Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Can someone explain to me (in simple terms, think of me as a four year
old when it comes to sports, UG!) why they need to do interviews in locker
rooms at all?  What's wrong with more traditional venues?  Why can't
the reporters wait till the players have showered, dressed, etc?

D!

    I agree totally.  To deny women reporters the same access to sports
    figures as that which is granted to male reporters is simply a way to
    make sure that they never really make it in that profession.  If
    modesty were the real issue, other solutions which do not deny equal
    access would be just as effective and would have been adopted by now.
    
    I think the underlying issue is the belief that women shouldn't be
    sports reporters -- its a man's job.  (Besides, what kind of woman would
    want that kind of job?????  Real women don't know anything about
    sports..... etc, etc, etc,.)  Through the years there have been a lot
    of jobs denied to women because they weren't "appropriate".  That was
    usually just an excuse and ways to fix the things that made them
    "inappropriate" were found.  
    
    In this case, either you close the locker rooms to ALL reporters, or
    you open it to ALL reporters.  To do toherwise unfairly discriminates
    on basis of gender. 

    .3 is replying to the basenote - a couple slipped in ahead of me.

re: .1:

Journalists are under incredible time-pressure: after the game, they must
get a few quotes, then write their story and dictate/modem it to their
editors in order to meet their deadlines.

Consider "Monday Night Football" ending at midnight and the next morning's
Boston Globe: the paper is already printing (for the editions that go by
truck to Vermont and New Hampshire) -- in order to make the "home delivery"
and newsstand printings, the article must be on the press by 12:30-1:00.
That means it must be written, transmitted to the paper, edited, typeset,
and stuffed onto the press in an extremely short time.  (One of the Globe
columnists discussed this in an article last week.)

Broadcast journalists are covering the story for the sports slot that
begins, perhaps, 20 minutes after the game ends.  This can only be done by

-- allowing all accredited reporters access to the players after the game.
-- disallowing some accredited reporters access because they are of
   inappropriate gender.
-- disallowing any access until the players have dressed.

Since the name of the game is publicity, the teams have chosen to allow
immediate access.

At the Boston Marathon press-room, we try to get full results for the
elite field in the hands of the working press within 5 minutes of receiving
the official times from the finish-line (which is about 5-10 minutes after
the race ends).  There may be a tiny bit of direct access to the winner
right after the race (for the benefit of the tv people), then the runner
goes directly into the medical tent for drug testing.  There is an
open press-interview about 20 minutes after the finish (in a hotel ballroom).

Martin.

    
    I assume that all the women out there crying sexist have no problems
    with allowing men into female gym rooms for interviews.
    



                                     L.J.

    Interesting discussion, but I think claiming equal rights at whatever
    cost goes a bit too far in my opinion.
    Has anyone ever thought of the fact that players (male or female) might
    feel uncomfortable with reporters of the opposite gender in the locker
    room while they're having their shower etc.?
    To put it bluntly...
    If I was coach of a team and someone in my team would tell he/she
    doesn't feel happy about reporters of the opposite gender in the
    locker room right after the game, said reporters would have to go over
    my dead body to get in.
    Equal rights or no equal rights, the feelings of my team and it's
    individual members would have priority.
    
    Charles

    	RE: .7  

    	> I assume that all the women out there crying sexist have no problems
    	> with allowing men into female gym rooms for interviews.
    
    	Although you only mention women (and appear to be suggesting that
    	women are protesting against being excluded from male locker rooms
    	after professional sporting events) - you must surely know that
    	a great many men are also calling for women having equal access
    	to locker rooms.  If not, please be advised of this.

    	The problem is when some men scream and wail about women being
    	allowed to do their jobs (after these men's employer - the NFL 
    	- has already guaranteed women this opportunity.)

    	If these players want privacy, they could give interviews somewhere
    	else.  What's the big thrill of walking around naked in front of
    	male reporters, anyway?

    re .7
    
    I see, it's equal rights except when....... Everytime someone
    finds another "except when" the people  -- in this case women -- it
    is applied to become just a little less equal.
    
    Using your hypothetical -- if you were a coach and one of your athletes
    didn't want a reporter of the opposite gender in the locker room --
    isn't the most obvious answer to ban ALL reporters from the locker room
    until the players are dressed?

    I wouldn't have a problem with it.  I assume they are in there to
    report, not ogle.
    	Linda

    I obviously haven't been clear enough.
    Or people only read what they want to read, so here goes again.
    If a woman in my team would feel uncomfortable when reporters of the 
    opposite gender etc....
    If a man im my team etc....
    Clear now? What I'm trying to say that it has sweet nothing to do
    with equal rights, but with people feeling unconfortable.
    
    
    Charles

    
    	RE: .14  Charles
    
    	If people feel uncomfortable being interviewed naked by ANYONE,
    	then ALL the reporters can wait in an area outside the locker
    	room.
    
    	NFL is big business - if women are excluded from locker rooms,
    	it amounts to discrimination.
    
    	If NFL players are uncomfortable with women reporters in their
    	locker rooms, they can arrange to meet ALL the reporters some-
    	where else.
    
    	Clear to you now?

    Very clear.
    What you say is if they don't feel comfortable with women around, men
    should be barred as well.
    I *do* hope however you apply the same rule when we're talking about
    female locker rooms.
    On the other hand, discussions like this don't do very much good to
    the overall equal rights discussion by giving me and quite likely a lot
    of other men the feeling that we have to accept everything women want,
    ignoring our own rights.
    
    And for the record, I detest men only and women only groups (with a few
    exceptions maybe).
    
    
    Charles

    .14
    Uncomfortable?
    
    I wonder if Lisa was uncomfortable?  I wonder if the players standing
    in her face naked were uncomfortable?
    

    Peple do funny things when trying to hide the fact they're not
    comfortable.
    On the other hand it can be a way of showing "we don't want you here".
    
    Charles

    RE: .16  Charles

    > What you say is if they don't feel comfortable with women around, men
    > should be barred as well.
    > I *do* hope however you apply the same rule when we're talking about
    > female locker rooms.

    What I said was, "If PEOPLE feel uncomfortable being interviewed naked
    by ANYONE, then ALL the reporters can wait in an area outside the
    locker room."

    When I say people, I don't use the standard default that PEOPLE := MEN.
    I'm talking about the other half of the human race, too.

    > On the other hand, discussions like this don't do very much good to
    > the overall equal rights discussion by giving me and quite likely a lot
    > of other men the feeling that we have to accept everything women want,
    > ignoring our own rights.

    NFL players have the right to insist they be given total privacy in
    the locker room by not allowing ANYONE to interview them naked.  They
    can either shower quickly (in the 10 minutes allowed before opening
    the doors to reporters,) or they can wait til the reporters leave, or
    they can arrange to have ALL interviews conducted somewhere else.

    What they CAN'T do is to exclude women from the sportswriting profession
    by only allowing men to do this job the way it needs to be done.

    Simple enough, don't you think?

    They're not excluding women from the profession, just from their locker
    room, like they probably would exclude a male reporter they don't want
    there.
    
    Charles

    To exclude women from the locker room interviews that men are allowed
    would have the effect of handicapping them as sports reporters. They
    wouldn't be able to do their job as well as the men.
    
    Bonnie

Nothing's really as simple as any of us would like it. To resolve the issue, all
of the following (at least) need to be taken into consideration (in random 
order):

- Right/sense of privacy/propriety on players' part

- Rights of women sportswriters to have equal access for player interviews

- Time allotted to shower (I doubt 10 minutes would be enough - is there a
  separate showerhead for each player?)

- Desire (right?) of reporters to get interviews immediately after the game,
  so the players' reactions are still fresh

- Deadline for reporters to get their interviews done and phoned in - if
  the time allotted to shower is increased, is the deadline missed?

- Rights of those of us who don't give a fig about team sports to avoid the
  entire issue

- Existing tradition of locker-room interviews - traditions fall hard

In the discussions to date, my perception is that different people focus on
different issues, without trying to take on the whole picture.

    Charles,
    
    You mean, like a black reporter, fer instance?  Like, it's all
    right to place arbitary handicaps on *some* reporters and not
    others?  It's all right for those handicaps to be placed there
    by people who don't even pay the reporters' salaries?  Just so
    that *their* tender little feelings won't be hurt?  Pfui.
    
    Come.  Think about it.  Would you like to be denied a job because
    ONE of the people you MIGHT end up working with didn't like `your
    kind'?  Of course not.  It's not that we're talking about some tiny,
    incidental part of a reporter's job; we're talking about the heart
    of it.
    
    						Ann B.

    I wasn't referring to a black reporter, but to a reporter who has
    written nasty articles about the team.
    
    Charles

    So much for Freedom of the Press.

    For a sprots writer to be effective, the writer must have the same
    availability of access shared by other writers.  Being denied an
    interview or only granted an interview too late to meet deadline
    is tantamount to preventing the writer from working.
    
    A male writer might be excluded because of personal issues (perhaps
    for writing storoes that bash the team) but I expect not for long
    without loud complaints. But I've never heard of players doing to
    a male writer what was done to Olsen.
    
    A political writer cannot be barred from a press briefing because
    of race or sex.  Why should a sportswriter be barred from an interview
    session that is open to other reporters?
    
    I understand the discomfort that some people may feel about having
    a stranger of the opposite sex around in a changing room. But that
    discomfort is no excuse for poking ones genitals in another persons
    face when that person is legally and reasonably in the room. (For
    that fact, I think the action indicates the players were anything but 
    uncomfortable with Olsen's presence.)  
    
    Olsen was harrassed. The players were jerks and possibly criminal. 
    If reporters are allowed in locker rooms, then all reporters are allowed.
    
       Margaret

Well my view is, it's fine to let the women interview the super-achieving
men in the locker rooms, as long as the men get to interview the super-
achieving women in the 



beer commercials.

D.

I seem to have an issue with this whole thing that no one else has brought
up at all:

This idea of "access to players".  Access?  To a person?  No one has
"access" to *me*.  I am not a commodity.  So I am a little uncomfortable
with this talk of reporters having "access" to athletes, as if the
athletes were public commodities subject to distribution, rather than
people.

Now, I recognize that there is something about being in a national sport
that makes people "public figures", and that public figures in our society
have fewer rights than "normal people".  (Ever noticed that the P&P prohibits
slamming people in notesfiles, except "public figures"?)  But this whole issue
brings to the fore something that has long made me uncomfortable - this idea
of public figures being a commodity; what we, as the general population,
have some right to them, some claim on them.

Realistically, I do realize that reporter's jobs are made or broken by
their 'access' to celebrities.  So I support equal opportunity interviewing.
But, frankly, if someone came to me and said "I have equal right to 
you as <another random person> because it affects my job" I would
say "f*ck off! I don't have any responsibility to provide access to
myself for anyone I don't want to, regardless about 'jobs' or equal rights
or anything else."

but then, I am not a public figure.

How far does being a public figure cut into the personal rights of those
individuals who are public figures?

D!

    re .28:
    
    What's the problem?  Dec insures that I have "access" to my
    manager and his manager, etc. if I need them to do my job.
    What's the difference?
    

>Dec insures that I have "access" to my
>    manager and his manager, etc. if I need them to do my job.
>    What's the difference?

For one thing, reporters are not employed by the celebrities they
interview.

Secondly, you only have *some* access to your manager.  presumably,
there is a limit.  For instance, you can't call hir at home in the
middle of the night.  You can't go on vacation with hir.  Probably,
there are even time when s/he is in crunch mode that you can't even
have access to hir at work.  (Well, some managers do that.)

Thirdly, I wasn't *just* referring to the access reporters have to
celebs, but the concept that the Public, as a whole, has a *right*
to access celebs (via reporters.)

If you can't talk to your manager, Joe Schmo on the street does not
feel violated.  If a reporter can't talk to Jane Bigwigsuperstar,
Joe Schmo on the street feels gypped.  He shouts "freedom of the
press!"  But who shouts "right to privacy" for Jane Bigwigsuperstar?

This ties in to why I am confused about why reporters need to interview
anyone in the locker room - it seems to stem from the same concept that
We the People have a right to access our public figures.

D!

I don't think players are required to be interviewed.  There are a
number of Boston baseball and basketball players that don't talkk to
the press...

john

    Are women requesting that the interviewees treat them differently
    than they do male reporters when accessing a locker room after a
    game?   If that's the case, I don't think they belong there.  That
    doens't mean I think harrassment is right (re the Olsen scandel),
    but that was (Ihope) an exception and shouldn't be repeated.  I'm
    just saying that any woman walking into a rowdy locker room after 
    a game should be prepared for seeing partially/unclothed men and
    be able to work with them for the story.
    
    Christine

    I know that there are "stars" that don't talk with the press.  However,
    for most professional athletes, I suspect that talking with the press is 
    essentially part of the job description.  Publicity is all part of
    getting fans to the games and tv coverage etc.  Without the revenues
    from ticket sales and broadcast rights, most, if not all, of the pro
    teams would be out of business.

    
    	RE: .32  Christine
    
    	> Are women requesting that the interviewees treat them differently
    	> than they do male reporters when accessing a locker room after a
    	> game?  
    
    	Not at all.  They just want to be allowed to get their interviews
    	(same as everyone else.)
    
    	A naked man is not a problem for women reporters.  Having the
    	naked man push his penis in one's face while making lewd remarks
    	is a problem.
    

    Suzanne,
    
    I agree with your comments on lewd behavior.  I just wasn't sure
    if people thought women reporters expected different behavior 
    from the athletes than do males.  Now I haven't spent much time
    in a men's locker room, but I wouldn't imagine that the behavior
    Ms. Olsen experienced is typical of a male reporters experience,
    so based on what I know of that particular incident, it was
    harrassment, plain and simple.  Just wanted to make sure that 
    some women did not expect special consideration if doing the
    job.  I hope this makes sense.
    
    Christine

    I see no reason why "anyone" should be allowed in the locker rooms
    at all. If I need to get something from my boss (male or female)
    and they just got back from their lunch time jog, do I have the
    RIGHT to follow them into the shower and pester them with questions
    noooooooooo. Just because reports have deadlines doesn't mean sports
    figures need to be hassled.
     I feel that locker rooms should be off limits to ALL off those
    not part of that team (PLAIN AND SIMPLE)...I have never heard of
    a male reporter going into a female locker room yet!!! 
    
    I think if reporters need to get their story right after the game,
    then they should get the team together BEFORE they enter the locker
    room and before they change........
    just a thought.
    RE. Chris you can interview me anywhere and any time(eh..eh..eh)
    
    Bob

    re:
    
    Bob (.36)
    
    Just name the time and locker room!
    
    Chris

    Back a few notes someone mentioned that women should expect to see
    naked men in a shower room and not be bothered. I think they aren't
    bothered, it was the threatening use of the penis of a large man
    combined with suggestive and threatening language. Given the incidence
    of rape and man to woman violence in our country this is a scary
    situation.

    As for women seeing naked men. Big deal. Do you think we swoon at the
    sight of a penis? In my time at the hospital I saw many naked men both
    accidentally (those gowns are short) and in the line of duty. I
    successfully managed not to attack any of them or to faint dead away.
    If one of them had shook his penis in my face and said "this is what
    you really want" I would have felt harrassed. Does this mean women
    should not work in hospitals?

    For most women, a penis is only as exciting as the man it's attached
    to. Just seeing a naked man doesn't throw us into lust frenzies
    regardless of what you may have read in the Penthouse Advisor. liesl

     The Cincinnati (?) coach who denied a woman reporter access to his
     team's locker room (less than a week after this Patriots incident)
     was fined $35,000.  The most any NFL coach has ever been fined in
     the history of football.     


     We can sit here and debate whether or not women belong in male
     locker rooms or not, but the point is that it's up to the NFL.
     THEY made the rule YEARS ago allowing equal access to locker rooms
     by the press.

     The anger here should NOT be pointed at women reporters, it should
     be pointed at the NFL.  The NFL is not willing to set up
     out-of-the-lockerroom interviews, and you would probably be hard
     pressed to get many of the players to attend them (they love the
     interviews when they are high from the game, but not after they are
     coming down...they just basically want to get the hell out of there).


     The very people that some people here are trying to "protect their
     comfort level, are the very same people that caused the locker room
     rules to go into effect in the first place!

	kath

    I presume we've all noticed that the players' comfort levels are
    not considered when they are on the field, smashing or being
    smashed, nor when they are being harangued by their coach, nor
    when they are naked before their teammates (one or more of whom
    might be gay), nor when they are naked before male sportswriters
    (ditto).  They are supposed to put up with *that* discomfort.
    Yet, somehow, their comfort level suddenly becomes an issue when,
    instead of a man being paid a fraction of what they are paid,
    they are contronted by a woman, trying to do her job -- just like
    all the men mentioned above.
    
    						Ann B.

    To enlighten this note a bit...
    The Coach in question took the main player that all the reporters(male)
    were talking to awat from them and gave the woman report the first
    interview. He thought that the way the lockerroom was set up that the
    players did not have any privaticy in getting showered and dressed.
    
    REK

    The Bengal's coach is Sam Wyche.  It is my belief that he is attempting
    to change the focus of the discussion in the NFL - and remove *all*
    press from the locker rooms.  Until this incident blew up (all
    connotations and double meanings deliberate), I was unaware that the
    press had access to locker rooms after practices, as well as after
    games.  That strikes me as unnecessary, and I wouldn't like it if I
    were a player.
    
    After yesterday's game, Wyche had set up curtains around the showers,
    and forbidden the press to go beyond the curtains.  This gave the
    players some opportunity to get some clothing on before being
    confronted by the media.  Struck me as a reasonable compromise,
    although I understand that not all lockerrooms are large enough to
    accomodate that solution.  It will be interesting to see the reaction
    to that.
    
    Several sports reporters who are themselves former players have said
    that they didn't like having women in the locker room, and it had made
    them uncomfortable.  Their sense is that the best thing at this point
    is to get the press out of the locker room completely, both sexes.
    
    My best hope for resolution to the mess that has been created.........
    
    Investigate the specific case between the Patriots and Lisa Ohlson, and
    award appropriate fines and public apologies.  Kiam is a fossil who
    made a bad situation much, much worse than it needed to be.  I won't be
    using Remington products for a long, long time.
    
    Re-open the 10-year old decision to allow women in the locker rooms,
    and get the press into another space.  If the press must be in the
    locker room, reconfigure them such that the players that want it have
    privacy (preferably also from each other, if they want) for changing
    their clothes.
    
    Then maybe the Pats can concentrate on getting a team together that's
    worth watching, rather than the disaster that they have now.
    
    Alison 

    This NFL thing seems to be 'much ado about nothing.'  Other sports
    have their own locker room rules; ie. in tennis, I think, interviews
    are allowed only outside the locker room or something like that.
    THe point is the other sports have rules that seem to work fine for
    everyone.
    
    Wyche had been warned several times before this time for not allowing
    women reporters in; he knew the consequences of what he was doing.
    
    Rathole:  $35K a week!  This was his fine--one week's pay.
    
    Rathole2:  Lisa Olsen has received death threats and is leaving the
    country. 
    
    Arrghh.
    Maia
    

    .43
    
    Alison -- I'll agree with you if your rephrase your reply to indicate that
    the decision to allow ALL reporters into the locker rooms should be
    revisited.  The NFL did not make the decision to allow women reporters
    into the locker rooms.  They made the decision to allow reporters into
    the locker rooms and reporters -- as ruled by the Supreme Court --
    includes women.                                                    

    
    How about getting the women out of the beer commercials?
    
    (sorry)
    
    D.

    I certainly *meant* my reply to mean ALL reporters out of the locker
    rooms.  Sorry if it wasn't clear.
    
    The NFL started allowing male reporters (the only kind there were) into
    the locker rooms back in the late '40's or early '50's - possibly
    earlier.  In the early '70's, the first women appeared on the scene as
    sports reporters, and caused an unbelieveable ruckus.  They were not,
    initially, allowed in locker rooms and were therefor scooped on a
    regular basis.  A discrimination suit was filed against the NFL, and in
    1978 Pete Rozelle decided that to resolve the suit, women would have to
    be allowed in the locker rooms.  Goodness about that decision - men and
    women members of the press corps were now treated identically.  Badness
    about that decision - the legitimate privacy needs of players were not
    considered.  What we need to do now is retain the goodness portion of
    that decision, while mitigating or eliminating the badness portion.
    
    Alison 

    This morning, I opened my newspaper "La Suisse", a Swiss newspaper read
    by about 300'000 French speaking Swiss people and lo and behold,
    somewhere towards the middle of the newspaper, HALF A PAGE (huge pages)
    was given to reporting the Lisa Olson vs. Patriots incident... 
    
    Frankly, it's not as if the national and international scenes were so
    bloody quiet newspapers have to fish for stories and I was very
    astonished to see this story being given so much space. 
    
    The reporting was very factual, and the newpaperman did not take any
    side or offer any conclusion/solution.
    
    Joana

    According to an article in the Washington Post National Weekly Edition,
    writen by Christine Brennan (Post football reporter and former
    President of the Association for Women in Sports Media) NFL policy is
    not as describe in earlier replies.
    
    There was a U.S. District Court decision in 1978 in favor of a S.I.
    reporter ruling that barring her from the Yankees' clubhouse was a 14th
    amendment violation.  Rozelle issued a NFL edict in 1985 ruling that
    clubs must provide _equal access_ to male and female reporters to
    locker rooms or other interview areas.  It DOES NOT require locker room
    access to any reporters; they can be closed to everybody.  The Dallas
    Cowboys, for example, have a closed locker room, and a separate
    interview area.  Prior to 1985, some clubs had allowed women locker
    room access (St. Louis Cardinals); some barred them, while admitting
    men (N.Y. Giants).  Baseball also uniformly provided equal access
    starting in 1985.  NBA and NHL teams started providing equal access "a
    few years earlier."
    
    There is also (I gather as a matter of practice, not official league
    policy) an initial period of about 10 minutes when no reporters are
    allowed in; modest players have already donned robes or the like before
    reporters enter.  She suggests that it is also possible for any player
    who wants to change and shower in sections of the locker room where
    reporters do not come, before coming back to the main section for
    interviews; she says that Wayne Gretsky, for example, does this.
    
    A particular problem with football, she says, is that the size of the
    teams (45 players, disregarding coaches) makes it often impractical to
    provide a large enough separate interview area.  The only major women's
    professional sports are tennis and golf; in these, only a few players
    finish at any one time, and interviews are generall conducted somewhere
    other than locker rooms, so equal access is generally not an issue.
    
    She makes clear that locker rooms are rather unpleasant environments
    for interviewing (for men or women), and suggests that almost all
    reporters would prefer another arrangement.  She also thinks that most
    players prefer locker room interviews (including with women reporters),
    since they want to get the process over as quickly as they can. She
    indicates that different teams have very different levels of acceptance
    of women reporters; the Redskins, for example, aceepted her presence
    (but not necessarily what she wrote!) without problem, while there have
    been quite a few instances of harassment less severe than the Olson
    incident with other teams and sports.  She says that she never
    encountered anything approaching it in some 500 locker room visits of
    her own.
    
    		- Bruce