Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I don't manage very well without toilet paper, personally.  Are there
    women who do?
    
    boy, I must be REALLY culturally ignorant....
    
    -Jody
    

    In some countries water is used in stead of toilet paper because water
    cleans better.
    
    Charles

    re .2, but then how do they dry off?
    
    Lorna
    

     Lorna... Air dry... HAHAHA!!!!
    
    REK
    
    :-}

    re .4, yeah, but people usually have occasion to put their pants back
    on, not having sufficient time to air dry!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    At the risk of noone ever talking to me again, I'll try to answer.
    Formfeed for those who don't like hear about such details
    
    
    After peeing, you flush and walk out. No washing, no wiping. I have a
    lot of pubic hair, but it never caused any problems, infections etc.
    
    After, um how do I say this, um a bowel movement, you wash with water.
    You don't wipe dry after washing which meant your panties could get a
    little wet. But again I don't remember it being a problem.
    
    So that is how you live without a toilet paper. Incidentally, if you're
    used to washing, wiping just doesn't feel as clean. Took me a while
    to get used to. 
    
    About birth control - I don't know. The govt. is certainly trying to
    push comdoms and IUDs. There are advertisements everywhere. But judging
    by the rate at which our population is growing, I don't think that
    contraceptives are very popular.
    
    

    re the base note, are you saying there is no toilet paper in Taiwan?
    We definitely use toilet paper in the Far East if that is what you are
    wondering.
    

    re .6, considering Americans used pages from catalogs and even corn
    cobs before they had toilet paper, I guess it's understandable that
    some of us might find that hard to get used to.  Usually if I'm in a
    restroom and one of the stalls has run out of paper, I notice that
    nobody goes in there.  They wait for the other stalls.  As a culture,
    we seem to be into wiping.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    Thanks for the info, though.  It's interesting to hear how differently
    everyday things can be done in various cultures I think.
    

    re: .7
    I was in Taiwan for 2 weeks.  During that time I used both western
    style and 'Far East' style (in the floor).  At no time was toilet paper
    available to me in the floor-style models.  I used kleenex.
    
    re: washing
    How do you use the floor-model toilets to do any washing?  I was able
    to squat down but not close enough to wash......
    
    Still perplexed....Judy
    

    Some people take water in with them and pour.
    
    Briana

    Toilet paper is widely available in supermarkets, and home. Most of the
    public restrooms do not offer toilet tissues. I always brought along my
    own supply (kleenex), or you get them from an older lady that cleans
    the bathroom. In return for the toilet paper, and hand towel, you would
    leave her a tip. 
    I don't want noters here to think that Far East is so backwards that we
    use hands :-)
    

    Not only that, but it also takes your temperature and analyzes your
    waste to determine your health!
    
    Costs �3,000 or so as I remember from Saturday Night Clive.
    
    Amazing :^)
    
    Cheers,
    	George

    
    
    			CORN COBS ?!?!?!?!!
    
    
    AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

    That type of toilet came up couple of years ago, by the TOTO company of
    Japan.  
    I have seen bathrooms in the Far East where there is a water
    container (something like a coffee pot with a long spout) discreetly
    placed in a corner of the room... in both, public places and private 
    homes. Also, prior to the invention of the toilet paper there were
    newspaper sheets, neatly cut in squares and hung by a side of the wall
    within easy reach...
    That method has been used for many years by many different countries.
    I have to admit that... I have no knowledge of what method people had
    prior to the invention of paper press!
    ...May be old rags? Who knows! the human mind is very sharp, and has 
    survived for quite a few thousand years.

    Harking back to the outhouses of their childhoods, my parents still
    refer to toilet paper as either "corn cobs" or "the Sears and Roebuck
    catalog."  And yes, out-of-date catalogs were left in the outhouse for
    judicious use of their pages.
    
    Karen

    oh, you must mean fresh corncobs, not old dried ones!  Say it's so!
    

    One year I took all the kernels off my Indian corn door decoration.
    The resultant cob felt surprisingly soft and silky to my fingers.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    Not as sophisticated as the air-blow version, but....
    
    In Greece, in a toilet in a restaurant, I came across a shower head
    installed next to the toilet in the ladies.
    Curious (as you would expect), I turned it on.
    I was amazed to find that all the holes seemed to have been blocked
    except for a few which directed the shower jets, broadly, at the
    bits which would most need cleaning - if you held it under you,
    obviously.....
    
    I still blush to remember that, having discovered this, the wretched
    thing then refused to turn *off*.
    I eventually dumped it in the washbasin and left the area.....
    
    'gail 

    Didn't one of Rabelais' characters try out a number of different
    things for, um, wiping purposes? I seem to recall that he did *not*
    recommand cats - the fur's nice, but those _claws_! - and that his most
    satisfactory choice was "the downy neck of a goose"... 
    
    Ah, the classics! 
    
    -b

	In fact, those of you who stayed up late enough to watch Carson on
Wed, got the pleasure of seeing one of the Japanese marvals on the show.  Comes
complete with a remote control. (Better than trying to reach behind you for
the controls ;-) )

						--D

    
    My neverending fascination with European commodes led me to push a
    strange button while using a toilet in a Swiss home.  The ensuing
    rush of warm water was surprising, to say the least, but pleasant.
    
    Hours later, I emerged.
    
    Carla
    

re: .19:
    One year I took all the kernels off my Indian corn door decoration.

Gosh, did it hurt much?

Martin.

And remember, back in the days of high fiber diets certain bodily functions were
less, umm, messy. liesl

    >I have heard rumors of a new toilet, in technology-conscious Japan,
    >that sprays you gently but with enough force to wash you and then
    >directs a flow of warm air at you like a hot-air hand dryer.
    >
    >Can anyone confirm or debunk these rumpors?
                                        ^^^^^^^
                                           |
    Interesting typo-----------------------+
    
    					andrew

It was my impression that in many countries you were expected to provide your
own TP in public restrooms. At least that's what my guidebooks say...

	-- Charles

    dried leaves and moss have also been used for similar purposes.
    just imagine what women did for menstrual fluids before kotex.
    for a long time it was rags which they had to wash each month,
    but i do recall that moss and rabbit pelts were mentioned by
    jean auel (valley of the...)
    
    face it, toilet paper and bidets are a modern convenience, generations
    upon generations got by with much less..
    
    gross remark follows form feed
    
    
    
    
    i recall (in an earlier version of =wn= perhaps), someone mentioning
    the problem of cleaning up small oblong knots of dust and fur
    that fell in the churches from women's privates during the services.
    
    they were called something like sofit mouses....but I really don't
    remember this well, it made me gag to read it.
    
    bj

    
    for a tampon/"kotex" type substitute.
    
    
    
    3 Pottery sponges tied up with dental floss left dangling.
    

    What about women's urinals?  Are they cultural too?  I noticed they are
    much more common in Canada than in the U.S.
    
    There are some of them here in some of the ladies rooms in MRO1, but as
    far a I can tell, noone uses them.  If that's the only stall available
    people wait.
    
    Mary

    Birth Control: In Germany & France, from talking with women , men &
    doctors, it seems like ALL WOMEN use the pill. People were shocked when
    I told them that a lot of women in USA use methods like the diaphragm
    due to health concerns about the pill. I was shocked that so many
    women in Germany & France do not consider other ways than the pill.
    Most German women start very young to take the pill & it is not paid
    for at all by the govt. for students (no planned parenthood clinics).
    
    Toilet paper: My cousin who was a missionary in India told me that
    they use their left hand, & therefore it was considered very rude
    when he passed food at the dinner table with his left hand (unknowingly
    at first).
    
    When I went to Russia a student there told me that toilet paper was
    unavailable for the general public to buy. It was in our hotel however, I
    I carried my own around.

>    When I went to Russia a student there told me that toilet paper was
>    unavailable for the general public to buy. It was in our hotel however, I
>    I carried my own around.

	I spent about 6 months as an exchange student in Moscow.  At that
	time, toilet paper appeared only sporadically in stores, so we
	were instructed to bring our own.  When that ran out, we either
	bought some in stores (for the few lucky enough to be in the right
	place at the right time), got it through friends who stockpiled it,
	or used paper towels or paper napkins (which were much easier to
	find).  Generally speaking, it was expected that public toilets
	(except those in hotels) would not have any toilet paper.

	Due to the scarcity of the stuff, when we had excursions to other
	cities and stayed in hotels, the toilet paper in our rooms generally
	left with us. (Four years in the U.S. later, I find this amusing.)

	    Sharon

    
    re:.33
    lauren had much the same experience. when she tried to purchase
    contracepive gel they looked at her as if she was from mars.
    

    re. 33
    
    Euro-use of the pill, I suppose you can include Holland in that,
    although I've heard that the low-hormone "mini" pills are *much* more
    common over here - in fact it's an exception to see the "normal" pill
    be prescribed. Maybe this difference is due to the "mini" pill not
    being as common in the US? 
    
    Since this is only hearsay feel free to let me stand corrected!! 
    
    Ad

    Low dosage oral contraceptives are indeed the most prescribed (at least
    in Holland and Germany).
    Medium to high dosage ones are prescribed only when the body weight
    requires it (drugs dosages are always in mcg/kg bodyweight) and
    sometimes if a woman somehow can't get into the routine of taking the
    pill at the same time each day.
    Somehow in this part of the world oral contraception is considered the
    safest and most practical method of birth control.
    More and more people opt for a permanent method however after they
    consider their family to be complete.
    
    Charles, who used to do pharmaceutical research in a previous life

>    More and more people opt for a permanent method however after they
>    consider their family to be complete.
    
 	This is, however, selective. If you consider your family complete with 
	no children, then permanence is not easy to achieve.

	Heather

    Even people who consider their family complete without children opt for
    the more permanent method.
    
    Charles

>    Even people who consider their family complete without children opt for
>    the more permanent method.
    
    Charles, I have been trying to do this for 20 years, I believe that I may
    succeed within the next 2 years.

    It isn't easy.

    Heather

    That's a long time indeed!
    It's funny to hear the lame arguments the medics produce when you tell
    them you don't want any children because you're convinced you won't
    be able to be a good father for them and that having children will
    cause your marriage to go down the drain.
    My medic immediately came with the question "but what if your wife dies
    or you get divorced and you meet another woman?"
    I managed not to get angry but told him quite clearly that me not being
    able to be a good father had nothing to with my wife or any possible
    future wife but with *me*.
    After that it was simple.
    I think they would even except that from single people.
    
    Charles
                                                           

    I guess I was just lucky.  I simply explained to the doctor that I
    hated kids.  After that, it was easy!  (*8 
    
    Seriously, I explained my reasons for not *ever* wanting children, and
    that I had known this for ~7 years.  Since I was married, the doctor
    wanted to see my husband to make sure we were in agreement and that he
    (the doctor) wouldn't end up getting sued or something.  If I had been
    single the doctor would not have needed to speak to anyone else.
    
    Oh, the doctor asked my if I was really *realllly* sure, but all in all
    the discussions only lasted 1/2 hour or so.  I had never had a child,
    and I was 23.  Considering that my husband was 36, I guess I am lucky
    that I wasn't talked out of it in favor of Richard getting a vasectomy.
    
    E Grace

	Last week in the Boston Herald there was an article that linked
vasectomies to a higher incidence of prostate cancer in men.  That is all
I remember from the article and I threw the paper away so here's 2 cents worth.

						Kbear

    Re .42

    >I simply explained to the doctor that I hated kids.

    Perhaps you are preparing them wrongly. Have you tried sauteing them
    and serving them with root vegetables and a cheese sauce?

    Jamie.

	Thanks Jamie, that made my day,


	I'm sure I could convince them If I used that line     :-)


	Maybe I should collect a whole bunch of recipes?         !


	Heather
	

    (*8  (*8  (*8  (*8  (*8
    
    E Grace

Saute a young child? How barbaric. Saute should be saved for older children,
which being generally less tender respond better to saute. Adolescents are fit
only for braising, and even then it's difficult to make a truly elegant
presentation of adolescent. Full adults are only fit for stewing. I myself,
prefer to be stewed in Port, but I find that a good bitter, or even Burgundy
works as almost as well. Young children, being the most tender of the family,
and having a larger portion of body fat are best roasted.I concur that root
vegetables go well with roasted young child, but they too should be roasted. I
feel that a cheese sauce is inappropriate, as the delicate flavor of the
yongster would be overwhelmed, and since there is so much fat, a hollandaise or
bernaise is inappropriate as well. Personally I'd recommend simply larding with
a bit of garlic, and serving in it's own juice.

	-- Charles (owner of a fine 20 pounder...)

    No, Charles, adults can be roasted and even be well-presented.
    There is a regretably excellent description at the beginning of
    _Courtship_Rite_ by Donald Kingsbury.
    
    						Ann B.

Of course, if you ask an expert, you'll get some other information
you probably didn't know you needed.

Date: Fri, 23 Nov 90 19:12:30
From: [email protected]
Subject: leftovers
To: [email protected]
 
... [respelled to avoid offending the fastidious]
 
a cannibal who graded his victims for taste appeal says the flesh of other
savages is much better than that of outsiders - especially the germans,
russians and japanese.
 TOH HOON, 53, revealed to dutch anthropologist JAN de GRAAF that he had the 
opportunity to sample dozens of foreigners in his 40-year career in the
jungles of borneo and made mental notes about all of them.
 dr. de GRAFF of Amsterdam said the man's first choice for a meal of human
flesh was other cannibals and headhunters "because they have good, clean
tasting flesh with excellent texture."
 The worst flesh the cannibal ever had was that of a japanese scientist,
who tasted like "raw fish sprinkled with sand," the expert said.
 "i'm not at all surprised that he preferred his own kind because all
primitive people believe themselves superior to everyone else," dr. de
GRAFF added. "What does surprise me is that he rated the flesh of his
victims according to their nationality.
 "He could actually taste the differences that were borne of their
widely different dietary backgrounds."
 According to dr. de GRAFF, TOH said he hasn't had a meal of human flesh in
several years because old age now inhibits his hunting.
 But he seemed to have a vivid recollection of several dozen humans he
ate in previous years and had this to say about his dinner guests:
ENGLISHMEN: " tough and stringy, but otherwise tasty."
GERMANS: " entirely too fat and greasy."
FRENCHMEN: " greasy, but very tender."
JAPANESE: " terrible, and only CHINESE are worse."
HISPANICS: " full of gristle, but great as a soup."
CANADIANS: " bland, almost watery, better with spices."
RUSSIANS: " bitter and foul-smelling."
ITALIANS: " spicy."
POLES: " too spicy."
IRISHMEN: " sickly sweet."
 "The one AMERICAN TOH ate wa rated high for taste, texture and appearence,"
said dr. de GRAFF.
 "The meat wasn't quite as good as that of savages, but TOH said it was
definitely second best."
 
frater luXnoIr

    I disagree...I think sauting would be perfect.  But I agree that a
    hollandaise sauce would be to much...rather, I think delicate spicing
    and just a little butter (olive oil, maybe?) would be perfect.
    
    Then, of course, for the adventurous ones, don't cook it at all. 
    Googoo maki (baby sushi) is fabulous, but the baby *must* be very
    fresh.  Don't use too much soy sauce or wasabi, though, because as
    pointed out before, the flavor is too delicate to be hidden by strong
    flavorings.
    
    D!

    can we please get back to the base note topic..
    
    this rathole is a bit hard on my stomach
    
    Bonnie J

    I guess that rules out making any references to "The Cook, the Thief,
    his Wife, and her Lover" (the most revolting movie I have ever seen, by
    the way).
    
    -- Mike

    re .54, someone in the Movies notesfile rated "The Cook, the THief, his
    Wife, and her Lover" as one of their all-time favorite movies, which
    amazes me!!  (another womannoter warned me not to see it, saying it
    would make me sick...right, jwhite?)  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    I went up to Denver one day last summer with the intention of
    participating in a sort of "art" film viewing marathon, but I made the
    mistake of deciding to watch "The Cook, the Thief, his Wife, and her
    Lover" first.  I came out of the theater so disgusted, and so shaken,
    that I cancelled my plans of seeing any more movies that day.  I have
    never hated a movie more in my entire life than I hated that one.
    
    -- Mike

    
    
    	me too!! I was so revolted!! I don't see how anyone can
    	find this to be a `black comedy'????? the only redeeming
    	quality was the boy's voice...
    

    I kind of watched whoozit's "Sex in the Soviet Union" last night.  What
    I remember was that intimacy was really difficult for Soviets:  no
    privacy, NO birthcontrol, many, many abortions for many women:  more than
    30 for some, because of the lack of birthcontrol.
    
    Briana 

    Koppel's "Sex in the Soviet Union" also mentioned exhaustion as a
    reason women were not interested in sex too much.  I also thought that,
    given the abysmal state of birth control, to have sex in the Soviet
    Union is very often to get pregnant.  Then you are faced with the ugly
    choice of having (another) child to raise in a 3 room 1-bath apt you
    are sharing with 2 other families, or to abort the child.
    
    Gah.
    
    Am I ever glad my ancestors had the sense/good luck to get out of
    Eastern Europe and Russia at the turn of the century!

    Another worldy difference:
    CIRCUMSISION . The men in German & France (at least) are not
    circumsised. 
    

    re -1.
    Well I did read a study which found that women who had sex only with
    circumcised men had lower rates of Cancer of the uterus than women
    who slept with uncircumcised men. I do not remember the exact figures,
    so maybe there's still something to be said for circumcision.

In my experience, electronic discussions of circumcision - no matter how well
intentioned - quickly devolve into heat and argument. I would suggest we
quarantine this discussion NOW by creating a new topic on the subject. I will
not do it personally, since I find the notion of a man creating a topic on
circumcision in Womannotes faintly absurd... For a full, flame filled,
"discussion" on the subject see Mennotes.

	-- Charles

    the conversation he mentioned is at:
    
    MENNOTES
    56 - circumcision
    
    -Jody
    

I have questions going back to the hygiene, etc topic.

When I stepped into my first restroom in France, what I found was a small
hole in the ground with two ceramic "footprints" built in.  I'm assuming other
places in the world have these, and that they *don't* have the water
availability that has been discussed.  In those places, and in the places
*with* water but nothing to dry with, do most of the women wear dresses
of some kind, and does that make it easier to "drip dry"?  Also do women
all over the world wear underwear, or do many countries have a woman's
costume of just being a dress with no underwear/undergarments?

         Carol

>When I stepped into my first restroom in France, what I found was a small
>hole in the ground with two ceramic "footprints" built in.  I'm assuming other
>places in the world have these, and that they *don't* have the water
>availability that has been discussed.  In those places, and in the places
>*with* water but nothing to dry with, do most of the women wear dresses
>of some kind, and does that make it easier to "drip dry"?  Also do women
>all over the world wear underwear, or do many countries have a woman's
>costume of just being a dress with no underwear/undergarments?

 
	It's not lack of water - normally the "public" loos are like this, but
	those in restaurants and hotels are not, as they are designed more for
	tourists.

	If you use the "footprints" often enough, then you get used to the 
	balance required, and you always remember your own loo paper!


	Heather

I think what Carol is getting at is that most US women would have a hard time in
pantyhose and underwear using something of this design. 

BTW, I've used loo papaer in England, YIKES, that stuff is like wax paper. My
favorite was in Kew Gardens where there was a little stamped picture of the
royal crest on each piece. liesl

Basically, I want to know that if women are expected to drip-dry,
then do most of the women in that culture wear underwear or not
(especially in dresses)?

     Carol

>I think what Carol is getting at is that most US women would have a hard time in
>pantyhose and underwear using something of this design. 

	Ah well, in France, it's usually so warm that you have bare legs,
	however, I never been able to manage pantyhose, I think they are one
	of the most awkward and rediculous pieces of clothing ever invented.
	I've never been able to manage them in "ordinary" circumstances. I
	had to buy some when I was in Maryland, until I could find a place
	to buy stockings, I couldn't believe they were so difficult to get
	hold of. Most places in the UK that sell pantyhose (tights) also sell
	stockings, including places like 7-11's (and the shop here in DECpark).
	Stockings are so much nicer and easier - and don't come with the above 
	problems.

	But as I said, these type of loos are not common, and usually public
	loos, I normally go to a bar/restaurant, have a drink, and use their 
	loos
	
>BTW, I've used loo papaer in England, YIKES, that stuff is like wax paper. My
>favorite was in Kew Gardens where there was a little stamped picture of the
>royal crest on each piece. liesl

	Err, I also take my own loo paper in the UK if I think I may have to
	use public loos. You will find the soft paper in most hotels/pubs..etc,
	but some still use the Jayes paper - as it's medicated, it's meant to be
	more hygienic. (It beats a newspaper!).

	Heather

Total rathole:

I hate the word "panties" to refer to women's underpants. Yuck, it's like we
were little girls. I can't speak for the rest of you but mine don't have ruffles
over the bottom or plastic liners.

Heather, I agree with you about pantyhose but I hate stockings too. If I wear a
dress it's with bare legs or boots. I like knee socks too.

Tip: If you are going to be where you must "drip dry" often then trim the old
pube hairs so they don't get wet. :*) liesl

    re .70, I also hate the word "panties" for women's underpants.  I think
    it sounds vaguely nasty for some reason.  :-)
    
    Although, I prefer pantyhose to stockings.  To me pantyhose are more
    comfortable than bothering with garters, which I think feel awful on.
    
    Lorna
    

All right, all right!  I won't use the word "panties" any more!  :-)
I was trying to make a distinction between "underwear" and all undergarments,
like bras.

Do women wear underwear in India, Pakistan, Korea, China, Thailand, Kenya,
etc?  Especially in the rural areas?

     Carol

    Carol
    
    I had a friend from Nepal years ago in grad school, I'm trying to
    remember what she said about under  garments.
    
    I believe that the sari was origianlly a single garment and that 
    the top and anythin underneath came later and with the upper classes
    originally.
    
    Manisha if you are reading this can you help me withthe details.?
    
    But the basic answer from what i've read is that no, poor women
    in any culture don't wear under garments of any kind.
    
    Potentially offensive material follows:
    
    
    
    I recall someone mentioning in an earlier version of =wn= (my
    memory wants to 'blame' Ian Philpott for this) about the fact
    that churches in medieval periods had to sweep out bundles of
    dust and hair that fell from the privates of poor women after
    Mass. They were called '-------' mice.
    
    
    Bonnie

Wasn't me Bonnie: can't say I've ever heard that story before... In any case 
it sounds unlikely since underwear was adopted by the poor long before the 
wealthy (as late as a hundred years ago wearing underwear was considered a 
sign of slovenliness by the upper classes in Britain, and only the poor did 
so.)

As for the topic: rural Thai women wear both pants and bra under their clothes
(and think farang women who go braless because of the heat are quite shameless)

personally "Pantie" implies smallness, not feminity or girlishness. Young girls
wear [gym-]knickers and wouldn't be allowed to wear anything so skimpy as a
panty... of course in America knickers are outerwear, I know.

/. Ian .\

	Underpants ????? yuck!

	They're those mens white Y fronts that reach to (and sometimes past) 
	the waist.

	I can't remember what's actually written on the shelves in 
	stores for womens underwear, I'll check next time.

	I usually call them knickers.  
	I have heard them called briefs or panties.
	I have never heard womens underwear to be refered to as underpants.

	and pantyhose - this name is not used here either - they're called 
	tights.

	(we do call socks, socks tho')

	Heather

    A lot of Indian women, particularly in the rural areas, don't wear
    underwear. Neither do the dhoti-clad men. But most urban people do.
    Pantyhose and stockings are unheard of. 
    
    I think whether one wears underwear or not is irrelevent. The point is
    we, as a culture, are just not into being dry and deoodorized all the
    time. 
    manisha

    > Pantie implies smallness
    
    Oh no!  My husband refers to his undershorts as "panties".
    It always cracks me up when he does that.  :-)
    
    Mary

    I think they're just known as "womens briefs" Heather, I am not
    too sure though.  I usually just call them knickers.
    
    But I can tell you that men's are known as (or labelled as)
    "slips".:-))  
    
    
    Tracy W.