Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Success :== "being able to sleep well EVERY night"
    
    It isn't money, or power, or freedom, by themselves.  To me, it's your
    personal "mixture" of all of these that makes *you* successful, in
    *your* mind.  What floats my boat might not float yours ....   8^)
    
    Jerry

    Success is in the eyes of the beholder... my view of success might
    totally different from others.  Money is nothing by itself, power does
    not exist without money, freedom without power or money is hard to find
    because we need money for our personal needs (nourishment, clothes,
    etc) so, as Jerry said, we need all that plus PEACE OF MIND, SELF
    STEEM, HONESTY, and SENSE OF HUMOR to fully enjoy "SUCCESS". A
    successful person is not necessarily rich, or anarchist, or religious,
    but might have a bit of all... happiness plays a big part into success
    and might even intermingle! of course this is my humble opinion... 

    Ditto the first two.  Each person usually has their own ideal
    of what they consider to be a success.  Some people define 
    their successes in terms of what they've accomplished/gained 
    in matierial goods, others use more "spiritual" type of measurement.
    Basically, it comes down, IMO to keeping your peace of mind and
    knowing you have chosen the right path for you.
    
    Christine
    

    Very simple: success=happiness.  If you aren't happy, you aren't
    successful. If you are happy, you are successful.  If what it takes to
    make you happy is lots of money, then success means lots of money; if
    what it takes is a big family, or a job you enjoy, or devoting your
    life to God, then those are the measures of success.  But it all comes
    back to happiness.
    
    
    D! who is always sucessful in whatever she does, regardless of how well 
       she does them, because she is always happy

    Success is the serenity to accept what I cannot change, the courage to
    change what I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.
    
    Lynn

    Success is respect, it's when people come to you for your opinion in
    your areas of expertise, it's when you have the rank, title, and money
    that are appropriate for your expertise.....but that's all got to do
    with work.
    
    Success as a human being is the feeing that you've done your life as
    well as you could, you make decisions toward the good side of karma,
    you help people when and where you can, you have friends that care
    about you and trust you and respect you, and you can look forward to
    each day and the wonders it will bring, even if they're little ones...
    
    -Jody
    

    Success is being at peace...with yourself, with your family, with your
    friends, with your lovers, and with those people around who are
    different than you are.
    
    Jill
    
    

    My mom told me, after my Dad's 40th high school reunion (I think), that
    she was intrigued by how much the definition of "success" had changed
    among that group of men over the years.  And how, as the definitions
    had broadened and the men had become more accepting of their choices,
    how more and more of them had turned up at the reunions.  Early on,
    their definitions had dealt with the dollars they earned and their
    relative position within the work world's hierarchy.  Later, they
    started to look at the "happiness" and "contributing" measures of
    success.
    
    For me, success comes in doing what I do well.  In being a force for
    positive viewpoints and optimistic expectations.  In encouraging
    myself and others to make the most of their abilities and talents.  In
    embracing the wonder and diversity of us all, and in the world around
    us.
    
    Alison  

    Success is feeling that "thrum" of satisfaction underlying your
    every feeling and thought, behind your every deed and rest from
    a deed.
    
    Others may call this "happiness" or "being at peace".  That's fine;
    we've said the same thing.  I haven't used those terms (this time)
    because for me for myself, the term "happiness" seems to refer to
    something more, um, superficial than what I mean, and the term 
    "being at peace" sounds too passive.
    
    						Ann B.

    >Success is feeling that "thrum" of satisfaction underlying your every
    >feeling and thought, behind your every deed and rest from a deed.
     
    Thrum.  Yeah, I like that.  That's what I meant by happiness.
    
    ----
    
    My best friend has a slightly different perspective.  Her goal for her
    life (and the measure by which she judges its success) is this: to
    experience in life constant contentness, punctuated by frequent periods
    of ecstacy.
    
    mere happiness isn't enough, she must have experiences she calls
    "ecstatic".  This doesn't mean just physical ecstacy, like sex or
    something, but experiences so amazing and mindboggling that they are
    akin to an "emotional orgasm".  From eatting the most incredibly
    chocolate cake she's ever tasted, to the feeling of free-fall when you
    jump out of a plane, to falling in love, etc.
    
    Her goal is a variation on mine (or mine on hers) which is...the
    measure of the successfulness of my life is how many things i can look
    back on and say "Damn, I'm glad I did that!"
    
    Her philosophy, and mine, tie into the "touchstone" which says "You
    will never regret the things you *did* do so much as you will regret
    the ones you didn't."
    
    D!

RE:
    
>    My best friend has a slightly different perspective.  Her goal for her
>    life (and the measure by which she judges its success) is this: to
>    experience in life constant contentness, punctuated by frequent periods
>    of ecstacy.
>
>    mere happiness isn't enough, she must have experiences she calls
>    "ecstatic".  This doesn't mean just physical ecstacy, like sex or
>    something, but experiences so amazing and mindboggling that they are
>    akin to an "emotional orgasm".  From eatting the most incredibly
>    chocolate cake she's ever tasted, to the feeling of free-fall when you
>    jump out of a plane, to falling in love, etc.
    
I'll take a stab at an alternate view.  For me, it is important to be
centered and aware no matter what the external cirmunstances are.  So
if the situation has a happy feeling with it, then that's fine.  If
the situation has a sad, or angry feeling, then that's fine too.  My
faith is that in cultivating just this present moment, then all the
other stuff will take care of itself.  That means knowing what to do,
how to act, how to respond to each moment with compassion for all.  It
is a fairly difficult thing in my experience.  But when it happens, it
is a wonderful thing.

I'm too old different experience that is out there.  When does it end?  One can
spend one's whole life pursuing pleasure but it can not always be a
pleasureable feeling or circumstances, can it?  I mean, there is
always suffering, old age, and death awaiting us.

So, a different question is what can I contribute???  That is for me
the interesting question.  And when one has a great thrill or great
pleasure, doesn't the mind want to hold on it, to want to capture and
keep it?  And then you are unhappy when the expereince is no longer
there?  Sure, I'll take what comes my way, I like pleasure but some of
the most important things I've learned have come out of so-called
negitive situations.  Every moment has very important message for us
in my view.  Only we're not really listening most of the time.

Nowadays I am the most "happy" when being of service to others and
not when seeking to satisfy my own self-centered desires.  Now the 5%
of the time when I can actually do this feels great but what about the
other 95% of time when I'm being a dink or a pain to someone else?

Of course, now I want to capture this feeling all the time so I am
unhappy when I can not be of service all the time!!!  ;-)  In never
ends, does it, this mind that is always chasing after things, seeking
securuty, permanance, safetly, unchanging pleasure and avoiding "bad"
feelings?  Probally I need to throw away this idea of being of service
and just do it!
 
What is success?  A pre-conceived idea about how I SHOULD be?  And
when I compare myself with this idea, I get a happy feeling and when I
compare and I don't measure up, an unhappy feeling arises?  I'd like
to throw it all out!  All ideas about what should be?  In awareness of
this very moment, what to do is clear!!!  No need for an
post-experiencal idea about it!  And aren't be trained from an early
age with all kinds of ideas about what sucess is?  And it's different
for men and women, isn't it?  For men, its success, power, and status,
sexual power and all kinds of things?  On the side, we are somehow
also supposed to be a "good person".   How that is possible with all
these other goals in not clear to me.   Now people reject the standard
view of success and make up different systems.  The hippie culture has
a different one, different "alternate" religions have different ones,
different subcultures, political communities, everyone has a different
idea ob it.  But I think underneath all this stuff, we all know what
to do and we don't even have to think about it or have a lot of ideas
about it.  For me, getting in this mode is a question of queiting down
the mind, there are other methods.  So, I wish everyone well in
finding out their job in life is.  

john

    A thought...
    
    John points out that one cannot have happiness all the time - that
    sadness and hurt exist.  This is true.  And this may seem very bizarre,
    but I get happiness from unhappiness...
    
    Wait, wait, it isn't emotional masochism...or, maybe it is, in the
    sense of the word I use.  I enjoy *strength* of emotion - make me happy
    or make me sad, just don't make me bored.  I am most *me* when I feel
    *alive* - emotion makes me feel alive, regardless of the exact nature
    of the emotion.
    
    So while I prefer pleasure to pain, I prefer pain to neutrality.  In
    the end, I don't regret experiences that cause me pain...I regret a
    lack of experiences that cause me nothing.
    
    I think life is a sine wave...there are ups and downs.  You can vary
    the frequency and the amplitude, but in the end, it always averages to
    zero.  I like my life the best when it has a high frequency and a high
    amplitude.
    
    D!

    D!
    
    I agree with you.  I very much enjoy feeling the full range of
    emotions.  I have often taken comfort in my pain.  But never 
    really understood why, or was able to either admit or explain it.
    
    If you listen to the Carly Simon song Give Me All Night, it touches
    upon that concept. There's a line that says something like "And if
    I cry, my tears'll fill a waterfall"
    
    That's me!
    
    
    Kim

    D!
    
    I agree with you, and what you siad reminded me of a conversation I
    had with a friend of mine a few years ago.  I was arguing for a "wavy"
    life as opposed to an "even" life, and my friend prefered the "even". 
    I said she was crazy - that's too boring.  Pain is not enjoyable
    to me at the time (even though I am "alive" with emotion) but it
    makes the good times even better.
    
    Laf
    

    Re: Last few
    
    I agree too!  In my philosophy pleasure is born from pain, peace is
    born from conflict and life is born from death.  IMO you can't truly
    experience one without the other.
    
    Mary

    
    really?
    gee, i'm as much of a fan of true, intense emotion as the next guy.
    but i'm not sure i'd elevate that to a philosophy of 'pleasure is
    born from pain' etc. i'm inclined to think that it's quite possible
    to come to serenity without going by way of conflict.
    

    It's hard to find great blues singers who have never had any reason
    to sing the blues.
    
    My most interesting friends are those who have graduated with me; from
    the school of hard knocks. Live and learn. I don't find that plastic 
    bubbles, although warm and lovely, create an enviromnent of interesting 
    conversation and depth of spirit.
    
    Kate
    

    re .16, I agree with you Joe.  I'd rather keep my intense emotions on
    the happy side.
    
    I never really wanted to sing the blues anyway. :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  I also can't help but wonder if people who think pain, misery and
    unhappiness is necessary for a full life, have ever really experienced
    it....  Just a thought....  
    

    re .19, to me, that's just making the best of things, something we
    should all do in order to remain happy, sane people.  I agree that we
    are all the sum of our experiences (as a friend mentioned to me
    recently in a mail conversation), and I don't regret certain possible
    mistakes I may have made, or negative experiences because of this. 
    But, I still wouldn't go so far as to say that I hope for future pain
    so that future happiness will be all the more sweet!  Of course, that
    doesn't mean that I won't take any chances either.
    
    I realize that I have known some wonderful people who may have had
    certain negative experiences that contributed to making them be the
    people they are today.  But, there are also serial killers and mass
    murderers and child abusers who had previous negative experiences, as
    well.  I don't think we can be assured that just because someone feels
    pain, or experiences tragedy that they will be a better person because
    of it.  I would still rather a world where people didn't have to suffer
    (in the supposed hope that they may turn out to be better people in the
    long run).
    
    Lorna
    

    When I say I prefer a "wavy" life, (i.e. with pain) I am talking about
    pain that come from living..but not real tragedy caused by a murderer
    etc.  I suppose I should qualify that by saying that I think "pain" is
    necessary to enjoy the good times.  NOT that painful times should be as
    frequent as good time (or neutral ones either), just there enough to
    remind us to be thankful for the good ones....
    
    You never really appreciate good health until you lose it for a while!
    
    Laf
    

    Re:20
    
    I don't hope for future pain, but when pain comes my way, as I know it
    will, I view it as an opportunity for growth as opposed to a time for
    regrets.  I don't wish for storms, but when they come I am strengthened
    by weathering the storm and not letting it batter me about.  When the
    storm is over, I can enjoy the sunshine better without having to spend
    time licking my wounds after being battered by the storm.  In fact,
    I consider this to be one of the most important things I've learned in
    life so far, because I didn't used to have this attitude.  I wasted a
    lot of time licking my wounds.
    
    Mary

    To clarify...
    
    My view on life pain wrt success is not (as other people have stated)
    that you must have pain to appreciate pleasure, or the greater the pain
    you live through, the more you appreciate the pleasure...
    
    Rather, I feel that for every pleasure there is a pain. That is not
    something good, nor bad...it just is, like gravity and taxes.  One can
    hope for pleasure or hope for pain to your hearts content, but the law
    of the sine wave is unalterable.
    
    My point is that I (and I have no idea if other people experience life
    this way) enjoy all strong emotions, whether "negative" (pain) or
    "positive" (pleasure).  I prefer pleasure, don't get me wrong.  But the
    truth is (I believe) that each pleasure comes with pain, and that life
    becomes much better if you can learn to enjoy the pain, too.
    
    I don't believe that my pain makes my pleasure "more" pleasureable...in
    fact, it might even make it less, with the awareness of possible
    impending pain.
    
    (As an example of taking "pleasure" from pain - ever had a really good
    cry?  I mean, the kind you throw your whole self into, where you cry
    from your gut and soul?  You are crying because you are in pain...but
    just the act of crying, of the sheer *strength* of your emotion is
    somehow uplifiting.  Then again, maybe I'm the only one who has
    experienced this.)
    
    D!

    This is a great topic! (Although it may have gotten slightly off topic)
    I love hearing different perspectives on how people experience their
    emotions.
    
    I guess I can't identify with D! on actually enjoying a good cry.  I
    never enjoy the pain, it really does hurt.   For a good part of my life
    I experienced mostly pain or non pain.  I found it difficult to
    actually experience pleasure with the same intensity as I experienced
    pain.  I think this is called anhedonia.  It may sound odd to some, but
    that's how I experienced my emotions.  I found I was able to experience
    higher intensity of pleasure by changing my attitude about pain.
    
    I guess you could say my sine wave had dropped below the x-axis and I
    had to bring it up to where the peaks are positive and the valleys are
    negative.
    
    Mary
    

Well, I am going to try a different tack on the pain/pleasure thing
that may encompass all the viewpoints.

In my view, there's very likely going to be pain, suffering, boredom.
anger, greed, desire, and sadness in your life.  And also there will
be pleasure, happiness, contentedness, joy.  You can't get out of the
pain part because we all get our share (if only on the physical
level).   I try to focus on my relationship with these different
things.  My faith is that in examining my relationships with these
different feelings and really being with these things, that the right
action will be apparent on whether to change my situation or not.  In
my experience, I (and others) spend a lot of time running away from
the so-called bad things (by denial or projection for example) and
trying to hold on to and capture the so-called good experiences (which
doesn't seem to work either).  What I'm interested in an acceptance
(in the sense of not running away from) of every moment, every
situation and the faith is that what to do will (or not to do) will
become apparent.

I think this is what so-called centerness is all about.  Have you seen
people with this quality?   They seem to experience their emotions
directly but they don't make a big problem out of them.  I think that
the problem comes in when we analyze, theorize, and generally try to
outthink our current situation.  What has been helpful to me to is
take a deep breath and just experience what is happening before trying
to force my thoughts on the present situation and reality.

So, anyways, I try to examine my relationships with these emotions.
Hopefully, pain is OK, pleasure is OK, boredom is OK and what to do
becomes clear when there is some spaciousness in the mind for the
possibilities in things before I get all carried away in my thoughts
which have a tendency to trigger more emotions etc and pretty soon I'm
reacting from habit.   Do you know what I mean?  It's like you may as
well be watching yourself do things, there is no possibility of a new
and fresh response which this moment, which is totally different and
unique from all others, may offer.

It's interesting to me to try this principle out and see it in action.
It's really wonderful to see what can happen when there is space to do
things freshly.  When reactions are programmed in so strong, you can
see what happens, no?  People get locked into conflicts and can't
escape.  There is no room for escape because thought and feelings are
intertwined in a hard mass.  So, one sentance and the reaction  has
already formed in the mind and the response seems automatic.  But if
it is slowed down, then maybe there is, in fact, room from something
new.

Anyways,  I guess we've gotten way off the topic of success.  Here's
an interesting question I like to ask myself.  How much of what I view
of success is conditioning that I've gotten (like make good money, be
secure, get married, have kids) and how much is really what comes from
my own direction and intuitive sense of what needs to be done.  I
guess not everyone is interested in such things and accepts the social
norms but I find it to be quite interesting and want to start from
scratch, to examine everything and find out what is left when the
onion of social conditioning is peeled off.

john

    re: .25
    
    It sounds like you described pain avoidance, pleasure seeking and
    centeredness, but I think there is something else you may have
    overlooked -- passivity.  A defeated state of inactivity where pleasure
    is not sought nor is pain avoided.  Funny thing is, pain finds you
    whether you look for it or not.  Pleasure doesn't usually work that
    way.
    
    Mary

    The Zen view (and one that I share) is that without darkness there is
    no light, withought evil there can be no good, and that in any light
    there is a little darkness. That is the reason that the Yin-yang is
    dual dark and light, and the dark has a spot of light in it, and the
    light has a spot of dark in it.
    
    	"Heaven is a place where nothing ever happens."
    
    				The Talking Heads
    
    	-- Charles

	(I am still here - for now anyway)

	This discussion about pain and pleasure, joy and sadness and
	good and evil, reminds me that most of western thought and for
	that matter some of eastern throught is wrapped up in the 
	concept of a dichotomy of entities.  That is that there are
	ones and zeros - and that is all.  Yes I know that we all will	
	acknowledge the grey areas but we really don't think that way.
	We think up or down or right or left or male or female.

	Where in truth we all know that this is not so, that infact
	the grey areas are the most interesting and the most plentiful,
	it is not clear to me why we continue to use the dichotomy as
	the basis.

	I am going to take John's idea about centerness one step further
	and speak from my experience.

	To me centerness is living, be-ing, knowing that one is in
	the grey area and that only rarely does one get to be at a point
	of clarity.  One should cherish those rare moments, for soon one
	is back into the greys again.  Then one is able to recognize
	that one is part of the process and not the purpose of the 
	process.  This is centerness.

	On a lighter topic: about taking the package or not, I am looking
	at all my options, I am evaluating everthing, I am doing research
	(you know all the up front work) and when it comes time to decide
	I will flip a coin (and will keep flipping it until I get the
	answer I want).

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Trust in the goddess is trust in myself
			Only I know what is best for me

    Congratulations! eagles!  It takes a great deal of skill to shoot well,
    and even more love to do it for a loss!  (*8
    
    E Grace

    
    re:.28
    yes, peggy! it's this overwhelming 'either or' mentality that makes
    me suspicious.
    

    Way to go, Eagles!
    
    And what a great flick to choose to go see....
    
    -Jody
    

    re .32...
    
    Does 2nd place count as success too?  :)
    
    

    re .34
    
    Sure, if that achievement is a success for *you*.  (If you had never
    placed before, and then achieved 2nd place, that would be quite an
    accomplishment.)
    
    It all depends on how you measure success.  
    
    
    Judi
    

    Getting my first novel published.
    
    And then the second one.
    
    And then having someone actually *buy* it!
    
    --bonnie

    Not the whole story?  You mean it's a trilogy?!
    
    							Ann B. :-)

    
    re .37:
    
    Whoa, Bonnie!  Good stuff!  Congrats.
    

But what's it called so we'll know what to look for??? liesl

    It ain't published yet, so don't hold your breath.  Be assured
    that should the thing be accepted (I'm finishing the first draft
    now) you-all will be the first to know.
    
    In fact, you won't be able to hold me down.
    
    --b