Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I realise that your reporting may not be accurate, but if it is then
    your erstwhile friend sounds as though she is heading for a nervous
    breakdown.  Do you know anyone else who knows her?  If so, perhaps
    they've also noticed unusual behavior, thoughts, or reactions.
    
    						=maggie

    I don't understand why you want to be friends with this person. They
    don't seem to be very nice nor do they seem to want to be your friend.
    How more obvious do they have to be? It would seem that any further
    efforts you might spend would be better spent either with your husband
    or on making new friends.
    
    			Alfred

I might be worthwhile to think about why you want to be
friends with a person who has so much of a negative impact
on your peace of mind.

I think Alfred makes a good point in suggesting that further
efforts might be better spent (for you!) on other relationships
that cause less stress for you.

Take care of yourself.

Kathy

    
    Forget her!  It easy..belive me!! and dont let her get the best of you
    and dont be affaired to run into her..just walk by and smile..and have
    confidence in your self to find somone better then that for a
    friend..and dont look at this at a loss...nothing is a loss if you
    learn from it..you've learn what kind of perosn she is and to say away
    for any more like her!  
    
    

    I'm not sure that giving up the friendship completely is the answer,
    and even if it is, it isn't necessarily as easy as some of the earlier
    replies have implied.
    
    There are some friendships which I have invested a tremendous amount of
    effort and emotional energy into it.  If this friendship is like mine,
    it isn't just a matter of "finding a new friend", because no friend can
    replace another.  It's more like a break-up with a lover...if it turns
    out that you have irreconcilable differences, it will probably take a
    long time to get over.
    
    My suggestion is that you wait a while (a month or two) and then ask
    her if she'll spend some time talking to her. Explain that if she will
    talk with you honestly, and at the end of it still says she doesn't
    want to see you anymore, then you will abide by her wishes and leave
    her alone.  When you see her, be very honest, and tell her how you feel
    and ask her to explain how and why she feels the way she does.  You can
    at least *understand* even if you are still hurt.  Try not to get
    defensive or angry or accusatory.  Just listen and explain.
    
    If she still doesn't want to see you, well, what can you do?  Only
    start your own recovery...
    
    Good luck,
    D!

    No one in a relationship is blameless...but neither is anyone totally
    to blame.  All relationships are systems, complete with feedback and
    cycles; each person in a relationship is responsible for that
    relationship.  Listen to what your friend says...she probably is right
    about some things.  You are 50% of the relationship, but she is the
    other 50%.
    
    D!

    Why the urge to continue something not too good and that broke couple
    of years back? Why do you NEED to keep on begging for frienship with
    her? It would be much better to seek it with your husband, you would
    find lots of things that would make the two of you closer and not
    apart.  I understand frienships, (I still have all my friends since I
    was 7 years old and I'm over 45...) but I cannot understand that you
    need to take a MONTH OF ABSENCE FROM WORK to "heal" from it? Is there
    something more than frienship? if it is, what is it? I just don't get
    it.  I also broke with a friend couple of months back bacause private
    problems that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with our frienship, but it
    became sour, and I just let it go because it was the best thing to do
    at the time, she knows that I cared for her, that our friendship was
    sincere, but when something comes along that disrupt it... it breaks,
    fortunately I have my family, mi children, my husband, all of them take
    preference over any frienship that I might have, now or before I had
    them... and sure enough, they explanined and conforted me and made me
    see that... I had not lost much, compared with what I have.
    
    Sheer up and forget your friend, she does not need you.  And you
    certainly does not need that type of friend that makes you loose so
    much... MAKE NEW FRIENDS AND LIVE! 

RE: -.2 I'm also affected by the "month off work" that was needed. That seems to
me to say there is more involved thatn meets the eye. It seems you have a real
*need* tp force this person to be your friend. Doesn't her claim that you are
pushing yourself on her make any impact? If this was sexual I'd consider it
harassment when one half of the relationship *refuses* to give up. 

EDP - I can agree with what you said in general but from the things said in .0
I find the author seems to be obssesed with this. There isn't enough info from
both sides to make any determination over which, if either, "friend" is the one
in need of help. liesl

    Hope this is sensitive enough...
    
    My first reaction was that the writer says she's having troubles in her
    marriage (and possibly with her sexual identity? -- Though on the
    latter, I'm only reading something into the clear hurt and need
    for/involvement with the other person, and the writer's need for a
    month off from work because of the hurt) and was reaching out to the
    erstwhile friend in an effort to save a relationship, the depth of
    which perhaps even she is not aware.  
    
    Pardon the convolutions but "bottom line" from this perhaps
    oversexualized perspective, I think maybe the writer is more attracted
    to her former friend than she knows...  
    
    But just as likely, =maggie's 557.1 could be it.  Hard to know, as she
    and many others have said, given the evidence.  If possible I'd counsel
    the writer to give it time, which heals all wounds.
    
    This, too, shall pass...
    
    Dan

    The following response is from the basenote author:

    ======================================================================

    I think I need to make a clarification here.  The thought has crossed
    my mind that I do have a serious problem communicating what I mean in
    words.  Maybe that's why I feel misunderstood both by my friend and by
    some of those who replied here.
    
    (.2)
�    I don't understand why you want to be friends with this person.

    (.3)
�    It might be worthwhile to think about why you want to be    friends
�    with a person who has so much of a negative impact  on your peace of
�    mind.

    I DON'T WANT TO CONTINUE A FRIENDSHIP WITH HER, but I don't like the
    way it ended.  I want a chance to say goodbye and tell her that I don't
    have feelings of ill will toward her.

    Let me try again.  Until two weeks ago when I got her message I wanted
    to hear from her what kind of relationship that she wanted with me and
    perhaps negotiate something mutually agreeable.  Now I don't want one
    even if she does. I just wanna go shake her hand and say "No hard
    feelings".  I prefer it to end with us shaking hands rather than with
    her (verbally) slapping me in the face.  It would just feel better. 
    Does that make sense to anyone?

    What I'm asking is should I try to go back for the handshake and risk
    getting blasted again or should I just let it drop?  I honestly thought
    that's what I said in the last paragraph of .0.   What's really eerie
    about this is that when I read those responses .2 and .3 it gave me the
    same sort of feeling as when I got her message, which seemed to come
    out of left field. I just don't feel listened to.  Is it me?  And
    that's a *serious* question.

    (.2)
�    How more obvious do they have to be?

    To quote from my basenote, (with added emphasis):

�    She told me she didn't want to be friends anymore, I wrote her a letter
�    telling her honestly and directly how I felt about what happened, and I
�    THOUGHT THAT WAS THE END OF THAT.  A few days later SHE SAID SHE STILL
�    WANTED TO BE FRIENDS

�    [S]he wanted to "terminate (or at least temporarily suspend) our
�    relationship" and asked me to leave her alone.  At that point I FIGURED
�    THERE WASN'T MUCH POINT IN CONTINUING A FRIENDSHIP WITH HER.

�    Before I left, I dropped by to say goodbye to my friend and CALL IT THE
�    END OF THE FRIENDSHIP.

�    [She] made a point of telling me SHE DID NOT MEAN FOR THE BREAK TO BE
�    PERMANENT.  SHE ASKED ME TO LOOK HER UP when I got back and reached out
�    to shake my hand when we parted.

�    She sent back a pleasant sounding message.  Saying SHE WOULD LIKE TO
�    HAVE LUNCH WITH ME SOMETIME IN THE FUTURE, but for now wanted to
�    "maintain a state of peaceful non-communication."  I was puzzled by her
�    message.

    Yes, I agree that it is obvious from her recent message that she
    doesn't want to be my friend.  Prior to that I did *not* think it was
    obvious that she wanted nothing to do with me.  I thought it was
    doubtful and ambiguous, but she was not making herself available to me
    to clarify what she meant and I was still interested in hearing what
    she meant.  I'm curious to know what others think about this.  Do you
    think it was *obvious* before that last message?

    (.7)
�    Why the urge to continue something not too good and that broke couple
�    of years back? Why do you NEED to keep on begging for friendship with
�    her?

    I would have to disagree with your statement that I was begging for her
    friendship.  I wanted to have a friendship with her but not if she
    didn't want it.  It would be good feedback for me if you could tell me
    what made you think I was begging for her friendship because that seems
    to be the general impression that she got.

    (.7)
�    I cannot understand that you need to take a MONTH OF ABSENCE
�    FROM WORK to "heal" from it? Is there something more than friendship? if
�    it is, what is it? I just don't get it.

    I accept that you cannot understand it.  Is there anyone out there who
    can?  I don't have any more friends and don't find it easy to make new
    ones.  If a rich man loses a dollar it doesn't hurt  much.  If a poor
    man loses a dollar it hurts more.  If you lose your last dollar it
    hurts a lot.  And it can cripple you if you believe you don't have the
    skills to earn another dollar.  And I had experienced a serious loss of
    another kind just two months before all this began.

    (.9)
�    It seems you have a real *need* to force this person to be your
�    friend.  Doesn't her claim that you are pushing yourself on her make any
�    impact? If this was sexual I'd consider it harassment when one half of
�    the relationship *refuses* to give up. 

    Interesting feedback.  What was it that made you think I wanted to
    FORCE this person to be my friend and that I REFUSE to give it up?  She
    may have gotten a similar impression and I'm trying to figure out why.

    (.9)
�    I find the author seems to be obsessed with this.

    Also interesting feedback.  It would be helpful for me to know what
    gave you that impression.

    (.9)
�    ...the one in need of help.

    Why does it have to be just one in need of help?  Perhaps we both need
    help.

				       		--anon

    The most useful concept I have developed in my life is that I have
    control of me and if I choose an action or an attitude I can deal with
    the results.
    
    It is wasted energy on our parts to try to invoke a certain response
    from another individual.  Often times by changing our behavior there is
    a change in behavior from those that we associate with...but I consider
    that a bonus.
    
    Often when I hear folks talk about a lack of friendships I am amazed
    that they consider those with friends 'lucky'.
    
    I would suggest that you use your energy to explore the relationship
    and its ups and downs from your behavior.  What do you wish you had
    done differently?  If you had accepted her decision about the wedding
    graciously how would things have been different?
    
    Understanding my own motivations have improved my feelings about myself
    100%.  And I still have friends!  ;-)  

    Friendships seem to be a result of being comfortable with ourselves,
    combined with a lot of acceptance of others.
    
    It is scary to be friends with someone that has a lot of needs, as much
    as I might like to it is hard for me personally to find the physical time
    required.
    
    Being a good friend and having good friends is a skill that you
    develop.  To some it is easy because they observe it in parents and it
    comes naturally but to some it requires some real work, thinking about
    expectations, behaviors and attitudes on our part and how they are
    interpreted by potential friends.  Sometimes it just boils down to
    choice, in a past life I think I chose friends that would cause me
    unhappiness, that would disappoint me.  I bestowed favors on people and
    at a certain point in time I looked for my reward.  I was continually
    disappointed and clearly it wasn't my fault because....
    
    When we expect nothing and get something the 'reward' is far better!
    

    Re .12, very well put!  I too have learned that I get better results
    when I, as it's expressed in a 12-step program, put down the magnifying 
    glass, and pick up the mirror.
    
    Anon., you seem to be seeking self-understanding as well as attempting
    to understand where others come from.  Communication is indeed tricky,
    what's that old line?  Something like: "I know you believe you
    understand what is you think you heard me say, but do you know that
    what I meant by it was not what you heard?"  Sometimes I wonder how
    humanity every manages to communicate beyond the please-pass-the-salt
    level.  
    
    Only you can decide what you want in this, or at the end of
    this relationship.  Once you know what you want, only you can choose
    the actions that you think will bring you closest to it.  But you
    can't, as has been said, control the other person's actions or
    reactions, so what you want *might*, *in this case*, be impossible to 
    achieve.  
    
    Good luck to you, and may friendship be yours to give and receive.
    
    aq
       
                                      

    
    Dear, Anon.
    
    I found when I read your story that I identified with a lot of what you
    described.  I was remembering one longterm relationship that I was in
    that ended very badly and (as I saw it then) very abruptly.  She had
    changed her tune, lied to me and about me, and even though I knew it
    was over between us, I wanted to have a cleaner ending.  I wanted to
    hear "the truth."  I wanted to say goodbye.  I wanted to know what
    happened.  I thought I needed those things to be able to go on with my
    life and put this relationship in a proper perspective.  So I stayed
    much longer than I should have.  And I was injured, but still I stayed.
    In the end, I finally left much more wounded than I would have been if
    I'd left when I knew it was over, and... I still didn't have the
    answers or the closure I wanted.
    
    I think I can understand the need you describe to say goodbye, to shake
    hands and say, "no hard feelings," but it really looks to me like this
    other person cannot and will not do that.  I think the time away was a
    good idea, and I'm glad you could take it.  But it looks to me like she
    is not in the same place as you.  She's unwilling or unable to do the
    closure that you want to do and/or she's already done it for herself.
    I think you really need to try to let go of her and do the work of
    ending, of saying goodbye by yourself.  I think someone in EAP might be
    able to help you find some resources for processing this end (books,
    films, or maybe a therapist).  It's hard to do this work even when the
    other person working at it with you, but it's harder alone.  But you
    can do it.  You can accept that this friendship has ended even if she
    doesn't spend time processing that with you.  I encourage you to
    try to be a friend to yourself and to spend time thinking about what
    you need to do to heal from this.  Maybe a good cry in a quiet, safe
    place would be a good start?
    
    Good luck and take care,
    
    Justine

Hi Anon,

I have found that very few people actually understand a truly trusting, loyal,
bonding friendship.  Perhaps this is why some noters have been quick to tell
you just to forget it, and others are implying an underlying sexual nature to
your feelings.

IMO, you are not crazy - far from it.  Endings/closures are tremendously
important parts of relationships.  There is nothing at all wrong with your
wanting a "decent closure."

You have asked for some feedback in certain areas, and I will share my thoughts
with you based on what I know.  

The reason that anyone would perceive you "begging" for the friendship or say
it was obvious your fiend didn't want one, is that you subjected yourself to
your fiend's abuse more times than most of us would tolerate.  From that
perspective, yes it was obvious before the fact.  I can only say that it very
much looks to me like your friend was an abuser and that you were the abused.
I wouldn't attempt to know why and I could be way off base, but that's just
what it looks like to me.

I have no idea what you do with this situation.  On the one hand, you have a
great need for amicable closure.  On the other hand, you will surely get more
abuse if you seek that closure.

I guess you have to decide whether any kind of closure is better than no
closure at all.

I am sorry your friendship did not work - IMO, only those who have experienced
a truly compelling friendship can understand how devasting the loss can be.  I
hope you keep your heart open to other friendships.

Barb

blow it off, and the past four years of the friendship.

you've done nothing wrong...

This person is as insecure as an "only child" in first grade.  

Also, quite possibly taking great joy with running you through the
ringer..

    
    re basnoter:
    
    Perhaps you could write her a gentle letter?  Then it'll be off
    of you to her.  I don't recommend or not recommend this, just an
    idea.
    
    But I urge you to improve your chances for meeting more friends!
    A few concrete suggestions which may or may not coincide with your
    interests, but you get the gist: join an outing club, join a ski
    house, come to womannotes parties or one of the FWO events
    (2 book discussion groups), take a class (something fun perhaps),
    enroll in a degree program (if you're inclined that way), volunteer
    for something you find worthwhile or to do something you like
    (look in VOLUNTEER notes), join a professional organization, ...
    
    You mention you're married, perhaps you can find one of these
    suggestions that you and your spouse both like.
    

>    (.2)
>�    I don't understand why you want to be friends with this person.

>    I DON'T WANT TO CONTINUE A FRIENDSHIP WITH HER, but I don't like the
>    way it ended.  I want a chance to say goodbye and tell her that I don't
>    have feelings of ill will toward her.

    The tone and direction of .0 seemed to me that you did still want to
    be friends. This is because of your repeated attempts to jump start the
    relationship and apparent need to talk to this person. I understand
    being unhappy with the way the relationship ended but these attemps
    to "say goodbye" I don't understand. It's not something I would want
    to do myself nor would I want someone else to do if I were in the other
    persons shoes. I'm sure you mean well by it but it seems mean spirited
    to me. A sort of "well even though you don't want to be friends I'm
    saying good bye to show you that it's all your fault." I'm sure you
    don't mean for that to be the message but that may be the message 
    the other person is getting give the history of misscommunication
    between you. Just letting go seems, to me at least, to be the better
    more healthy thing to do. You are free to reject this of course. 

>    What I'm asking is should I try to go back for the handshake and risk
>    getting blasted again or should I just let it drop? 

    Let it drop. Anything else has to great a risk of being interpreted as
    I said above or that you are not ever going to let go of this person.

>	What's really eerie
>    about this is that when I read those responses .2 and .3 it gave me the
>    same sort of feeling as when I got her message, which seemed to come
>    out of left field. I just don't feel listened to.  Is it me?  And
>    that's a *serious* question.

    Serious answer. Yes it's you. The more I think about what you wrote and
    what I wrote the more convinced I am that what I wrote was as obvious
    an answer as could be made. In fact it is and was so obviously the
    right answer that I didn't understand why 5 people didn't say the
    same thing before I replied.

>    Yes, I agree that it is obvious from her recent message that she
>    doesn't want to be my friend.  Prior to that I did *not* think it was
>    obvious that she wanted nothing to do with me.  I thought it was
>    doubtful and ambiguous, but she was not making herself available to me
>    to clarify what she meant and I was still interested in hearing what
>    she meant.  I'm curious to know what others think about this.  Do you
>    think it was *obvious* before that last message?

    Hindsight is 20/20. It may not have been obvious to you while it was
    going on but reading your .0 it seemed pretty obvious from early in the
    note that this person didn't want to be friends. It's easier for
    someone not involved and getting an after the fact summary to come
    to this conclusion though. IMHO.

    
    
    RE: .19
    
    >   The tone and direction of .0 seemed to me that you did still want
    >   to be friends. 
    
    
    I disagree.  I related to the basenote like you wouldn't believe.  In
    fact, if I changed a few of the numbers and a few of the settings, it
    could have been ME writing that note.
    
    Rather, I feel the basenote author has the need to be UNDERSTOOD.  I
    sit here and I think about my broken friendship and I cry because I
    don't understand how she ever got such a rotten impression of who I am.
    I can't understand how we could have shared so much and how she could
    never have really known *ME* at all.
    
    I think the need is not to continue the friendship, but rather to be 
    simply "understood" for who and what she really is....instead of the
    convoluted misconception her "friend" has created of her.
    
    
    Some of us NEED for people to understand us...Many times we try to
    express ourselves one way, but what REALLY comes out is some of the
    stuff we are feeling inside.  
    
    I can be filled with self-hatred inside, and I can write a note in this
    conference and be totally and utterly crushed by opposition.  And I'm
    really beginning to see that it's not so much WHAT I really write, but 
    rather that my self-hatred is mirrored in what I write and people read 
    that self-hatred as being directed at them.  This directly relates to
    my communication limitations outside of "notesland" too.
    
    Basenoter:  Reading your note is like reading about me.  You COULD be
    me (if I didn't know better!).  I'm slowly becoming very aware of me
    and the reason things like your dilemma happen to me.  If you want to
    talk off-line, I'll talk.  Due to certain reasons, I can't discuss my
    similar situation here.....nor can I feel comfortable discussing the
    turmoil it's put me thru, nor my steps toward recovery....But I'm
    willing to talk with you off-line if you'd like to contact me.
    
    
    Take care......Sometimes taking care of OURSELVES has to take
    precidence over taking care of others.  And good luck, the road is not
    easy......it never is.
    
    
    kath

    re: .17 by PELKEY
    
    Not such good advice, IMHO.  Sounds like someone may have given the
    same good intentioned advice to the author's friend.  "You are
    blameless,  she's insecure".  My dad used to call this the "Hooray
    for me, to hell with you" attitude.  IMHO, neither is blameless and
    both are insecure.
    
    Mary

    Okay, this is tough to write, and if I step on any toes here, I'll
    apologize in advance.
    
    I have, on several occasions, been in the position of the "friend"
    described in .0.  I don't think the signals I've sent are anywhere near
    as confusing as she sent, but I can see that they might have seemed so. 
    
    When two people have *any* relationship, there is almost always some
    difference as to how much commitment each is willing to devote to
    maintaining that relationship.  Generally, I find the person who wants
    to be less close is the one who comes to control the relationship. 
    The person wanting more contact, more intimacy, takes what they can
    get, always hoping for more.  If s/he tries for more (tries to get what
    s/he wants and needs), s/he gets less; the other is comfortable
    withdrawing further, and does so.  The magnitude of the difference in
    desire dictates the magnitude of the resulting imbalance in power.
    
    With lovers, this is easy and natural to notice and recognize (I find). 
    With friends, especially intimate friends, I don't think it's as easy
    and natural to explore the relationship and what each person wants. 
    This is especially true if one person does not want a very deep
    relationship; that person is less and less willing to explore the
    relationship at all.  
    
    Personally, I reserve that sort of exploration only for my very most
    intimate friends: I think there have been two friends in my life where
    we regularly and comfortably talked about our relationship and how much
    we need each other (and one of them, we both had to be very, very drunk
    to discuss it).  Peversely, I have had such discussions with many - not
    most - of my lovers.
    
    When that imbalance exists and I am the reluctant person, I pull away. 
    Any move closer from my sort-of friend feels suffocating and I pull
    away more vehemently.  This will either result in more distance
    (because the other recognizes what I'm doing and adjusts to a distance
    with which I can be comfortable and friendly) or A LOT more distance
    (because the other refuses to adjust and I will cut off all ties
    completely).
    
    There is a lot of room for extreme misunderstanding there; my needs to
    withdraw are as immediate, irrational, and vehement as the other's
    needs for more intimacy.  Crazy, awful things are said and done, and
    both are left with a bad taste in the mouth.  After enough pain is
    exchanged, both are happy to end, cease, desist the relationship
    altogether.
    
    At that point, I do not want "clarification" or goodbyes.  I have
    started wanting a simple, friendly withdrawal; even the clarification
    itself is too much by the time this has all passed.  I don't want the
    other person to have a nasty life - just one which never, ever
    coincides with mine again.
    
    To .0, your need for closure is probably as horrible to her as her need
    not to have that kind of contact is to you.  If she's like me, she
    *may* give you a "goodbye" and talk about the relationship after a few
    years have passed, but she'd rather not.  Mutually ignoring each
    other's presence for a loooong time will make it posible for her
    someday to resume normal "distant co-worker" relations, but I wouldn't
    hold my breath.  
    
    Lee

    
    My situation is a little bit like yours.
    
    After having spent a lot of effort, after some hopes and
    disappointments here is my advice:
    
    a) Some people like to hurt others (although they don't know
       they like it) because they don't feel comfortable with
       themselves. These unsolved problems, this feeling of
       discomfort (?) leads to harsh and unfair reactions which
       hurt a lot.
    
      I am quite sure that she can not handle her own feelings
      and this is the reason for such different reactions.
    
    b) Some people hide their sympathy. Perhaps she likes you
       too much or in a way she doesn't know how to handle
       these feelings.
    
    c) Those kind of people need distance. As long as you insist
       to see her she will insist to stay away from you.
       But if she really likes you she will call you when
       you don't expect it - perhaps
    
    BUT: don't you feel like a toy ?? I often felt like this.
         One day she likes you, the other day you are not welcome 
         and she tells you she wants to be alone and perhaps in
         future she wants to continue the relationship.
    
    After a relationship with similar reactions and hoping to be
    more mature now I only can ask you if you want to be someone
    who is dependent from HER wishes and her behaviour.
    
    You don't have to be glad when she wants to meet you as long
    as she behaves like this. SHE must be glad if you want her
    to be YOUR friend. And if she is not involved in the relationship
    like you are, forget it.
    
    Your spent energy could be more valueable in another relationship,
    I think - although I know it's very difficult to get distance 
    to a person you love - don't call her anymore, wait until she
    calls you. And if not, this is an experience, use this experience
    to get involved into a relationship where the other person is 
    as interested in you as you are in her/him !!!
    
    Those kind of people enjoy being someone who is No. one and
    if you want to see this person they say NO and feel mighty.
    
    I think your sympathy for her is 150 % and her sympathy for you
    is 12 %. And you deserve a better friend ...
    
    Just my thoughts, after some painful years of similar relationship ...

    Lee, thanks for putting into words my experiences that I have been
    unable to verbalize.  I think it's true, and the larger the initial
    power (interest) imbalance, the faster and more brutal the
    seperation.
    
    I wish I knew a way to break that cycle, because it has hurt me
    many times.  Especially as the person in the down-side of the power
    differential (ie: the one with the greater need for intimacy),
    how can you keep the other person from pulling back?  *sigh*
    
    I think you have campture the essence of the situation as *I* see it.
    
    D!

    
    the combination of .20 and .22 is extremely interesting. thanks,
    kath and lee
    

To .0 - you asked where did I get my impressions when you felt you'd said
something other than what I saw. I suppose it's because I perceived a certain
tone to your note. What can I say, I'm an ENFP, I read impressions not literal
words, and yours said obsession to me. I've been around long enough to know that
more often than not the "feel" of what is said frequently carries more weight
than the actual words. Yes, I know all you logical, literal types will be just
appallled at this but it has worked for me more often than not correctly.

As I read the comments of others who have given their views from both sides of
the issue I see an even greater impression of obsession. Each side fighting to
maintain their integrity in a battle of feelings. Each with a different view of
final closure. 

To play the devil's advocate for the "friend". I can almost see this woman as
you say "it's over, you're free of me" as she decides it's then safe to mouth
a kindness. To try and soften the blow by the politeness of saying "maybe later"
You weren't supposed to take it seriously. It's like a guy saying he'll call,
as likely as not it's just a social conversation ender, not a commitment. liesl

re .0

The situation here is most interesting.  You have the best intuition and 
sensitivity anyone can have.  You knew all along what it was and was to come, 
but refused to see it.  You told us the wedding incident, and you were right 
that incident was most characteristic.  Also, I don't think your poem 
expressed what you think it expressed, but I also think it expressed
what you may have felt.  Also your friend's response definitely did not come
from left field and neither were any of the noters who responded to you. 
I don't think you need our insight or advice.  You have them already.
You just need to listen to yourself more carefully.  Perhaps one thing you
can do first is to re-read your own .0 and .11 very carefully and understand 
what those two notes really say. 

Best of luck.

Eugene
                               

    The following response is from the author of the basenote.
    
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    Thanks everyone for your responses.  I really feel supported and that's
    what I needed.  You people are wonderful!  Hugs to all who like 'em.

    re: .22 

    Lee,

    I don't know whose toes you were afraid of stepping on, but you
    certainly didn't step on mine.  My model of control and intimacy in
    relationships is *exactly* what you wrote, I couldn't have expressed it
    better myself. (But then I'm known to have a problem expressing myself
    :-)

    I sensed she was the less committed and I consciously tried to follow
    the lead of her "signals".  After the wedding conflict died down, I
    backed off to a level that I thought she felt comfortable with based on
    her "signals".  I even made a point of telling her directly that if she
    thought I was hanging around too much to tell me to back off.  She said
    okay, she would.

    Just prior to the breakup she was sending signals indicating everything
    was cool.  She was initiating contact with me as well as vice versa. 
    When I asked for her support on a personal matter, and expressed that I
    was uncomfortable interrupting her work, she said "Friendship comes
    first".

    I just don't get it.  From my point of view, it seems to have happened
    suddenly.  If she didn't enjoy drinking with me, why did she accept my
    invitation?  I didn't twist her arm.  In fact when Joe decided not to
    go with us, I asked her if she still wanted to go.  Second chance to
    turn me down, she didn't.  And if she didn't want me around when she
    was with her other friends, why did *she* invite Joe to join us?   I
    didn't want her to "spill her guts" to me, she just did it.  I wasn't
    asking for that kind of intimacy, I just wanted to talk, joke, drink,
    and have fun.  Somehow something just does not add up.  You know I
    mean?

    And if she was the less committed one, why did she think *I* was
    controlling? I thought she was controlling, but that didn't bother me. 
    I was willing to give her the space she needed.  Is my ability to read
    her "signals" totally impaired or does she have two personalities?

    I want to understand her point of view, but I guess I'll really never
    know what happened.  I want to view this as a learning experience, but
    I can't figure out what the lesson is.

    Re: .26

    Maybe she's an ENFP, I'm an ISTJ although the S and T have become
    borderline N and F, as I've been going through a lot of changes.

    Re: .23  don't you feel like a toy?

    Yes, a yo-yo to be more specific.

    I've cut the string for myself; I know we can't be friends, but I don't
    want to be enemies.  Just wish I knew what she wanted.  Sigh.........

				    		--anon

    
    
    
    I've barely been able to get on the net this week, but I just have to
    make one comment....
    
    
>    I just don't get it.  From my point of view, it seems to have happened
>    suddenly.  If she didn't enjoy drinking with me, why did she accept my
>    invitation?  I didn't twist her arm.  In fact when Joe decided not to
>    go with us, I asked her if she still wanted to go. 
    
    I'm going thru this same sort of thing with a guy that I'm (attempting)
    to date.
    
    When I ask him if he wants to do something, he most always says yes. 
    He NEVER, however, asks me if I want to do something.   I give him all
    chances to get out of dates and such, but you know what I really feel
    the problem with him is...
    
    ....he doesn't really want to see me, but he is totally incapable of 
    saying what he really feels and just saying "No."  He once told me, in
    fact, that instead of just telling someone that he doesn't want to be
    around them, he just acts exceedingly boring all the time he's with
    that person, so that person will think he's a dud and THEY will finally
    go away.
    
    I'm beginning to find out that some people are just incapable of saying
    what they are really feeling and it seems to usually ALWAYS leaves the 
    other person feeling like they are hanging/not knowing what's going
    on...
    
    I need CLOSURE in my life, and it's really hard dealing with people who
    are unable to provide that closure by saying what's going on in their
    head.
    
    Anyway.....I've got a TON of mail messages to answer.
    
    kath

Anon

>    I've cut the string for myself; I know we can't be friends, but I don't
>    want to be enemies.  Just wish I knew what she wanted.  Sigh.........

A few thoughts. Now don't hit me but ... you haven't cut the string.
Saying "Just wish I knew ..." means you are still IN the situation.
If the line read "Just wish I knew what happened," then it would
be a matter of past tense ... but your statement is present tense.

Now I'm going to make a goofy-sounding suggestion that I believe
worthwhile.  Go to a private place with a tape recorder and tell
the story.  Then listen to yourself tell the story.  Right now,
your mind is stuck in this Moebius loop of a puzzle and you can't
get out.  I believe hearing the story will get you some of all of
the way out. (Many years ago I got "stuck in a story" and just tried
the tape recorder thing out of the blue, and it "cured" me. I say
"cured" because I was beginning to feel like the Ancient Mariner
being haunted by a story.) 

Since that time, I've read about other people having the same
experience with tape recorders.

You seem like a very nice person.  Good luck to you.

I know this is off the topic... but can someone explain what the following 
means?  I'm totally lost...

. 28 Maybe she's an ENFP, I'm an ISTJ although the S and T have become
    borderline N and F, as I've been going through a lot of changes.




I've just started reading WOMANNOTES having been pointed here from HR...




Xtine

    I gather these are personality type indicators from the Myers-Briggs
    personality evaluation, which is given in Note 345.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    re: .30
    
    Thanks for the tape recorder suggestion.  I've got a story I want to
    try that with!  I'd like to write a new ending.
    
    CQ

    The following response is from the author of the basenote.

    (her subject line on the mail message, btw, read "I hope this justifies
    the existence of valuing differences notesfiles.  It does for me."   I
    think it does for everybody. :-)
    
    						=maggie

    ===================================================================


    Speaking of writing a new ending.  I have the closure I needed now.

    Someone reading this notes file recognised the situation and tipped off
    my friend, who decided to contact me to talk about it.  It was pretty
    scary for both of us, but we talked for almost 7 hours and got some
    really good communication going.  There had been an awful lot of
    misunderstandings and misinterpretations on both sides over the past
    couple years, but we each got a chance to express our feelings and
    point of view, and to listen to the other point of view.  A *lot* of
    healing took place.  My friend and I recognised that we have both done
    a lot of growing and changing.  I'm not the person she thought I was,
    nor is she the person I thought she was.

    It took a lot of courage on both parts to do this, but she's a very
    brave and strong person and so am I (even if I do say so myself).  I
    feel sooooo good about her and about myself.  Our "old" friendship is
    over, but we both decided to leave the door open for the possibility of
    a "new" and different one.  Anyway, for me the fear is gone and I hope
    it is for her, too.  I didn't get the handshake I wanted, but instead,
    she and I had a good long hug. :-)

    Never under estimate the value of =wn=.  Thanks.

					--anon

    Aaaahhh...  That really felt GOOD.  Thanks for sharing that wonderful
    denouement.
    
        Cheers to all, Peace, and Love,
        Dan
        who_was_WAY_wrong_in_557.10_and_is_GLAD!!!  :-)

    
    
    
    RE: .34
    
    
    I'm glad to hear that you've received the kind of closure you wanted.
    That's really important sometimes to have that to be able to put
    everything into perspective.
    
    I think sometimes the hardest thing EVER to deal with is to NOT have
    that sort of closure, and just having to continue on with your life.
    
    Good luck.  I hope everything comes out for the best in your
    "friendship."
    
    Take care.
    
    kath