Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    At this point, I'd just like to agree to disagree with Suzanne and D!  
    
    D! maybe it's wrong for people to say "I'm beautiful" or "I'm smart" in
    a boastful context (to relative strangers, in public) because maybe if
    people say it enough, it will go to their heads, and maybe they will
    begin to believe they are better than other people, and maybe they will
    then begin treating other people as less than themselves.....
    
    
    Just a thought....
    
    Lorna
    

    
    
moved from 58.818
    
            <<< MOMCAT::PIGGY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 58.818                        The Rathole                        818 of 819
COGITO::SULLIVAN "Singing for our lives"             20 lines  31-OCT-1990 10:21
                               -< I gotta crow! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    D! your note touched on something for me.  I felt a little
    uncomfortable seeing SAT scores, too (especially the ones that were
    higher than mine :-), but...  I like that women come here and brag
    about their accomplishments.  Maybe for some women, this is the only
    place where they feel safe enough to share their successes, and
    maybe risking it here enables some women to go out and write a
    truer and more self-confident resume, sing their own praises in
    interviews, etc.  
    
    I also think it's fine for folks to speak up about their discomfort around 
    the posting of test scores (or weight) or whatever.  One of the ways we 
    can grow and learn is to take a risk in relative safety and then hear how
    people react to it, also in relative safety.  I know there have been
    some strong opinions shared in this string, but so far it still feels
    pretty safe.  I'm going to start a basenote on "blowing your own
    horn."  I think many of us have more to say on this topic, and we
    don't want to start going down a straight path in the rathole :-)
    
    Justine  

            <<< MOMCAT::PIGGY:[NOTES$LIBRARY]WOMANNOTES-V3.NOTE;3 >>>
                        -< Topics of Interest to Women >-
================================================================================
Note 58.816                        The Rathole                        816 of 820
TLE::D_CARROLL "Hakuna Matata"                       25 lines  31-OCT-1990 10:12
              -< where does the concept of "bragging" come from? >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >But, not all accomplishments need to be bragged about in public.
    
    Here's the clincher.
    
    I disagree.  Well, I agree they don't *need* to be, but I disagree with
    implication that they *shouldn't* be.
    
    Why is it that our culture places so much emphasis on success, and yet
    discourages talking about it?  Why is discussing one's achievements
    considered "bragging" (along with all the negative connotations of it.)
    
    In other words, *why* is it bad to say "I'm beautiful" or "I'm smart"
    or just a generic "I'm wonderful"? 
    
    I think women are "punished" (by society) even more for being proud of
    themselves.  They are taught to be modest more than men are, and that
    hurts them.  I have met a lot of women (fewer men, but it definitely
    affects them too) who have trouble writing resume's because they don't
    want to sound like they are bragging.  Getting ahead in this world is
    dependent on succeeding, and moreover, making your success known!  Yet
    in doing so, you risk offending.
    
    Why?
    
    D!

    The truth here.
    
    At Steve Lionel's party, when the photo was snapped that now resides in
    the "Friends" photo album, I quipped as I gathered with Lee and Lorna
    that "I'd always wanted my picture taken with two gorgeous blonds".
    
    But I guess that's neither here nor there....
    
    -----------------------------------
    
    I always feel strange about accomplishments.  It has taken me so many
    years to even ACKNOWLEDGE I have accomplishments (to OWN them as MINE
    and EARNED and VALID has always been very hard).....that I dare not
    speak them or they will disappear or something.  I have a terrible
    blind spot when it comes to myself - I cannot see my own richnesses.  I
    have relied on others for years to mirror me to myself because I could
    not see my own positive aspects.  I am finally starting to listen, but
    if listening means I believe them, and then I am so glowing I wish to
    share them, why share them if it hurts others?
    
    It is a double bind.  I am a woman and therefore must be modest and
    proper, and not grab the spotlight, and not bask in the glow of praises
    I have earned?  I must fear the censure of others when I do not meet
    their expectations?  I must feel less than nothing when but a single
    failure makes my whole life invalid and null and void, because for so
    many years I heard only criticism and no praise, and that is what I am
    attuned to?  It seems so strange to finally begin to know me, and fear
    sharing it because I *understand* so strongly what lack of self-esteem
    feels like when you hear the feats of others and wish to praise them
    and castigate yourself at one and the same time.  All the things that
    came easy for me never seemed valuable - poetry, remembering details,
    compassion, empathy.....until I realized that they held value for
    others, and realized that not everybody has them.  Instead I goaded
    myself for not being to learn calculus, or whatever.
    
    What can I say?  I suppose the best thing is to own my soft gems
    quietly and when others notice, thank them with the graciousness they
    deserve....
    
    -Jody
    

    	RE: .3  Lorna

    	Perhaps I'm not looking in the right topics, but I don't see
    	*anyone* saying "I'm beautiful" or "I'm smart."

    	I see someone say, "I'm average" and a lot of people saying, "You
    	must have high standards for average" - is this any more likely
    	to go to a person's head than if someone says, "I got xxx/yyy on
    	my SATs" (knowing people will think "Wow"?)

    	If someone thinks they are beautiful or smart, it *could* go to
    	the person's head whether it's ever stated outloud or not.

    	I still see no reason why people shouldn't post their SAT scores
    	if they want to - or not post them - as long as they don't also
    	add how much they would HATE it if they didn't have high scores.

    
    happy halloween, here are mine:
    
    I look stunning in black and white photos
    
    I write better poetry than anyone I read, except for Jody and Dorian
    
    I'm proud of my professional accomplishments, and the fact that I am
    where I am without a college education
    
    my mind and imagination amaze me
    
    no one can fix tortellini as well as I can
    
    I am an excellent kisser
    
    Carla
    

    well, i like to brag about my scores and how wonderful i am, but i
    think of that impulse as the more venal side of me, so i seldom do it.
    
    i don't think men are encouraged - any more than women are - to be
    snobs, and reciting SAT scores (or IQ scores, bra sizes, or even penis
    lengths) is  invitating comparison (explicitly or implicitly), the
    resulting "winner" being "better" than the "loser" and thereby
    justified in feeling superior.
    
    but an SAT score (or a GRE score) is different than a GPA.  and a GPA
    from one school is different than the same GPA from a different school.
    i mention my GPA when it comes up in conversation.  i seldom ever, ever
    tell anyone my SAT scores - beyond "they were good".
    
    nevertheless i like to brag because i like being me and think anyone
    who isn't me is unfortunate (like i said, this is the more venal side
    of me!!), but i was socialized very, very much like -d in .7: my
    parents told me so many times how wonderful i was that when i entered
    school i believed it and told everybody so, then spent a couple years
    getting beat up emotionally for that.
    
    later, i tried to fit in more, all the while trying to stay smart
    (because my intelligence was the only thing that could get positive
    attention from my parents).
    
    i think that while the scores *may* say something about how well you
    took tests that day, that's only one kind of intelligence.  there are
    many, many ways to be intelligent, and analytical/test-taking/whatever
    are simply the easy kinds to measure (and even those are measured
    poorly).  
    
    i am constantly shocked by some of the people i work with: they deal
    with extremely complicated concepts and applications of materials
    science, electrochemistry, electrical engineering, even physics despite
    their lack of tools and education.  i mean, people who can figure out a
    galvanic cell and the resulting corrosion product without knowing what
    an atom is!!!!!
    
    then *i* feel stupid in comparison with them.

    
    Add me to the group that thinks it's tacky to post SAT scores.
    Unless there's some real achievement behind something, as opposed
    to being born with, it's tacky, IMHO, to mention it (for its' own
    sake, that is).  I don't consider SAT scores an achievement of any
    sort - they are just a test for which one can't even study!
    
    That said, I consider almost anything a real achievement, though.
    Studying hard to get a good GPA, earning a college degree or a
    pilot's license, even becoming a fashion model (an example of using a
    talent one is born with), anything that requires some effort, as opposed
    to getting the right genes, in which case, your parents had more to
    do with it than you.
    

    I quit bragging about my academic accomplishments when I realized
    that no matter how good my scores were or how wonderful my papers
    were, I'd always run across somebody who had more of it, better. 
    It got to be so threatening to always have to defend my turf as
    top nerd in the English department.  I was taking every offhand
    comment as a direct challenge -- great way to get an ulcer.
    
    And then I realized sometimes the worst student in the class would
    have an absolutely correct and revealing insight into a work of
    poetry that I thought only the elite could understand . . . 
    
    So I started trying to do well for the sake of doing well, not for
    the sake of being top dog.  And for looking for truth, not status.  
    And realizing EVERYONE has something valuable to say. 
    
    And the funny thing is, I've done better and enjoyed it more since
    I became a student of life and knowledge and given up being the
    font of all wisdom . . .
    
    --bonnie

    No, no!  You can study for the SATs!
    
    I have a friend who does just that sort of tutoring.  She is
    available, so all you go-getting yuppie readers with underachieving
    teenagers should write me for further information.
    
    (She also does other kinds of tutoring, and since she was laid
    off from one of her jobs in the state&local budget crunch, she
    really is available to people in the Framingham area.)
    
    Bonnie, tell you what.  You can claim that you're not the fount
    of all knowledge, and *I* will claim I'm not the font of all
    knowledge.  Deal?
    
    						Ann Broomhead,
    						Fonts Engineering

	Hummppphhh!

	And just who here knows what's inborn and not?  I sure don't!  Bonnie
pointed out the influence that your background can have on your test results.
And I am constantly amazed at what is affected/caused by your genes.  I typed in 
an article a few nights ago , that I haven't gotten around to posting yet that 
quotes a recent study as showing that even such unlikely things as your 
*religiosity* are genetically predisposed.  And, really, if you think about it,
our genes have some influence direct or not on everything that we do.  Just
when does it become an Accomplishment rather than a trait?


	I've been mulling over the reaction to the SAT string since it started..
I've come to some conclusions, thought of things I really wanted to say to 
clear the air a bit, raised more questions in my mind.  I'll throw them 
out; you can tell me I'm full of Crap if you want. (It won't be the first 
time. :-) ) 

	First an apology to anyone who was made to feel uncomfortable by the 
posted SAT scores.  That was definately not the intent.  The string started as 
a kind of joke/offshoot of the cholestrol levels.  I didn't hesitate to post 
my scores as part of the joke because, as I said in the rathole note, I *truly* 
don't think they show anything other than how well you do at that type of test. 
A very narrow skill set with no relevance to your worth as a human being.   

	Next an observation.  We are all talking a good line about intellegence
being only one of many talents/traits/achievements that make a person worthwhile
adn unique.  We all SAY that we think that these test scores not really an 
indicator of anything important.  But apparently we don't really believe that.
Why on earth else would we be so riled up by the posting of the scores?

	Now the questions:

	What is bragging?  What is stating an accomplishment/fact?  What 
differentiates between them?  The audience?  As suggested before, whether or not
the trait is inborn?  If the latter, why is it bragging for me to post my SAT 
scores but not bragging for me to state my equally genetically determined
height of 5'1"?  Is the difference a result of the intention of the person
stating the fact?  Is so, what intentions make it bragging?  Is it pride in the
trait/achievement?  If so there is a LOT of that in the file, of which only
the SAT scores/GPA/IQ's have come under any kind of serious fire.  Why? 
Is it the intent to prove yourself superior to others?  If so then no one can 
say but me what I intended by my note and I say my note was not bragging since
my only intent was to go along with the cholesterol joke.

	That's enough for now.

Tracey

       
  

>            <<< Note 497.12 by TLE::RANDALL "self-defined person" >>>


	But, bonnie...there is a difference between recognizing your
	accomplishments and BRAGGING/thinking you're the best.


	Therapists work LONG hours trying to help us believe that we ARE
	worth something, that we DO deserve recognition for the things
	that we are good at......

	IMHO...modesty IS a virtue.......but self-defeatest attitudes
	are not.


	kathy

    >modesty IS a virtue
    
    Why?
    
    For all this discussion, I still have no idea why anyone should *not*
    tell all their good points to the world.
    
    D!

    
    Maybe we should be blowing our own piccolos?

    This discussion reminds me of discussions I've had regarding the
    concept of "false pride."  At first glance, one might think of false
    pride in terms of 'bragging' or egomaniacal behavior.  However, false
    pride can also fall into the area of under-rating or downplaying ones
    true talents, skills, etc.
    
    I think that upbringing has a lot to do with how comfortable we are
    about letting others know about our strengths, talents,
    accomplishments, etc.  I was raised in a roman catholic home and
    basically anything that I might say about my real accomplishments was
    labeled as bragging and something that I was discouraged from doing. 
    It is very hard to break out of those patterns, to not flinch when
    someone offers a compliment or acknowledges something significant that
    I've done.
    
    There are so many area where I feel that I have 'recovered' from the
    damages of an r.c. upbringing, but this area in particular still gets
    right in my face more than I care to think.
    

    re: .15
    
    Kath, I'm not quite sure which point you're addressing?  I nowhere
    meant to suggest that anyone should squelch their accomplishments. 
    I just found that when my focus was on accomplishing something and
    included a willingness to hear and learn from someone  with less
    prejudging of whether they were worth my while, I learned more,
    did work of better quality, and enjoyed myself more than when I
    was mostly concerned with making sure other people knew what I had
    accomplished and worried that someone else's success took away
    from my pride.
    
    If I hadn't learned to take myself a little less seriously and
    other people a little more seriously, I don't think I would ever
    have been able to appreciate the real value of the women in my
    family, most of whom were traditionally feminine.  Some of you who
    have been in womannotes for a long time might have seen me going
    through some of this growth, of finding out that a career, for
    instance, isn't a measure of moral worth.
    
    Certainly there's a difference between the kind of thing I was
    doing --  making sure someone else knew I was important, rather
    than contributing to the discussion or further peace on earth and
    good will among the human race -- and someone rejoicing in their
    accomplishment and wanting to share it with friends or with the
    world at large.  There's a world of difference between the way I
    used to act about my literary background (What?  How dare anybody
    say those ignorant things about Marlowe?) and the way Gale, for
    example, shared her joy and excitement about her solo flight.  And 
    I suspect my arrogance was a lot more obvious to the people I was
    bragging to than it was to me for a long time.
    
    But this is only my experience.  Maybe it's not typical of the way
    others have experienced accomplishment, pride, and arrogance.
    
    --bonnie

>    >modesty IS a virtue
>    
>    Why?
>    
>    For all this discussion, I still have no idea why anyone should *not*
>    tell all their good points to the world.


	There is a DISTINCT difference between stating your accomplishments
	(with modesty) and bragging about them/throwing them in other's
	faces.


	When I talk about modesty, I mean "with moderation; not extreme."


	kathy

    Re .20: OK... why is (or isn't) "I got nnn/nnn on my SATs" a rude
    statement as opposed to a modest one? Does one have to include a
    disclaimer each time, as in "...but of course it doesn't mean anything"
    (even if one is personally very proud of having achieved such a score)?
    
    Since it's impossible to avoid causing people pain, I think the only
    thing to do is to be sensitive when someone makes us aware that we have
    done so. I never (well, *almost* never!) want to hurt anybody's
    feelings, but some of the things I say could well do so, without my
    having any suspicion of a person's sensitivity to the topic. I would
    hope that someone who felt badly about it would let me know - without
    any accusations of rudeness on my part - so I could apologize and/or
    explain... Given peoples' different levels of sensitivity, and the
    difficulty of communicating some things in a medium like NOTES, I think
    that's the best we can do.
    
    -b

OK, I'm brilliant, creative, funny, short, a hard worker, loving, pretty ...

I'm not modest.

I scored fabulously on the SAT ... and I admit that I was very pleased.
I've sold some of my designs for children's clothing and I've taught cooking
I've worked my buns off for some things, while others have come easy
I'd rather like the way I look than not
I can act, sing, dance and direct/choreograph

Am I bragging?   I guess I am.

But I certainly don't feel like 'see what I did/have that you didn't/don't'

I am happy in the accomplishments of others and don't compete unless
forced into a corner.  When I hear Justine sing, I think 'what a great voice!'
not 'oh, well I can sing too.'  When I hear E Grace is having a good run, I'm
happy for her not envious because it's not me.

I _am_ a bit forward, but I don't really think I'm rude.

But if you [generic] think I'm rude, that's just fine. I'm sincerely sorry that
you feel that way.

If I don't do _some_ selling, I'll be on the shelf.  People are not mind
readers.  If they don't know what I can do, I'll not get many offers to do it.

  Annie

    
    for what it's worth, i think that sat scores (and to a lesser extent
    iq scores) are a special case. they are arbitrary, known to be biased
    (often to women and minorities) yet often have a disproportionate 
    impact on peoples' lives, up to the point of determining not simply
    their next educational step, but their careers, income and life-choices.
    alot of people have been and continue to be burned by these tests.
    don't be surprised if they're not amused by pride in this rather
    dubious accomplishment.
    

    It's a tough job, but somebody's gotta do it.  I'm all for blowing
    one's own horn.  I do not feel threatened by others doing so, and
    I don't feel that I am bragging by doing so myself.  In my mind,
    bragging is elaborating on something that is not necessarily completely
    true (i.e. expanding the truth just a tad to make oneself look better
    than one might otherwise); whereas blowing one's own horn is simply
    stating what is "provably" true and feeling good about it.
                    
    Keep those notes on key;)
    
    Barb

    re .23, nicely said.
    
    Lorna
    

    I once got some advice from a very experienced manager (one of my 
    mentors ) who said, "when interviewing a prospective employee,
    you can believe that the man will tell you 100% of his accomplishments,
    and probably exagerate as well.   The woman will tell you onlyl about
    half of what she has accomplished professionally, and will probably
    downplay her role in getting those things done."   
    
    She was prejudiced, but I personally have noticed over the years that men 
    have [ as a stereotyped class] very little trouble emphasizing positive
    points about themselves, and women have difficulty doing so.   I
    believe the difference is cultural - my opinion.
    
    I also remember - somewhere in my very distant past - that people did
    not consider my opinions valid, or my experiences significant, because
    I was very young.  This is somewhat akin to the reply that stated no
    one believed a list of accomplishments because the person had not been
    alive long enough.  That's frustrating, but it should not effect your
    being able to list accomplishments in the right context.  I am
    frequently amazed at others' lists of experiences, but that doesn't
    mean I cannot give them credibility.   Hope you don't stop enriching
    others' lives and work environment forever because of this one
    experience.
    
    -m
    
    p.s. 
    
    As to SAT scores - they belong on college applications - period.  I do
    not consider them a significant achievement one way or the other.  If
    you must brag about an accomplishment, pick one that matters.
    
    
    -m

    
    I tend to only mention any of my "shining skills" or accomplishments
    when to knowledge of them will benefit the situation.
    
    For example, if there's a project going on that needs good written
    commmunication skills I may mention that I've been rated high in that
    area and have a degree to back it ONLY because that would help the
    group allocate the task to the most approriate person and hence
    enable effective group work. And I'd enjoy doing that work.
    
    In a job interview or JP+R, as the objective of the situation is for
    me to show what I have done or can do, I'll happily list all I've
    accomplished without any conscious modesty. I know that I used
    to down-play my contributions and skills, and now I consciously work
    to try and recognise the real value of what I've done and tell it
    like that. It benefits the employer if they know what they're getting,
    and it heightens my chances of being included in work that I'd enjoy.
    
    WHY I used to down play my contribution was, I think, to do with 
    conditioning on modesty and simple tunnel-vision on my part about the
    impact I had (or could have) in the office. Reading about office
    politics (a dirty phrase for wmn, right?) changed my view, as did
    a revision of my ideals about why I was working and what I wanted from
    my job.
    
    I have no idea what a SAT score is (always thought it stood for
    Soprano, Alto, Tenor....:-)
    
    'gail 
           

	re: the P.S. in .26 

	I just don't get it.  If the SAT scores are so unimportant, why 
is it such a sin to mention them?  It doesn't jive.

Tracey

    A little insight into the importance of SAT scores.  When I went to
    college, I went with a friend from high school.  Our math SAT's had a
    grand total of 3 points different between them.  Because of an
    arbitrary cut-off, imposed by the school, she had to take a math course
    in order to get her degree.  I didn't, and got to take a class I much
    preferred at the time.  She had gotten higher grades in the math
    classes we took, by a significant amount.  I don't believe she has 
    forgiven me to this day.  And I'm not sure it was a benefit to me in 
    the long run, as I simply take multiple-choice exams very well, rather 
    than having more math knowledge or ability.  In fact, it's the one
    academic area where I feel my skills are weakest.
    
    
    Alison 

    However, they deny that they instituted these changes as a way of
    addressing cultural bias.
    
    -- Mike

    me:
    
    >    For all this discussion, I still have no idea why anyone should
    >    *not* tell all their good points to the world.
    
    Kath:
    >        There is a DISTINCT difference between stating your
    >accomplishments
    >        (with modesty) and bragging about them/throwing them in other's
    >        faces.
    
    But that still doesn't answer the question.  Why is it bad to tell
    my accomplishments, no matter how I tell them.  Why is bragging bad?
    (Assuming the definition of bragging in this case does not include, as
    someone suggested earlier, lying or exaggeration.)
    
    I still don't understand why it's bad, even in the extreme.
    
    Why, in our culuture, is it bad to say "I am amazingly beautiful?"
    
    D!
    

    re: .32
    
    Because women are supposed to be demure and self-effacing, silly. 
    Because by touting yourself brazenly you are no longer that shy,
    retiring flower that merely sits in the sunshine to be admired or
    ignored by passersby.  By admiring yourself you cast aside the cloak of
    innocence, naivete', and self-effacing deference, and become something
    bordering on strident assertive/aggressive bitch.
    
    Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that men can
    compete/compare openly while women must do it quietly or be thought
    non-femininine.....
    
    -Jody
    
    p.s.  I don't really know WHY it's bad, I just know from the reaction
    it gets it must be, mustn't it?  Or have we been reacting incorrectly
    all these years.....

    
    Re -1
    >Perhaps it has something to do with the fact that men can
    >compete/compare openly while women must do it quietly or be thought
    >non-femininine.....
    
    Now that's interesting....
    I agree with you that men can compete and compare more openly than
    wmn without incurring social censure.
    
    Why do you think this is?
    Or do you people disagree?
    
    And how do you feel it impacts our promotion in the business world?
    
    'gail
    

  Re; .33 (Jody)

  I don't think it has anything to do with the gender of the person touting
their accomplishments; I'd have (and have) the same reaction if it were a male.
I've gotten similar feedback myself when bragging about my college grades (and
rightly so, I busted my ass for them ;^).

Jim

    Jim, .35, I agree with you.  I don't think this issue has anything to
    do with anyone expecting women to be demure or with trying to keep
    women down.  I find it just as offensive to have a man brag as to have
    a woman brag.
    
    re D!, what is wrong with bragging?  
    
    Perhaps one thing that is wrong with bragging is that it may offend
    other people.  Do you want to offend other people?  Do you like to be
    offended?  Do you think we should try to treat others the way we would
    like to be treated ourselves?
    
    Another thing is that bragging can make for both boring and awkward
    conversation.  If you walk up to me at a womannotes outing and tell me
    that you consider yourself to be extremely beautiful, what am I
    supposed to say?  What if I were to say, "D!, be realistic, you aren't
    exceptionally beautiful.  You're an average looking woman."  What would
    you say to that, and where would the conversation go from there?  You
    might be offended.  We might get in an argument.  For what?  If *you*
    really consider yourself to be extremely beautiful maybe it would be
    better to just quietly feel good about, and the confidence it gives you
    may reward you more than announcing it to the world would have done.
    
    Lorna
    

           
    But when I read that D! knows how beautiful she is, I though...
    Gee, if only her "wannabe" read Womannotes...
    
    Lorna, I appreciate your feelings and share some of them, as I said
    before, but I really hope that women will keep using Womannotes as
    place to practice sharing their achievements.  I might get bored or
    even annoyed if folks started listing their IQs, GPAs, SATs, GREs, etc
    on a regular basis, but I'd probably just hit next unseen.  But I love
    that women talk about the things they do well.  Sometimes I feel
    jealous, impressed, inspired -- sometimes all those things at once.
    I think that's ok, too.  
    
    Justine

    
    RE -1
    
    I agree that, if you find bragging offensive, it is just as offensive
    whichever gender is doing it.
    
    It just seems to me that most of the bragging I hear going on (and
    I hear a lot in the office) is usually happening when people are
    being *competitive* in a certain area. It doesn't offend me
    particularly because it seems to be a normal part of a healthy
    competing "game" (though a bit of a time-waster, usually)...
    
    The connection seems to be that it's not considered "normal" for wmn
    to compete in these games - or that competition is not seen
    as "healthy" by wmn. We regard it as "political", and "one-upmanship",
    and look down on it with distain ("I do my job well - I don't need
    to play these silly games"). I come across far fewer men with this
    attitude. That was what made me wonder if gender had anything to do
    with it - or gender conditioning, or whatever.
    
    'gail 

    >Perhaps one thing that is wrong with bragging is that it may offend
    >other people.  Do you want to offend other people?  Do you like to be
    >offended?  Do you think we should try to treat others the way we would
    >like to be treated ourselves?
          
    
    No, no, of course I don't want to offend anyone unneccessarily, Lorna. 
    But my point was - why does it offend?  What's *wrong* with it that
    offends?
    
    The thing is, I too find it offensive.  If someone told me they found
    themselves amazingly beautiful, I would be taken aback, and think less
    of them, and probably be offended.  But I don't know *why* I have that
    reaction, and I don't like it, so I want to track down it's roots and
    get rid of it.
    
    D!

    RE: .36 Lorna
    
    Nicely put!
    
    Eileen

    
    As I understand it, women weren't supposed to speak up in public at all
    until fairly recently. In the early 19th century when some women
    began to join the abolitionist movement and to give speeches on the
    subject, they were critized, not so much for the content of what they
    were saying as for the fact that they were saying *anything* that would
    suggest they had opinions of their own...maybe this isn't the same as
    blowing your own horn, but I think it's related.
    
    I forget which of our worthy founding fathers, quoted in that Why We Burn 
    topic, basically said women should just keep quiet...lots of shrinking
    violets probably sprang up from that one, over the centuries.
    
    D.
    

    
    Frankly, I hope that people who don't like bragging aren't talking
    about the "I made it" stories.
    
    I think its one thing to talk about something you did a while back, but
    quite another to share your leap for joy at something immediate. Like
    those people who got into Law School, or those who got promotions, or
    new, exciting jobs, in the "Milestones and Accomplishments" note.
    
    I always feel a happiness for the women here who can share their
    achievements as they happen. People who know me have heard me share
    mine. Yeah, maybe for some people, it seems like bragging. But I enjoy
    sharing my friends' exhilaration over passing milestones. Admittedly,
    marriages and engagements make me envious, as do promotions sometimes,
    but in almost every case, I am still EXTREMELY happy for the person
    involved.

    Maybe it's just a question of style ? There's a difference between
    "I did well on the SAT's and got accepted to the college of my
    choice" and "I scored 1547 combined and watched Harvard and Yale
    fight for my attention." 
    
    Dana (who did 'ok' on SAT's and was in no danger of yuppification :-) )

    
    i agree that this is a feminist issue, in that women traditionally 
    have been discouraged from acknowledging their accomplishments. but
    it occurs to me that the answer to d!'s question might be something
    like: becausein many situations it is difficult to say good things
    about oneself without implying less-good things about the person
    one is speaking to. it requires a certain facility/sensitivity with 
    language that many people do not have. of course, as abby suggests,
    if things weren't so competitive this would be less of a problem.
    

> Do you think we should try to treat others the way we would like to be treated
> ourselves?

I believe that this may be the crux of the matter.  The easy answer to this is
"Yes."  But it's not a simple thing to acomplish, because not everyone is happy
or comfortable with the same things.

I would much prefer people to be open and validating about their accomplishments
-- maybe even crow a little -- in their interactions with me. Truly, there are
few things I find more offensive in everyday interactions than people who demur,
or deny their accomplishments.

It doesn't offend me when people claim brilliance or great beauty [even if I
think they need a sanity check].

Does this mean that people who are not _comfortable_ acknowledging greatness
should do it anyway in order to avoid offending me?

Of course not.

I do not wish to offend anyone.  However, if I avoid all potentially offensive
behaviours, I won't ever be able to do _any_thing.  So, in general I tend to
moderate my own natural inclinations and make adjustments where I feel disposed
to do so.

I feel comfortable _here_ saying I'm brilliant and creative because _most_ of
the people of =wn= that I love and admire will at worst chalk it up to 
eccentricity and at best jump in and cheer with me.  I respect alternative
opinions; but, like everyone, I cannot please everyone in this diverse forum.

  Annie

    Yes, both men and women `lose points' for bragging, but consider:
    
    If I use the term "braggart" (or the even juicier "loud-mouthed
    braggart"), do you vision a man or a woman?  A man, right?  Now,
    part of this is/could be man-centered-ness, but I think that a
    woman who behaves like a braggart gets labelled with a different
    name.
    
    I think that bragging is outside the boundaries of `proper' behavior
    for all, but for women, it is outside the boundaries of *imaginable*
    behavior as well.
    
    I think the preference for modesty might stem from the Puritan work
    ethic, or from the Virtue of Humility.  Or it might only seem to 
    stem from them and *really* come from the awkwardness of responding
    to bragging that Lorna pointed out.  But with the invention of "How
    nice for you." as a response, things may change.  :-)
    
    							Ann B.

Well, I don't get offended when people brag (including myself) but
what I really respect and admire is when I hear off people selflessly
helping other people or things (ie, the environment).  

I like to share in other people's happiness.  To see someone else
happy makes me happy.  What I really appreciate is not so much the
happiness of achievement as measured the this society which can be
power, status, or money for men and beauty, status, or husband for
women (although this seems to be changing) because this is fleeting
and a never ending search for more of the same, but a deeper happiness
that comes from actualized one's deeper "spiritual" function on earth.  

When someone says they are beautiful or smart, what do they mean? That
they were born with and developed the culturally defined standards of
beauty or intelligent or whatever?  What I really value is person's
heart.  That can be readly seen in a person's actions. To me,
developing one's "heart" or compassion is something that is possible
for everyone and not dependant on cultural defined standards or
personal acheievment.

Speaking as a chronic overachiever and one (according to what I've
heard) that was lucky enough to be born with some of the culturally
defined standard of beauty for men, it doesn't really result in very
much satisfaction.  I am happiest when being of service to others (and
I would like to me more often).  Of course, even that can get to be an
ego thing.  How of service am I?  Who is more of service.  Looking for
rewards or recognition for service.  Yuck.  One things I know for
myself - looking for recognition seems counter-productive.  When I do
what is right, when I am being of service, all that stuff takes care
of itself.

From a feminist viewpoint, personal achievement, wealth, status, and
power are part (in my view) of the traditional, western, "patriarchal"
value system.  Personal ego gratification is put above group values
and planetary sustainability.  Sometimes it seems like the message for
blacks, women, and other "minority" groups is that we'll let some of
you in as long as you play by our rules and values.  In my view, a
more fundamental change in values is needed.  

john

    re .42, I don't consider the success stories that
    women have shared in this file regarding changing careers, or
    developing more self-esteem, or whatever, to be bragging.
    
    re .43, I agree.  The way that something is said makes a big
    difference.
    
    re .47, I agree with your last paragraph.  It really comes down to the
    values of our society.  I think there is too much emphasis placed on
    attaining personal wealth and power, and not enough emphasis is placed
    on helping each other.
    
    Another question to ask about bragging, along with why is it offensive,
    might be, What prompts people to want to brag in the first place?  
    
    
    Lorna
     

    
    RE: .48  Lorna
    
    > Another question to ask about bragging, along with why is it offensive,
    > might be, What prompts people to want to brag in the first place?  
    
    The more appropriate question is - why do some people use emotionally-
    loaded phrases like "bragging" when somone innocuously mentions something
    about hirself in the context of a lite exchange on numbers?
    
    Why would someone be so offended by such offhand remarks that they would
    choose to describe it in the most condemning terms?
    

    re .49, can it Suzanne.  I'm not interested in playing.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	RE: .50  Lorna
    
    	Neither am I.
    
    	It was an honest question.
    

    
    dearest suzanne, you might want to look back at my thoughts on why
    sat scores might elicit emotionally-loaded phrases. for some of us,
    sat scores are not innocuous ;^)
    
    reading mr. heffernan's note makes me think even more that speaking
    highly of oneself is a tricky business. if one says 'i am x' or
    'i have done y' in a way that suggests that they are pleased
    with that acheivement and i happen to think that x or y is not
    admirable, what is my proper response? of course, being the extremely
    polite person i am, besides being up on the latest technology,
    i would say 'how nice for you'. but a person with less regard
    for etiquette, or perhaps greater regard for truth, might find
    that difficult. in such a case, it seems not un-useful to 
    suggest that people speaking highly of their more controversial
    accomplishments might exercise caution.
    
    after all, while we all have a right to speak, we do not have a
    right to be listened to. if we wish to be listened to, we must
    be sensitive and respectful to our audience.
    

    
    	While I can certainly see why it might be wise to use caution
    	when speaking to one's audience, I don't see "caution" being
    	exercised when people characterize an (at most) careless mention
    	of SAT scores as "bragging."
    
    	Why is "caution" not being recommended in this case as well?
    

    
    i do not believe that the full context would bear out a description
    of 'careless mention'. it was my take, and obviously some others
    (it was mentioned in this file by someone), that a kind of one-up-
    man-ship was going on. if it had stopped with one mention of, 'gee
    my cholesterol is the difference between my verbal and math scores'
    i daresay no one would have felt it was 'bragging'.
    

There is a difference between "being proud of" something, and being 
"prideful"!

If I talk about my I.Q., or my acting ability, or anythng else, I am a) not 
saying anyone who doesn't have the same things is "less than" me, and b) still
talking about something with which I was born.

That's right.  I was born with my acting talent just as I was born with my
I.Q., freckles and hazel eyes.

So, sorry, but I will continue to value my differences as well as others',
and I am not going to hide or invalidate my self anymore

E Grace 

    When someone volunteers a statement like "I am beautiful" or "I am
    a really wonderful musician" (to pick a couple of random
    examples), the first thought that crosses my mind is, "Why is he
    or she telling me this?  Is she afraid I won't notice?"
    
    There are situations where volunteering that kind of information
    might be relevant.   If I'm interviewing someone to play at a
    dance, for instance, I'd like to know she's a wonderful musician,
    or if someone is offering her insights into our culture's view of
    female beauty, her own opinion that she's beautiful is
    appropriate.  If we're discussing the things we feel good about in
    ourselves, both remarks would be welcome.  In job interviews and
    salary reviews, similarly blowing one's own horn is a good thing.
    
    But in other contexts, it seems that if the people around me
    aren't going to notice that I'm sexy, kind, generous,
    compassionate, and a damn good writer, then telling them isn't
    going to change their minds.  I'm more likely to get, "You think
    you're a good writer?  With the kind of junk you put in notes
    files?  Get a life, woman, and stop drinking the ozone!"
    
    --bonnie

If I talk about my I.Q., or my acting ability, or anythng else,
                                                       ^

E G.

    
    
    
    re .49 -- Suzanne, I thought you used pretty loaded language in your
    note, too.  Lorna said "another question... *might* be.." (emphasis
    mine.)  Your reply to her said "*The more appropriate* question *is*.."
    (again emphasis mine.)  A small difference in word choice, but it made
    a big difference to me.    Also, I think if you had said, "When I saw
    the word 'bragging,' I felt..." my reaction would have been different
    than it was to what you did say:

    >>why do some people use emotionally-loaded phrases like "bragging" 
    >>when somone innocuously mentions something about hirself in the 
    >>context of a lite exchange on numbers?
      
    Even though I think my own opinion on this issue is closer to yours than 
    it is to Lorna's, I felt much more defensive after I read your note than I
    did after I did hers.  Please feel free to accept or reject my feedback
    as you see fit, but I wanted you to know how I felt after I read your
    note.
    
    Justine
              

    	Nope - I don't buy the idea that it's rude and insensitive to
    	mention one's SAT scores (while it's wonderful to condemn such
    	people with negative terms like "bragging.")

    	If someone wants to tell their IQ, their SAT scores, their GRE
    	scores - or anything else that makes the person happy about
    	herself - so what?

    	If a person is going to feel superior to someone else, it will
    	happen whether or not we all know the individual's IQ, SAT's,
    	weight or whatever.  However, revealing these things is not a
    	definite sign that the person DOES feel superior *unless* such
    	revelations are accompanied by, "Thank God, because I would HATE
    	<the opposite accomplishment or attribute>."

    	It doesn't make sense to me why it is ok to characterize people
    	with such negative (insensitive) terms for the sake of asking
    	for sensitivity.

    	RE: .59  Justine

    	Ok, I'll buy that it's less sensitive to say "A more appropriate
    	question *is*" instead of "*might be*" - 

    	But it still leaves us with the idea that it was insensitive for
    	some people to mention SAT's and it was insensitive for some
    	people to be bothered by the characterization of "bragging" -
    	but it was ok to use a term like "bragging" to describe those
    	who revealed their SAT's.

    	So - we come back to the idea that it's reasonable and ok to
    	condemn people quite harshly for an innocuous mention of something
    	they happen to be proud of about themselves.

    	It doesn't make sense.  Sorry.

    
    i don't think anyone has said it is rude and insensitive to mention
    sat scores per se. a number of people, however, have made i think
    good cases for how mentioning said scores in certain contexts might
    be construed as having less than altruistic import; in a word,
    bragging. i think the explanation for that is because sat (and 
    similar standardized test) scores are a special case (q.v.).
    
    in general, i'm suggesting that whenever someone says 'it makes me 
    proud and feel good about myself because x' it is *demanding* of us, 
    the listener, to share the speaker's enthusiasm. it is rarely polite
    to demand anything, let alone enthusiasm for something that one
    might find repugnant (and it's naive in this day and age to think
    that sats or iq tests aren't controversial). if someone were to say 
    that they were proud of their acheivements in the field of lynching, 
    would 'so what?' be an appropriate response? 
    
    

    >  	So - we come back to the idea that it's reasonable and ok to
    >	condemn people quite harshly for an innocuous mention of something
    >	they happen to be proud of about themselves.

    no, it's reasonable to condemn the not-innocuous mention of something
    they happen to be proud of about themselves that is known to be
    repugnant to other people.
    

    	RE: .62  Joe

    	Well, the words "rude bragging" were used earlier (and the word
    	"insensitive" has floated around a number of times in reference
    	to someone who reveals their SAT scores.)

    	I'm sorry, though - the mention of SAT scores is *not* an implicit
    	demand for anything (from anyone.)

    	The context of the SAT scores were in a lite discussion - so, if
    	anything, they were part of a light-hearted discussion of numbers.
    	I don't see how "unreasonable demands" comes anywhere close to
    	describing what people were doing.

    >it is rarely polite to demand anything, let alone enthusiasm for
    >something that one might find repugnant (and it's naive in this day and
    >age to think that sats or iq tests aren't controversial). if someone
    >were to say that they were proud of their acheivements in the field of
    >lynching, would 'so what?' be an appropriate response?
    
    There's a big difference between SAT scores and lynching.
    
    I haven't seen anyone here say that they find SAT's to be repugnant. 
    While people might object to their prevalence, or how they are
    implemented or used, I don't think anyone finds having *taken* the
    SAT's to be a repugnant act in and of itself.  (After all, almost all
    of us have done it.)  I haven't even seen anyone suggest that they find
    having done well on an SAT test to be repugnant.
    
    So the difference is if I say "I am proud for having lynched x people"
    you can say "I think you shouldn't be proud be lynching people is
    *bad*."  But if I say "I am proud for having done well on the SAT's"
    can you say "I think you shouldn't be proud because doing well on the
    SAT's is a bad thing."?  The situations just aren't analagous, no
    matter how stupid you think SAT's are.
    
    I just don't see the difficulty presented by "repugnancy".  People have
    a right to beat their chests about any achievement they think
    worthwhile.  If you consider their achievement meaningless (like some
    people might feel about SAT's) you might say "I'm glad you are proud of
    yourself" (if you want to be polite) or "I don't think the SAT's
    measure anything of value, so I don't support your pride" (if you are
    looking for an argument.)  On the other hand, if you consider their
    achievement to be a repugnant thing (as opposed to merely meaningless)
    you can either say "I'm glad you are proud of yourself" or "I think
    what you have done is *bad* and should be a source of shame rather than
    pride."  What's the trouble?
    
    D!

    RE: .63  Joe

    > no, it's reasonable to condemn the not-innocuous mention of something
    > they happen to be proud of about themselves that is known to be
    > repugnant to other people.

    Who knew this, though (when these scores were being mentioned)?

    Of all the things in the world to find offensive, this is one of the
    last things I would ever have guessed would have people so bothered.

    I mean, now it's being compared to being proud to have lynched someone
    - it is amazing to me that so much pressure can still be brought to
    bear upon (mostly) women having the gall to be proud of doing well on
    a standardized test like the SATs.

    Who could have guessed that this would happen (in 1990)?  Not me.

    This is a revised version of the note I originally entered as
    58.830.
    
    This culture's ingrained either-or beliefs have so conditioned us 
    to thinking that only one extreme can be true and that there
    aren't any third options or in between positions that it seems
    like nobody can even hear what the other side is talking about.
    
    Pointing out that not everyone was born with advantages of brains,
    money, social position, beauty, or whatever does NOT mean that
    the person with the advantage should be ashamed of it, should deny
    its existence, or should not talk proudly about it when the
    circumnstances warrant.  Or vice versa.  
    
    I'm glad for the people who were born with the mental capacity to
    do well in school and who had the family background and support to
    succeed -- or the persnal bumption to triumph over lack of
    support.  I'm proud of you and I think you should be proud of
    yourselves.  And hearing the stories of women who have done well
    is good.  It promotes a healthy image of women as doers and
    achievers so maybe the next generation won't have to go through
    as much pain as some of us did to get where we are. 
    
    But many women (and men) have worked just as hard for just as long
    and with just as much determination to get Cs.  Or worked just as
    hard and for just as long and with just as much determination and
    not have been able to hack it, because they didn't have support at
    home, because they couldn't afford it, because their cultural and
    educational experiences didn't teach them the nonacademic skills
    they needed if they were to achieve academically. 
    
    No one here had said they didn't understand this, but I see it
    constantly in the society around us.  Just last night a dentist
    who was the keynote speaker told a group of high school students
    and their parents that "Without a college education, a person
    cannot appreciate the wholeness of life.  It remains a stream of
    unrelated details."   I could have picked another example from
    most any magazine. 
    
    It was this societal oppression that seeped out in the notes of
    the women who were confessing they'd never been to college.  It
    was in the pain in Lorna's notes when she assumes she's not going
    to be taken as seriously because she doesn't have the education
    most of us do, even though she's as well spoken and clearsighted
    as anyone here.  
    
    Here we are, most of us having been belittled and made ashamed for
    our intelligence and our accomplishments, and instead of holding
    up our sisters and acknowledging the reality of the feelings,
    we're saying that the women who were hurt have no business feeling
    hurt.  We're saying, "But there's nothing wrong with talking about
    our high SAT scores" when the women -- and some of them men -- who
    don't have high SAT scores are telling us in plain English that
    they were hurt by it.  How different is this from a man referring
    to his female co-workers as "girls" and then insisting that since
    he didn't mean anything by it, he's going to continue saying it?  
    
    --bonnie

    
    the 'lite' topic however was cholestorol (or some such). sat scores
    is not a 'lite' topic for some people.
    
    getting out into the theoretical, i think the mention of *any*
    accomplishment or 'thing one is proud of' *is* an implicit demand
    for 'sympathy'. i truly believe that's why it's such a sticky
    wicket.
    
    it also has implications as to why a person might feel hesitant
    to share their accomplishments, if they've been taught to never
    make demands. it's the insidious other side to not feeling you
    have anything to be proud of yourself for in the first place.
    

    Why do I feel like I'm on both sides of this issue?
    
    I do not think it's wrong or rude to post SAT scores, but I chose not
    to do it.  The reason I made this choice (besides that I can't remember
    my SAT scores) is that my experience tells me that no matter what my
    reason for posting them, there is a good chance that someone will
    interpret it as bragging and be offended.  Bragging is *sometimes* in the
    eye of the beholder.
    
    When I first saw the scores being posted, I percieved it as people
    having fun and joking around.  As more and more people did it I began
    to perceive it as one-up-man-ship or bragging.  But that was my
    perception which *may or may not* accurately reflect the true motives of
    the people who did it.
    
    Apparently, Lorna perceived it that way too, and again her perceiving
    it as bragging doesn't mean it was intended as bragging.  But Lorna's
    feelings are not wrong either.  It's the way she feels.  I felt empathy
    for Lorna and responded with a note intended to validate her feelings
    without condemning the people who were posting their scores.
    
    But, in that note I did "brag" jokingly about my not weighing enough to
    give blood.  This was really intended as support for Lorna by
    identifying with her.  Anyone who knows me also knows that I would
    dearly love to gain 10 or 20 pounds, but find that as impossible for me
    as it is for some people to lose weight.  And I rarely get any
    sympathy.  People just say "I wish I had your problem."  Which
    invalidates my feelings about my weight.
    
    Mary

    
    well, i find sats repugnant. i think they are meaningless. i think
    pride in high scores is pride in something meaningless which is
    foolish at best. i'm embarrassed that i took them (and the acheivement
    tests and the gres and every other god damn test) and i'm not
    impressed with anyone who did (and i *am* impressed with those who
    didn't). so, in a way, yes, i *do* think that doing well on the
    sats is a bad thing, though obviously not bad like lynching bad.
    
    but that's a rather nasty thing for me to say isn't it? i think so.
    but that's what i think whenever people tell me their sat scores.
     
    
    

>    Who knew this, though (when these scores were being mentioned)?

>    Of all the things in the world to find offensive, this is one of the
>    last things I would ever have guessed would have people so bothered.

 i am perfectly willing to accept ignorance as a defence ;^)
    

    	RE: .68  Joe

    	> getting out into the theoretical, i think the mention of *any*
    	> accomplishment or 'thing one is proud of' *is* an implicit demand
    	> for 'sympathy'. i truly believe that's why it's such a sticky
    	> wicket.

    	Sympathy for the things that make them happy?  Really?
    
    	What could possibly be wrong with sharing happiness (or, conversely,
    	asking for support during sorrow)?
    
    	How could you think such a thing is a "demand"??

    
    	RE: .73  Joe
    
    	Well, thanks (I guess.)  ;^)
    
    	What is your defense for condemning innocent people so harshly?
    

    
    	By the way, I'm not one of the people who announced my SAT
    	scores (*or* my cholesterol level.)
    
    	No particular reason for either.  I just didn't.
    

    
    sympathy was a rather whimsical choice, eh? but i was getting tired
    of writing 'share their enthusiasm'. which, incidentally, i think
    can be a demand. it is one most people, most of the time, comply
    with freely and in good faith, but it is still a demand of my time
    and energy.
    
    as for condemning innocents, i am sorry if i unfairly categorized
    anyone's actions or intentions. i think the twin questions of sat
    scores and dealing with 'blowing one's own horn' are very important
    and i think it's worth it to dig deeply. i realise that that may
    have caused some unnecessary unpleasantness and apologize for that
    and my lack of grace.
    

    
    	RE: .77  Joe
    
    	A demand on your time and energy (to hear what makes people happy
    	about themselves...)?
    
    	Gee.
    

    I didn't enter mine by number, because I can't remember them.  However,
    I did enter a response, thinking it was a lite topic.  Now I'm sorry I did,
    and even sorrier that I have two (to me) accomplishments I was so
    looking forward to sharing.  Lest they be viewed as put-downs of
    others, I'd best refrain...
    
    Put-down, however, was not the intention.  When I anticipated entering
    them in WN3, it was to invite others to share in my joy.  Well, I can
    still do that.  Please share in my joy!  I accomplished two things
    recently that make me feel wonderful!  Please don't feel bad, or put
    down by this, and please accept my hope for your continued and
    undoubtedly far greater successes.  My accomplishments probably
    aren't worth all that much anyway, just two things I worked hard to do,
    two things, the accomplishment of which means a lot to me.
    
    I very much enjoy hearing of the successes and accomplishments and
    choices of others, and invite you all to share yours with me.  If I
    find myself feeling envious or hurt, I'll work it out and gain a
    feeling of accomplishment that way!
    
    aq
     

    
    	Ann, my heartiest congratulations for your two recent accomplishments!
    
    	Please send me mail about them - I'd love to hear about anything
    	that makes you especially happy or proud!
    

    RE: .80
    
    ditto!
    
    E Grace

	This is a late reply and I think that jwhite has said just
	about all I would have said - except one thing.

	I am proud of the fact that I go passing good scores in the
	tests that I took but it has nothing to do with the actual
	scores or even the tests themselves it has to do with something
	extremely personal and beyond that the tests and scores have
	no meaning except on college application forms.

	For to me to hear others banting about how well they did, that
	they are in the genuis percentile or that they got to go to
	top notch schools because of their scores, it reminds me of 	
	the increciable pain I went though to get the little bit that
	I was able to get and I really don't need anyone puffing themselves
	up and reminding me how below them I am (cause that is exactly
	how it feels to me).  I put test scores and yes even gpa in
	the catagory as the abilty to spell and work with numbers.  Some
	have it and some don't.

	The trouble is that in this society that is how one gets graded,
	ranked and placed in schools.  I, also have to agree with John H.
	about added value to society in general.  There are too many
	people I know who spent a lot of time on their grades and let
	their neighbors go hungry, get raped, be abused, lack medical
	attention, be lonely.  What I admire in people is the ablity
	to give of themselves.

	_peggy

    
    The following is a reply from a member of the community who wishes
    to remain anonymous
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
    If it's alright to brag anywhere, anytime, here is a sample from a man
    named Fred Stenger. When I asked him for a list of his achievements to
    post here, he couldn't resist.

        "My I.Q. has been measured at 151. My SAT's were 708-730. I won a
        National Merit Scholarship to the best undergraduate electrical
        engineering college in the United States. I have been a structural
        draftsman, a mechanical draftsman, a tool designer, a machine-tool
        programmer, a technical illustrator, a commercial artist, a
        musician (clarinet, flute, trumpet, French horn, trombone,
        recorder, and voice at various times), a photographer, a computer
        systems designer and hardware engineer, a published fiction author,
        a gunsmith, a bicycle mechanic, a retail salesperson, an
        applications software engineer, a technical writer, a carpenter, a
        parent, a music critic, a restaurant critic, a free-lance newspaper
        writer, a recording engineer, a pastoral counsellor, and probably
        more. I am not unhandsome, a superb lover, and so charming as to be
        virtually irresistible to many members of the opposite sex. I have
        excellent taste in color and dress. I speak French with an
        excellent Parisian accent but not as fluently as I used to. I am
        well read. I am a superb cook."

    Sure. How much of Fred's list would you beleive if he laid it on you? 
    And how many of them do you really care about at this time and place in
    your life?

    There is a time and a place for everything. I have known Fred long
    enough to be satisfied that his list is all true, it is OK for him to
    give it to me for this purpose. It would not be OK for him to stroll
    into a bar, start a conversation with an interesting person who meets
    the criteria of his sexual polarity and then reel it off. But that's
    about what some people view the SAT discussion as.

    Hey, Fred sounds like my father, both in his experience and his
    attitude.
    
    And since my father is one of the coolest people on the 
    planet (<--brag) I guess I would say that Fred's accomplishments,
    and his stating them, are cool.  (Although the SAT score of
    708 is a lie.  SAT scores are in multiples of either 5 or 10, I don't
    remember, but definitely not 708.)
    
    Anyway, I think you all are messing up intent with action.  If Fred
    walked into a bar, and without provocation, stood up and started
    listing off his accomplishments, people would wonder *why*.  I can
    think of a few reasons: he is looking for a job and hoping someone in
    the bar will give him one, he wants to feel superior to the people in
    the bar, he wants other people in the bar to feel inferior to him, he
    is doing it on a dare, he thinks it will turn on attractive MOTAS, or
    any other number of things.  Who can say?
    
    People might analyze the possible reasons and decide that the most
    *likely* one is that he feels superior and/or wants others to feel
    inferior. If that is truly his intent, then they have a right to feel
    insulted and offended.
    
    See, the trick here isn't that the *bragging* was offensive, but the
    *intent* in the bragging.  Which is why Fred sending you his list of
    achievements isn't offensive, but his intent was admirable - ie: to
    answer your question.
    
    No, comparing Fred walking into a bar and spontaneously spewing out his
    resume has no basis.  The SAT discussion here in =wn= had a basis. 
    Someone jokingly commented on a correlation beween hir SAT's and
    cholesterol level.  In order to determine whether there was a
    correlation, other people chimed in.  Once people started telling their
    SAT scores, everyone (figuratively speaking) started stepping in. Here,
    unlike in the bar scenario, we have an explanation for why people were
    telling their scores: at first, as a continuation of a joke, and later,
    as a sheep-herd effect of people doing what others are doing.  While
    niether of these are admirable, they certainly aren't offensive.
    
    D!

    	RE: .83  Anon

    	> There is a time and a place for everything. I have known Fred long
   	> enough to be satisfied that his list is all true, it is OK for him 
    	> to give it to me for this purpose. 

    	Many of us in this notesfile have known each other for a long time.
    	If people want to make casual mention of their SAT scores, it is
    	Ok for them to give this information as far as I'm concerned.  I
    	don't mind.  It's ok with me if strangers give this info as well.

    	> It would not be OK for him to stroll into a bar, start a 
    	> conversation with an interesting person who meets the criteria of 
    	> his sexual polarity and then reel it off. But that's about what some 
    	> people view the SAT discussion as.

    	It's "OK" if he meets someone with similar interests (or who finds
    	such things interesting.)  There's nothing morally wrong with reciting
    	one's accomplishments to others.

    
    	Well, I must admit that I find this topic very disappointing.
    
    	It never occurred to me that it was such a burden for some people
    	to hear about things that make other people happy or proud.
    
    	If we can't share our joys here, then what's the use?
    

    
    after speaking with my dear friend suzanne, i realise that some of
    my remarks may have spun out in the wrong direction. by way of
    clarification, let me state:
    
    my antipathy is directed almost exclusively at the sat and how
    it has hurt many people (*especially women*)
    
    any anger or insult directed at any actual persons was wrong on
    my part and i apologize
    
    my remarks on the dynamics of communication (i.e. implicit 'demands'
    etc. ad nauseum) were intended to be purely theoretical, inspired by 
    d!'s question 'why do we get upset when people brag?'; i did not
    mean to imply any moral judgement
    
    i think the general questions of what happens when we say good things 
    about ourselves? how do others react? is it different for women and 
    men in our society? are important ones and i apologize that my harping
    on the sats on consequent intellectualizations may have confused the
    issue and created unnecessary strife.
    
    most importantly, i agree most *emphatically* with suzanne and those 
    that hold that we *should* share our joys and accomplishments here. i
    am distressed that some might not feel that they can no longer do that 
    here because of some of the things that have been said. i honestly
    believe that most of our good sisters and brothers here *are*
    supportive and caring and will join suzanne and me in renewed
    commitment to show that support.
    

    
    "Politeness". "Good manners". "Do unto others..."
    
    These have come up at various places in this string, and I find that
    interesting.
    
    The definition of "good manners" that I was taught was:-
    "Good manners is doing that which will make your companion feel
    comfortable"...
    I think this is nicely flexible - as long as you're "sensitive" enough
    to notice whether your companion is comfortable or not. I reckon most
    of our community here could do that.
    
    So when it comes to "scoring" of various sorts, I wouldn't choose to
    put scores here because I have no way of seeing the discomfort (or
    otherwise) of the individuals who are reading. As I know it can 
    potentially be a loaded subject for some, I'd leave it out.
    
    Just my view...
    'gail
    
    
    

    On the general topic:  Depending on whose rating system you believe
    of the several that have been described here, by IQ measure I am
    somewhere between genius and above average.  My SATs were high enough
    that my college exempted me from core reqs on the basis of the scores
    alone.
    
    The college made a mistake: high intelligence does not mean a person
    knows what is going on!  or what they want to do in life!  I floundered
    around taking whatever courses I felt like for 2.5 years, then quit
    college cause I didn't know what I wanted to study.  I went back after
    3 years of minimum-wage jobs, fell into CS, and here I am,
    Ms Successful: house, good job, avid reader, wide interests, 2 kids, good
    husband, no serious $ problems... generally a happy life.
    
    My sister is another story.  She was singled out for verbal and
    emotional abuse by a 3rd-grade teacher.  The details are too personal
    to post but they had a devastating effect on E.  There are still people
    who hate her and don't know why, it's because they were with her in 3rd
    grade.  She did poorly in school from then on.  Obese.  LOW LOW LOW self
    esteem.  An abortion before 17.  Dropped out of HS. Married and first
    child at 18.  Second child and divorced at 21. Welfare mom.  Bad times
    I won't fully describe, but they included submitting to abuse by a true
    low-life, the only person I've ever actually had murder fantasies
    about.  Finally, she started climbing out.  It is taking her years and
    years, with many false starts; low self esteem includes fear of
    success.
    
    As it happens, my sister's IQ measures higher than mine.
    
    So, I though I'm proud of what I have earned and accomplished, using
    what I was born with, I try to remember that it's partly the luck of
    the draw.
    

    re many, I guess I just misunderstood.  I've always had a difficult
    time understanding other people, getting along with them, relating to
    them, etc.  I've never experienced many of the things that most of you
    seem to have experienced, so I guess I just don't know how it feels.
    
    However, congratulations to all of you on your many life successes.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	Congratulations on your many life successes, too, Lorna.
    
    	I'm happy for you (for whatever good things have come your
    	way.)  
    
    	It's all a matter of perspective.
    

    If it will make anyone feel any better, I would be glad to point out
    some of my many faults:  I am socially inept, not particularly good
    looking, occasionally obnoxious, generally unattractive to the opposite
    sex, a slob, a lousy cook, and somewhat overweight.

    So there.

    -- Mike

    re: .95
    
    aw, you're not a lousy cook, either!  You're nachos are known the world
    around!
    
    Actually, I could disagree with you on several of those points, but
    I'll allow you to wallow around in your faults for a while.  Why
    disabuse you of them?
    
    -Jody

    Mike V -- what a relief!  I'm not the only one!
    
    Sara

    
    re .36:
    
>    ...If *you*
>    really consider yourself to be extremely beautiful maybe it would be
>    better to just quietly feel good about, and the confidence it gives you
>    may reward you more than announcing it to the world would have done.
    
    Lorna, really, anyone who says something like this is a very
    smart person.  I'm often surprised to see you talking like you don't
    think you're smart!
    
    
    re .82:  Great note, Peggy.
    
    The SATs were a bad time for me too.  Notwithstanding Ann Broomhead's
    note about her friend who 'teaches' kids how to take the SATs, I
    never even *heard* there was such a thing when I took them!  And
    believe me, my parents would have never agreed to pay for such a thing.
    My kneejerk response is that those courses are for rich, privileged
    kids.
    
    Though I expected to go to college (and my parents expected me to), it
    certainly wasn't about to be to *anybody's* 'first-choice' college
    because my parents were broke (not to mention naive at the time on these
    things).  The SATs didn't matter to my future because the college I
    would apply to didn't *care* what they were.  So why did I take them?
    Because the HS guidance counselors made sure everybody *thought* they
    had to take them.  So I find talk about them tacky and distasteful.
    To me, it's not just 'how smart' someone is that's being discussed,
    but how privileged, and to a certain degree, how much money their
    family had.
    
    re .83, Bonnie about Fred
    
    After reading about Fred, I'd think he was in the process of
    writing a resume.  Offhand, I couldn't see any other purpose.
    
    

    Lorna,
    
    I have a lot of respect for you for of what you wrote in .93.   I think
    the misunderstanding was both ways.  IMHO there are some who have never
    experienced the things that you have experienced, and don't know how you
    feel, either.  But, instead of admitting that, they want to say that your
    feelings are somehow unjustified.
    
    Understanding differences heals, misunderstanding wounds.
    
    Mary
    

    
    
    When I read this in Ann Quayle's .79, I actually said "Yes!" out loud
    at my desk
    
    >>I very much enjoy hearing of the successes and accomplishments and
    >>choices of others, and invite you all to share yours with me.  If I
    >>find myself feeling envious or hurt, I'll work it out and gain a
    >>feeling of accomplishment that way!
      
    
    I think that's the real value that this whole conversation serves.
    I don't think it's *wrong* to post SAT scores (or IQs, GREs, etc.)
    where *wrong* means: you ought to go to jail, feel ashamed, or some other
    horrible thing.  But I think it's valuable to us all to know that
    some people felt offended or wounded or angry when they read notes
    where some us posted some of that information.
    
    If someone tells me that something I did or said injured her, I have an
    opportunity (although I admit that sometimes this kind of thing is hard
    to hear.)  I can look at the injury she describes, and ask myself, "do
    I have any part of this?"  If the answer is no (and/or if I have no
    investment in the relationship with this person), I can skip it and
    move on.  If I can see where I might have a part in the injury, I can
    examine it.  What did I do that caused all or some of this injury? 
    What good thing do I get from this behavior that caused the injury?
    Can I modify my behavior in a way that reduces or eliminates the injury
    and still get what I want from the behavior?  If not, is a compromise
    possible?  
    
    This process of self examination is very important to me.  I am just
    learning to share some of my achievements, and it's important to me;
    I don't want to give that up.  But I don't want to cause injury. 
    Lorna's feedback about this has helped me think about how I can share
    my success with greater sensitivity to those you may not have had the
    opportunities that I have had.  
    
    I always cringe when I see folks saying something that amounts to 
    "Sir/Madam your words are hateful.  I demand that you retract them
    and issue an apology to me and my heirs"  -- exaggeration intended.
    I mean, where does that get us?  Why not say what we want to say and
    accept the feedback that comes our way, and respond to it as openly as
    we can?  That makes it possible for everyone to grow and learn.
    
    Justine
           

    	Let's face it - it's so easy to hurt people's feelings unwittingly
    	that it's going to be almost impossible to avoid it 100% of the
    	time no matter what we do.  It's no one's fault.

    	In my own case for SATs - I took them for practice (intending to
    	take the real set in my senior year.)  The day we had the practice
    	SATs, a good friend of mine was killed in a car accident on the
    	way home from the exams.  She was severed into two pieces and my
    	whole high school went to a very traumatic funeral for her a few
    	days later.  There was an open casket - it was one of the worst
    	experiences of all our lives up to that point.  I was 16.

    	When the time came for the real SATs, I refused to go.  A lot of
    	my friends refused also.  It was just too painful.

    	My parents had just spent a zillion dollars sending my older sister
    	to a very nice Catholic women's college, so they were not terribly
    	enthused about sending a third child through college anyway.  So I
    	decided not to go.

    	Then I had a baby (Ryan) and decided that I needed an education.
    	My practice SAT scores were good enough for the state university
    	I attended - as a state resident, my tuition cost $81 per 3 1/2
    	month semester.  It was a rough 4 years trying to raise a baby
    	(and support him by myself while also being a full-time student)
    	- but we made it through.  I graduated with a BA in Philosophy.

    	My parents aren't poor, but I certainly don't feel as though I
    	had any special privileges or advantages when it came to SATs
    	and college.

    	Also, I have my own reasons for disliking mention of SATs.

    	I don't see much point in making anyone else feel like shit for
    	mentioning their scores to me, though.  It isn't their fault
    	that I've got a particular hot button about it.  It's a private
    	matter.

    	I know someone who is very sensitive about birthdays - she cringes
    	whenever someone makes a big deal over someone else's birthday.
    	She and her father had the same birthday - he was diagnosed with
    	cancer on one of their birthdays (then he died two years later on
    	their birthday.)  

    	How is anyone supposed to know when someone has a hot button like
    	this?  It can't be helped to step on these sometimes.

    	Would it be "fair" for this woman to get mad and sarcastic at
    	people for wishing someone a Happy Birthday?  She doesn't.
    	She simply understands that no matter how long birthdays bother
    	her, she'll never be able to stop the rest of the world from
    	celebrating them.  So she just accepts it (and works her feelings
    	out in her own way.)

    	Once people realize she has a problem with birthdays, they don't
    	celebrate them around her.

    	Once people in this conference found out that some people have hot
    	buttons about SAT scores, the lists of scores slowed down to a stop.
    	I just don't understand why the people who reported their scores
    	needed to keep being beaten upon (as if they should have known that
    	it would be upsetting to others.)

    	It isn't fair to berate people after the fact for something they
    	did unwittingly to press someone else's hot button.  It also
    	isn't fair to refuse to stop this berating when others come along
    	to point out that the berators have now touched on a whole NEW
    	hot button themselves (by engaging in this berating.)

     I think in note 13 where this all began, that somebody made
     mention/referenced/questions a person's need to mention something
     like an SAT score.  The note further asked if the person was so
     insecure about themselves that they felt they just had to mention
     the score, being afraid that his/her intelligence would otherwise
     be overlooked.  Could it also be said that perhaps some people 
     who find such mentionings to be 'rude bragging' may also be insecure,
     and react negatively because their own insecurities lead them to
     read such a comment as a personal affront to their own abilities?
    
     BTW- Suzanne C-  I have agreed with all your comments up to note
     .70, when I decided to add my own 2 cents.  
    
    Christine

    re .95, that's why I want to meet you, Mike.  I figure it's one time in
    my life when I won't be dissapointed. :-)
    
    Lorna
    
    P.S.  What was Fred's (.83) favorite color?  Did it mention that?
    

    There are many ways of blowing your own horn...some folks might say
    something extremely negative about themselves around lots of people
    and sit back while their friends tell everyone how nice, how smart or
    how attractive they are.
    
    People need to share their accomplishments, whatever they are.  I might
    not agree with the individual but the important piece of success is it
    only happens when the person feels successful.
    
    In anything moderation is the key... 
    
    
    
    

    >In anything moderation is the key...
    
    Aha!
    
    I think this is the **real** source of disagreement between me and many
    people in this discussion.  I have yet to be convinced that moderation
    is the right response to all things.
    
    D!

Note 229.77                       "Touchstones"                         77 of 93
HEFTY::CHARBONND "scorn to trade my place"             1 line   3-OCT-1990 13:02

    Moderation in all things. Including moderation.

    Re .80 and .81:  Thanks, Suzanne and E Grace, to me; joy shared is joy
    doubled!  (And, quite often, grief shared is grief halved.)
    
    Re .100:  Well said, Justine.  I'm glad to have sparked your train of
    thought!  (If that isn't boastful.)  (Gee, I didn't mean for it to be
    boastful.)
    
    :)
    aq
    

    i feel the same way as d! on this one....
    
    nothing exceeds like excess.
    
    whether that is positive or negative is left as an exercise
    for the pupil.
    

    
    Who was it that said...
    "Too much of a good thing can be wonderful"?
    
    Mae West?
    
    

    <--(.107)
    
�    Re .80 and .81:  Thanks, Suzanne and E Grace, to me; joy shared is joy
�    doubled!  (And, quite often, grief shared is grief halved.)
    
    Ann, I didn't know you're scots!  :-)   My grandmum had a wee saying
    I'll never forget:
    
    	Share your joy, your joy will double
    	Share your sorrow, halve your trouble.
    
    						=maggie

>	Oh yeah, and did I mention being offered a full scholarship to
>    the Naval Academy at Annapolis, 
    
    	Everyone at the boat school on the bay (as my USNA alumni
    brother calls it) has a full scholarship. If my brother make it
    it can't be too hard. :-)
    
    			Alfred

>	Oh yeah, and did I mention being offered a full scholarship to
>    the Naval Academy at Annapolis, 
    
    
    WOW! and jes think, you could have been one of those "zeros" that know
    absolutely nothing about naval operations and gotten paid hansomely for
    it tah boot!

    It's a shame to let this note go dormant.
    
    Perhaps my oddest hobby is inventing aphorisms.  It certainly is
    not one that leads to a surfeit of results; I've only created
    four in my life.  Here they are, with commentary:
    
    You can't get milk from a dead mouse.
    
    				I never said they were great.  This is a
    				cross between "You can't get blood from
    				a stone/turnip." and "Don't kill the
    				goose that lays the golden eggs."  It means
    				"Don't overtax the peasants."
    
    A bird on the wrist is worth two in the fist.
    
    				It rhymes.  The others are alliterative.
    				It is a follow-on to "A bird in the hand
    				is worth two in the bush."  It means that 
    				a willing partner is better than two
    				unwilling ones.  It also means that a
    				trained hawk is more valuable than any two
    				game birds it can catch.
    
    Gratitude is a thin garment.
    
    				This is the weakest of the lot.  It's a
    				warning against expecting gratitude to
    				serve as a substitute for love or friendship.
    
    Only a shadow never sees the sun.
    
    				Only in bad fiction is anyone ever 100% evil.
    				This is my favorite.  I devised it while
    				contemplating the Nature of Evil -- as
    				represented by Darth Vader.  (This was
    				before "Return of the Jedi" came out.)
    				A friend of mine had it translated into
    				Japanese; it'll be interesting to see if
    				it ever comes back.
    
    						Ann B.

    I passed BSST, 
    went home, 
    completed two proposals in two weeks, 
    took all 7 of the SSST books with me to Puerto Rico to visit my parents 
    over the holidays, 
    sat on the front porch & studied every day, 
    talked  alot with my Dad without crying (he still doesn't know he has 
    terminal cancer), 
    talked even more with my Mom (expecially late at night after my Dad had 
    gone to sleep), 
    got back Friday night, 
    spent Saturday unpacking, doing laundry and packing, 
    left Sunday at 7am to drive to Boyelston (5hrs.), 
    settled in, 
    took the SSST exam Monday morning and passed.
    
    Miriam
    

Miriam:

RAH RAH!

Way to go!!

D!

    D!
    
    	Thank you!!!!  
    
    
    Miriam

    Lots of big hugs and "B-R-A-V-O"s, Miriam...
    
    Having lived through a husband dying of terminal brain cancer,
    I know how hard it is not to cry when you are with your loved one,
    but your strength makes it easier on their pain.....When you finally
    cry together after reality finally sets in with  your Dad, he will
    know just how dearly and bravely you have loved him....
    
    Have courage......"This too shall pass."
    
    You have my love, and my prayers....You are a brave lady...
    
    Such a fine accomplishment to pass everything with so much on your
    mind and in your heart.....
    
    One who truly understands........
    
    Barb

Hugs, Miriam!

Kathy

              Millions of Thanks and Major Hugs to all of you!
    
    BSST = Basic Sales Support Training = 2 weeks in New Hampshire
    Composed of lecture, role-playing (negotiating skills), homework reading 
    and two formal solo presentations before your instructors.
    
    Then they mail you 6 books (Software, Hardware, Services, Networking,
    Glossary & Tests-for the other 5 books) and you pick up the T&N
    (Telecom and Networks) Buyers guide and study for two weeks.
    
    SSST = Software Sales Support Training = 2 weeks in Boyelston
    Monday morning when you arrive in class, you take a 2 hr. test on the 
    topics covered in the above listed books.  Then you take a 40 minute
    break while they grade the exams.  If you don't pass the test, you
    disappear.   Literally.  There were 3 blank spots on the tables in
    the room after the break, even their name tags were gone.  
    
    The rest of the two weeks, they cover in depth, the information covered
    in the books as well as additional information.  There are 3 quizes,
    a configuration to do in Xsel (for your certification) and a formal
    group presentation on your last day in class.   
    
    Both of my parents helped me study.  They asked me the questions in the
    test book and made sure I wasn't just sitting there watching the
    hummingbirds feed on the flowers.  It also gave them a better idea
    about what I actually DO in my life and why I read so much.
    
    Miriam
    

    Good for you, Miriam!!! Congrats!
    
    Barb

    
    I have an unbribed witness who can attest to the fact that I broke:
    
    3,000,000 points with 5 balls on Black Knight 2000
    6,000,000 points with 3 balls on Fun House
    
    -Jody
    

    Wait!  Wait!  Oh, Wizard, oh Great One!   I have the horn here for you
    to blo....errrr....toot!
    
    
    Yay-es, I can witness to the fact that it was done!  It was better
    than..well....*almost* as good as......ummmmmmm.....it was pretty cool.
    
    
    When can we go again, Wizard?  WhenWhenWhen?
    
    
    E "Tommy" Grace

    Jody, AAAAARRRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!!!!! You did that on Black Knoght 2000?
    I was just getting good at that game and they took it out of Bob's
    Pizza in Nashua. They replaced it with Tomacat F-14. I reached
    3,596,800, which was good enough for 4th place. I'm the only one to
    reach a high score on it. The other postings were on the machine when
    it arrived. Missed 3rd by 3,200 points. 
    
    Phil, who has a roll of quarters in his pocket and will stop at Bob's
    on the way home tonight to eat 2 slices of pizza, a large diet Pepsi,
    and feed the whole roll into the pinball machine.

    Fun House is a great pinball machine.  I even got to replay one of my
    balls because it drained before hitting anything.
    
    Lisa/high score 100000

-by Cary Smith, special to Valley Daily News

Community arts groups occupy a unique place in our cultural life. For many, 
they are the first point of contact with the arts- serving as a training 
ground for young artists and performers and bringing new experiences to a wide 
range of audiences.

The Rainier Symphony is such a community group, whose avowed purpose is to 
bring symphonic music to the Kent Valley. It is doing so with a new program- 
the 'Symphonic Sampler,' a four-community '1991 mini-tour' with performances 
in Sumner tonight, in Enumclaw Saturday night and in Kent April 6.

Last week's opening performance, help in Tahoma Junior High's acoustically 
live auditorium, was community in every sense of the word. Players and members 
of the audience mingled, while home-baked goodies were available in the lobby- 
offered by enthusiastic volunteers.

And thge small but appreciative audience was composed of folks of all ages, 
including lots of kids and a 3-year-old who enthusiastically beat time on the 
seat before him, conversing in a stage whisper that could be heard in the 
farthest corner of the auditorium. All of which added to the feeling of 
community.

Like most community orchestras, the symphony's players are a mix of students, 
young professionals, part-time and older, often retired, musicians. The 
difficult job of welding these disparate elements into a choesive whole is 
that of conductor Joseph Pollard White, now in his fifth season with the 
Rainier Symphony.

White leads the orchestra with quiet authority, a minimum of theatrics and a 
clear beat. His 'sampler' approach to programming offers something for 
everyone- but with a difference. Rather than relying on old chestnuts and war 
horses, he has chosen a balanced and interesting program with works from the 
18th to 20th centuries.

The ever-popular Overture to 'L'Italiana in Algieri,' by Gioacchino Rossini, 
opened the program with gusto and good high spirits.

    The Concerto in C Major for 'Cello and Orchestra, by Franz Joseph Haydn, 
    featured principal 'cellist Tim Finholt as soloist. Written in 1765,
    the C major is the first of only two cello concertos composed by Haydn,
    yet amply illustrates his mastery of the form.
    
    Finholt displayed an aggressive, muscular tone throughout, coupled with 
    excellent intonation and a strong rhythmic sense. Although the first 
    movement cadenza was a bit rough-hewn, needing more space and time, 
    his involvement with the music seemed total.

All in all, the talented young cellist gave a near virtuoso performance, with 
an interpretation that seemed more romantic than classic, relying on a heavy 
bow and a big sound rather than delicacy, control and contrast.

White proved himself an adept accompanist, keeping the orchestra under firm 
control and maintaining constant contact with his soloist.

A welcoe surprise was 'The Unanswered Question,' by the original American 
composer Charles Ives- a work of startling originality.

The performance, obviously a labor of love, was beautifully handled by 
conductor and orchestra. Kudos to Robert Gale, trumpet, Ellen Bercovitz, flute 
Della Friend, oboe and Debbie Couch, clarinet.

The evening's major orchestral offering was Variations on an Original Theme 
'Enigma' by Edward Elgar. Almost kaleidoscopic in its constantly shifting 
moods and orchestral colors, the episodic composition is no easy piece to 
play.

That orchestra and conductor handled it as well as they did is much to their 
credit. There were many felicitous moments in the performance- most noteworthy 
the beautiful and majestic ninth variation and the rousing finale.

		--valley daily news 3/22/91
    		(reprinted w/o permission)

>	Joseph Pollard White, now in his fifth season with the 
>	Rainier Symphony.

	YAY!  And a grand job he does, too.  You have won my
	respect and admiration.  The Rainier Symphony is, to
	speak idiomatically, the balls!

	I possess a photo of our esteemed conductor that may
	be blackmail material.  Oddly enough, it's published
	along with the program.  Anyone want to see Joe White
	circa 1979?  Propeller lapels, Farrah Fawcett hair,
	and all.

	Carla

    ...but now you should work to keep that cellist from rushing that
    cadenza.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    :-)
    
    Post the tape soon!
    'gail

Yes!

Put my name on the list to hear the tape.

Martha

<->    <<< Note 497.123 by LEZAH::BOBBITT 

	Gee Jody,

	I am _amazed_.  I don't think I ever managed to stop on an even
    million.  Good luck going for the next digit   10^7    MKowa