Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    	As awful as it is to live through the cycles involved in an
    	abusive relationship, it helps to recognize the pattern.
    
    	My friend found some comfort in knowing that the flow of
    	events in her abusive relationship were part of a larger
    	phenomenon.
    
    	It helped her to do what she needed to get the abuser out
    	of her life.
    

    
    	By the way, I like to use the word "target" instead of "victim"
    	because the person on the receiving end of abuse in not helpless,
    	as a lifetime condition.
    
    	The abuse can be stopped if the pattern is recognized (and other
    	steps are taken.)
    

    
    	By the way, as closely as most abusive relationships follow 
    	similar patterns, it makes me wonder why?
    
    	Are these patterns learned (if so, from where?)
    
    	Can these patterns be broken after being established between
    	the same sets of people (if the abuser gets help?)
    

    
    	It's also occurred to me that these patterns can appear in more
    	than just a husband/wife relationship.  Perhaps some people here
    	witnessed this in their parents' or siblings' relationships or
    	in other places and times?
    	
    	What is the source of this pattern, I wonder?
    

    
    	Suzanne,
    
    	2 weekends ago I talked with a woman who is (IMO)
    	the "classic" battered woman.
    
    	She described her experiences as "cyclical" as well,
    	and she specifically talked about the "build-up" leading
    	to another attack after a sugery make-up from the prior
    	one.  
    
    	(I think you described that as "stage 2").
    
    	She had such fear in her eyes.  It was a bit overwhelming to
    	hear.  (her ex- has made death threats; she has restraining
    	orders, she _is_ separated from him now, etc...)
    
    						nancy b.
    

    
    	-- edp,
    
    	I can't believe you said that.
    						nancy b.
    

Suzanne,

Thanks for providing the information in .0.

I think it's important information for all of us, including
targets (good word choice). 

Kathy

    nancy b
    
    I can believe it....
    
    he's messed up every other conversation, why not this one....
    (said in a *very* sarcastic, wry, and sick to death tone)
    
    

    Please see also:
    
    Womannotes-V1
    109 - domestic abuse and judges
    456 - battered women
    460 - why do battered women stay
    660 - need info: support gorup for abused women
    754 - battered women's hotline in Mass.
    
    Womannotes-V2
    220 - physical abuse
    841 - a long questiona bout emotional abuse
    
    Human_Relations
    803 - what can I do when a friend is being abused
    
    -Jody
    

    I never had a chance to talk to my mother about the battering against
    her that I witnessed, from her second husband.  I had distanced myself
    from her in interest of my own survival, and didn't live with her after
    I was 9.
    
    This question of cycles is one that I learned in 1978 in a series of
    classes at a women's shelter.
    
    But one thing I wonder about:  it seems to me that, following
    battering, there is a feeling of very close intimacy, and that the
    desire for this intimacy may be a part of why the battering is
    permitted to go on.  
    
    Briana

	From my experience it would seem that after the battering, one
	needs some sort of comfort from a person you love - who happens
	sometimes to have been the one who battered you.  This leads to
	a confusion of who to trust and who not to trust.  This is
	espcially true if the other people you love (parents, friends,
	or even children) don't know about the battering or will not
	believe it is happening and so are not a source of comfort.

	This then tightens the cycle, making it even more dangerous for
	the target.

	_peggy

    	RE: .12  Peggy

    	Good point!

    	Your note reminded me of something else - the worst hell about 
    	being the target of abuse:

    	The target tries to stay calm and not react during the final stage
    	before the violence (hoping to hold off the confrontation, perhaps
    	permanently.)  But it doesn't work.

    	The longer the target ignores the nipping and tries to stay calm,
    	the longer this stage (approaching violence) will last.  Then,
    	when the blow-up does happen, the target still gets the full dose
    	of abuse (plus recriminations about whatever the target did that
    	could not be classed as perfect calm behavior.)

    	Meanwhile, the target also begins to be subject to severe abuse
    	from any family and friends who see the target at this point
    	(without understanding the dynamics about why the target is
    	angry or upset.)

    	Sometimes the abuse heaped on the target by family and friends is
    	almost as bad (emotionally, at least) as the violence of the
    	abuser.  Most people treat the targets of violence as if they
    	asked for it - and condemn the targets no matter what they do
    	in response to being abused.

    	The main thing the abuser wants is a reaction from the target -
    	but if the target withholds the reaction, the awful nipping
    	behavior goes on that much longer (making the end abuse even
    	worse.)

    	Thus, it's a Catch-22 for the target - as abuse is heaped from
    	all sides and the target feels trapped waiting for the next
    	round of the cycle to begin.

    	In the end, the target usually ends up looking worse than the
    	abuser to almost everyone (except the few people who really
    	understand the dynamics of the experience.)

    	RE: .14  Herb

    	Sure, but keep in mind that most targets are already considered
    	abusive by their abusers (and many of their family and friends
    	who don't understand the dynamics of the situation.)

    	The abuser very often feels justified in committing abuse ("She
    	really knows how to piss me off" or "She's a bitch") - and the
    	family/friends see the results of abuse (which make the target 
    	look crazy and/or as if the target really did cause the abuse.)

    	If the power levels are equal in a relationship, mutual abuse is
    	possible (but the dynamics are far different.)

    	The cycles described in the basenote are about relationships where
    	one person has some level of power over the other (even if others
    	don't always realize that this disparity exists.)

    I have often wondered why women stay in abusive relationships. 
    "Heck," I thought, "Leave! Get out! What's the *matter* with ya?!"
    
    I think I understand a little better, now. It must be very difficult,
    when the only support you get is from others who are abused also. Until
    one can get advice from someone who *was* in the situation and 
    successfully got out of it, one has a difficult time envisioning more
    than The Problem. The Solution seems pretty nebulous.
    
    --DE
    

    
    	RE: .16  Dawn
    
    	Bingo.
    

    	Getting back to the basenote...

    	One of the instances of abuse that I witnessed myself (and there
    	were many other people present, as well) - this happened years
    	ago (when I was good friends with the wife of a man who worked
    	with my husband up in Denver)...
    
    	My friend was 8 1/2 months pregnant and not feeling well.  Her
    	husband wanted to go to a party and wouldn't take no for an answer
    	when she asked to stay home.  She was pleasant at the party, but
    	very quiet.  She didn't even say much to me.

    	After awhile, her husband start nipping at her for being too quiet
    	- he said she was being "a drag" and was ruining the party for
    	everyone else.  No one really minded if she was quiet - but he kept
    	telling her that she was being a drag.  She tried to smile and start
    	a conversation with me - but he was already mad.  She'd been a drag
    	already, so it was too late to change it, in his mind.

    	He started wrestling with her (in a seemingly playful way) on the
    	couch - he was laughing and held her arms behind her back.  She
    	was obviously uncomfortable - he was leaning heavily on her 8 1/2
    	months pregnant stomach during the wrestling and she was in very
    	quiet tears.  I reached over to touch her arm, and my own husband
    	pulled me back - "Stay out of this."  No one else at the party said
    	anything.

    	They left shortly after that.

    	My friend had the baby two days later.  She turned 17 years old
    	three weeks after that.

    	Her husband (my husband's friend) never stopped telling the story
    	about how much he hated the fact that she could be such a drag at
    	parties.  He often left her home alone for this reason, he said.

    	By the way, the reason why my descriptions of the various stages
    	of abuse *carefully* avoid mentioning the sex of the abuser (or 
    	specific forms of abuse) most of the time is that I don't want 
    	to be accused of insulting a specific sex.

    	Thanks for everyone's patience while reading language that is
    	sometimes cumbersome.

    
    	As a former target of violent abuse myself (from my ex-husband,)
    	I remember how much it helped me to discover that the dynamics of
    	my relationship were part of the larger problem of abuse - with
    	the same patterns many, many, many other targets had experienced.
    
    	It was the first step (for me) on the road to forgiving myself
    	for having lived as an abused person in that situation.
    

    	Getting back to the basenote...

    	Is it possible to break the patterns of abuse (when the target
    	is still within the reach of the abuser?)

    	One way to break a link in the pattern is to refuse to buy into
    	the "kiss and make up" stage (even though it means a temporary
    	end to the violent attacks.)  This is a tough one, because the
    	abuser's behavior becomes much more difficult to predict - and
    	the abuse can continue for some time this way.

    	Studies have shown that the only sure way to end the pattern of
    	an abusive relationship is to end it.  The abuser must be put in
    	a position where the target is no longer within easy reach.

    	Most violent/abusive relationships involve marriage and/or children,
    	so it's not a quick or easy fix.  But in most cases, it's the one
    	with the best odds for success.

    	Of course, abusers sometimes go back looking for targets long after
    	restraining orders and divorces have gone through - in some cases,
    	the abuser succeeds in killing the person who was formerly abused.

	One of the worst things about being a target, is that you are
	one for life, at least in the eyes of that abuser.  You can
	never be sure that "they won't try to get you" for leaving,
	for calling the police, for not talking on the telephone, you
	live with this for ever or until they are dead.

	One of the reasons for not ending a relationship that is abusive
	is that the target can not be sure that the abuse will end with
	the relationship.  The target loses any control over the abuser
	that they might have had.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Without options there are no choices

    
    i know that whenever i have fallen into this pattern (yes, as the
    abuser....pretty low level stuff, not violent, but still abusive)
    it was important for my partner and i to discover (and it really
    was a discovery, though it seems obvious) that i was primarily
    seeking attention and was being manipulative in asking for it.
    i was, in effect, asking her to be a mind-reader and assuage my
    feelings in the exact way and time that i wanted- without telling
    her that's what i wanted. of course, all these vague 'nips' elicited
    a confused rejection from her, that incited me to more outrageous
    outbursts (and more evasive- and resentful- behaviour from her)
    until i exploded (usually hysterically, much broken china, and
    usually about something else all together). the answer was for me 
    to say, 'i need you to pay attention to me'. which allowed her to 
    say, 'ok' or 'aha! can you give me a few minutes?' or eventually, 
    'no, i can't help you right now'. 
    

    
    	Although I was thinking specifically of violent abuse when
    	I wrote the basenote (per my words "the recognizable patterns 
    	of abuse in violent relationships" and "Abuse works in cycles, 
    	so it's hard to know where to begin, but I'll start with the 
    	aftermath of a violent attack:")...
    
    	There are lots of kinds of abuse - some very small, and other
    	not-so-small kinds of systematic abuse that spans across our
    	culture.  Aside from being the targets of violent abuse, women
    	are often subject to the kinds of systematic cultural abuse
    	that most people don't acknowledge and/or recognize.
    
    	Thanks for all the helpful/interesting comments so far.

    
    	Getting back to the basenote...
    
    	

    Suzanne mentioned that the target, eventually goaded beyond
    endurance, will strike back at the abuser.  What she didn't mention
    is that the target learns what sets off the abuser, and thus
    learns what not to do, BUT also learns just what to do to
    trigger the abuse.
    
    This is the explanation for why so many abused children can behave
    so absolutely fiendishly.
    
    						Ann B.
    
    P.S.  I read up on child abuse to deal with an adult friend who
    had suffered from it since babyhood.

    
    when the target learns how to trigger the abuser, however, it
    does not give them equal power in the situation. at best, it
    allows them to decide *when* the explosion will happen and
    occasionally to moderate the severity through that modicum
    of control. unfortunately, the abuser recognises this as
    manipulation on the part of the target and it eventually
    infuriates them more.
    

    
    We can't know what the motives are of any writer, and I think this
    topic as outlined in .0 is an interesting one and seems to hold the
    interest of other folks, as well.  Please restrict replies in this 
    string to the topic of patterns of abuse.  Other kinds of replies 
    will be moved elsewhere or deleted.
    
    Justine

    	RE: .30  Ann

    	Yes - it's true that targets do sometimes trigger the abuse -
    	usually it's done in the hope of getting the inevitable beating
    	over with (rather than living through the suspense of not knowing
    	when it is coming.)

    	A friend of mine (at a shelter for abused women) was very surprised
    	to find how common this is, in fact.

    	Sometimes, the psychological torture of knowing that violent abuse is
    	imminent is worse than facing the actual beating.

    	One of the more positive things about our current society is that
    	the patterns of abuse are more visible now than they were years
    	ago.  When abusers engage in their endless denials about their
    	actions, it's far more common in our society these days for the
    	characteristics of abuse to be recognizable.

    	A year or two ago, a couple was having a fight near a large car-
    	wash business - and I was quite heartened to see how many people
    	recognized what was going on (in spite of the man's repeated
    	assassinations of the woman's character - in public, no less.)

    	It was quite encouraging to see how quickly people saw the
    	situation for what it was.

    	A definite sign of hope.

in re .0

You may have been thinking of violent physical abuse when this was written, but 
the cycles/stages of the patterns you describe are a mirror of the relationship
between my mother and myself ... and she has physically struck me 7 times in
35 years of life.  Her weapon of choice has always been refined emotional
torture.

Silence prolongs the waiting.  The longer the interregnum, the more severe the 
punishment.  Failing to react in a way that allows her to broadcast my 
inate evil has brought her to actually physically injure herself when she
finally cannot hold the hatred in any longer.

It's been more than two years since I have seen my mother.  I do talk to her on
the phone fairly frequently, but I tend to cut conversations short when she
begins to settle in with a will to get me to hurt her feelings so that she
can punish me.

My mother in the 'aftermath' stage can be quite bountiful in her remorse and
contrition.  Once she felt so bad for reducing me to quivering jelly that she
gave me my sister's car [yes, the parents held title but they'd bought it for
Wendy's use].  She has sent flowers, loving cards, and, once, 7 yards of antique
China silk.

My acceptance or acknowledgement of any gift, tangible or intangible, in this
stage allows her to repeat the cycle.  It cost me a lot not to respond to her
loving or giving overtures because it seems heartless to refuse to acknowledge 
a hand held out in friendship.  Yet experience has shown me that it is only
a prelude to hurt.

I am not entirely happy in my decision to limit our interraction, but I've
certainly been happi_er_ since I made it and stuck to it.  Yes, I can forgive
freely and without reservation, but I will not go back.  If I did, I would find
it hard to forgive myself.

  Annie

    
    	RE: .37  Annie
    
    	Refusing to "buy into" the sugary times after abuse seems like
    	a definite step in breaking the cycle - 
    
    	It's all the tougher to do when it's a family member -
    
    	The cycles do seem to hold up in a variety of abusive situations
    	(something I've noticed since I heard about them 10 years ago.)
    
    	Thanks for your reply!
    

    RE: Some back about the target being able to time the abuse.
    
    I used to cause it when I was a kid and had planned something neat
    to do.  I knew that if I got it over with, I'd maybe be all healed
    by the time the thing I wanted to do arrived.
    
    For example, I did competition swimming which necessitated lots of
    exposed skin (and therefore exposed bruises).  I would not show for the
    meets if the bruises were too embarrassingly visible. So, about two
    weeks before a big meet, I'd purposely get caught doing something bad
    (reading after 10, washing my hair, breaking a dish while doing the
    dishes, getting the wrong grade) and take the inevitable beating.  If I
    was lucky, it wouldn't be too bad (nothing would get broken) and the
    bruises would fade in time to swim. 
    
    Totally bizarre coping mechanism, I realize as I write this.  You'll
    be glad to know that as soon as I was old enough to get working
    papers at 15, I left home.  
                                        

    
    I have also read that one of the ways is to stop abuse before it gets 
    too bad..that is stop it the first time.
    Very early in my marriage, my husband slapped me. I screamed out really
    loud, loud enough for neighbours to hear (we lived in an apartment),
    then went to the phone to call the police and he stopped me. 
    I waited until he fell asleep, then I called the police. They came
    and asked me if I wanted them to take him away. I said YES.
    As he was leaving, he said." You love me and you're doing this to me"
    I replied." You love me and you hit me"
    
    To this day...after 8 years of marriage, he has NEVER hit me again.
    
    Also, local statistics here in Maryland show that first offenders of
    spousal abuse who are arrested most often do not abuse again.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    To this day..after almost 10 years of marriage, he has NEVER hit me
    again.

    	RE: .40

    	Stopping the abusive cycles from starting in the first place *does*
    	work sometimes - you're quite right!

    	A problem with it, though, is that the abuser can sometimes find
    	targets other than the main target to hurt - it's the "If I can't
    	can give you the pain directly, I'll hurt someone you care about to
    	draw you into the cycle."  It's not very uncommon to see an abuser
    	redirect the abuse to someone else as a way to manipulate (through
    	emotional blackmail) the ultimate target.

    	In my case, when I started withdrawing from the cycle of abuse in
    	my marriage, my ex beat up my 10 year old son very badly - including
    	pulling large chunks of hair out of his head and causing both eyes
    	(and the face below his eyes) to be quite blackened with bruises.
    	
    	I was too deeply entrenched in the cycle to call the police - now,
    	it seems so clear to me that it was the first thing I should have
    	done.  At the time, the only thing I could do was to tend to Ryan's
    	wounds and to call my ex's father to tell him what had happened (so
    	that my ex's family would stop trying to claim the abuse wasn't 
    	true.)  My ex's father came by to see Ryan and could barely keep
    	from crying (even though Ryan happened to be in a happy mood at the
    	moment.)  The condition of Ryan's face was a picture worth a 1000
    	words to him.  I'd never let them see me in this condition.

    	The marriage ended about two weeks after Ryan's one beating - I never,
    	ever left Ryan alone with my ex again after this first/last assault.
    	I wouldn't even go to my bedroom while my ex was in the apartment
    	at large - I kept myself somewhere in the physical space between
    	my ex and Ryan at all times (even if it meant waiting hours to go
    	to the bathroom.)  

    	The next time my ex *did* threaten Ryan, I stood in front of my
    	child and challenged my husband to kill me - I told him that the
    	only way he would ever get to Ryan was by stepping over my dead
    	body.  I sent Ryan on a flight to my parents in Hawaii the next
    	day.  My ex knew I'd contacted a lawyer - he moved out the night
    	my son left - my ex's father came over to make sure there was no
    	problem during the move (and kept my ex's best friend from stealing
    	my television and other assorted items.)

    	While it may be enough to know how to defend yourself from violent
    	attack, sometimes the situation develops into something more
    	difficult - what to do when the attacks are directed at others
    	when you aren't conveniently vulnerable.  Make no mistake - the
    	attacks are still against the primary target (evident by the
    	fact that the abuser still blames the primary target for "causing"
    	the abuse against ALL the various targets.)

    	Watching the abuser turn the abuse on alternate targets is one of
    	the more difficult aspects of the experience (as a target.)

    Suzanne
    
    Some weeks back I was home sick and happened to be bored enough to
    watch a t.v. talk show. The subject was exactly what you mention
    in your last note, the abuser finding other targets. The featured
    guests were a woman who had been abused by her ex-husband and
    the woman's mother who had been raped by the ex when he couldn't
    find the daughter.
    
    Bonnie

    
    re. -1,-2
    
    or the man who murdered his own daughter because she wouldn't devulge
    her mothers whereabouts...
    
    

    	Another (famous) example of alternate targets... (an extreme one.)
    	Formfeed provided for anyone who doesn't wish to read about this
    	case of multiple murder:
    
    	Does anyone remember the man in wine country in northern California
    	who got some court papers served to him by his ex-wife (for failing
    	to pay child support) so he killed a man at work, went home and
    	killed his current wife, kidnaped his three small daughters, then 
    	killed his mother-in-law, his 12 year old sister-in-law (I believe she 
    	was also raped before being killed,) then disappeared.

    	They found the three daughters at a garbage dump ravine the next
    	day - all three of their throats were cut, but miraculously, the
    	three year old daughter survived.  When asked who hurt her and
    	her sisters, the three year old said, "Daddy."

    	By the way, when they caught the man who committed the murders 
    	described in my note, I saw an interview with him on the plane
    	back to northern California.

    	Although his defense is that his violence was induced by cocaine,
    	the video of his interview was quite revealing.

    	He smiled at the camera - when asked if he had any regrets about
    	the murders, he said, "Not really."  The casual nature of his tone
    	and demeanor was one of the most chilling things I've ever seen.

    I'm another who stopped the abuse at the first instance.  My ex left
    the house within a half hour of the first time he tried to hit me, at
    my suggestion, and we never occupied the same space at the same time
    from that moment forward.
    
    I've often wondered where I would have ended up if *at that moment* I
    had been without any of the following, all a result of the women's lib
    movement of the late '60's:
    
    	A job with sufficient income to support me and my son *without* any
    	contribution from my ex.
    
    	Parental support for leaving a relationship which was causing me to
    	be fearful for my own safety.
    
    	Social codes and mores which told my ex that he *did not* own me or
    	my reactions.
    
    	Property and assets of my own, which I could use without the
    	permission, signature or input of my ex.
    
    	My own credit rating, and ability to negotiate contracts.
    
    	Social acceptance of divorce as a viable way of dealing with some
    	kinds of marital problems.
    
    Sometimes we need to recognize and give credit to the changes in the
    social milieu which have made it possible for targets to even
    contemplate stopping the violence, at any stage.
    
    Alison

    Classical ALLTIME low.
    
    WOW!

    
    I stoppped the pattern by moving out in the middle of the day while he
    was at work.
    
    Cq

    The reader is welcome to re-read and compare replies
    
    	.3, .18&.19, .23, .28, .31, and .49.
    
    I find the contrasts between .28 and .3 and between .28 and .23
    especially poignant.
    
    						Ann B.

    	Getting back to the discussion yesterday about the murders...

    	When you're the target in an abusive situation, how do you know
    	the lengths to which the abuser will go to "win" against you -
    	in other words, is the abuser capable of killing you?

    	This is a difficult thing to know for sure.  The dynamics of
    	abuse are such that the abuser has a strong need to establish
    	or maintain power over the target (often through intimidation)
    	- if the intimidation doesn't work, the abuser could resort to
    	life-threatening measures that could continue even after the 
    	target has managed to leave the immediate proximity of the
    	abuser.

    	It's important to keep this in mind when confronting an abuser
    	- especially if there are children in the family.

    	There's no way to know what kind of danger the whole family is
    	in when an abuser goes to the limits of his wrath.

    
    re..not knowing what lengthss the abuser will go to.
    
    I think that that is sufficient reason to let the abuser know from
    the first abuse that ..I am not going to take this.. The longer the
    target stays, the abuser decides that he/she owns the target, so
    if the target leaves after a time, then the abuser's attitude is
    " How DARE he/she...he/she is MY PROPERTY.I will NOT give it up"
    
    In reply to the abuser seeking an alternate target, we did not have
    a child then, as I said it was early in the marriage. However,
    my husband KNOWS that he's better off touching me than ANY of my
    close relatives, and children are about as close as you can get.
    It would be CURTAINS for him, believe me.
    
    Also, in response to someone who said that having a job was a factor
    in being able to stop the abuse, I must mention that when I called
    the police on my husband, I had NO job, I had a college degree, but
    i was not eligible to work in this country, and my eligibility totally
    depended on my husband signing some papers. Regardless of all this,
    I called the police, because I was so mad that he had the nerve to
    hit me that as far as I was concerned, anything else that happened
    to me HAD to be BETTER.
    
     

	.52  Please remember that what worked for you is based on who
	you are and may not work for someone else because it is based
	on who they are.  There are other reason why one is not able 
	to call the police the first time it happens or even any time
	that it happens.  Also remember that a number of women are
	killed by someone they have called the police on previously,	
	and who they have a restraining order against.  There is a
	lot more involved in stopping abuse than one action in most
	cases.

	_peggy
		(-)
		 |
			Walk gently on damaged feet

    	RE: .53  Peggy

    	Good point!  Stopping the abuse by calling the police the
    	first time isn't an option for everyone - nor does it always
    	work.

    	The abuser's wrath can unleash in strange and illogical ways
    	(including trying to have the target arrested and/or simply
    	killing the target upon release from jail.)

    	It's wise to remember that we're not talking about a rational
    	process here - the abuser can justify anything and everything
    	in the pursuit of abuse.  It doesn't have to make sense when
    	it's backed by an increasing level of intimidation and physical
    	brutality.  

    	In the abuser's mind, might makes right.  There's nothing else.

    "In the abuser's mind, might makes right.  There's nothing else."
    
    This isn't a *perfectly* true statement.  To the abuser, might
    used against the abuser is wrong.  (It is also the initial attack;
    the abuser never did anything that could possibly be construed
    as having lit the fuse.  Gee, this sarcasm is pretty think.  Can
    you still read through it?)
    
    How about, "In the abuser's mind, anything that makes the abuser
    look like the winner is right.  There's nothing else."?
    
    						Ann B.

    
    	RE: .57  Ann B.
    
    	Agree 100%.
    

    
    I may be wrong..so no flames please..but I still think that reacting
    in an agressive manner the FIRST time makes a difference. If he/she
    is the type to kill you, he/she will kill you if you react the first
    time or the 10th time, so at least you save yourself 9 more beatings
    before death.
    
    Example..A MALE friend told me that the first time he hit his wife,
    she went after him with such fury..throwing ALL the kitchen stuff
    including knives, at him that he backed away and never hit her again.
    
    A female friend said that with her husband it started with a slap..
    she cried..then 2 slaps..she cried.then about 3 slaps and a kick.
    I told her that the next time she should pick up a machete..in the
    Caribbean, we all keep machetes.. and go after him, because he was
    going to kill her eventually anyway.
    So, the next time, she picked up the machete and went after him
    he ran into the bedroom, she totally lost her temper and started
    hacking at the bedroom door..the lock gave and she went after him.
    By this time, he, hearing her hacking at the door and screaming like
    a banshee had broken the bedroom window and jumped through, telling
    the entire neighborhood that she had gone crazy.
    I still laugh when I remember.
    To make a long story short, they are still married and he has never
    hit her again.
    
    Maybe we Caribbean women are a little hot-blooded..maybe its the
    sun ..it gets really hot down there( just a touch of humor!!!!)
 
    As I said previously, I may be wrong and as someone pointed out
    it may NOT work for everyone. Your SO has to know that you are
    perfectly capable of expertly wielding a machete, and that when
    the need arises, you can conjure up a temper to match a 95 degree
    sun.
    
    

    .59
    
    I agree totally.  Those were the ground rules I established the first
    time with my ex.  He slapped me once and is still wearing the scars of
    my reaction on his face.  After that situation calmed down, he wanted
    to talk with no violence, our conversation concluded with my statement
    of "I will not be abused by you or anyone, if you think you want to hit 
    me, you'd better kill me because if you fall asleep in the same house 
    with me, you'll wake up frying from the boiling oil I throw on you in your 
    sleep.", and he knew I meant it.  From that day on he would bite his 
    finger til it bled rather than risk hitting me.  Also, I didn't find out 
    until about 3 yrs or so after that incident, that he had abused and 
    terriorized his former wife and children.  This was told to me my his 
    children who were shocked to see him bitting his finger or punching a 
    wall, when his previous reaction would have been to physically beat 
    everyone in sight when his temper was riled.  I'm not saying this will 
    work for everyone or that anyone has to agree with my tactics but it 
    worked for me.  

    	If spousal/SO abuse can be stopped by a shock the first time it
    	happens, that's wonderful!  It's good to know that it seems to
    	be more effective than I'd realized.

    	When I was in the violent situation in my marriage, I had no
    	concept that the first time was only the beginning of a pattern
    	of abuse - it never occurred to me.  

    	By the time I realized that the abuse would never stop until I
    	was able to remove my ex from close proximity to me, I was so
    	deeply entrenched in the mindset of a target that I had to do
    	some pretty serious adjustments to get him out.  I never did
    	call the police during his attacks.

    	His second wife (after me) had the police at their apartment
    	almost every time he abused her.  My ex went to jail over and
    	over and over again - and it didn't change a thing.  When she
    	finally got a restraining order to keep him away, he was
    	arrested for breaking in to her apartment to terrorize her
    	during their separation.

    	Some abusers are so obsessed with their targets that they can't
    	do anything but strike out at the one person.  It's as if there
    	is nothing at all in the abuser's life except the will to pound
    	on this one woman - furiously and relentlessly - until she either
    	disappears, or he kills her, or until he finds a new target.

    	Then it's the new target's problem - and it starts all over again
    	for her.

    I hope that those who advocate fighting back at the first sign of
    violence are aware that there are many people (who seem to invite
    violence) who lack the feelings of self-worth and self-esteem required
    to counterattack.  Targets who have gone from an abusive childhood home
    into abusive adult relationships are frequently accused of "asking for
    it," not only by the abuser, but also by society.  Rather than joining
    in the condemnation of such targets, we need to explore how and where
    they can find the self-worth they need to make a change in their lives.
    
    Karen

    
    	Let's agree that the dynamics of abuse are so complex that
    	there's no simple answer to stopping it (either before the
    	fact or after it.)
    
    	Thanks to all of you for the interesting discussion about
    	this topic.
    

    re .62  (Mild flame. You hit a hot button. Its not just you, please
    don't take this personally.)
    
    Karen, I didn't read anything about condemnation. I read examples of
    courage shared by women who were probably pretty scared at the time,
    but determined not to be beaten. I think we should encourage women to
    share their stories of courage. And on top of that, I think we should
    instill in every young woman we meet the knowledge and the belief that
    she should fight back with everything she has, including police
    protection, from day one.
    
    Its true that not every woman has the inner strength to do what Desryn
    Duncan or Ms. Fallon (Phyllis?) did. In fact, knowing both of them, I
    could speculate that black women have an edge on inner strength, but I
    have too little data! 
    
    In the black community, I have noticed that when someone stands up and
    does something courageous, instead of giving them great recognition and
    applause, we scorn them for their strength and start patronizing and
    excusing those who don't have that strength. Well, I'm sick of seeing
    it in the black community, and I don't want to see it here, either.
    
    Put these women's stories up for the rest of the community to see.
    Don't shoot them down. Let other women know that it can be done. Help
    them to build self-esteem. Don't excuse them for not having any. Making
    excuses for a woman who is being abused does not help her one d*mn bit.
    
    
    Lauren Foster
    (a black woman)

    	Let's keep in mind that courage can take a lot of different
    	forms for a target - and that whatever the target does can
    	be seen as "bad" in our culture.

    	If the target doesn't fight back - "Oh, you *LET* him abuse you."
    	It's considered the target's fault for staying and "letting" it
    	happen.

    	If the target *does* fight back - "Oh, then you abused him, too"
    	or "You goaded him into hurting you." Like women who have been raped, 
    	the most creditable targets are the ones who can claim the most 
    	innocence.  

    	If you leave the marriage at the first sign of abuse - "You gave
    	up awfully quickly."

    	We need to keep in mind that there's a strong cultural tendency 
    	for targets to receive these sorts of judgments (even in the 1990s)
    	 - it's another aspect of the situation that needs to be changed.

    Lauren (.64)), I think we're in violent agreement here.  In my note I
    wasn't saying that anyone here had "condemned" anyone yet.  In fact,
    I'm hearing those who have fought back and those who have not sharing
    their experiences and, I hope, learning from each other's experience. 
    That's great, and I hope we continue.
    
    My note was prompted by a realization that victims of abuse cover the
    full spectrum of possible personality types.  There are those who can't
    and won't EVER stand up for themselves, and at the opposite end there
    are those who most definitely invite the abuse by being abusive
    themselves.  (NOTE:  I'm not attributing either of these extremes to
    anyone here, but I have personally known representatives of both 
    extremes.)  And, of course, there are all degrees of difference in
    between.  As has been mentioned already in this string, there has been
    a tendency on the part of many of the people around an abuse victim to
    blame the victim, REGARDLESS OF THE ACTION THE VICTIM TAKES.
    
    And, too often for me to sit by silently, I've seen abuse victims blame
    other victims for "not responding appropriately."
    
    I just want to make my plea for understanding, even if acceptance is
    too much to ask.  I can understand and applaud fighting back.  I can
    also understand, because I've been there, the feeling that fighting
    back is inappropriate AT THAT TIME.  I only hope that others will
    attempt to be as understanding.
    
    Karen
         

    I am posting this for a noter who wishes to remain anonymous.
    
    -Jody
    
=============================================================

re .40

>    I have also read that one of the ways is to stop abuse before it gets 
>    too bad ... that is, stop it the first time.

    I'm sitting here at my keyboard, applauding your note and your actions.
    Good for You!  You learned a hell of a lot faster than a lot of us.

    In my family, we learned "peace at any price" before we could read.  My
    father got his way with everyone because he had permission to rant and
    rave and make everyone else miserable.  It was the duty of everyone
    else to remain silent and collapse in the face of his current whim.

    The first eight or ten years of my marriage were the same.  My husband
    would rant and rave and throw stuff: books, newspapers, small stuff. I
    would collapse.

    A few years ago - who knows why - he started a rant and rave cycle, and
    this time I ranted and raved too. I threw stuff. I hollered. Slammed
    doors. Threw valuable *breakable* stuff. He stomped upstairs and I kept
    hollering for a while.

    He still rants and raves occasionally but he never throws stuff any
    more.  Not since I learned how.  He is a wonderful person, and I
    appreciate him immensely, but I've made up my mind if he ever lays a
    hand on me or goes on a serious rampage in our house, I will too. And
    since I've made this internal decision, things are much more adult.
    
>    .64
>    Put these women's stories up for the rest of the community to see.
>    Don't shoot them down. Let other women know that it can be done. 

    Right On.  Every time I hear one of these stories, I feel better. More
    in control.  Thanks, Ren.

    	RE: .67

    	Enjoyed reading your note - thanks!

    	> In my family, we learned "peace at any price" before we could read.  

    	The families of abusers are often burdened with the job of keeping
    	peace - and, of course, if things do get out of hand, it's regarded
    	as the family's fault (not the abuser's.)  The family will take the
    	heat for not doing what it was "supposed to do" in the face of abuse.

    	> My father got his way with everyone because he had permission to 
    	> rant and rave and make everyone else miserable.  It was the duty of 
    	> everyone else to remain silent and collapse in the face of his 
    	> current whim.

    	Exactly - the abuser has "permission" to do what he does - if the
    	family has the gall to use the same words he uses or to yell as
    	loudly as he yells, it's an abomination.  Suddenly, the abuser is
    	the innocent person and the family is inflicting some horrible
    	travesty on him.  The family *never* *ever* has permission to
    	stand up against the abuser - unless you give yourself permission.

    	The abuser and those who think the family should never fight back
    	- be damned!  Sometimes the family has to do what it thinks best
    	no matter how many others may not like it.

    	Thanks again for your note!

    Not to upset the status quo here, but the base note is not always
    true.  The notes about fighting back are not always true.  I know.
    I've been there.
    
    Barb

    
    	RE: .69  Barb
    
    	There's no "status quo" here - we're all just talking about our
    	own observations from having been there, too.
    
    	Your observations are welcome, too.
    

    
    re .69
    
    I don't know what you really mean by "the notes about fighting back
    are not true"
    Mine was TRUE. I've been there. It happened to ME. Also, the note
    about my girlfriend with the machete was TRUE. I was there. I
    lived 2 doors away.
    As I said, I"VE BEEN THERE.
    

    
    	RE: .71
    
    	She said, "not always true," actually.
    

    
    
    Sorry......
    

    re .75
    
    edp if I were you I would ignore notes that I felt were abusve.
    
    This strategy in the the past has earned the respect of other noters
    and has usually stopped the interaction.
    
    I would debate ideas....and philosophies...not people.
    
    And I would study the audience...I would study notes that might have
    the same ideas as you have and determine if there is a different
    presentation that might be more effective then the one you are using.
    
    Bottom line the only person ou can change is yourself.  And it is
    sometimes amazing how a different attitude creates change not only
    in our happiness but how others view us.
    
    

    Re: .75
    
    You can't stop anyone from doing anything.  Each of us controls only
    ourselves.  If a person is abusing another, the abused cannot stop the
    abuser.  It's sad and it's frustrating and it hurts to be in that
    position and IT'S NOT FAIR.  But, the only thing a person can do is to
    try not to put themselves in a position which allows the abuse to
    continue.
    
    I know from having been the target of abuse that there is a strong
    desire to "punish" the abuser or to get someone else to "punish" them
    to get them to stop.  Sometimes a good swift "kick" knocks some sense
    into them, usually only temporarily though.  If it doesn't work, you
    have to try something different.  Getting out of harm's way is a good
    strategy, IMHO.
    
    Mary
    

    Re: .74
    
    > Any similarity of any part of this description to
    > anyone (other than myself) noting here is unplanned . . .
    
    Oh, Brian!  The similarity though unplanned, validates the experiences of
    myself and others.  Thank you so much for a very well composed note!
    
    Mary

    	RE: .74  Brian
    
    	Very well written note, Brian.  You struck so many familiar chords
    	about my ex-marriage that I don't have the words to list them all.
    
    	These particular passages took me back a decade or so (to some days
    	worth forgetting while married):
    
    	> Because the abuser is holding out approval as the goal the victim
     	> is to strive for, the abuser must of necessity invent failures on 
    	> the part of the victim to explain the lack of approval.  These 
    	> failures may be pure invention, or may be arbitrary requirements 
    	> imposed after the fact, or may be arbitrary requirements impossible 
    	> of meeting; but it seems they are more often merely normal human 
    	> imperfections magnified beyond recognition into something unbearably 
    	> hideous.  
    
    	> The abuser ascribes deep and powerful meaning to even trivial acts 
    	> by the victim...
    
    	Yup.  My ex-husband exactly.

    	Getting back to the basenote -

    	One of the most important things that a target of abuse needs to
    	remember is that it is not possible to make the abuser stop the
    	abuse (once it gets going) - as long as the target is within range
    	of the abuser.

    	It simply is not possible to change another person's behavior
    	and/or perspective.  The only behavior a person can definitely
    	change is hir own.  The abuser will change IF he wants to change.

    	The only solution is to put distance between yourself and the
    	abuser.  Even this doesn't always work (since the abuser can come
    	looking for the target in spite of changes of address and/or
    	restraining orders) - but staying in the same domicile as the
    	abuser does not provide a way to end the abuse.

    	If the abuse is non-physical, it's possible to ignore the abuse -
    	but again, putting distance between oneself and the abuser is the
    	only sure way to stop *any* kind of habitual abuse.

About putting distance between yourself and the abuser, I think
it's important to remember that that is a really scarey thing for
lots of people. And that we often get so caught up in our fears
that we become immobilized.

It would be helpful to hear about how some of you managed to overcome
the fears you had so that you were able to put distance between yourself and
your abuser.

Kathy

    	RE:  .82  Kathy

    	> About putting distance between yourself and the abuser...

    	One thing to remember is that there is no such thing as "winning"
    	for the target in the scenario of abuse.  "Winning" is the goal
    	of the abuser's game - but it's a mistaken concept.  There is no
    	such thing.

    	If the abuser is "arrested," the target doesn't "win" - legal
    	methods don't guarantee to stop abuse, even if a restraining
    	order is involved.  Arresting the abuser only takes the person
    	out of range for a small period of time.

    	If the target divorces the abuser, no one "wins" - divorce is
    	its own hell, regardless on which side of it you land.

    	If the target moves away from the abuser, this isn't a "win"
    	either - it only puts you out of reach of the abuser, but it
    	won't make the abuser truly sorry (and aware that the abuser's
    	actions were wrong.)

    	Accepting that there is no "win" to this situation is one of the
    	first steps to recovering from the effects of abuse.

    
    	RE: .82  Kathy
    
    	More ("About putting distance between yourself and the abuser")...
    
    	If my son had been in the position of having to remain with the
    	abuser after I'd left, I would not have been able to go - no
    	matter how intolerable the situation would have become.
    
    	My ex's proximity to someone I loved had a huge bearing on my
    	ability to walk away from him.
    

    re: .80
    
    Erik, 
    
    I've found that ignoring the abuse in a situation where you can
    ignore it -- job-related incidents, for instance, or phone calls,
    or notes, or MAIL encounters -- almost always works.  I've never
    been in an abusive relationship, so I don't know whether it would
    work in other circumnstances as well. 
    
    Someone making harrassing phone calls, for instance, is usually
    trying to make your life miserable, trying to control your
    emotions and reactions even when you're not there.  If you just
    hang up on them and go on cheerfully about your life, most of the
    time that spoils the fun.  
    
    Similarly, at work, I find that if I always maintain a cheerful
    professional attitude, no matter how abusive and unprofessional
    the other person is being, I generally win in the long run. 
    In my experience, there's not much that normally happens in the
    world of work that defuses a person faster than to have them make
    a catty remark about the way I'm dressed, and have me reply
    cheerfully, as if they meant it at face value, "Why, thank you!" 
    If I get insulted, then they've won.
    
    Not that I'm always so saintly -- I do often lose my cool.  But I
    generally find that it's not nearly as effective as staying polite
    and refusing to respond to the abuse.  As my mother used to say,
    you catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. 
    
    --bonnie

	What Suszane (did I get it right?) said about being willing to
	except that concept of not winning is really important.  The
	target just has to accept that and get on with life.  By getting
	beyond the "need" to win gets the traget out of the game and
	things can be veiwed clearly and action is easier since the
	focus is on the self instead of the abuser.

	_peggy