Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I think there are a lot of habits that people observe that resolve
    around hygeine, germs and bodily secretions.  
    
    This belongs in the "True Confessions" note.  I have decided to do
    everything I can to recycle and to conserve natural resources.  
    
    I thought about washing my hands after using the toilet.  Instead
    of automatically going to the sink, I analyzed whether or not I had
    touched or had been splattered by urine.  In most cases I had not,
    so I decided I would not wash my hands when I left the stall.
    
    But alas, I still do it when someone else is in the room.  Because 
    Karen there are many people like you that evaluate and judge other
    peoples behaviors and habits and comment on them.  So I decided to
    humor the Karen's who are so concerned about a fluid that is natural
    and for all I know they have fungus growing in the refrigerator.
    
    This is all said in fun....but I ask you to look around, your home
    and your environment and determine if it is trully germ free.  For
    instance do you wash dishclothes with underwear and sheets.  That is
    a reall No-NO for me.

    please excuse the two misspellings in the last reply.....
    
    J

    
    i think it's funny that this topic has come up again.
    
    "germs" (whatever they are) are everywhere.  they're living in your
    mouth, up your nose, and they're under your fingernails, no matter
    how (short or how) often you wash your hands.  >sigh<  i used to have
    the dry, cracked, skin problem only in the winter, but it's starting
    already.  anyone know where i can get plain white cotton gloves?
    
    i just finished lunch, so it's time for me to go wash my hands.
    
    cq

    I'm sorry I brought up the sign!!!!!!!
    
    plain white cotton gloves -- I got my 2 pair from the Voice of the
    Mountains catalog, it comes from a general store in Vermont somewhere. 
    If you're interested I can post its address (assuming I can find it, I
    moved recently).

  Semi-Relevent humor:

  Two folks are leaving the restroom.  One says to the other and
  says in obvious disgust, "At Yale, they tought us to wash our
  hands after peeing."  To which the other replies, "Well, my
  friend, at Hahvahd, they tought us not to piss on our fingers!"

                                   Atlant

    See also:
    
    Womannotes-V2
    761 - Why are women slobs?  (from about reply .50 on or so)
    
    -Jody
    

    See the Splash note...
    

I wash my hands of this whole discussion.



Seriously though, the training we get at Children's Hosptial is that
you should wash your hands thoroughly after going to the bathroom,
touching other people, or eating in order to prevent the spread of
infectuous diseases.  I beleive there is a scientific basis for this.


When we work in clean rooms with kids that have had bone marrow
transplants, we must throw anything out of the room that hits the
floor and must rewash  if we touch ourselves above our necks.  Before
going it you have to scrub your hands and arms for ten minutes with a
bristly brush and this yellow-brown soap that surgeons use.

After receiving this training, I am more careful about keeping my
hands clean.  Better safe that sorry both for my health and more
importantly, other people I come into contact with I figure.

    You needn't  worry  about  the germs in urine. If your urine isn't
    essentially  sterile  you've  got  real  problems. It is however a
    great medium in which to grow lots of bacteria.

I said it in the last version, I'll say it again:

Urine is sterile.

Secondly, Karen...

>    I think that's a selfish and filthy habit.  That's my opinion.
>    I don't deserve personal attacks for having and expressing
>    this opinion.

You didn't just express and opinion, you expressed a judgement.  Of
people.  A personal judgement.  In effect, you have called everyone
who chooses not to have the same hygeine you have "selfish and
disgusting".  Of *course* people are going to respond negatively
if you say "I think you are selfish."

Why is it that some people think it is okay to go around insulting
people, and then say "I don't understand why you are so upset, I
was only expressing an opinion!  I have a right to my opinion, don't
I?"  Of course you have a right to your opinion.  Similarly I have
my right to get really pissed off at your opinion, don't I?  And
like you, I have the right to *express* my PO'dness if I am PO'd.

So what are you complaining about?

If I were to say "My opinion is that your personal hygiene habits are 
compulsive and anal-retentive" you would rightfully be offended, and you
would have every right to get upset and express it.

You see?

D!

    Please tread gently people.  There's no need for insults, or putdowns. 
    Everyone has an opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own opinion.
    
    -Jody
    

    Karen, I still don't see your reasoning.  Germs are on everything
    you touch.  They're unavoidable.  And it's not the fault of people
    who don't wash their hands when you do, it's *the environment*.

    Good hygiene would dictate that you should wash your hands *before*
    you touch anything that you put in your mouth (or the mouths of
    others).  Unless you know your hands have been dirtied by the activity,
    I see no reason to wash your hands *after* going to the bathroom
    because you're just going to go out and get them all germy again...

	Sharon

    Re: 419.12
    
    Are the strict sanitary practices at a hospital to prevent the spread
    of germs or the spread of lawsuits?  :-)
    
    Karen,
    
    It is your use of the words "SHAME ON YOU" in 13.391 that offend.  No
    one has anything to be ashamed of if they don't wash their hands after
    using the toilet.  Shaming is a common way that parents destroy self-
    esteem in children in an effort to control them.  Most of us who have
    had the weapon of shame used against us as children, really tend to get
    our hackles raised when someone tries to shame us.  I am happy to
    listen to anyone's opinions and preferences that are different from
    mine, but I do not like it when someone shames me for having an opinion
    or preference which is different from theirs.  I guess that's what
    valuing differences is all about.
    
    Mary

    Well, I *do* wash my hands after going to the bathroom.  I like doing
    it because it makes me *feel* that I am being cleaner than if I didn't
    which, in turn, makes me feel better about myself (and isn't that what
    it's really all about?) regardless of whether there is any scientific
    proof that it makes the world or me more germ-free.  It's the *idea* of
    washing my hands after going that I like.  
    
    I think it bores me to notice whethers other people wash their hands or
    not.  I don't care if other people do.  I only know that I do and that
    makes *me* feel cleaner.
    
    Besides, I have to do *some* of the things my mother told me to do.
    
    Lorna
    

    Besides, it says to (for employees) in most of the restrooms in the 
    fast food restaurants and I figure *they* must know!  Is it Papa
    Gino's that always has the signs up, in the Mama and Papa rooms?
    
    :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    I am going to get into this even though I shouldn't.  Once while in a
    stall a woman next to me had a bowel movement and changed her tampon. 
    She then left without washing her hands.  You will never convince me
    that she didn't really need to wash her hands.  I also worked with a
    woman who went to her doctor about an infection she had.  He indicated
    she had transfered her vaginal infection to her mouth.  He told her to
    wash her hands after she went to the bathroom and she wouldn't have
    that problem again.
    
    

    (my own opinion)
    
    
    I think that about 3/4 of the male/female who wash their hands in rest-
    rooms just do it cause they feel like everyone is watching them and you
    have to.  And I bet you that the ones that do wash them dont do it when
    they are at their own home.  
    
    
    --Nadine
    

    Re: .23
    
    >   Once while in a stall a woman next to me had a bowel movement and
    >   changed her tampon.  She then left without washing her hands.
    
    Why do people pay attention to what is going on in the stall next to
    them?
    
    -Mary

    And then why do they check to see if the person washes their hands?
    
    -Mary

    I can't believe I'm replying to this note. I wouldn't be if the
    system I do my work on were running.
    
    Although germs are everywhere, all bacteria are not everywhere.
    Some bacteria that is okay on one's hands is not okay in one's
    mouth and can cause serious infections. That is the reason for 
    the hand washing.
    
    Eileen

    When there are only two people in a public bathroom and it is very
    quiet in the room it is hard not to hear what is going on.  I am sure
    most people don't totally blank out what is going on around them.
    
      

    I can't believe I'm really jumping in here...
    
    Anyway, I'm a confirmed hand washer. (I keep a bottle of lotion
    in the women's room closest to my office to prevent chapping. It
    is never stolen.)
    
    What I can't figure out is: I always flush public toilets with
    my foot; why would anyone push the handle with their hand? 'Specially
    as its got all kinds of yucchy floor stuff on it?
    
       Margaret

    Re: -.1
    
    To clarify:
    
    I didn't ask why they *hear*. I asked why they pay attention to what
    they hear.  That is, why does it interest them?
    
    Mary

    Why are we even talking about this?
    
    Lisa

    That's .28 not -.1
    

    Some annecdotal  evidence  for  washing  your  hands:  During  the
    bubonic  plague,  Jews  seemed  much  less likely to catch bubonic
    plague  than  others,  and  many  people  now  think that this was
    because Jewish law requires Jews to wash their hands several times
    a day.

    Unfortunately, fewer  cases  of  bubonic  plague did not lead to a
    lower  mortality  rate,  as  Jews were killed as witches for being
    apparently imune to the plague.

--David

.24:

>He indicated
>    she had transfered her vaginal infection to her mouth.  He told her to
>    wash her hands after she went to the bathroom and she wouldn't have
>    that problem again.
    
Ahem.

Only if you assume that her only contact with vaginal fliuds was
through going to the bathroom.

I would hardly assume that.

D!

    Well, I have to say that I generally don't pay attention to whether or
    not anyone washes their hands after going to the toilet.  However, I
    have to say that it *really* bothers me when I use a restaurant toilet
    and find no soap in the bathroom, even when they have those signs about
    "all employees must wash hands per state law".  Those people are
    handling my *food*, for god's sake!  I bet the board of health puts
    those signs there for a good reason!
    
    For the record, I always at least rinse my hands, and if I find it
    necessary, I wash them.  But then I'm a nail-biter, so I feel I should. 
    Maybe I should use *not* washing my hands as a deterrent to
    nail-biting???  ;}
    
                                        

    re:.7
    
    	� Two folk are leaving the restroom.  One says to the
    	other and says in obvious disgust, "At Yale, they
    	tought us to wash our hands after peeing."  To which
    	the other replies, "Well, my friend, at Hahvahd, they
    	tought us not to piss on our fingers!" �
    
    To which the obvious next comment is:
    
    	"At Hahvahd, you *need* to be taught not to piss on
    	your fingers."
    
    --- jerry

    I'm another one in the always-wash-afterward crowd.   I too was taught
    to do it that way by my mum, and like Lorna am too old for kneejerk
    adolescent rebellion.
    
    Besides, it seems to work (except for my current case of the plague,
    which, unusually for me, appears to have taken up a long-term lease :-(
    
    						=maggie

    Okay, the other piece of logic I have used....in my decision to
    conserve water and save my skin.
    
    There are things that many folks enjoy and do in the name of love that
    are in the same line of washing hands after using the toilet.  
    
    Now it seems to me that this is a common practice...and it doesn't seem
    that these folks are any sicklier then myself.
    
    And I have been waiting to fall in love for a looooooooong time!  ;-)

    
    I'm knew to this note file, and after reading this particular
    note, I have a question, first of all, I allways at least rinse
    my hands off in a public restroom and I dont have a problem with
    people that dont wash there hands, its there buisiness but I 
    do have a problem with people leaving urine on the seats. Personally,
    I am not coordinated enough to balance myself above the toilet,but
    boy it sure is discusting to forget and sit right down and feel
    something wet. Not only does it make me want to wash my hands,
    It makes me want a shower also.
    Its just my thought.
    
    thanks,
    sue
    

    	Well, one thing I've definitely learned from this discussion:
    	The dedication to washing hands in the bathroom is not nearly
    	as important as washing right before eating or handling food
    	(just as those of us who wear contacts must wash our hands
    	right before sticking our fingers in our eyes.)  ;^)

    	Washing multiple times between activities and eating might be
    	overkill - so I guess it boils down to a personal preference.

    	To me, it just feels good to run water and soap on the hands
    	a number of times during the day.  Personal preference, again.

    in .33 Witt mentions bubonic plague in ref to this silly string (I
    can't believe I read the whole thing!).
    
    I had thought that plague transmission has nothing to do with hand
    washing (or the lack of it).  It is carried by fleas and transmitted by
    flea bites.  Rats and humans and humans' domestic animals carried
    plague from place to place.  It's true Jews contracted plague less
    often, maybe we don't taste good to fleas!

    in re .41
    
    Jewish people may have been generally personally cleaner, than
    Christians of the time. I recall that there was a mind set that
    discouraged washing among many Christians. Not bathing or changing
    ones clothes would certainly make people more susceptable to fleas.
    
    Bonnie

    
    Once when I had to leave a urine specimen, the instructions said to
    start by "washing the external area"; but by the time I'd got that darn
    room clean, everyone had gone home...    ;-)
    
    D.

    Anyone ever thought of what happens to your nice clean hands when you
    turn the tap off?
    Or when you dry your hands with the, sometimes, present towel?
    
    Charles

    re: .35
    
    I found living in New York--riding the subway in particular--to be an 
    effective deterrent to nail biting.  In fact, I didn't put my hands 
    anywhere near my face if I could help it.  On the other hand, I'm
    infinitely less squeamish about my own bodily functions.
    
    Nancy ;-)  

    In regard to .39 and messy toilet seats, I don't know if I've ever
    input this in =wn= (and I don't know where it comes from):
    
    To the tune, "If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands:
    
    	If you sprinkle when you tinkle,
    		wipe the seat
    	If you sprinkle when you tinkle,
    		wipe the seat.
    	If you're messy when you pee,
    	Please do one thing for me:
    	
    	If you sprinkle when you tinkle,
    		wipe the seat!
    
    Briana

	Count me with the compulsive hand washers, but then I too, chew
on my fingers.  I was 'em at home, and I wash 'em when I'm out.

	I also notice when folks don't.  Perhaps we "noticers" are just more
aware of what goes on around us...

						--D

   I read a survey one time about how many people wash their hands in
   bathrooms. The survey was done by monitoring the sink area of a bathroom
   (with a camera? I don't remember.) What was interesting was that only 40%
   of the people washed their hands - unless there was someone else in the
   bathroom, in which case the percentage jumped to 80%. I don't remember if
   this is men and women, men, or women, but it amused me at the time...

   As long as we're discussing personal hygiene, I'd like to know if we could
   widen the topic, and maybe treat it as "lite"?

   How many people do/don't shower daily? Do/don't wash their hair daily?

   I don't. Either of them. I also don't always wash my hands after using the
   bathroom. But I always wash my hands before cooking, after handling raw
   meat, especially chicken (salmonella), before putting in my contact lenses,
   and just before doing my going to be ritual (taking out contact lenses,
   flossing and brushing). Hey! How many people floss their teeth daily? I do!
   Even when backpacking. How many of the people who always wash their hands
   backpack? How many still wash their hands when backpacking? It seems pretty
   impractical to me, but I'm in the "doesn't wash" group so I'm not really
   qualified to say.

   Needless to say, it doesn't bother me when I see people washing their hands
   too often, it's unhealthy but none of my business. :-)

	-- Charles

    To lend another tangent to this discussion - How many feel the bathroom
    sinks in public restrooms are just too gross to wash your hands at, so
    you just skip it?  I do.  Sometimes I feel I'm at risk of picking up
    some disease by touching the fhandles and faucets, and the soap
    dispenser and paper towels, and wuld rather risk my own germs than
    those of some stranger!
    

    Eeeewww, I can't bear to go without showering.  Sometimes, everyone
    once in a LONG LONG while, I'll will skip a shower (like, for instance,
    when we lost hot water about a month ago) and all day I feel like there
    are little critters crawling all over me.
    
    This is strange because I didn't use to have this compulsion.  I
    remember in some class in high school discussing cultural differences,
    and discussing how the Europeans think the American compulsion with
    hygiene was excessive.  I felt "Ah, I don't have that compulsion...I
    shower when I need it..."  But while in college, I got used to the
    morning shower, and am now thorougly immersed in that particular
    western standard.  In fact, it's one of the reasons I don't like
    camping, cuz I can't shower in the morning.
    
    But then, all health issues aside, I need my morning shower like some
    people need coffee - to wake up!
    
    D!

    in re .48
    
    Well I'm uncomfortable if I don't shower in the morning. I think like
    D! it helps me wake up. Also since I'm apt to wake up all sweaty at
    night :-P! I feel sticky and uncomfortable until  I shower. Also my
    hair won't curl well if it isn't freshly clean. ;-)
    
    Bonnie

    	When I went to a dermatologist a couple years back, I was told
    my skin would be better if I *didn't* shower every day...I have
    very dry skin, and showering actually makes it drier!  (Same for
    my hair, actually, though now I've been told that with the right
    shampoo it's not as big a deal.)

    	Unless you've really worked up a sweat, or been doing
    something that gets you dirty, you really don't *need* to shower
    every day.  The guy said that most people shower far more often
    than they need to and it can actually be bad for your skin.

    	amy

    >The guy said that most people shower far more often
    >    than they need to and it can actually be bad for your skin.
    
    Bad for your skin but good for your soul.  When it comes down to it,
    the real reason I take a shower (at least) every day is because it
    *feels* good.  What other time of the day do I get to take 15 minutes
    to participate in an activity which is 100% pleasureable, requires no
    thinking, no excersize, no human interaction (although it can be nice
    :-), no obligations or deadlines, no pressure - and justify it by
    saying it's health related!  :-)
    
    The more tense I am, or the more I have going on in my life, the more I
    enjoy showers (and the more frequently I take them.)
    
    Yours for guilt-free pleasure,
    D!

    There are a couple of ways to cut down on the dry skin problem
    if you like to shower daily. One is not to dry yourself, or only
    to pat dry not rub dry. Another is to use moisturizing soaps
    or bath gels instead of soap. Patting down (according to my doctor
    who councled my son on dry skin) allows the skin to retain some
    of the moisture from the shower.
    
    Another ineresting thing is that it is better *not* to wash infants
    and tolders every night. If their faces, hands and diaper areas are kept
    clean, they are better off with biweekly or weekly baths. Yet a lot
    of people would be agast at a mother or father that didn't bathe
    their small child every night.
    
    Bonnie

    Unfortunaly,  a certain 4 year old boy I know gets rather "ripe" after
    a hard day at preschool  :-)
    
    
    Sand in the hair, grungies around the neck and inside the elbows,
    sweaty feet, the whole works!  

    Sue,
    
    so wash when needed!
    
    that's what I did :-)
    
    Bonnie

    G'day,
    
     One can always recognise an Engineer....
    
    
    They was their hands *before* going to the loo.....
    
    
    
    So there you are - you washed your hands, dried them carefully in the
    air with the warm air dryer. All wholesome and then you get hold of the
    door handle... which was last opened by someone who didn't....
    
    I guess it's a matter of taste......    
    
    
    derek
    

    Well I am going back to washing my hands...after reading D!'s note
    about the shower and other notes stating that it is not necessary to
    shower every day...I realized I will never give up the shower...so my
    small gesture in the restroom was somewhat insignificant.
    
    I will carry my tote bag grocery shopping and I will drip dry my hands
    in the ladies room...I will use biodegradable soap.  
    
    sigh
    
    

    
    How do you American people view bathing?
    
    As in "soaking in the bath"?
    
    You seem to be very keen on showers as opposed to us Europeans who
    bath quite a lot....
    
    'gail
    (who isn't sure if "English" counts as "European", but since we joined
     the European Monetary System today, I guess so..........)
    

>    (who isn't sure if "English" counts as "European", but since we joined
>     the European Monetary System today, I guess so..........)
    
    In this respect, no, it doesn't, 'gail. :-) My pet peeve when over in
    England is that you hardly can find a decent shower because everyone
    has baths in the house - and then when you *do* find one, it's usually
    an electrical one, with a bunch of electrical equipment hanging  right
    next to you while you're soaking wet. :-} Can you imagine an electronic
    engineer coming from a country where natural gas is the most common way
    to heat things in such a shower? ;-)
    
    Ad

    'gail
    
    It may be that Americans don't like baths because our tubs aren't
    deep enough. The main thing that I dislike about a bath is that only
    half of me is covered by water and the top half gets cold. A friend
    of mine recounted taking a bath in ireland where he (as a 6' tall man)
    was completely covered in a large tub and he really loved it.
    
    However, I don't feel clean after a bath, I always feel I have to
    shower to get of the floating soap and dirt etc.
    
    Yet baths were how people got clean for thousands of years.
    
    Bonnie

    I like baths to relax, particularly when I'm sick or have the chills,
    but having a shower in the morning is my equivalent of a cup of coffee
    (as well as helping me feel human again clean-wise)....it's my
    wake-up....
    
    -Jody
    

    
    If I insisted on a shower every day, I wouldn't have done a lot of
    the most exciting things I've done!  I know people who would rather
    *die* than not take a shower one day (at least that's how I've heard
    them talk).
    
    I wouldn't have been able to bicycle out west for 3 months on under
    $1000 (1985).  I wouldn't have done the backpacking and mountaineering
    I've done.  Plus, I'd still like to travel in exotic parts of the
    world, and it ain't easy to take a shower in Thailand, Kenya, Nepal,
    etc. every day (at least not the way *I* would want to travel there).
    

    For the record :-), I take a shower and wash my hair every morning, and
    really have no desire to travel to such remote parts of the world where
    it isn't possible.  However, although, I brush my teeth two or three
    times a day, I hardly ever floss.  It just seems like too much of a
    bother, and that's where I draw the line.  Besides, my dentist would
    have nothing to scold me for if I flossed every day, and I know he
    enjoys telling me horror stories of about receding gums, and how it
    will eventually ruin my life.
    
    Lorna
    

    trying having gum grafts!  You might change your mind!  []*8
    
     E G

    re .68, Well, E Grace, I had actually hoped I wouldn't have to ever
    have gum grafts.  I'm sure it is unpleasant.  Have you had to have
    them?   I think it would be quite unusual for anyone to be under the
    impression that having a gum graft would be a pleasurable physical
    sensation.  I was just making fun of the way my dentist scolds people. 
    It's rather comical.  
    
    Lorna
    

    
I'll own that I did come across a bit strong, and appologize for 
any hurt feelings.  Mary, I agree with you about the use of
shame, and that was me going off the deep end a little.  Sorry
about that.  I didn't make any personal attacks, though.  I was
attacking a behaviour, not any particular person, and don't think 
I deserved a bunch of people making snide remarks, speculating 
on my psychological makeup, commenting on my character, and 
generalizing about "people like me."  It felt like a mob scene.  
I was half expecting to be gunned down when I walked out of the 
office Friday.  

I'm glad things seem to have cooled down since Friday.  The reason
I even brought the subject up is that someone else mentioned 
bathroom etequitte, or something, and it reminded me.  I guess
my fire was fueled a little by a recent incident, and I was in
rampage mode.  

I was in the cafe one morning, standing at the grill, when someone
reached in front of me and picked up a muffin, turned it over in 
his hand, decided it wasn't THE ONE he wanted and put it back.
He fingered a second one, and then settled on a third.  I dunno,
my first, reactionary, impression was that the guy was an
inconsiderate slob.  I have a problem with the picture of an
adult putting his/her hands all over public food.  

There was another time while standing in line to get a piece of
bread, the woman in front me put her hands on a few rolls before 
deciding on one.  I had a hard time believing what my eye were seeing.  

I was mildly thunderstruck (;-) ) at the time.  Especially at the
thought that the food maulers (or paw-ers) might have just been
to the bathroom and might not believe in washing their hands. 

Okay, I am now also washing my hands of this topic.  

kb

	I dislike showers. I love baths. The two problems I always had with
	baths is tubs (at least in the US) are too small and the water gets
	cold too soon. The answer was obvious. We bought a hot tub. It says
	is seats 4 but I can spread out and take up a lot of it. :-) It also
	stays nice and hot so I can sit in it and read without getting a chill.

	Interestingly enough I take more showers since we got it. The shower
	is to get clean and is taken quickly. Hot soaks can now be taken 
	without feeling quilty about a line of people waiting mearly to get
	clean. Life is much better now.

				Alfred

    RE:  A reply way back, yes, germs are everywhere.  I was in LA about
    three weeks ago, and not washing up after I went to the bathroom
    was the least of my worries.  Just walking outside and thinking
    about all of the grime that I was taking in with every breath was.
    
    Off the subject a bit, it always seems to gross people out when
    I eat off the same fork that I let my German Sheppard take a bite
    off of, or when I let him kiss me or my son right on the mouth (mind
    you, if I catch him cleaning his "you know what" before I don't
    let him kiss us).  But for me, I never worry about germs from him.
    
    Kel
    

    
    Germs don't concern me.  There are more important things in
    this world I choose to devote my concern and energy to than 
    whether I, or other women, have the time or inclination to 
    wash after a visit to the ladies room.
    
    Like others, a shower is invigorating and refreshing to me,
    and the only way I ever feel clean (baths remind me too much
    of femme soup).  Even if I look OK, I never _feel_ OK unless
    I have stood beneath a long, hot shower.
    
    Sometimes when Elliott (my puppy) is being relentless in his 
    attempts to get at my mouth (he doesn't know food is also on 
    the plate, he just knows it's in my mouth) I'll just open my 
    mouth and let him eat right out of it.  He also "cleans" my
    face every morning and licks milk mustaches off me.
    
    Carla
    

    re kissing animals, I always kiss my cats on the mouth, and my daughter
    and I have a running joke about the fact that she won't.  I say,
    "Melissa, kiss the kitties on the mouth, not the head, they like it
    better." and she says, "Yuck! No way.  You're disgusting.  You kiss
    cats!"  This converstion has been going on since she was about 3 or 4.
    
    My Siamese cat, Jade, whom I've had for 12 1/2 yrs, licks me right back
    on the mouth.  I don't worry about germs from animals.
    
    My ex-mother-in-law's spring spaniel used to kiss me on the mouth, too. 
    When I'd say, "Kippy, kiss me!"  she'd jump us and lick my mouth.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .75 Lorna, I gotta side with your daughter. Kissing animals -
    blech!

    On this note, my buddy's dog used to lick my face, which I didn't
    care for. The cure ? Before I went over I spread Muskol insect
    repellant all over my face. (The stuff tastes truly horrible if
    it accidentally gets in your mouth.) Dog run over, jumped up,
    licked my face. The look on that dog's face was comical. Ever
    see a dog try to spit ? :-) Now the dog doesn't 'kiss' me :-)

	Once again, it's time to remind everyone that you're in more 
danger of catching "nasties" from kissing a human than kissing a dog or cat.

	I don't like Doggie kisses, (on the mouth) not because of germs but 
because they are too slimy (in my opinion of course).

	I don't like Kitty kisses on the mouth becuase their rough tongues have 
a tendency to rip my lips off. :-)

	In general, the only time I've ever worried about germs from my 
7 kitties is when I was pregnant.  Since toxoplasmosis (tranmitted from feline
feces) can cause birth defects, I made Gary change the litter boxes the whole 9
months.  (Just about the only thing I enjoyed about being pregnant! :-) ) 

Tracey

    
    RE last couple
    
    Utterly agree with you.
    Animals ---> mouth....
    YUCH YUCH YEECH PHUTHTTT....uurgh YUCKY!
    
    'gail
    

    
    re:.75
    you never told me that!!
    

    re .80, heh-heh-heh
    
    
    Lorna
    

    
    To all of you who are grossed out by animal slobber:
    
    Is it any worse than baby slobber?
    

    
    Re -1
    I haven't had experience of baby-slobber, but I do find the idea just
    as off-turning...
    It's nothing to do with germs and stuff.....it's just that the idea is
    really off-turning to me, and I prefer my oral contact with whatever to
    be on-turning :-P
                            
    'gail
    
    

    RE:  baby_slobber vs. animal_slobber ...
    
    Babies don't lick their b*tts ... animals do - think about that next
    time ya swap body fluids with that family pet ... 8^p
    
    Jerry ..... 8^)

    re slobber, I know that some dogs slobber, BUT *my* cats don't slobber
    and neither did my baby!  So, there!  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Actually I love being licked by my cats, except directly on the mouth.
    For your cat to decide to groom you is an indication of trust and
    love on the cat's part.
    
    (Then there was the cat that used to bite my chin every time I sang!
    I think that was meant as a criticque not an expression of affection).
    
    Bonnie

    
    Lorna,
    
    >BUT *my* cats don't slobber
    >and neither did my baby!  So, there!  :-)
    
    This belongs in the "false confessions" note (the part about your baby
    anyway).
    
    
    

    Ellen, no I can understand your reluctance to believe me but she really
    didn't slobber as a baby.  :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    re .88 Never slobbered and doesn't kiss cats. Quite a daughter,
    Lorna. :-)

    	I also have a slobber-free daughter.  And, no, Jerry, she doesn't
    lick her butt, but she *does* chew on her toes. 
    
    	I also like cat licks anywhere that isn't too sensative for the
    rough tongue.  It makes me fel like I've been made an honorary cat. :-)
    (This is a complement in my mind.) 
    
    Tracey
     

    
    	Well, my baby slobbered - but, contrary to the title of the 
    	basenote, I didn't hate it.
    
    	We were standing in the lobby of a youth hostel in Austria once
    	(when Ryan was 9 months old or so) - and he leaned over to smile
    	at two young guys who walked up.  Ryan's smile let out a teeny
    	drool that dropped all the way to the floor.  (He was teething.)
    
    	One of the guys looked at Ryan and remarked, "He looked at us and
    	just sort of...drooled."  
    
    	I didn't mind the drooling during teething.  (At least he wasn't
    	fussy during those times.)

    Lorna,
    
    I believe you because I had a nonslobbering baby also.  Unfortunately I
    also had one that did slobber.
    
    +pat+

    I had to dig fragments of chicken bones out of my dog's mouth this
    afternoon (thx to the slob who dumped 'em on the playground).
    
    Dog slobber is worse (today -- Ellen my kids don't slobber *anymore*!)
    
    sara

    
    Well, since someone mentioned cat's tongues, I have to tell what
    happened to me several years ago.  I was living with my sister and 
    she had some cats: a big yellow tiger, and three Siamese.  One of 
    the Siamese, named Softy, for the consistency of his brain, was a 
    very affectionate cat.  This cat seemed to have no sense  -- he 
    would sit and stare at a wall, motionless for long spells; sometimes 
    he would walk out to the middle of the road and sit there -- but he 
    was a lovey, lovey cat (and lucky -- he lived to a very old age).  
    
    Anyway, I was sleeping on my sister's couch at this time, and one 
    night I woke up because I could feel Softy licking my forhead.  Now, 
    I am a pretty solid sleeper and it took me a while to wake up.  I 
    remember first thinking 'Oh isn't that nice, he's licking me,' because 
    I like the feel of a cat's tongue, too, but then I realised that it 
    hurt, so I pushed him away several times until I fell asleep again.
    
    In the morning I got up as usual and went into the bathroom for my
    morning shower.  Turned on the water and got it to the right temp and
    stuck my face under.  Ouch!  Stung a little, on my forhead.  Hmmm.
    Weird.  Woke up as I washed, got out ad dried myself and peered into
    the mirror to see why my forhead stung.  The cat had licked (and licked 
    and Licked and LICKED, evidently) a raw patch between my eyebrows.  I 
    had fun explaining it to my co-workers.  And after about a week, a nice
    scab formed.
    
    I still liked Softy anyway; he used to give love bites.
    
    CQ

    
    My dog gives kisses and licks...at one time, I was concerned, but,
    upon asking my local vet about germs in animals mouths, I was 
    informed that they have built-in antibiotics in their saliva, which
    kills germs instantly.  The babies receive these antibiotics through
    the mothers milk.
    
    I have no fears about my dogs mouth being safer than a humans.  What's
    worse than a dog bite.....a human bite....
    

    I suppose this should go in the rathole, but the story of Softy
    reminded me of story about my father.  When my brother was a baby my
    parents had a toy for the highchair, one with a suction cup on the
    bottom.  Well, my father stuck it on his forehead to play with the
    baby.  When he finished there was this beautiful, perfectly round black
    and blue mark on his forehead.  He tried to keep his head covered the
    next day at work, but everybody found out anyway.
    
    Several years later, his new partner, who'd just had a baby, came walking 
    in with a beautiful, perfectly round black and blue mark on his forehead
    from doing the exact same thing.
    
    Janet

    	Janet,
    
    	That is too funny.
    
    	I can picture myself doing that. Of course, when it comes to
    	babies, I might do anything.
    
    	Scott