Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I am speechless.
    
    
    Respectfully,
    Barb

    
    re .0  
    
    one-third of all women are raped in their lifetime?????
    
    Where does this statistic come from. It seems awfully high to me. Now
    don't get me wrong, I agree with the principle that as a society we
    need to stop violence against women( and everyone else), but I believe
    that exagerated statistics such as this do not help the cause.
    
    

    re. Note 441.2   
    KYOA::NEWMAN                                         
    
    >one-third of all women are raped in their lifetime?????
    
    >Where does this statistic come from. It seems awfully high to me. Now
    >don't get me wrong, I agree with the principle that as a society we
    >need to stop violence against women( and everyone else), but I believe
    >that exagerated statistics such as this do not help the cause.
    

    First you ask for confirmation of a quoted statistic. Then, without
    waiting for confirmation, you conclude that the statistic is 
    exagerated. Don't you think it would be fairer to _wait_ for 
    confirmation/correction *before* drawing the conclusion ?
    

        

    
    
    I'm very pleased to see some men taking action to end violence against
    women.  Nancy, thanks for posting this info.
    
    Justine

    re .2
    
    sounds if anything a bit low to me.  a life time is a long time...

    
    Nancy, will you please keep us non-Massachusettsites updated on
    these events?
    
    Carla
    

    In the Colorado Springs paper an article on rape gave federal crime
    statistics that said a woman is raped somewhere in the this country every 6
    minutes. I don't remember the rest of the stats. liesl

    On faked statistics:
    
    I have no idea if it's true.
    
    BUT...in my life, I have never once met a woman with whom I have
    discussed this who didn't have at least one story to tell about a time
    when she came *close* to being raped.  (And I mean real fear, not
    exagerated paranoia or random worries about strangers...I mean things
    like being threatened with a weapon, followed by a man in a car, etc.)
    
    Most of these women are my age (22.)  
    
    Just think about that for a minute: by the age of 22, almost all women
    (based on my admitedly non-statistical sample) have been threatened
    with rape.
    
    The 1/3 statistic sounds about right to me.
    
    D! who has *more* than a few stories about "close calls"

    
    So, Mike Z., will you be participating?
    
    CQ

    
    Will you be participating?
    
    CQ

re: 441.6  (Carla Blazek)

>    Nancy, will you please keep us non-Massachusettsites updated on
>    these events?
    
Certainly, Carla - as much as I find out myself, that is.

The only activity I'm planning on attending in person is the Saturday 
night  poetry reading / fund-raiser for the Boston area Rape Crisis 
Centers.

Is anyone else thinking about going?  

I will be in Cambridge for most of the weekend (except for Saturday
9-3 when I'll be in Clinton instructing the firearms safety course)
so I can't offer anyone a ride from the 'burbs...  But it would be 
cool to meet there (at the poetry reading) and then maybe go to 
the coffee house in Harvard Square where they serve that thick black 
stuff from a pot into tiny cups (Algierian Coffee?)   Or someplace
closeby.

I'm curious about what was brought up in the film tonight (A film 
about the connection of rape to other forms of abuse against women.)

Wanted to go see that tonight, and I also wanted to hear Gene Burns talk
about "The Nature and Role of Government" in Sudbury (because I just
realized that Republicans and Democrats differ only in which groups
they lie to, and have become interested in the Libertarian party.)
( <----  comments on that to a politics topic please.)

So in lieu of making a tough decision, I took the easy way out and
stayed at work trying to meet a ridiculous deadline for a couple weeks
from now.  I know.  Dweebdweebdweebdweeb.


re:  441.7  (Liesl Kolbe)

> an article on rape gave federal crime statistics that said a woman 
> is raped somewhere in the this country every 6 minutes. 

	Yea, if I recall correctly, Ann Broomhead wrote a note a while
	ago saying something like, "in the time it took me to write this
	note, 2 (no drat) 3 women have been raped..."  So I imagine it
	took her about 18 minutes to write the note...

    						nancy b.

    Sometime ago I went to a small cookout...as we sat on the deck and
    laughed and joked...one of us made reference to the fact that our
    gathering was one of friendships developed through notes, but our
    commonality was that we had all been abused by our fathers...
    
    When I first started reading =wn I thought I was the only one that
    had all these secrets about my father, my uncle and a male
    acquaintance.
    
    I was amazed how many in this small community shared similar and worse
    experiences.

    
    There's an article about Jackson Katz and Real Men in the Living
    section of today's Boston Globe.
    
    D.

    
    re: .15  Then I guess this isn't a case of "preaching to the
    converted".  You and I have radically different ideas of what this
    event is supposed to accomplish.
    
    CQ

    
    I think that what's important about these events is that men are
    organizing them.  Men are doing something (and something quite visible)
    to say that they're angry, too, about violence against women, and
    they're willing to do something to stop it.  Statistically speaking,
    there may in fact be batterers in attendance, but I'm glad that most
    of the folks there will be men and women who love and respect women.
    
    Justine

 The other advantage in organising a "Cease fire" group is that such a group
engenders (-: an environment amongst men in which violence against women is 
not socially acceptable.  These men then go out and deal with other men in 
daily work and social groups, and can apply peer pressure to those less 
enlightened men who still use physical (?and mental) abuse against women. 
 This is a good thing, in my opinion, even if some aspects of the Cease Fire
organisation can be perceived as "preaching to the choir" 

						Nigel

DISCLAIMERS:

a.  I'm not suggesting that ALL MEN beat or abuse SOME WOMEN
b.  There are cases where SOME WOMEN beat or abuse SOME MEN; I'm deliberately
    ignoring that issue for now
c.  I'm not suggesting that the men who contribute to this file feel that it is
    socially acceptable to use violence against women.

						Nigel

    Re. "preaching to the choir":  In my admittedly hurried reading of the
    newspaper article about the "Cease Fire" week, I discovered that at
    least one of the organizing groups is a counseling/support group for
    men who have been convicted of some form of violence against women.  I
    didn't take this as their attempt for more counseling, but rather as
    their attempt to help remedy some of the wrongs they had committed and
    their public admission that those acts ARE wrong.
    
    Karen

    	It's very encouraging to see a group of men try to convince
    	other men of the need to end violence/abuse/harassment of 
    	women.  I wish them well - sometimes other men are the only
    	ones who can reach the men who seriously abuse women.

    	The cycle of abuse is horrifying to live through (and to watch
    	unfold in your life) - the most discouraging thing is when other
    	men see it and believe that the women somehow deserved to be
    	bludgeoned as badly as so many of us experience in one way or
    	another.

    	Ultimately, women must be our own strength during the times of
    	abuse - we must keep our own serenity when hell is breaking loose
    	around us.  But the hand of a man (reaching out to other men) to
    	help us end the senseless violence and harassment of women in our 
    	society is nice to see, too.

    	One thing I worry about sometimes is that some of the men who
    	would like to fight the abuse against women refrain from doing
    	so because they know women are strong (and they don't want to
    	appear to insult women by coming to our defense.)

    	If good men sit by while women are bludgeoned, it will be even
    	more miserable for the good men to watch.

    	Now's the time to stand up with women when you see abuse and
    	make sure that your voice is heard.  Loud and clear.

    re .22 >if good men sit by while women are bludgeoned...

    No, Suzanne, it's just that abusers don't generally 'do their thing'
    in the presence of other males. They're cowards, and know that any 
    old-fashioned _man_ who saw them hitting a woman would kick 
    their a**. Most guys I know will only 'take a stand' in the middle
    of a situation, not at political rallies, demonstrations, etc. 
    (based on my experience in another, more political, issue.)

    
    In yesterday's article in the Boston Globe about Real Men, there was a
    reference to Superbowl Sunday as being "one of the worst days in the
    year" for woman-battering. Someone I mentioned it to said they were
    familiar with this correlation already.
    
    Has anyone else heard of this?
    
    D.
    

    re .24 Super Bowl Sunday
    
    That makes sense - a lot of guys who don't normally drink sit
    around and have several beers. Alcohol tends, especially in those 
    who don't often drink, to cause a loss of inhibitions. In this case,
    it causes those who normally control their temper to lose it. (I've 
    seen this in *lots* of people. One man I know well, normally a very calm,
    peacable, church-going family man, tends to get real ugly after four 
    beers. 'S why I prefer to drink with practiced drinkers.)
    
    Dana

    
    Yes, I'd heard it before.

    I believe that's why REAL MEN had a protest on Superbowl Sunday last
    year.  Please see also:
    
    Mennotes
    409 - Real Men....support an end to violence against women
    
    
    -Jody
    

	Jackson Katz, the organizer of Real Men, told me that the
	turnout of this week's events has far-exceeded his expectations. 
	He thinks this has a lot to do with the positive press
	they've been receiving (Wednesday's special in the Living
	Arts section of the Globe, and Thursday's editorial entitled
	"Men Confronting Men"(or something like that).  Did anybody
	see yesterday's editorial?  (Would you type it in?)

	Also, he said the "Wall" would also be at tomorrow night's poetry
	reading / benefit for the Rape Crisis Centers (at the First
	Church of Cambridge; 8pm).  

	I have 1 extra advance-purchase ticket (price $10).  Send mail
	if interested.
	
	Prices at the door tomorrow will be $12.

							nancy b.

    RE: Men taking a stand against other men
    
    I would like to see the day when a man calls another man on a sexist
    remark. Or when a man calls another man on abusing a woman who's not
    "his" woman (SO, mother, sister, etc.). Not only is this practice 
    essentially non-existent, but the opposite (*groups* of men harrassing
    and raping women) is unfortunately much more common than men taking a
    stand against other men when sexism rears its ugly head, whether in
    milder form, or in criminal form.
    
    --DE
    

    
    	Maybe not often enough, but it's beginning to happen more often
    	than one would think... and it is definitely not 'non-existent'. 
    
    	-Erik ("Another man against violence againt women")
                                    

          Saturday night's poetry reading to benefit the Boston Area Rape
          Crisis Centers appeared to be a success financially for the
          centers (in that it was well-attended) as well as an opportunity
          to hear some very talented and moving poets.

          I can't quite bring myself to calling the evening "enjoyable",
          mostly because of the Wall.  But in this reply, I'll talk about
          the poets (Dorian, please feel free to correct this or mention
          something I leave out.)

          The poets featured were Thylias Moss, Cyrus Cassells, and Deb
          Oestreicher (as it says on my ticket).  I do not recall  which
          name went with which person, so I'll describe them and some of
          their poems in the order they appeared, including their gender,
          race, and approx age to give you an idea of their frame of
          references (and, therefore, what circumstances have affected
          their poetry).

          The first poet was a white woman approximately 27 years old whose
          poems dealt with incest, battery, and perhaps rape (I was not
          sure about that).  The one I remember best dealt with battery.
          She described a bruise (soft, brown, aching to be pressed...) and
          the search for reasons as to how it got there (the furniture, the
          door handle).

          The second poet was a male approx 35 years old, who in my best
          guess is half Native-American, part African-American, and part
          Hispanic.  He had the most interesting facial bone structure of
          any man I've seen in quite a while.  He referred to writing
          poetry on the beaches of Peurto Rico and during the 4 years when
          he lived "in a garden" in Provincetown.   His poetry dealt mostly
          with racism and it's ugly manifestations.

          He shared 1 poem on the "wilding incident" in Central Park.   One
          descriptor that stuck with me was his reference to what happened
          as "Living Grafitti".  He said, [..]
          "And little brothers, you thought we would not see?" (the "we"
          referring to Mother Earth, Father Sky) [..]
          "And the pond grew _sick_ with what it saw..."
          (refering to the pond in Central Park where people play with
          those remote-controlled sailboats.)

          The last poet was an African American woman, perhaps part
          Hispanic, a literature instructor at Phillips Academy in Andover.
          Her poetry revealed she must have been at least 40 or so, though
          I would have honestly guessed no older than 25.  When she spoke
          about her poems, providing the audience with a preface, her voice
          was soft, hardly audible.  When she shared her poetry, the room
          shook with emotion.   Her poetry mostly dealt with racism and
          violence, though a couple were humorous.  I most liked her last
          poem which she wrote upon hearing that Marvin Gay, Sr. had killed
          Marvin Gay, Jr.  The poem describes what the poem was _not_ about
          until the very end.  She is about to release a new book of her
          poetry.

                                                nancy b.

          [From a handout I picked up at Saturday's poetry reading:]

                     Media Wall Documents Violence Against Women
                     ===========================================

               The Media Wall is a portable, 30-foot structure that
          contains over 450 articles about violence against women from the
          Boston-area print media from January 1990 to the present.

               The wall introduces a week of events, entitled "Ceasefire
          Action Week," that is being co-sponsored by the groups Men to End
          Sexual Assault (MESA), Real Men, and Emerge.  The week's
          activities are designed to call attention to the need for men to
          take responsibility for sexism and the overwhelming level of
          violence against women in our society.

               The purpose of the wall is to dramatize how widespread
          violence against women is in a way that is difficult for men to
          ignore.  It is also intended to honor the women who are the
          victims and survivors of male violence.

          What kind of articles are on the wall?
          -------------------------------------

               The articles were compiled by the Media Response Team, a
          joint project of the Boston Area Rape Crisis Center (BARCC) and
          MESA.  The Media Response Team has been monitoring stories bout
          violence against women over the past year.  Members of the team
          praise journalists for accurate and thorough coverage, and
          complain when they consider coverage to be misleading or
          inadequate.  Some of the articles they have responded to are
          included on the wall, as are some of their published criticisms.

               The wall contains a combination of news stories, feature
          articles, opinion pieces, editorials, and letters to the editor.

               Many of the articles detail heinous crimes of violence, such
          as the rape and murder of women and children.  Some of these
          stories were extensively publicized, such as the Stuart murder of
          the Nicole Ravesi kidnapping.  Only a handful of articles were
          chosen in these instances, for reasons of space.

               But in addition to the high profile cases of brutal physical
          violence, there are many different types of violence against
          women that are represented.

               Some articles are themselves abusive to women, by continuing
          to perpetuate myths about violence or attacking women's
          empowerment.  There are also articles about sexual harassment,
          pornography, and prostitution.  However, most instances of sexual
          harassment never make it to the "newsworthy" stage.  Pornography
          is typically covered as a free speech issue or a political
          battleground, while the violence done to women both in
          pornography and as a result of it is rarely mentioned.

               Coverage of prostitution usually focuses on the prostitutes
          themselves, and not on the pimps and other men who abuse and
          exploit them.  And obviously, the articles that do appear on all
          these issues represent only a small fraction of their incidence
          in reality.

          What kinds of articles are not on the wall?
          ------------------------------------------

               Perhaps even more telling than the articles that are
          included are the ones you won't find on the wall.  For example,
          while 3-4 million women are battered every year in this country
          by their male partners, there are few news articles published
          about these assaults.  Virtually all of the articles about so-
          called "domestic" violence are feature stories about the
          phenomenon, or related political or sociological analyses.  The
          absence of news stories about battering represents a sexist bias
          that goes beyond news coverage.  For example, a fight between two
          men in a bar is more likely to result in an arrest and conviction
          than are repeated instances of a woman being beaten by her
          partner.

               While some rapes are covered, only a small percentage are
          reported either to the police of to rape crisis centers.  And
          coverage of rape in the media tends to reflect popular
          misconceptions about race and sexual violence.  For example, by
          far the highest percentage of rape is committed by white men, but
          men of color are disproportionately represented in news stories.

               Similarly, violence against a woman of color is the least
          likely to receive coverage.

          Not an exhaustive media survey
          ------------------------------

               The Media Wall is meant to raise awareness and stimulate
          discussion and action.  It is not an exhaustive survey of media
          conventions nor a precise cataloguing of the Boston-area media's
          coverage of violence against women.

               Not all of the articles in included report on incidents in
          the Boston area.  We included stories from the Boston media about
          violent incidents in other parts of the country, to raise the
          question of why some stories are considered newsworthy and others
          are not.

               The wall contains a handful of stories about "gay-bashing,"
          which is also vastly under-reported.  As with other forms of
          sexual violence, most anti-gay violence is perpetrated by
          heterosexual white males.

               The Boston Globe, Herald, and Phoenix are prominently
          represented as are a handful of smaller papers.  However, we did
          not include many community papers or Spanish or other language
          publications.  We also did not include college newspapers.

               These exclusions were not intentional.  The Media Response
          Team is looking for help to expand the scope of the media it
          monitors.  We would like other communities to participate in the
          on-going project in the future.

               Men, join the CEASEfire.  Stop violence against women.

    
    I moved to Italy from Boston about a month ago, and I was very happy
    to have discovered this notes group (or whatever they are called -- I
    have been working here only 3 weeks);  I miss being able to participate
    in events such as the ones described.  Could someone post an address
    for CEASEfire, so I could write them?  Thanks
    
    AndyT.

    
    	Hi Andy,
    
    	I attended the CEASEfire meeting on Sunday and will be
    	participating in the REAL MEN protest action of Andrew Dice Clay 
    	appearing at the Worcester centrum tomorrow at 6:30.
    
    	CEASEfire is a colective group of three area men's groups - REAL
    	MEN, MESA, and EMERGE. So you'd have to contact the three groups
    	separately...
    
    	REAL MEN - A men's direct action group to end violence against women
    		   P.O. Box 1769, Brookline, MA 02146
    		   (617) 782-7838 
    
    	MESA - Men to End Sexualt Assualt
    	       P.O. Box 681, Cambridge, MA 02139
    	       (617) 492-8306
    
    	EMERGE - Counseling for violent men
    		 (617) 547-9870
    
    
	Hope it helps... 
    
    	-Erik
    

re .33 -

Nancy, I don't think I can add much to your account! Except I think the 
poets, in the order you described them, were Deb, Cyrus, and Thylias.

I was very moved by the three minutes of silence that were observed before 
the reading started, to commemorate women who have been abused, raped, 
battered, murdered, etc. I'm not sure I've ever sat in a roomful of people 
for three minutes of utter silence. (It was quiet enough to hear a woman 
drop...)

Also, I liked the woman who was translating everything said by the speaker/
poets into sign language. 

The atmosphere seemed to me to be mostly healing, caring and hope that it
really might be possible, through the efforts of groups like this one, to
put a stop to male violence against women, that was, as Nancy said,
tragically documented by the approx. 450 articles (all from *this year*,
mostly from the Globe and Herald) on the Media Wall. 

D.
                                         

    
    That's a question that very probably cannot be answered by any who are
    reading here.  What's your point in asking it?
    
    CQ

RE: .40 by HEYYOU::ZARLENGA

>	Why protest the man or the event if neither is responsible
>    for violence towards women?

   Glad you chose that word, 'responsible'.

   Andrew Dice  Clay *is* responsible, even if indirectly.  Just like skinhead
   propaganda  can  be  said  to be contributively responsible for hate crimes
   committed  by their skinhead audience.  I feel he is responsible for adding
   to  and perpetuating the climate in which men too freely sexual assault and
   commit violence against women.

   The reason  I am going tonight is because I think it is about time that MEN
   stood  up  and ADMITTED the fact that MEN rape and sexual assault other men
   and  women.  And if your first response is "Hey you, you know ALL men don't
   rape!",  I  ask you to examine where these feelings are coming from.  Often
   it  is  male  denial of the fact that men rape.  I did not say that ALL men
   rape.   But  why  is  that  our goal? I would like to see "NO men rape" but
   right  now am concerned about the 97% of rape and sexual assault *are* done
   by  MEN.   When we get closer toward having only those 3% of women to worry
   about,  that is when I will disagree that Men rape.  At 97%, how can we men
   disagree? And that is why I think we MEN should not deny the fact that "MEN
   rape" and should act to do something about it. 

   The reason  I am going to the CEASEfire action tonight (personally, not the
   official  REAL  MEN  reason)  is not to deny Andrew Dice Clay his chance of
   free  speech.   I think he deserves the right to perform his sexist/racist/
   homophobic  brand of humor.  But I think we also deserve the right to speak
   our  minds.   And where better to highlight the situation of sexual assault
   against women than at a gathering like his.

   I think  it  is equally important for this to be seen on the media tonight,
   that  while  some  men  choose to support the ADC contributions to the easy
   climate  of sexual assault, there are at least some other MEN that publicly
   oppose it.  The balance is important.

   That is  also  why  I feel it is important to have reclaimed the term "REAL
   MAN"  to  mean  being  a  valued and valuing person, not it's current macho
   definition.  REAL MEN is not an anti-male group.  It is still right in line
   with other men's issues. REAL MEN combat sexual assault against women.


[From part of a REAL MEN handout we're distributing tonight...]

   Andrew Dice  Clay  is a stand-up comedian who has become a major box-office
   attraction  over the past couple of years.  His act is largely comprised of
   relentless  abuse  toward  women,  children,  lesbians  and gays, people of
   color,   and   immigrants.    It  is  the  comedic  equivalent  of  violent
   pornography.

   We believe  there  is  a  link  between  this  kind of verbal abuse and the
   widespread physical abuse perpetrated against these groups.  We are calling
   on men to take responsibility toward ending this violence.

   We are also asking men and women to join us in protesting Clay's appearance
   at  the Worcester Centrum.  It is especially irresponsible and shameful for
   the Don Law agency to promote - and the Centrum to host - Clay's appearance
   on year TO THE DAY that Carol Stuart was murdered.


   HOW BAD IS THE VIOLENCE THAT DICE CLAY MAKES JOKES ABOUT?

   - In  Massachusetts,  a  woman  is  murdered  by  her  husband or boyfriend
   approximately every 22 days.

   - In 1988, battered women's programs in Massachusetts sheltered 5,407 women
   and children who were forced to flee the violence in their homes.

   - In  1988,  battered  women's  hotlines  in the Commonwealth received over
   58,000  calls  from  women  in  crises.   10,000 more were helped with peer
   support and advocacy services.

   - One in THREE women will be the victim of rape or sexual assault.

   - One  in  FOUR  girls  and  one in SEVEN boys will be the victim of sexual
   assault by the age of 18.


   We're not laughing.


   -Erik (member REAL MEN/Men to End Sexual Assault)

   >The reason  I am going to the CEASEfire action tonight (personally, not the
   >official  REAL  MEN  reason)  is not to deny Andrew Dice Clay his chance of
   >free  speech. 
    
    	This reads like it *is* REAL MEN's goal to deny ADC his free
    	speech, that's not the case, I just worded that poorly. It should
    	have read 'the reason why *I* personally am going'...
    
    	-Erik   

    
    .41 -
    
    Thanks Erik ...  :-)
    
    D.

    	The other night (on HBO, I think) - I saw a standup comedy routine
    	where the male comedian talked about how some men's fantasy is to
    	watch two women having sex together.  He went on to talk about
    	asking girlfriends how close they are to their female friends...

    	Then, he suggested that some women might have fantasies about two
    	men having sex together.  He then suggested that if a girlfriend
    	asks this... [the following is a direct quote]
    
    	        	"YOU BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF HER!!!"
                                      ****

    	Not only did the audience laugh - they cheered and applauded LOUDLY!
    	
    	"Humor" about violence to women sells these days (almost as much as
    	women's sexual images still sell cars, music videos, and a great
    	many other things.)

    	I'm happy that there's a group of men raising their voices against it.
    	
    	Thanks, Erik - and to the other members of REAL MEN, etc.  You have
    	a standing, cheering ovation from me.

    
    	Thanks for all the positive energy! I'll try to carry it with me
    	into the fray of the possible hostile audience there. I'm empowered
    	but slightly nervous too. 
    
    	I'll give a report when I get back tommorrow...
    
    	-Erik
     

    
    	-Erik
     
	For extra energy remember all the woman who can not be
	supportative of your act because they have been killed
	by husbands or lovers over the past year.  Your actions
	may just save one woman's life but that is enough to
	start with.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			May the peace of the goddess be with you

    From The Worcester Telegram and Gazette, Thursday 10/25/90
    
    The Real Men vs. the Dice Men - Paul Della Valle
    
    "I hate women, you faggot" - An Andrew Dice Clay fan to a protester 
    outside the Centrum last night
    
    Last November, during the first of two sold-out shows at the Centrum, 
    Andrew Dice Clay picked out a woman in the third row.  He leaned over 
    the stage apron and leered at her while her picture flashed up on huge 
    monitors.
    
    Dice Clay, his hair slicked back, a studded black leather jacket and 
    black jeans on, suggested into the microphone that the woman's short 
    dress and makeup meant "somebody is going to treat me like the pig 
    that I am."
    
    Funny?
    
    
    Nervous Laughter
    
    The woman laughed nervously.  Her boyfriend and another man stood up 
    and gave each other a high five.  The Centrum audience - made up mostly
    of young men in their 20s but about one quarter female --  cheered
    wildly as Dice Clay poured on the abuse.
    
    Satire?
    
    For the next hour, Dice Clay spewed angry and violent invective thinly 
    disguised as sophomoric jokes.  Some of it was aimed at gays, some at 
    blacks or immigrants.  But most of it was violently aimed at women.
    
    Funny?
    
    Satire?
    
    FBI Statistics

    According to the FBI, one of three women will be a victim of rape or 
    sexual assault in her life.  A woman is murdered by her husband or 
    boyfriend in Massachusetts every 22 days.  More than 5,400 women and 
    children were sheltered in battered women's programs in Massachusetts 
    last year.
    
    Dice Clay was back last night.  His popularity, based purely on shock 
    value, has faded as his lack of comedic talent becomes apparent.  But 
    about 10,000 fans, many of them women, still shelled out $22.50 to see 
    him.
    
    This time, though, it wasn't just his fans that showed up.

    Real Man were there.


    Passed Out Leaflets

    About 30 people marched around the Centrum entrance at Foster Street 
    and Worcester Center Boulevard.  They handed out leaflets, took abuse 
    and carried signs: "Real Men Value Women," "We're Not Laughing -- 
    Homophobia Hurts," "Hitting Women Is No Joke."

    Four of the protesters were women from Holy Cross.  Others were from 
    Worcester's Rape Crisis Program.  A dozen or so were Real Men, the 
    Boston-area organization that put the protest together.

    Picketing last night took some courage.

    Signs were ripped.  Hundreds of young men, many with closely cropped, 
    jock-style hairdos, took leaflets only to throw them back, shouting, 
    "Faggots, go home," "Dykes," "Dice, Dice, Dice" and dozens of graphic 
    obscenities culled from the act of their moronic hero.
    
    "A lot of people have said to me `don't you realize it's an act and 
    he's parodying the most vulgar aspects of white American masculinity',"
    Jackson Katz of Swampscott, the 30-year old founder of  Real Men said. 
    "I think people are kidding themselves.  The object of  satire is to
    get to know the truth from a different angle, to  illuminate a subject
    in a certain way.  What is Andrew Dice Clay  telling us?  What is he
    illuminating?  I think that's a bogus  argument, that it's satire."


    Just Don't Get It

    If it is indeed satire, many of the fans streaming into the Centrum 
    last night, in the words of Ted Koppel, just don't get it.  The anger
    of one group after another became palatable, faces contorting, 
    obscenities spitting into the cool night air, genitals grabbed as if 
    in a challenge, as if the presence of the protesters questioned their 
    very manhood.

    It got real ugly at times.  To any observer, it would certainly 
    advance Katz's position that acts like Dice Clay's contribute to 
    violence against women, in fact, foster violence.  "Dice Clay is the 
    comedic equivalent of violent pornography." Katz said.  Most of us can 
    laugh at jokes about sex or the battle between the sexes.  Some of us 
    laugh at "Married with Children."  But this crap is different.  Scary.


    Sign Ripped

    "Flaming faggot," one man sneered at Jonathan McDowell of Somerville, 
    a member of Real Men who was wading through the crowd at the door, 
    handing out leaflets.  Another guy ripped McDowell's yellow sign.  A 
    guy in a Cincinnati Reds hat took the leaflet, crumpled it up and 
    threw it at McDowell's head.  "I love violence," the Reds fan yelled.

    Katz was called a faggot and pussy by at least a dozen punks last 
    night.  He could've taken any one of them apart.  He was an all-star 
    noseguard at Swampscott High, a 200-pound, three-letter athlete who 
    said no to the recruiters who wanted him to play college ball.  He 
    minored in women's studies at UMass Amherst instead.


    Macho Culture

    "Even while I was in the middle of the jock world, the jockocracy, I 
    felt uneasy about the traditional sex roles," he said.  "I started 
    thinking about how much fear the women I was friendly with had to live 
    with on a daily basis.  They couldn't walk home late at night... I 
    started thinking I'm a man, I'm in a position to change this because 
    of who I am and where I come from, because of my background in macho 
    culture."

    The Macho culture.  I'll tell you, it was embarrassing to be a member 
    of it outside the Centrum last night.
    

    
    I guess Dice Clay is allowed freedom of speech, but anyone
    protesting what he says isn't?
    

    
    	RE: .49  Lee T.
    
    	Thanks for submitting this - excellent article!!!
    

Many thanks to Eric and the other men who demonstrated
against Andrew Dice Clay's "humor."

Kathy

    I want to second Suzanne's comments.  Thanks, Lee, for posting that
    article.  
    
    -- Mike

    
    Mike Z,
    
    You and I apparently disagree about the impact that humor like
    Andrew Dice Clay's can have on attitudes toward the acceptability
    of violence.  But if ADC's work offends me, and I decide to participate
    in a peaceful protest to let others know about why I'm offended, why
    does that seem wrong to you?  What is it about the work of REAL MEN
    that bothers you?  
    
    Studies have been done on what contributes to an atmosphere in which
    violence is an acceptable or even desired behavior.  The experts
    disagree about what may or may not cause or influence violent
    behavior.  I'm not asking you to join REAL MEN if you don't believe
    in their analysis of the problem of violence against women, but
    why are you so critical of their actions?
    
    Justine            

    One of the things I learned about in both my Psychology 101 and Social
    Psychology classes in college was the result of a rather famous
    experiment involving children's exposure to violent images on
    television who were then later given a chance to play with a large
    doll.  Those who were exposed to violent images were much more likely
    engage in violent play with the doll, in particular hitting it, than
    those who were not.

    -- Mike

RE:  .-1

Also, to add to what Justine said, just because some of us beleive
that Dice to be harmful and a contributing factor, does not imply that
those people who actually commit violent acts are not responsible for
their actions.

john

    Ah yess, I remember the exact study you reference Mike.
    
    But lets dig a little further shall we?
    
    that study SHOWED IMAGES... not words, IMAGES Mike, not WORDS.
    Also, phrases like "Most likely" and the like are not necessarily
    saying that IT WILL happen.  Lets not toss wrenches.  The children,
    half male and half female did indeed show signs of violent behavior
    after WATCHING a violent program.  And it wasnt even a cartoon!
    
    

    I know personally one woman who was badly beaten when she refused
    to have sex with her boyfriend after the earlier Dice Clay "show"
    mentioned in the article. 
    
    She says, and I have no reason to doubt her claim, that he was not
    openly abusive before that date.  She had certainly never
    mentioned it to me, and since she relived every nasty word her
    first husband ever said to her, and recounted abuse after the
    first beating in chilling detail.  I never met the man myself.
    
    I assume that the man was probably showing signs of being at least
    potentially abusive since that seems to be the kind she always
    picks, but it seems pretty clear that ADC's condoning of the
    attitude that women are only good for sex and should be beaten if
    they don't give it played at least a contributing role in starting
    the open abuse.
    
    --bonnie

    addendum to .61 -- I forgot an important detail.  Their
    relationship was not sexual at the time they went to the concert. 
    They were just dating.
    
    --bonnie

    If you wish to start a note just on Andrew Dice Clay, please feel free
    to do so....
    
    And please see also:
    
    Mennotes
    476 - Andrew Dice Clay
    

    Note .53 makes me wonder.
    

   I'm back...

   It was just an *incredible* experience last night.  I am at a total loss of
   words  to  describe  it,  to  the point where I can only spurt out residual
   reactions   like:   Wow.    Ouch.    VERY  scary.   Angering.   Depressing.
   Enlightening.  Empowering.  Extremely draining.  And that doesn't even come
   close.   My voice hurts.  My mouth muscles are sore.  My chest is sore [was
   I  really  that  tensed  up  and ready for a fight last night?].  I need to
   recharge.  Physically.  Mentally.

   I have  never  *ever*  seen any crowd be so completely livid and aggressive
   and hateful and attacking before.  If only I had brought a video camera.  I
   mean,  I  have been to women's rights rallies, abortion rights clashes, and
   even  anti-war  protests, but *nothing* compares to this.  It was *classic*
   textbook  male  reaction  to women's issues.  It was just unbelievable, the
   stuff of over-dramatized Hollywood movie scenes.

   True confession.   You  know,  whenever  I heard some 'capital-F Feminists'
   mention  the  many  ways  of  how  bad  ALL men are, my reaction was always
   "that's  not  all  men, they've just experienced a biased bad sample".  And
   while  I  *know*  that  ALL  men are not like those violent, agressive, and
   sexist beasts because I was in a group of such nonsexist men last night - I
   am  having  a very hard time today trying to remind myself, and re-convince
   myself,  over  and  over  again,  that last night was truly *just* a biased
   sample  of men.  But I'd be lying if I said my view of that 'most' men pool
   hasn't suffered some from last night. 

   The environment  of  easy  rape  and sexual assault was there.  It was just
   *so*  evident,  you could 'see' it.  It was enlightening.  But frightening.
   And  to  that  end,  all I can say is, I don't think we could have picked a
   more opportune crowd for our message than this one last night!

   There were  about  forty of us, 10 men and 30 women.  I was disappointed by
   the  number  of men, my SO was disappointed by the number of women.  Groups
   who came were Clark U, Holy Cross, Northeastern, WEAVE (a Worcester women's
   group  to end violence), another Worcester group to end sexual assault, and
   SWAGLY  (a  local gay/lesbian group) amoung others.  The media turn out was
   disappointing.   It seems they have trouble leaving Boston.  This event was
   *clearly*  a  news-worthy  event.   WAAF,  WTAG,  the  Worcester Telegram &
   Gazette  were  there,  along  with some independents and Boston papers (not
   sure  which  ones).   Plus  the  Dice concert-program publishers were there
   taking  photos  too.   I  heard  some radio stations did a story on it this
   morning, (including the piece a reporter did with Jackson), saying that for
   some  reason  the Dice show only lasted an hour.  I hear there is a bad "it
   was  like  a  boy's locker-room" review of his show in the Herald today.  I
   spoke  with  the  reporter  too,  though  she  was  more  interested  in my
   description  of the DEC Valuing Differences program (which she promised not
   to air).

   Against the  forty  of  us  was  a  constant  queue of a few hundred people
   waiting  in lines to pass thru the metal detectors to get inside.  It was a
   mostly  male,  18-26 yr old crowd.  We carried signs and walked around in a
   circle right in front of the lines at the front entrance.  I carried a sign
   which  read  "REAL MEN VALUE WOMEN." Since my personal goal was to hand out
   pamphlets  and to talk to people, I left the circle and stood ten feet away
   on  the corner of the intersection with the sign, greeting arriving patrons
   and cars stopped at the red light.

   Here are  some  experiences  I had 'manning' that intersection corner which
   may help to describe the evening...

   - There  was  not  *one*  sympathetic  man  the  entire evening.  I mean, I
   greeted  *hundreds*.   The only non-agressive male response I got was a "No
   thanks  buddy"  from  an older man.  The most common reaction, about 3/4 of
   the  time,  was  a  spit  to the ground and saying "f*ck'in FAGGOTS" to his
   buddies.   Other  times  it was "Dice ruulz! Yeah!", other buddies chanting
   "Dice!  Dice!  Dice!",  saying "Hickory dickory dock" <from a Dice routine>
   and  hounds  of  buddy  laughter, and upon seeing the protest - a delighted
   "Yeah!  Dice-man  ruulz!  Ah-sum!".  A couple of times I got "Ohhh, we know
   why  you're  doing thaaaat! Hee-haw-hee." [male feminists do it just to get
   easy sex.  Oh please...]

   - Three  separate  times  having men yell "If yah's want ta stop rapes, why
   aren't 'chas down at the combat zone!?!" [because 60-80% of rape is done by
   acquaintances I'd shout back].

   - Many  times  conversation  with  men would end up something like this man
   "You're  here  to  stop  rape,  well f*ck you.  F*ck women" and his buddies
   joining  in "Yeah, women are for f*cking" and starting a chant "F*ck women!
   F*ck women! F*ck women!"

   - There  were  men  walking across the street who were yanking 'their bimbo
   woman'  wildly  behind  them,  like  one  might perhaps do to a dog who had
   misbehaved  and  wouldn't  come along.  As they would pass, "Out of my way,
   faggot." It was pathetic.  [how could anyone be in a devaluing relationship
   like that??]

   - Many  times  the  male  response  from  cars  driving by was "DIE fucking
   faggots!!"  I  mean OFTEN.  It was as though all these guys were programmed
   by  the  same  source.   If  I  ever thought gay-hate crimes weren't a real
   problem...  [Why are men who value women 'gay', because 'real' straight men
   don't, right? :-(]

   - While  the  crowd  waiting  in line was totally negative, there were many
   people  (mostly women but some men too) who were supportive when they drove
   by  the  intersection.   They  honked  their  horns and gave big smiles and
   thumbs-up as they read my sign.

   - I had given up on talking to both partners of couples walking up, because
   the  men  would  just spout their stuff like above and that was that.  So I
   started  concentrating  on  the  female  partner, specifically coming up to
   *her*  and  giving  *her* the pamphlet.  Most were eager to accept it, some
   very,  still  others *loved* it.  [I sensed that some really didn't want to
   be  there].   Many women who arrived w/o male partners and were waiting for
   their  boyfriends,  actually  came  up  to me to talk and find out what the
   action  was  about.  But not that all women were supportive either, several
   were  just  like their boyfriends.  However, it was always the men who were
   the  ones  to chant and jeer.  And it was interesting to note how the women
   acted differently in peresence of their boyfriends and without.

   - And  despite  targeting  the  women,  several times the men would rip the
   pamphlet  out of their interested partner's hands, "She doesn't want that!"
   And that was that.  

   - The  mass  of  men  in  line chanting back a deafening "Dice! Dice! Dice!
   Dice!"  and  toward  the  women  marching  in circle, "Dykes! Dykes! Dykes!
   Dykes!"  [women  involved  in  activism are 'gay' because 'real' women obey
   their boyfriends, right? :-(]

   The most dramatic moments for me where...

   - The Centrum opened a side entrance visible around the corner.  One of our
   men, (foolishly), put himself into the exact middle of that crowd, who were
   already  pushing  aggressively  to  get  inside.  Jackson and I saw this one
   lonely  sign  sticking  out  of the middle of a mass of waving and chanting
   "Dice! Dice! Dice!" arms. We rushed over and pulled him out.

   Several photographers  came  rushing  over.   The  crowd was now all on the
   stairs  behind  us.   Jackson  and  I  stood  in  front  of  them,  calmly,
   peacefully,  holding  out  a  pamphlet  to the crowd of about a hundred who
   refused  to  touch  them.   Behind  us, in stark contrast, was this mass of
   waving  arms,  faces  contorted  with extreme emotion, jeering and chanting
   "Dice!  Dice! Dice!", fingers and arms being struck back and forth to point
   the  chant  at  us.   I  could  feel the wind off their hands.  We were two
   people in front of a thrashing sea of violent force.

   As all  the cameras flashed, someone reached up and tore a huge bite out of
   my  "REAL  MEN  VALUE  WOMEN"  sign  and  there  were  cheers  all  around.
   [Afterwards  one  of  the female participants remarked, "Figures, they only
   ripped  out  the part that said 'women' too :-)].  It's going make one hell
   of a picture!

   - Many  limousines  past  me  by on the corner, quite a few rental 'stretch
   limousines',  many  stopped  to jeer out the window.  Some took the fliers.
   But  there  was one.  The biggest one I have ever seen outside NYC.  Maroon
   with  tacky  airbrushed fantasy artwork all over the side.  Obviously not a
   rental.   With  California  plates.   Stopped  right  in front of me.  Just
   minutes before showtime.  The window ominously only came down half an inch.
   I  couldn't  see  inside  but  a woman asked "What's this all about guy?" I
   said, "Read it and find out." The hands of two women and a man scrambled to
   the  window,  and  those  three  pamphlets  were sucked in like a highpower
   vacuum cleaner had found them....

   I dunno,  but the mere thought of the Dice-man himself reading our pamphlet
   made  me tickled pink.  I'm proud of that pamphlet! Let him read it.  Maybe
   it'll shed some light - who knows.  It if was him, at least he knows why we
   were there... the possibility made me chuckle anyway.

   - The  strangest  person  I  talked  to  was  a  woman  who asked why I was
   protesting  Clay.   She  then  asked why I wasn't protesting Robin Williams
   because  "he  makes  fun  of religion and God." I explained that I was here
   primarily  to  stop  sexual  assault  and  violence against women, and that
   people  making  fun  of  religion  wasn't  very  high  up on my "Victims of
   Violence" list for our state. 

   She then  told  me  that  she is going to Clay with her family (who she was
   apparently  waiting  to meet) because she read in "Us" magazine that ADC is
   really  such  a  nice  man in person and, and I quote, "he promised that he
   would  never  make  a joke against God." I didn't even want to ask her what
   religion  of hers accepts violence against women to guard against profanity
   toward her God.  But go figure.  I just don't get it.

   I am  really  glad  that I jotted down some quick notes last night.  It now
   all  seems  like  a bad memory to me.  I already can't remember half of the
   things that happened.  I guess an unconscious part of me still doesn't want
   to accept what I saw.

   But yet  I still find myself haunted by those images of women being dragged
   and  yanked  across  the  street like chattel.  That really bothered me and
   still bothers me. 

   I doubt  that  we reached any men last night, but some of the women eagerly
   took  a  pamphlet.   And I feel that at the very least, those women now may
   have  a heightened sense of sexual assault awareness.  And if nothing else,
   at  least  now  both those men and women know that not all REAL MEN act the
   Andrew Dice Clay way.

   Time to  recoup.   Jackson  too will be taking a week or two off after this
   draining night as well. It was quite an experience!

   -Erik

	Question for MikeZ:   Do you condone any of the behaviour expressed
	in the previous notes Erik just posted?


	I understand that we can't really "blame" ADC directly for inciting
	these sorts of people, but......do you really feel there is any
	benefit toward ADC continuing his present course?


	What sort of benefit to the community does ADC bring when his
	shows bring such scum out of the woodwork?  If large amounts of
	people like this really come to see ADC, isn't it an indicator
	that perhaps "jokes" like ADC do have an effect on people?

	I have a hard time saying "funny hahaha" when I read notes like
	Erik just wrote.


	Perhaps ADC doesn't have much of an adverse effect on the "normal"
	male, but I have a hard time accepting that he doesn't incite
	males like the ones Erik came across.


	This terrifies me.

	kathy

    I really appreciate the time and considerable effort you have gone
    to in both your actions and your writing.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    thanks for entering all of that. you should be proud.
    

    Erik, thank you to you and to your compatriots for taking a public
    stance for women and their right to live without fear.  I know it's not
    easy to be (virtually) alone in the face of an aggressive mob, but
    perhaps with time and education and more visibility on the part of men 
    like you, your minority will become the majority, and women will be
    able to walk alone and unafraid.
    
    My thanks to ALL men who realize that behind the anti-woman "jokes" are
    true anti-woman feelings that are a threat to the health of our
    society.
    
    Regards,
    Karen

Thank you, Eric.  I pray for the day that the ratio will be reversed.

E Grace

oh. and re: .60, words *are* images.

As long as people laugh at ethnic, racial, etc., and/or violent "humour", it
remains acceptable to laught at ethnic, racial, etc., and/or violent "humour".

    
    	My thanks to Erik, too, along with all the others who support
    	the work being done by REAL MEN and affiliated groups.
    
    	I'm impressed and quite moved by your account of last night,
    	Erik.  Thanks again for taking the time to share it with us.
    

    Erik, my thanks also for doing what you're doing and for typing
    your story.
    
    Eileen
    

    Mike,
    
    My personal take on your analogy is correct; those people picketing a
    Planned Parenthood clinic are correctly targeting other individuals who
    are contemplating something which they consider morally repugnant. And
    the picketers have a right to try, peaceably, to change the minds of
    those going to the clinic.
    
    Therefore, its quite logical that SOME people going to an ADC concert
    already approve of violence toward women. ADC is reinforcing that. Just
    as PP reinforces the idea that abortion is an acceptable alternative.
    And some people, including the group called REAL MEN, want to inform
    ticket holders that not everyone feels that violence toward women is
    acceptable.
    
    I think it is unfortunate that because you like ADC and believe that
    *you* do not make the leap from appreciating his humor to appreciating
    a "proper place and time" for physical/sexual/verbal abuse of women,
    doesn't mean that REAL MEN haven't found a good target.
    
    Let's be honest about your analogy. What percentage of women going into
    Planned Parenthood are pro-abortion? (meaning they would have one).
    Let's guestimate 62%. Now, would it seem reasonable that the pro-life
    contingent would find this a proper target? To me it seems logical. 
    What about the 38% who are against abortion? Those who are just going
    for birth control, or a pregnancy test. Is it fair that they are
    targeted? Should they feel misunderstood and insulted? Misrepresented?
    I don't think so, because Planned Parenthood is known to support
    abortion. If they are unaware of this, they need to be better informed.
    
    So, going back to you, the "innocent bystander" at an ADC concert line.
    Either you disagree that violence against women is wrong, or you agree.
    If you agree, you may still find jokes about violence against women
    amusing. Isn't it reasonable for someone to differ with you on this
    point? And to try to persuade you that these jokes may actually
    encourage some people, those who think violence is okay, to take it
    even less seriously? Isn't that what a joke is - not taking something
    seriously?
    
    I sense that you feel that "Real Men" are trying to rain on your
    parade. Trying to spoil your enjoyment of a comedy routine. And you're
    right. They are. Because they are trying to get you to see that
    violence toward women, suggested or real, is NOT funny to everyone.
    To some people, its revolting, to others offensive, and for one
    particular group of people, the joke is on them, 'cause they're the
    ones getting beaten up.
    
    I wish you understood that some people think its time to stop laughing
    about something that's actually rather tragic.

> How would you feel if you went to a Planned Parenthood clinic
> and found a protest with people carrying signs and passing out
> literature that claims your presence there links you with people
> who kill children?

Funny you should ask. Let's see, the way I feel when I got to a Planned
Parenthood clinic and see the protesters is angry, sad, frustrated, and proud
that I'm there to help the clinic stay open. I quietly stand facing them
preventing them from stopping people from entering. I'm strictly
non-confrontational and non-violent.

> Should I feel any differently if I go to a Clay concert and
> find a protest with people carrying signs and passing out literature
> that claims my presence there links me with people who rape, beat,
> and kill women?

No. If you disagree with them, I would hope you would feel and act EXACTLY as
I do when I go to a clinic defense.

I know of NOT ONE SINGLE CLINIC VOLUNTEER that shouts epithets at the
protesters, who threatens them, who spits on them.

	-- Charles

>                      <<< Note 441.78 by CAESAR::FOSTER >>>



	*SMOOCH!*

	Thank you!  Wonderful note.


	(And thanks too, to you, Erik, for posting your experiences!
	I salute you for going......perhaps, if I had the courage, I
	would have gone too!)


	kath
	

    
    Another "thanks", Erik.
    
    

    
    Thanks very much, Erik.  I'd like to say much more than "thanks", but I
    can't find the words.
    
    Christine

    Erik
    
    Thankyou from me also.
    
    Bonnie

    from today's Boston Globe, Comedy Review by Steve Morse
    
    Despite criticism, Clay's dirt is even viler than usual

    
    WORCESTER -- A group of 20 protesters picketed Andrew Dice Clay's 
    crudely chauvinistic show at the Centrum last night.  Carrying signs 
    that read "Hating women is no joke" and "We're not laughing," the 
    picketers were from various men's awareness groups that didn't 
    appreciate his Neanderthal tongue.
    
    What did they get for their effort?

    "We got some whores protesting out front tonight," Clay told his 9,000 
    fans inside, ending any thought that he might temper his show in the 
    wake of a landslide of negative reaction this year.

    If anything, Clay was more vile and vulgar than usual.  Recalling his 
    experience last spring when singer Sinead O'Connor boycotted his 
    performance, he said he was sorry he couldn't meet her because he 
    thought she's want to have oral sex with him.

    But then came a moment that showed just how far removed from reality 
    Clay's ego can be.  "Sometimes it gets to you once in a while, but you 
    got to believe in yourself," he said.  "And sometimes you do touch 
    people."  He then introduced a friend who had been "touched" at a Clay 
    show and had since beaten cancer.  The implication was that Clay's 
    comedy had something to do with the healing.

    The height of gall?  You bet.  The Brooklyn-born Clay is in some sort 
    of dreamland if he thinks his comedy is a public service.  How do you 
    canonize a guy who goes on to make sick fun of women, ethnic groups, 
    midgets, fat people and even babies?

    But most of all, of course, women.  Staring at a woman in front (a 
    rare sight, since 80 percent of the crowd was male), he bellowed, 
    "Where's the short dress?  Where's the attitude of treat me like the 
    pig that I am?"

    Trying to make his act more topical, Clay reserved special venom for 
    the female Boston sportswriter who has charged several New England 
    Patriot football players with sexual harassment.  Clay dumped on her, 
    saying he couldn't believe she went to college just so she could look 
    at men in locker rooms.

    The sad thing is that Clay has a good sense of comic timing.  But his 
    lowest-common-denominator sex banter is so narrowly defined that it 
    becomes grim and boring after an hour on stage.  And this time he 
    didn't even play drums or show clips from his movie flop, "The 
    Adventures of Ford Fairlane."  No wonder many fans stayed away this 
    time -- he sold out two Centrum shows last year, but failed to sell 
    out one this trip.
    

    re:.52
    
    	� How many [women] have been raped or beaten as a
    	result of his routine? �
    
    Probably a hell of a lot more than you think. Still, the question
    of "how many?" is irrelevant. Where do you draw the line? If 1000
    women are beaten/raped as a result, is that OK?  What about 100?
    50?  20?  10?  At what number does it stop being a tragedy and
    start being "well, that's life"?  If *ONE* woman gets beaten or
    raped because of Clay's routine, that's too many.
    
    You *do* make a good point. Clay has a right to make his jokes.
    He also has the responsibility of acknowledging how his jokes harm
    other people. Clay's humor isn't just a nudge-nudge-wink-wink.
    It incites. It inflames. Just as Hitler's speeches incited violence
    against Jews.
    
    --- jerry

    
    ADC doesn't just incite violence towards women. He *is* violence
    towards women.
    
    D.
    

    Honest question here....
    Do you folks, that feel that ADC is the cause of violence blah blah,
    also feel that females that do the same sort of thing (making crude
    jokes about men) also is wrong?   
    
    Personally, I can take just so much of ADC, then it gets booring.  The
    same goes for some of the females that makes the same sexist comments
    towards males,.. they are funny for a short.. then it becomes very
    boring....
    
    OH, nevermind wether or not they make "violent" comments or not, just
    the common sexist bull...

.76>  .61>    I know personally one woman who was badly beaten when she refused
.76>  .61>    to have sex with her boyfriend after the earlier Dice Clay "show"
.76>  .61>    mentioned in the article. 
.76>  
.76>  	I know women who were beaten after their husbands got drunk.
.76>  
.76>  	I also know plenty of men who can drink and not beat their wives.
.76>  
.76>  	And I see no reason to picket the liquor store.

    Mike, this is a good analogy and a good point.  
    
    It would be a more accurate analogy, however, if the liquor store
    featured big posters with quotes like "Men who drink our whiskey
    don't let women push them around" and "have a drink, throw your
    woman on the bed, tear her clothes off."
    
    I don't think Clay is himself a rapist or a woman-beater simply
    for making violent anti-woman jokes.  I almost believe him when he
    claims that his monologue is an act, not a representation of his
    personal views.  Nor do I believe that the whisky in its bottles
    on the shelves of the liquor store is violent.  No one but the man
    doing the beating is ultimately responsible for the beating. But
    that doesn't mean that other people and other circumstances don't
    contribute to that man's decision to beat a woman.  
    
    Clay didn't cause Bob (not his real name) to beat Janice (not her
    real name either).  But by creating an atmosphere of hate and
    violence in which Bob's actions are not only acceptable but
    approved, he certainly encourages such actions.
    
    But, I repeat, encouraging an action is not the same thing as
    causing it. 
    
    --bonnie

    <flame_on>
    
    I find it obscene that Planned Parenthood and the women who go there
    are being compared to ADC's "act" and the people who go to see him/it.
    
    Bottom line is, the pig is not even funny.
    
    <flame_off>
    

    re .93
    
    Unfortunately, to some people, it is an incredibly valid comparison.
    There are people, men and women, who believe that abortion is murder.
    And therefore take it as seriously as rape, spousal abuse and
    denigration of women, and are willing to take an active role in
    preventing it. To blind ourselves to their side of the argument
    is the surest way to prevent compromise and understanding.
    
    To recognize that they feel that their cause is valid adds credence to
    the validity of the picketing of the ADC concert. Its a civil liberties
    issue all the way around. 
    
    Well, at any rate, that's my opinion.
    

    re: .94
    
    I personally don't find Clay offensive.  I outgrew being shocked
    by bad language more years ago than I like to think about.  I also
    don't find him  particularly outrageous.  He's got the persona of
    a certain kind of foul-mouthed narrow-minded bigot down pat, using
    the same standard comedic technique Woody Allen uses to project
    the amiable intellectual loser and Pauly Shore uses to project the
    total airhead.  How close any of these personas is to the real
    comedian underneath is anybody's guess.
    
    I've known enough of Clay's bigots in real life to not be shocked
    or surprised by the idea that this kind of persona would be
    popular or find a responsive chord in a lot of people.   But I
    think that's exactly what people are objecting to.  This kind of
    person is real.  He exists out there in bars and before the bar,
    on assembly lines and in board rooms.  And these actual living and
    breathing men, some of them probably men we know, are beating and
    raping real living and breathing women, some fo them women we
    know.
    
    And if you've been exposed to the horror of helping a friend do
    her housework for a couple of days because she's still laid up
    from a beating, or patching together women who still won't bring
    charges, or even watching a man who's a friend trying to
    understand why the woman he loves left him over a little slapping
    around, suddenly that person up there on stage mouthing off might
    not seem  so funny any more.  He seems dangerous. He threatens
    people you know and care about.  
    
    --bonnie

    Please take any discussion on the topic of abortion itself to topic 
    49 and ensure it complies with the guidelines in 49.0
    
    -Jody
    

    I have made choices in my life because of someone else.  Because I
    feel it is the right thing to do.  I like to think I am not a racist,
    but I have laughed at racist jokes in the past.  I do not listen
    to racist jokes now because it has been brought to my attention that
    this type of humor could promote racism.
    
    It would seem to me that people who were aware of the violence against
    women and especially those people that have heard first hand of
    violence through this conference would be supportive of an effort to
    picket the ADC performance.

    
    	I want to thank all the women and men in the womannoter's community
    	for all the wonderful words of support I received both here in the
    	notesfile and in mail. It was so refreshing and recharging after
    	facing that much hostility. Thank you so much for the support.
    
    	Wednesday night we had so many men yelling at us that we're just
    	wasting our time. The out-pouring of support here is just another
    	reason to feel "Not by a long shot!" 
    
    	At the very least it provided an alternate image of what a 'real
    	man' is, but I think it accomplished a whole lot more.  As much as
    	I'd like to explain things to the few men in here and especially
    	the negative response from men in mennotes, I feel I have to
    	take a break for a few days. I'm not exactly re-charged enough yet
    	to deal with more negative male responses so soon (even though much 
    	of it is the typical expected responses). I'll come back in a few
    	days when I'm more rested and in better shape to deal with it...
    	I also feel can rely on others here to provide good explanations. 
    
    	But for now I just wanted to thank everyone who responded. It
    	speeded up my recharge time dramatically. If you only knew how much
    	it helped to have that sense of 'community support' and proof that
    	we were not alone out there Wednesday night. Thanks so much!
                                                   
    	Yours for a better world...
    
    	-Erik
    
                                                                         

    Erik, 

    I've been reading this string with a strange mix of feelings as I think
    it fantastic that groups like "Real Men" exist - I love both the name
    and the charter of the group. I wish we has something like that here.
    But it's also of course incredibly sad that they're needed. 

    I've never seen an ADC show and to be frankly I doubt if I ever will,
    because I don't think it's something that would "catch" here and any
    broadcasting union would bother to try it, but from the comments I've
    seen so far in Notes I get the impression he's really quite vile. If
    anything I consider that proven by your experiences as you wrote them
    up here, and I think you've done a great job! 

    Negativity is everywhere, but in this case it can only come from people
    who still not understand that violence and abuse have absolutely no
    place whatsoever in a civilised society and it's important to remember
    that. Thank you for your notes entered in here, and thank you for the
    stance you took and take!!

    Ad

Thanks Erik.

	-- Charles

    	RE: .101  Erik
    
    	> As much as I'd like to explain things to the few men in here and 
    	> especially the negative response from men in mennotes, I feel I have 
    	> to take a break for a few days. I'm not exactly re-charged enough yet
    	> to deal with more negative male responses so soon (even though much 
    	> of it is the typical expected responses).
    
    	I hear ya, Erik.
    
    	> If you only knew how much it helped to have that sense of 'community 
    	> support' and proof that we were not alone out there Wednesday night. 
    	> Thanks so much!
                                                  
    	Well, you lifted my morale a good 90 points - thank YOU!!
    
    	> Yours for a better world...
    
    	Let's hope!
    
    	Have a good weekend!
    
    	- Suzanne

    Re. 105:
    
    Why the qualification, Mike? I don't think any of the three you
    mentioned is necessarily negative - neither in itself proves an
    unwillingness to think about the issues raised.  But opposition of the
    action is a different kettle of fish. That gets pretty close to saying
    whatever ADC says is a healthy viewpoint. I don't see how anyone who
    doesn't really support that viewpoint can possibly be threatened by
    this "Real Men" action. Unless...
    
    Do you?
    
    Ad

    Re. 107.
    
>	Because I wanted to know if you were talking about me.  Were you?
    
    I made a general remark about negativity, Mike. If you think you fit
    under that negativity umbrella be my guest. But Erik was talking about
    general negativity, about responses he encountered in the action, about
    responses in other notesfiles, *and* probably about responses in this
    notesfile and so was I. My note didn't reply to you but to him.
    
    Methinks there's a lot of people in this conference who assume very
    automatically that any specific note is aimed at them.
    
>	Did I guess the right question you meant for "do you?"?
    
    No, the right question was whether you could see how anyone who doesn't
    really support ADC's viewpoint could feel threatened from this "Real
    Men" action. I don't. But nevertheless thanks for the other remarks.
    Especially the one which says you don't oppose the action. You're
    rather vocal on your viewpoint of it being a waste of time, so this
    might clarify a bit.
    
    Ad

    I think a lot of men who were raised in traditional ways, but who
    are not necessarily violent, abusive, or even domineering feel
    threatened by feminist activism by either sex. 
    
    They seem to feel that they personally are being devalued, told
    they're out of date.  And since many of them already feel
    threatened by obsolesence on the job and in other arenas, I could
    see where such a protest could be perceived as symbol of
    everything that endangers their life.
    
    Some people feel threatened by, embarrassed by, or seriously
    annoyed by any kind of public protest.  As a Californian of my
    acquaintance said about some people passing out leaflets in the
    St. Louis airport, "Can't they exercise their right of free speech
    in somebody else's personal space?"
    
    --bonnie

    Erik,
    
      I'm mostly read-only but I just had to reply and thank you for
    sharing your experience and thank Real Men and the other groups involed
    for having the courage to stand up for their beliefs.
    
    Roberta

    
    	Thank you, Erik Debriae.
    
    						nancy b.