Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Janet,
    
    I am so sorry; I know that love for an ex never completely fades.
    
    I have *some* experience with being your son's age and losing 
    someone all-important.  Nine days before my 4th birthday, my sister
    died.  She had been ill with cancer in her brain for at least 2 
    years, and had spent most of her illness at home with the family, so
    I am sure I was prepared long before her actual death, but I would 
    still be more than happy to "talk" with you via e-mail, or phone, if
    you would like.
    
    My e-mail address is above, my dtn is 297-5241.
    
    Please, please, remember your own sorrow in this, and not only your
    son's.
    
    E Grace

    My mother died when I was ten, my youngest brother was 4 at the
    time. I don't think my brother is over it yet (he's 31). I only
    got over it really a few years ago. The problem is that we never
    really had a good grieving period. My father put on a brave front
    (he's only recently over it BTW) and we all thought we had to as
    well.

    How to teach grieving? Let the child see other people grieve. Let them
    know that crying and missing the departed is normal and healthy. If
    possible let them share their grief with others who loved the person.

    A counselor is probably a very good idea. Dealing with death is never
    easy but being young and having already gone through major life
    changes (parents divorce and re marriage) complicates things even more.
    I wish my father had seen one and that I and my brothers and sister had
    as well. It might have made life a lot easier for us all.

    			Alfred

    
    My husband died suddenly 2 years ago, our children were 20 and 6 at the
    time.  It was/is very hard and we all saw counsellors.  The school my
    daughter goes to has a resident counsellor and she makes a point of
    talking to her every once in a while and reports back to me.  We are
    all adjusting pretty well, birthdays and holidays are still hard. 
    
    Send mail if you'd like to talk further.  
    
    Take care and take one day at a time,
    
    Dianne

    The only pointers I seem to find are:
    
    Womannotes-V2
    377 - dealingwith death
    
    Human_relations
    323 - deal with death?
    
    -Jody
    

    I too am sorry for what you have to go through.  I haven't a lot of 
    experience with this sort of thing, except to say that it is good
    to be honest with your son about his father's chances.  When my aunt
    died of cancer, some of my cousins hadn't even been told about her
    illness.  Even though we'd known about her cancer for years, these
    children were told she just had a cold.  The shock and disillusion-
    ment of the kids when my aunt died were worse than the grief itself.
    They felt that they couldn't trust their parents.  
    
    A counselor is good.  Honesty and being there for your son are good.
    
    I wish you well, and have faith in yourself.  You seem to be handling
    this very well, with grace and honesty.
    
    Hang in there,
    Karen.

    My ex-husband is in a coma. It will be at least two days before
    they will be able to do the brain-wave scan to determine how much 
    brain damage exists.
    
    He left letters for my son. I was trying to deal with the idea 
    of teaching the concept of death and what it means and I was hoping to
    avoid trying to teach him that some people can be so sad and feel 
    like noone cares about them that they chose to end it themselves.
    
    I am currently debating about wheather or not to set these letters
    aside for now and save them for when I feel he is ready to understand
    and be told about how his father chose to die. If I delay telling him
    about the method of death I will have to keep him away from his 
    step-brothers(sons of my ex's current wife) because neither of them 
    will keep thier mouths shut about this no matter how much we try to
    explain that now is not the time for a 4yr old to learn about this.
    
    I have explained that his dad is very very sick and then I explained
    that he is even sicker that Steve(my husband) was when he was in the
    hospital for a bleeding ulser. I have told him that grandma is very
    very sad and worried, so am I, WE dont think he will get well. So
    far that is as far as I have taken the info.
    
    Today he will be emotionally assessed because I feel he does not 
    use the coping skills that he has been taught to express his emotions
    and I am affaid that he is already showing signs of the up and down
    mood swings that his father had. If his is showing signs of being
    depressed he will be recomended to a child psycologist. 
    
    My older daughter who was fond of my ex-husband is being counseled at
    school right now. At a later date I plan to have discussions as a
    family.
    
    Thank you for the kind thoughts and the wealth of your experiances. It
    reenforses some of the instictive thoughts I have about eventually
    giving the whole truth so that they dont feel like I have lied to them.
    
    I just want to give the info a bit at a time.
    
    Lets be honest I dont WANT to give them any more info. I want to crawl
    in a hole and read a book and pretend I am someone else somewhere else.
    
    I'll do it anyway though and later I will make the time  for that hole.
    Did I mention that My In-Laws are coming out in 1 1/2 weeks.?
    I keep that thought in the back of my mind and If I'm ready then Great.
    If the house is not ready-I can always console myself that they have
    come to visit my husband when he was single and had to make space
    in the rooms to sleep(boxes of stuff spead across the floors of three
    bedrooms). So they have seen worse.
    I must remember humour.
    
    Janet

    re .6 Janet, you might want to tell your son something like,
    "Daddy felt very bad, so he took too much medicine and it
    made him worse" or something similar. He probably doesn't
    understand 'substance abuse' or 'suicide' but this will
    make sense to him, I think. Don't lie, just give him enough of 
    the truth to satisfy his natural curiosity.
    
    good luck

    Janet,
    
    I just went through this experience with my nephew...you see, my
    brother-in-law died suddenly of a heart attack and left my sister and
    my nephew (who is 6) without him.  Now, you should know that my sister,
    who I love very much, is not the best person to deal with any sort of
    upheavel....needless to say, this was the biggest upheavel of them all.
    
    Anyway, my other sister and I went to Stephen's school to discuss with
    the counselors how to deal with telling a 6 year old that his dad isn't
    coming back...mind you, I'm 32, and I can't explain death, so how am I
    supposed to explain it to a 6 year old. The counselor told us the
    following:
    
    1) Stephen MUST be given the chance to say goodbye...otherwise he will
    always be looking for dad to come home.
    
    2) He will not deal with his grief in the "normal" way....he will
    instead  act up, act out, be generally miserable acting.
    
    3) He should/wasn't allowed to the funeral home, or the cemetary...at
    least not during the actual service.  My sister and I took him two
    weeks later when the headstone was put up.
    
    
    These are all very fresh in my mind, and the hurt of loosing Ralph is
    still there...it doesn't go away, it DOES lessen with time.
    
    As far as the letters go, I would hold on to them until your son is old
    enough to understand.  My father left my mom when I was 4 years old,
    and he had written me letters that I never saw until I was 16...then I
    appreciated what he had to say.  My mother wasn't trying to "KEEP"
    anything from me, she was just trying to figure out when the right time
    was to explain.
    
    If you need to talk, need a shoulder, please call....DTN: 352-2907.
    
    And, above all else, keep a clear head, and an open heart...you
    obviously love your children very much, and with love like that, you
    can't do wrong!
    
    Jill
    

    
    	Janet,
    
    	I recently went through a similiar experience. My brother who
    was only 41 and perfect health died suddenly of a heart attack 2 weeks
    ago leaving a wife a 2 teenagers. Trying to explain death when there is
    no reasonable explanation is almost impossible. Just do your best, my
    thoughts are with you. If you need to talk feel free to call me at
    7-2485.
    
    george

    I thank you all for sharing your experiances. I appriciate all of your
    replys and offers to let me bend you ear.
    
    I have not had time to do much more than the basic essentials. Devins
    father died last thursday morning. After doing the first EEG the
    results detirmined that the only brain wave activity that was being
    picked up was that caused by the resperator and heart machine. SO
    his wife decided to take him off the machine and let him rest in peace.
    
    Thursday I waited for Steve and we went and got Devin out of Daycare.
    We took him to a park and sat with him and told him that his father
    had died that morning. He then asked if he could go play. 
    
    Well I dont know if it is denial or just the way four year olds
    handle things or maybe its just how this four year old wants to handle
    this for a while. So rutines are being stuck to and we attented the
    Memorial Service for his father on Saterday. He had a lot to live
    for and his creative contributions to our community were numerous.
    He was a founding member of a Theater group that does performances
    for the local schools. He helped write the nine scripts being performed
    by the current group of actors. These scripts deal with topics like
    self essteem, drug/alcohal abuse, grief-loss ect.
    
    He created many large caratures of animals for the Health Department 
    that are displayed where children can enjoy them. 
    
    by the time the service was over I felt that he must have been a fool
    or very sick not to realise that the people around him really liked 
    his contributions to the world he was a part of.
    
    I was holding my oldest daughter during the servise as she started 
    crying before we got to the church for the servise and kept crying
    through it. Steve held Devin and when I finally felt Angela had a 
    handle on things I looked over at Dev and he was asleep. 
    
    I explained before hand what the servise was for and why we were going
    and that lots of people would be sad(his brother was almost 
    uncontrolably sobbing, his father and two of his brothers had
    taken thier own lives and he is back and forth, in and out of
    additctions).
    
    The posibility that the depression is genetic has been sitting in
    the back of my mind. I am attempting to do more searching about
    manic/depresion and the posibility of it being genetic and what can
    be done about it.
    
    I am so sad he is gone and so very angry that he is not here  to take
    care of Devin too. I have cried and felt sad for his loss, my loss and
    my familys loss. I really dont care how much he gave to the community
    maybe I am calaused. I care about my son and his well being and I feel
    that has been jepordised. My husband has always treated my children
    like they were his. We had even planed to adopt Devin as his father 
    would not see him at one time in the past. His father changed his mind
    when I finally had the money to go through with it. So I encouraged the 
    bonding tha eventually formed and I feel quilty about that too.
    
    I know these are legitimate feelings when dealing with grief. I hope
    that saying and acknowleging them will help me get over it faster.
    Yep am and angry enough to relize I dont want my life changed much
    by this inconviniant death. I can sometimes relise that I wont miss him 
    much  and right now even though I know his contributiions are many and
    I have him to thank for my son, I wish he were here and I could beat
    him up myself. How useless and stupid! 
    
    Well I have rambled on and thats about the state of my brain these
    days. I ramble here and there and do a little of this and a little of
    that. I  have cut my activities outside the home in half and have
    taken steps to put the oldest two kids into counseling to help them 
    with dealing with thier feelings. Soon I will be back in counseling
    too. 
    
    The kids got the flu over the weekend and Sunday I sat in the rocker or
    layed on the couch holding one or the other or both of my younger
    children(the oldest was at a Birthday Party for her  friend).
    The two youngest are boys and they would bring a car or two and a
    blanket and climb up on me and snuggle up. This was very comforting
    physically and the two year old has not percieved anything eccept that 
    sis and mom are sensitive and more likly to be receptive to cuddling
    and he sure likes to cuddle. I still cant understand what he is saying
    but he can talk my ear off.
    
    Well I have rambled off long enough.
    
    Again thanks for the messages of concern and all the advise. I have
    found that even with the advise I have had to play to much off the
    cuff. I expected questions from Devin about his father and all we got 
    was a "Can I go play now?".
    
    I am reweaving my rope. I was hanging by a thread and now I think I 
    have a better grip of reality.
    janet

    Janet, 
    
    I'm sorry to read all that you have gone through, and I want to
    thank you and the other people who have responded to this note for the
    honesty of their feelings.
    
    This is a really hard topic, and it brought up a great many feelings
    for me.
    
    My father died when I was 10.  I was not allowed to go to the funeral.
    I never saw my mother cry (although I did see others grieve), and we
    never talked about what happen (he died very suddenly). I know that my
    mother was devastated by his death, but for some reason she felt that
    she had to "be strong" and not show any emotion.  It didn't help me as
    a 10 year old who was scared, confused, grief stricken, and angry that
    my father was gone. People treated me differently, but no one would
    talk to me about how I felt.
        
    When I was 16 my mother was diagnosed with breast cancer, and within
    five years she too died.  During the time between her dianosis and the
    time she died, my family never talked about our feelings, our
    fears...we just tried to pretend that everything was fine. The ONLY
    person who talked honestly to me was an older great-cousin, who is a
    doctor and very blunt about illness.  I hated him at the time for being
    so blunt, but after a while I realized that what he said to me was a
    gift, and that he treated me as someone who could handle the
    information that he had. 
    
    It's taken me a long time to work through my feelings about the deaths
    of my parents, and even at late thirty-something, it's still hard to
    deal with.  I find that I still have a great deal of anger at the
    people in my family who conspired to protect me, and in the end
    isolated me and discounted my feelings. 
    
    From my own experiences with death at a relatively early age, I feel
    *very strongly* that children should get *some* information about death
    -- regardless of their age.  It should be appropriate for their age,
    but they should have the information, and know that it's ok to ask
    questions, feel sad, feel angry without feeling guilty, etc. I suspect
    that there are some good books out for children now...I don't think
    there was much out when I was young. 
    
    Janet, I think the best thing you did was get counseling for your
    kids, and get support from the community for yourself.  Talking
    about it, facing it directly, and working it through at the time,
    and over time is the best way to deal with grief, or any strong
    emotion.
    
    Good luck!
    
    ****andrea****

    
    

    Janet,
    
    I want to mention something in reference to your 4-year-old's
    reaction. Both of my parents died within the last two years,
    and my mother had been living with my sister, who has a 
    4-year-old. Although my nephew was told about both deaths,
    he didn't react strongly at first. Then about 3 months after
    my mother's death (last of the two deaths), he began waking up
    terrified and crying at night. One night he said to my sister
    "I wish Mam and Mick would come back." She consoled him by
    saying he would see them in the afterlife, as she had done
    before. After that, he didn't have the night terrors again.
    
    So your child may react later even if he has no reaction now.
    
    Best wishes in surviving this. You will, but it's not easy.
    
    Eileen 

    Sometimes it's  easier  than  you expect. My father was telling us
    about trying to tell me that our goldfish had died (I was in third
    grade).  He  tried  to  explain about death, and didn't think he'd
    done a good job. At this point I said "Oh, yeah, You know who else
    died  today? our teacher." He didn't beleive me, but it turned out
    to  be  true.  Did  I understand about death? I don't know, but my
    father found it easier to explain than he had expected.

--David

    I think the little fellows ears are on scanner or something. He has
    been making statements at the strangest times. We will be talking
    to people and in the middle of a conversation say  "My dad's dead"
    or "My daddy is up there" Pointing up. Of course the people will
    offer condolences and wait just a while to see what else he wants
    to say about it and then try to pick up the conversation where it left
    off.
    
    I dont know what is better. Well he and his younger brother are 
    both sick with a virus(cold) and I have them on herbs and I will
    have Devin in 'Play Therapy' for a while. When he is seven or eight
    it has been suggested to have his litium(sp) levels tested.
    
    My inlaws are in town and I am glad they are here. They are one more
    experianced set of parents(they raised 7 children) to have around when 
    Devin starts talking about his father dying. 
    
    I am trying to understand where I stand in the greiving process. I have
    recognised that I have told everyone that I want to tell but I keep 
    remembering people and wonder if they know. A friend called up last
    night and said I sounded a little funny and wanted to know if
    everything was O.K. I did not want to tell her why I did not want to 
    talk to her at the time. 
    
    At times I just cant believe that he is dead.
    
    Denial, I guess I know what thats like.
    
    janet
    

<                     <<< Note 414.14 by COMET::BOWERMAN >>>

Janet, how is Devin doing?

How are you doing?

     Carol