning of the movie when they were first setting out for a weekend
    vacation on their own.  It reminded me of so many times in my own life
    when I've also felt elated and excited as I set out to do something
    with a female friend and hoped to have a good time.  I realized as I
    watched the movie that I've hardly ever seen that feeling expressed on
    in the movies before.  (except in this movie and in the recent Mortal
    Thoughts).
    
    Lorna
    

    
    RE last couple
    
    I saw "Thelma and Louise" on preview last night (I think they're
    still undecided about whether to release it here or not).
    
    Excellent movie.
    I left feeling exhilarated and with an urge to hit the road.
    Themes for me - female friendship, how women change when not
    constrained by society, standing up for yourself and your beliefs,
    loss of naivety, gain of personal power...
    
    And the soundtrack is superb too - I'll definitely be buying it.
    
    'gail

    re .80, yes, the soundtrack is great!  I plan to buy it, too.  I liked
    it from the very beginning of the movie.
    
    And, I agree with your themes, too.  
    
    And, some of the lines in the movie are wonderful, too, but I don't
    want to give anything away by quoting any.
    
    Lorna
    

    I *liked* "SWITCH" *a lot*.
    
    It waas a wee bit cliche, but VERY funny.  Also, it made a bit too much
    of a point to hit ALL the women's issues, and how a man in a woman's
    body might take to them....but it handled them pretty realistically.
    
    spoiler warning....
    
    
    Most eye-opening quote in the movie might be after Steve gets into
    Amanda's body and is hanging out drinking with his/her old buddy Walt
    (I think that's who she/he is hangign out with).  Well anyway the buddy
    pipes up after listening to Amanda blather on and on about some women's
    issues that she "sounds just like Gloria Steinem".  Funny.
    
    -Jody
    

    Well, I thought Switch was amusing but there were a few points about it
    that *really* bugged me...
    
    (spoilers follow)
    
    1 - "Amanda" succeeds in a man's world by sheer bravado.  Since she is
    a man, and has never in his life taken sh!t from anyone, he will take
    no sh!t from anyone - and he knows how to play the game from his days
    as a man.  I thought this sent a message that the only way to succeed
    in a man's world is to *be* a man.  The only woman who really wins at
    the game is one who was really a man.  It was *so* easy for
    Steve/Amanda to win, it was like "See, all you women are complaining
    for nothing!  All you have to do is *take* what's yours and everything
    will come easy."  Why is it that, even in this supposedly feminist
    movie, it is *still* the man who comes out ahead?
    
    2 - Jimmy Smits (I can't remember his character's name) *rapes* Amanda. 
    At first, Amanda has what I consider a "proper" response - s/he slugs
    him, s/he gets really pissed.  But later, s/he falls in love with him,
    and everything is okay.  He supposedly plays a Nice Guy character, too! 
    This seems to send a message that Amanda/Steve really did, indeed, want
    it.  He *wins*, in effect - saying that, while Amanda/Steve may have
    been upset for awhile, what happened in the long run was okay.
    
    3 - despite all the scenes with a "woman" eyeing other women, the movie
    was rather homophobic.  Steve/Amanda is a homophobe and never really
    addresses that problem.  Kinda screws hir, too, since s/he can't have
    sex with a woman because it is the same as hir body's sex and s/he
    can't have sex with a man because it is the same as hir mind's sex. 
    The representation of the Lesbian was reasonably sympathetic, I guess,
    but there was still a lot of anti-male-homophobia.
    
    4 - I never *liked* any of the characters.  Steve/Amanda was a sexist
    pig, even to the end, Jimmy Smits was a rapist, the perfume company
    Lesbian was a cold fish, etc.
    
    5 - the ending was a cop out.  The only female s/he could find who
    liked hir was hir BABY???  This is supposed to make us feel that s/he
    has succeeded in hir purpose on earth????
    
    D!

	I saw Thelma and Louise a week ago.  What an exhilarating movie!  
        The ending is shocking, but I couldn't think of a better one.  I
	would have been disappointed if they'd settled for an unrealistic
	ending.  The music was superb.  I just might buy the soundtrack.

	And now I just gotta brag a little:  I saw BB King perform the 
	last song in the movie in person! %^)  *Definitely* the King of
	The Blues!!

	Sue

    We saw THELMA AND LOUISE last week.  While I agree that, taken as a
    whole, it was a good movie, there were some real problems.  *I*
    thought.
    
    I felt that some of the devices used for moving the plot along were
    contrived, some infuriating and, at times, just unbelievable.
    
    *spoiler alert*
    
    I do not understand how a woman who has come so close to the point of
    insertion, in a brutal rape, would - the very next day - be ogling and
    wanting to pick up a complete stranger.  This really disturbed me.  It
    seemed to be sending the message that rape and being punched in the
    face (to say nothing of murder) are really no big deal.
    
    I don't know, there were some other things that grated also, but that
    was the worst.  Maybe it was because it was so close to the beginning
    of the movie that the rest of the movie seemed "off" to me.
    
    Yet, on another level I enjoyed the movie tremendously.  Go figure.
    
    E Grace

    E you beat me to it. I too saw THelma and Louise yesterday and was
    bugged by that part. 
    
    They also left a few loose ends that made me feel like I had missed
    that first fifteen minutes of the movie. Or maybe I'm just too dumb to
    put the pieces together.
    
    manisha

All this talk about Thelma and Louise got me to the theatre this
weekend.

I enjoyed the movie, but didn't think it was great. It seemed as
though I'd seen the same movie, with some basic twists, several
times already. The difference this time was that the main characters
were women, and that made it fun.

E Grace, I had the same thoughts you did....

Kathy

    Kathy, exactly. It was almost Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid with
    women in the main roles. I saw it Saturday. What was different to me
    was the strength they showed in these women and how when it seemed like
    one was just about to "lose it", the other would be there to pick up
    the support. I loved that. Also, although the humor continued to zing
    along and I probably might have laughed normally, I stopped laughing
    about 2/3 of the way through. I realized that they were using the humor
    to keep from totally breaking down. While that is a normal human
    reaction to scary and violent situations, I felt as an outside observer
    who could see this taking shape, that ir was no longer a funny
    situation, that these two people were in a potentially life ending
    situation and they might not be able to find their way out, unless they
    did some fast thinking.
    
    The ending was a little unfulfilling to me. I ambivalent on it. It's
    either perfect in my mind or else umcomplete and almost a copout. I
    keep switching back and forth. I will say that I very much enjoyed the
    movie as a whole and I hope it is the top grosser of the year and in
    the top ten all time. It does deserve to be. I know it will probably
    not be number one, but I keep a good thought.
    
    PJ

    re .to those of you who have a problem with what Thelma did in the
    movie, I have to admit that I had *no* problem with it.  I could easily
    imagine myself doing the same thing.  I guess some of us just never
    know when to quit.  (*Now* had the situation the day before been any
    *more* serious, I would question her actions...but the situation was
    scary but not as bad as it could have been.)  Besides, one bad apple
    don't spoil the whole bunch, does it?
    
    Lorna
    

    
    finally got to see 'thelma and louise' (the seattle international
    film festival kept getting in the way; yes, i'm bragging). anyway,
    this is an *incredible* movie. one of the best i have *ever* seen.
    every element of film making is superlative: plot, acting, music,
    cinematography, etc. etc. to paraphrase bill murray, if you see
    only one movie this year, see 'thelma and louise'.
    
    more specific comments follow:
    
    
    because i'd read a little about this movie, here and elsewhere, i
    had a certain amount of confusion about thelma's post-attempted-rape
    actions. the women i went with, however, had no problem at all and
    said that they felt that it was, in a weird way, a freeing experience
    for her. kind of a 'nothing left to lose' feeling that allowed her
    to see it as merely an extention of the rest of the shit in her life.
    i was starting to realise that by the time we got to the end of the
    movie, so the final moments hit with extraordinary power and left me
    in tears.
    
    i accept that there are certain surface similarities between 'thelma
    and louise' and 'butch cassidy and the sundance kid', but the point
    and function of the two are completely different��. for one, 'bc&sd'
    is about two 'heros' and about two men who had some bad breaks and
    things go from bad to worse. 't&l' is about two average woman, not
    unusual in anyway, who are met with tragedy and violence, and for
    whom there is *no way out*. as louise says, 'we don't live in that
    kind of world'.
    

    
    Glad you enjoyed it as much as I thought you might, Joe...
    'gaiol

I saw "Thelma and Louise" last night and thoroughly enjoyed it. Every woman
should see it (though not all women will like it).

It could have been a great movie, but the people who put it together settled
for cheap commercial tricks. (I *detest* car chase scenes--haven't we all seen
enough by the time we're six years old?) The last five minutes left me
emotionally distanced when I could have been in tears.

But it's the most enjoyable and stimulating movie I've seen in a while.

Vicki Meagher

    re .92, I *was* in tears the last few minutes.  Not emotionally
    distanced at all.
    
    I usually do detest car chases but I got a kick out of seeing women do
    something that usually only men have gotten to do before in the movies.
    
    I'm glad you liked it overall, though, and I agree that every woman
    should see it.
    
    Lorna
    

re. Note 604.93                      Women in Movies                        93 of 93
GLITER::STHILAIRE "just for one day"                 11 lines  13-JUN-1991 11:46
    
    
>    I usually do detest car chases but I got a kick out of seeing women do
>    something that usually only men have gotten to do before in the movies.
    
>    Lorna
    
    Then you might like 'Terminator 2 - Judgement Day' starting 
    next month. From the previews it looks like Linda Hamilton will
    star in the action movie to end all action movies. (IMHO she's
    way overdue for an Emmy or Oscar anyway.)

    >From the previews it looks like Linda Hamilton will star in the action 
    >movie to end all action movies.
    
    _Can_ anyone else "star" in an Arnold movie?
    
    But it's true, she's not in the little "help, help" role.  Nope, from
    the pictures I've seen, she's willing and able to kick some serious
    butt as a guerilla figheter.

    Yeah, the previous look great!  It's Aliens all over again.  YAY!
    
    D!

    Just a nit:  the car chase, blow up scenes were put in there
    intentionally.  The producer was on NPR and said that 'Thelma
    and Louise' was (not his words completely) designed on a macho-man
    type of format, perhaps to show the ridiculousness of that type
    of 'action'.
    
    What made the movie for me was the line, "....if you do not do
    as we say, we will consider it an act of aggression against us..."
    
    I'd say every *man* and woman should see it.
    
    M.
    

    One of my favorite lines was when Thelma tells the cop at gun-point,
    to be sweet to his wife, adding, "My husband wasn't sweet to me and
    look how *I* turned out!"   :-)
    
    Lorna
    

        I also liked the movie Thelma and Louise a lot.  I
        remember thinking during one of the scenes ...
        
        	You've read the conference ... now see the movie.
        
        I thought a number of discussions from here were touched
        upon in the movie.
        
        One of my favorite scenes...when her husband answers the
        phone as if he is happy to hear from her and Thelma
        immediately knows that the police must be there.
        
        Dan

    I saw T&L a few weeks ago.-
    
    
    
    
    IMO, I wanted to strangle her for leaving the money with a confessed
    criminal.
    I wish there was some end or solution for them more then flying off
    into heaven.
    
    I'm still unclear as to if Sarandon's character had shot 2 men or
    only the one, with serious wishes on shooting the first.
    
    After watching it, my husband commented, rather aptly, that he
    did not think I and my girlfriend Cathryn should be taking any
    trips to the mountains together.
    
    The only weapon I have is a bow...
    but I would be willing to learn.
    
    Hit home.
    CB-M

Er, umm, I haven't seen the movie, but from reading all the various
remarks about it here and hearing reviews, etc., the only conclusion I
can come up with is that its popularity is pretty much based on having
a couple of women behave as if they were Jerry Reed and Burt Reynolds
in Smokey and the Bandit.  The only justification I can see is that they
are supposed to have been raped and otherwise maltreated.- awful as that
is, is it an excuse for behaving like a couple of lawless jerks?  Do you
accept it as a reason for male lawlessness?

Sounds like a pretty serious putdown against women, if you ask me.

So what am I missing here?

-d

    Well, you got to see it, and think while you're watching.  They may
    use the same Hollywood 'techniques' -- blowing up trucks, etc.,
    but this movie brings out the everyday, little annoyances, putdowns,
    criticisms that most women live with everyday, and don't even know
    it's happening until they've lost all self esteem and love for
    life.
    
    This movie is a lot more than simply reverse violence...
    Maia
    

    Go on, -d, just spend the $6.75 and SEE THE MOVIE.
    
    Like, Casa Blanca is just about a woman torn between two loves, right?
    
    Like, Ordinary People is just about this average family with a couple
    problems, right?
    
    Like, Raiders of the Lost Ark is just another shot-em-up adventure
    movie, right?
    
    Like, ET is another alien invasion movie, right?
    
    Like, Gone With the Wind is just enough sappy romance, right?
    
    --------
    
    T&L don't act like "lawless jerks", and the fact that you refer to them
    as such just shows what a big difference there is between reading a
    review and seeing a movie!
    
    D!

You really ought to see the movie before deciding...
The (very limited, comparitively) amount of "violence" done in T&L is
done from a thoughtful, what-are-the-options basis, and the characters
think and feel about their actions before and after.  This is in 
stark contrast to your usual movie -- how often did you see Rambo, or
any of his little imitators, actually feel or think anything about their
choices and the people they are dealing with?

	MKV

    
    I don't think there was one bit of gratuitous violence in Thelma and
    Loiuse.
    
    CQ

    On the other hand, there's TERMINATOR 2: JUDGMENT DAY, which is
    chock full of gratuitous violence. Well, it's not *really* gratuitous,
    as it's all there in support of the story.
    
    Anyway, it has a fine, strong performance by Linda Hamilton. Sure,
    she's second banana to Arnold Schwartzenegger, but she manages to
    get in her licks, too. And my hat's off to her physical training
    instructor -- she *looks* like she's spent the last 10 years training
    for the end of the world.
    
    --- jerry

    Yes, the violence in T2 *is* gratuitous.  I mean, they didn't *have* to
    show all those people getting their heads...oh well, never mind, those
    of you who have seen it know what I mean.
    
    I liked it anyway.  To hell with wimpy women characters who cry and
    swoon and call for help.  Sarah Connor is a *goddess* to be sure!  A
    woman in prime physical condition who is trained in military command
    and knows how to handle a gun *and* pick a lock!  And nothing, not
    drugs, not sexually abusive mental ward guards, not a blade through the
    arm, will stop her! (And Linda Hamilton is TO DIE FOR!!!)
    
    Don't see it if you have a really low tolerance for graphic and brutal
    violence, though.  I spent about half the movie with my eyes covered. 
    Fortunately, the violence is extremely predictable - you know *exactly*
    when it will happen, and exactly in what form (once you've seen the
    first one) so there is no difficulty in turning away, unlike a horror
    movie where things pop out of shadows.
    
    D!

    There's a very interesting article in the Science section of the
    Globe today (July 8) on research indicating that we have become
    a more violent society since the introduction of television. It
    also has a lot to say on the brain chemistry of seeing vicarious
    violence.
    
    Eileen

        
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    I just saw Thelma and Louise this past weekend -- now I can finally
    read all the discussion here and all the reviews - the review in
    Sojourner is particulary wonderful.  I really enjoyed the movie.
    I did find that Thelma's behavior early in the film put me off a bit
    (first thing she wanted to do when on this trip with her woman friend 
    was dance and flirt with a guy, and I, too, found it surprising and 
    troubling that she would be so quick to trust that man she met after 
    having been assaulted by a man that she *thought* seemed nice), and
    it took me a while to warm up to and believe in the depth of their
    (Thelma and Louise's) friendship, but then it felt like I was following
    right behind them in their evolution - Thelma became less
    male/other-identified and more self-identified and Louise softened a bit 
    and grew to trust someone other than herself, and in turn, I identified 
    more with and cared more about them.  I wasn't all that into the car 
    chase scenes, but then I kept remembering that it was women doing this -- 
    driving competently, fast, powerfully, brazenly.  They called a sexist 
    pig on his s*it and didn't back down. I didn't see gratuitous 
    violence or "reverse sexism" or "male bashing" in this film.  It was 
    about women - both the hopelessness and the power.  I want to see it again.
    Who knows maybe we'll live to see a movie that portrays powerful women who
    don't have to get raped and then die in the end -- they could just have
    an adventure and still get to live and be happy....  imagine.
    
    Justine  

The movie is "Salmon Berries" and from all accounts (one) it is TERRIBLE.
Apparantly the great and wonderful kd can't act to save her life, and
the nude scenes are few and far between.   :-)

D!

    But she was so good in "Pee-Wee's Christmas Special"!
    
    Horrorstruck,
    Ray

    
    Saw "An Angel at My Table", the story of Janet Frame, a New
    Zealand poet and author.  A powerful autobiographical movie
    chronicling her life from age 8 to �40, including the eight
    years she spent in a mental institution receiving electric
    shock treatments for unfounded schizophrenia, and where she
    penned her first published book of short stories.
    
    It evokes many emotions throughout its 3-hour duration.  I
    really loved it, and the strengths and weaknesses of Janet
    were presented without justification or apology.  Really a
    special film.
    
    Carla