Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    RE: .0
    
    	Robert Bly does a very good job of this. Reading his writings will
    	give you a very deep insight into how many men apparently feel.
    
    	Bly's critics criticize that all he does is focus on men's
    	self-pity mechanisms of "life is so tough for me, see what I must
    	endure as a sturdy man."
    
    	-Erik (trying to be unbiased, I have my own viewpoints of Bly)

    Another place where the system abuses men (and I really mean this) is
    in the treatment of men who would like to retain custody of their
    children in divorce cases.  The default assumption is that the woman is
    the better hands-on parent.  It is incredibly difficult, usually, for a
    man to demonstrate that he is capable of being nurturing.
    
    I also firmly believe that the average male has *fewer*
    socially-accepted roles available to play.  The male of the species is
    expected to provide for himself, even if it would be far better for him
    to be the 'household engineer' (aka chief cook and baby-watcher). 
    There is an assumption that men are not intuitive, or sensitive to the
    feelings of others.
    
    Alison

    
    	PS- Robert Bly has been called the new leader of the new Men's
    	movement. (A title both he and I don't find very applicable).
    

    
    
    i do agree that one of the ramifications of our patriarchal society
    is that there are unreasonable or unhealthy expectations made on men,
    especially men who are not at the top of the hierarchy. if nothing
    else, men are taught to hate women and living with that hate is
    certainly as bad for men as it is ostensibly for women.
    
    

    Men are taught that it is noble to willingly lay down their lives in
    war, and this can also lead to horrible injuries both physical and
    emotional/spiritual.  [I hope this is ending].
    
    Men are taught to pick up the burden of supporting themselves and X
    number of other people and to never lay it down.
    
    Men are kept from closeness with their mates, children and friends by
    the burden of #2.
    
    Men are taught that they must desire/have a beautiful woman, and the
    only way they can obtain this is by great success in the worlds of war
    and business.
    
    Briana

    I hope the time will come when we can all admit the hurt done to both
    men and women without denying or denigrating the harm done to the group
    not being discussed.
    
    Briana
    

    I think most divorced fathers are forced to pay more child support than
    they can realistically afford, and I agree that it is very difficult
    for men to obtain custody.  But, other than that, I think men have
    everything going for them as far as the system is concerned.
    
    As far as men being expected to support themselves, I've never had
    anybody jump forward and offer to support me either.  I've always had
    the impression that I was expected to support myself, as well, and it's
    harder for the average woman to support herself than the average man
    because, as we all know, the average man makes quite a bit more money
    than the average woman.  I was recently reading an article about a rap
    group in a magazine and it was mentioned that one member of a group, a
    black, 23 yr. old male, had been working running some kind of a
    printing machine for $13.50 an hr.  It was mentioned that he was a high
    school graduate.  This was mentioned in such a way as to convey the
    idea that $13.50 an hr. was a pitifully small sum of money for a 23 yr.
    old college graduate to earn.  Well, it's considerably *more* than I
    earn as a secretary at Digital, and I'm a college graduate, 40 yrs.
    old, and have worked for DEC for 15 yrs.  
    
    Lorna
    

    re .9, I meant to say *high school* graduate in all instances in the
    previous reply.
    
    Lorna
    

    The system says that when things get tough for a man,
    he had better be able to handle it on his own.  And 
    if it gets too much for him, he had better admit it 
    only to his spouse.
    
    And if he admit it in any other way, including to a
    therapist, there is "something wrong" with him, which
    he had better get "fixed."
    
    The system says that men don't touch anyone except their
    spouse, and don't accept touching from anyone except their
    spouse.  I've heard men say that they are afraid to touch
    their own kids.  The only touching allowed is handshakes,
    punching in the upper arm and slapping another guy on the
    fanny (but in this case, you had better weigh 285 and be
    wearing an NFL uniform).
    
    The system says that Greek men who link arms and dance in
    a line to bouzouki music are all queer.
    
    The system says that all emotions can be translated into
    anger, and that the energy of anger is best dealt with by
    violence or threatened violence, verbal or otherwise.
    
    The system says that everyone should aspire to be a
    president of something.  Not everyone is going to make it,
    of course; those who don't measure up will fall by the
    wayside.  Oh, some will claim that they CHOSE to do other
    things, but we all know better: "Those who can't do it, teach it."
    
    -bill

   Well I guess I'll take my chances with this one.

   The term "abuse" in this topic can be extremely open so I would like
   to narrow it down a little for my reply to be the word "respect".

   As I mentioned in my intro I am a divorced father with 2 children from
   a prior marriage and one 1 from my current wife.  I'll try and not drag
   my reply out but I feel that "the system" does not "respect" my rights
   as a divorced/non-custodial father.

   On NUMEROUS occasions my ex-wife has been in contempt of court regarding
   child visitation rules & court orders, but anytime I tried to enforce the
   court order in court, the motion  was thrown out.  However, had I done 
   something like not pay child support on time for 1 week, I would 
   automatically be held in contempt and either be jailed and/or fined.

   While my children visit with me I was entitled to 50% abatement of the 
   child support that I paid weekly to my ex.  However, she went into court
   and said that "the children's expenses have increased even during the
   visitation with me" and "the system" agreed because "she still is 
   maintaining a domicile for their return", therefore, I lost the abatement.

   How can that happen??  After all, I have to pay for ALL medical/dental
   expenses over and beyond what the insurance pays.  She has a full time 
   job plus insurance also.  How come she doesn't have to be liable for
   some of the bill.

   I have worked with non-custodial parents for quite sometime and seen the
   ACLU tell a father trying to enforce his visitation rights that it is
   a domestic issue, however, if a mother who has been receiving child 
   support on time and just doesn't want the father (who is a caring father
   that still wants to be involved with the children) around, she will 
   get the best defense the ACLU can provide to stop him.

   My stance is that non-custodial parents rights are not "respected" by the 
   system.  It just so happens that the majority of non-custodial parents 
   are of the male gender.  

   One last item and that is I do not wish to have my reply turn this
   topic into a custodial/non-custodial topic.  That can be addressed in the 
   NCPI notes conference.  I just wanted to put my 2 cents in where 
   my rights have not been respected by "the system" and I felt abused.

   Thank you for starting this topic and thanks for allowing me to share 
   this with you.

   Kenn

    RE: last
    
    	*Wonderfully* expressed Bill! Bravo!
    
    	-Erik

    In general, I agree with all the expressions here.  Eagles said
    something about how if you ain't rich you ain't nothing and it comes
    closest of whats been said so far about how this system isn't so good
    for men...but (of course) I'll go farther with it than Steve did; but
    I'll do it as a feminist.
    
    Given that I see how millenia of power relations in cultures all over
    the world have resulted in women's subjugation, subordination, and
    treatment as (at best) second class citizens, women are undoubtedly
    abused by the 'systems' of our civilization more than are men.  Thats
    the starting point.  Now, take your average, ordinary man, doesn't want
    to suppress women, doesn't want to suppress anybody; wants to get
    along, do his work, share his life, maybe raise kids, who knows...
    doesn't have any conscious malicious intent toward anybody.  He gets to
    deal with the refuse of those millenia of treatment of women.  Every
    person he meets is warped by the way we've all been brought up.  He
    himself is warped and if he's a feminist, he might even be conscious of
    the fact that *everybody* is twisted, that this society we all share
    has some sick inbuilt assumptions and everybody is carrying the
    baggage.  Whether or not he realizes it, every man has to cope with
    this residue, with the fact that relations between people are not as
    they could be.  So...yes, this system abuses us all.  It tears down and
    impedes the potential of all of us.
    
    DougO

    Who is the "system?"
    

    Or, rather, who makes up the system, who comprises the system?
    

    Okay, so the term "the system" can have the problem of being too
    vague.  I would just as soon see this note remain concrete and
    specific (while not teasing the laws on libel and slander).
    You know what your problems are.  You know there are some which
    don't have a source you can point to, and which (you hope) you
    haven't created for yourself.  If you have a male-gender-specific
    problem which is one of those, put it here.
    
    						Ann B.
    						Am I being a moderator?

     
        re: .15, .16
    
    Who is the system?  That's a really good question.
    
    Sometimes the system is the courts, or a vocal group of people
    that will in some way shame, scorn, deride, whatever...  I'm
    going to talk about something other than the courts, but I 
    don't mean to ignore the courts, etc, as VERY REAL parts of the system...
    
    But in many cases, the "system" is what I believe, what I have
    picked up in some way.  I don't like it, but I don't seem to
    be able to do anything about it, except complain.  For example,
    I wrote back there in an earlier reply that men can't touch or
    be touched except in a very restricted sense.  I accepted that
    for maybe 51 years of my 54 years.  I don't accept that any more
    and here is a little story to illustrate it.
    
    A few months ago I heard about a terrible thing that happened
    to someone that I "knew" only through a notesfile.  I was talking
    to a male friend, and I thought my friend might know this person.  I was
    walking down the hall at ZKO with my friend and I brought up the
    subject and asked him about it.  He knew a little about it and
    told me, and I got so upset that I started to lean against the
    wall, I felt so wobbly, shocked, etc.  It seemed to me that some 
    of my interaction in the notesfile (a year or two back) had been 
    connected with the incident.  I'd never felt this way (wobbly)
    before, so I didn't know what to make of it.
    
    We talked a little while longer and I felt like I needed a hug, so
    I asked my friend for a hug and I got one.  I went back to my desk
    and calmed down and went back to work.
    
    Five years ago, I would probably not even have let myself have
    the feelings, let alone need or ask for the hug.  The "system"
    in that case was in my head, and it is not there anymore.  To
    begin with, I don't believe there is any serious risk in asking
    another man for a hug in the hall at ZKO, and if anyone takes
    offense I know that it's their problem, not mine.  But what 
    about the fifty-odd years of no feelings, no hugs, no connection
    with other men?  What about all the men who can't allow themselves
    to feel anything?  Who can't ask another man for support?
    
    I don't know how "the system" got into my head.  I don't remember my father
    telling me, "Now, Bill, here are the rules about touching other
    men..."  He didn't have to.  The rules were on display all around
    me.  John Wayne didn't touch other men.  And even if he did, he
    was JOHN WAYNE, tall in the saddle, who's gonna argue with him?
    It's like the NFL players pawing each other -- who's gonna call
    'em on it?  But the ordinary guys have to play by the rules, and
    they aren't even written down anywhere.  You can't get the rules
    changed by lobbying, petitioning, writing your senator, etc.
    (Except when they are explicitly about sexual behavior, in which
    case they may indeed be written down and are worth attacking.)
    
    So, I think it is worth asking the question: who/what is the system?
    
    Bill

    
    	Sounds like what .0 was requesting was a "Men's Issues 101" of
    	sorts, no?
    
    	-Erik (women issues helps men's issues helps breaking gender roles)

    My opinion... The system is "Who ever is in charge/command  to make
    judgment".   Female... or... male..

    IS: Divorce cases.. Is it a male or female Judge.. Cases in Mass
    in the last 3 years has had a trend on who gets custody of the
    children...... On who was the Judge.. The laws can only be  judged
    by the Judge...

    REK

    
    On the issue of men not being allowed to touch.  What system is this
    related to?  Isn't this an issue of how you are brought up?  If you
    were brought up with your parent's telling you it was good, then it
    was ok and vice versa.    However, who told the parent's that their
    way was ok?  Society did.  
    
    
    
    re the court issues.  Yes in Mass the non-custodial parent is basically
    ignored.  However, this is changing.  It may not seem fast enough for
    some of us, but it is changing.  

I agree that in the majority of divorces, the male gets a bad deal.  It 
is part of the legal system and even if a male choses to fight it - 
he doesn't often win.  There is an earlier note in womannotes that I
should have replied to.  It was a note having to do with women that
gave up custody of their children and how they felt.  It appeared to
to be a given that the woman would have physical custody of the children
while the male would be able to "visit" his children.  As a humanist I
can't understand why one parent is given the legal right to spend
time with a child while the other parent by nature of gender is not
allowed custody of the child.  I feel that each parent should have an
equal opportunity to spend time with his/her children.  I feel that it
is unfair and downright shameful to be in a society where a parent is 
resticted from seeing his/her child grow.  
Now I'd like to respectfully disagreee with a number of points brought
up in previous notes.  ;^)
I agree with Lorna in that men do not in general carry the sole 
family financial burden.  Very few women these days work for "pin" money. 
By the very nature of the economy - for many families, every dollar
counts.  I think a woman feels just as much guilt as a man if the 
family can't make ends meet.
As for men crying - if a man wants to cry, no one is holding him back.
It is his choice whether of not he shows his emotions.  The "system" isn't
forcing him not too.  Many of the examples sited in previous notes were
actually dictated by choices the man made - not by the 
system.  To clarify, I don't have a choice as to whether or not I am
represented in the United States Constitution.  Nor do women have a 
choice about whether they are beaten or raped.
Get the point???  Some members of society have choices and opportunities
while others don't.   
 

    re .23  The system certainly does discourage men from crying.  By
    system I mean Society as a whole.  There have been studies done regarding
    the career impact on men who openly cry at work and the results showed
    that people subsequently viewed the man as less professional.  (Sorry
    I can't quote the study).  Worldwide, in general Society expects the man
    to perform in clearly defined ways, and crying in public is viewed as a
    sign of weakness.  Watch the reaction of other boys (or men) when a boy
    (or man) cries in the presence of his peers.  
    
    Jeff

    Well, those who believe that in the majority of divorces, the male
    gets a bad deal, haven't been through a divorce. IMHO of course.
    
    maia
    

    RE: -.1  SRO???   Could you tell me what that means please??
    
    In this note the question of semantics is important and I believe
    people are attempting to clarify it so their notes can be better
    understood. 
    
    In some cases, the system, or society or whatever are quite vaguely
    referenced as in previous notes.  
    Example 1. Society says women don't have equal rights.  (Vague,
    right??)
    Example 2. Women do not have equal rights per the U.S. Constitution.
    (states more clearly that women do not have equal rights per
    the Constitution - you can't argue this can you.)
    Example 3. Men can't cry in public their job will suffer. (Hmmmm what
    does this mean, there are certainly other places one can cry besides
    work...), if a man had a sick child and cried, how much would the
    man really be scorned??  
    Example 4. Studies show... but I don't know the studies, I just know
    they show...
    
    I think a supportive discussion for men would be very appropriate -
    I think a supportive discussion for women might be nice too!  
    Where oh where can I find a safe place for a supportive discussion for
    women???
    Too bad I can't find that safety in Womannotes.
    
    Getting back to the point I'm trying to make, as author of the base
    noter I am interested in ways where a man can not make a choice about
    _______ something because the courts/government/company policy 
    or something restricts him.  I know there are many ways a person
    may place restrictions on him or herself - I'm looking at how
    *barriers* are placed in front of men *externally*.
    I'm looking for examples of external barriers to men.
    
    RE; -1 Herb, maybe you should start a men's support note elsewhere -
    as the base note originator that wasn't my intent at all.

    If you wish to start a parallel topic that is for sensitive responses
    only, please feel free to, Herb, and put a pointer in this topic.
    
    -Jody
    

    i think nancy's point is right.  yes the system is lousy for both men
    and women, but i think the example of the prohibition on touching +/-
    crying for men is a terribly weak one which is unlikely to gain the
    sympathy of many people.  after all there have been no LAWS (ie.
    written legislation) saying a man may not cry, whereas there have been
    LAWS prohibiting women from ALL SORTS of behaviors permitted (and even
    encouraged) of men...
    
    the example of child custody is far stronger and more likely to garner
    the support of a glass chewer like me.
    
    lee

    There are no laws against women having hairy legs, either.
    
    -- Mike

    re .30
    
    touch�, mike (yes, you made me nose my soda).
    
    tho i can't say as i think being prohibited from buying birth control
    is on the same scale as being required to shave, and i hope i've never
    argued that it was...

.32

Good points, Kath.

Kathy

	Societies "laws" are sometimes much tougher and more frequently
	inforced than the laws on the Books.


	Did you know it's illegal in a certain town in Arizona to back
	out of your driveway?


	Even I, as a noncomformist, find it much more difficult to not
	conform to society's laws than to not conform to the laws on
	the books.


	"They" say that one of the toughest things facing children today
	is peer pressure.  Yet, as adults, we brush it off as not being
	tough for us to face.   Ask any homosexual adult in the "coming
	out" stage.


	kathy
	

    re:.24  
    
    So "the system" thinks that men crying openly at work makes them 
    unsuitable for some sort of executive progress?   How do you think
    this same system feels about women crkying openly at work?
    
    Sorry, but this example is not a good one for how the system
    abuses men.  
    
    
    -m

    re .35:
    
    Well, I'm white, not black, but it doesn't take a huge effort
    or great charity on my part to see that blacks get the bad ends of
    almost all sticks in this society.  I wouldn't think it would
    be hard for a man to see that's true for women too.
    

    RE: .36
    
    Well, it might be more difficult if most of the ways that the system
    works grew from *your* methods, needs, etc. Mostly, the business system
    grew up around - to answer the needs of - the men that created it and
    populated it.
    
    Also, at lot of that system borrowed or took ideologies from the
    military. Most men years ago had been in the military and the business
    world has many military-type conventions included on a subtle, or 
    not-so-subtle level. Maybe things have changed since military service
    is not so pervasive in many men's lives. For men to even realize that
    they have personal needs that are not being met in the business world
    is a real change. And to admit it....well...
    
    Anyway, it's probably easier for one "out group" to see what's
    happening to another "out group". If you're the "in group" you
    probably won't notice, because you don't identify strongly with
    the experience.
    
    --DE
    

    
    Well,  I'm sorry, but I cannot see HOW the system abuses men.
    Let's face it. It is unfair for ANY parent, male or female to be
    denied living with one's kids, BUT as long as there is DIVORCE, it
    WILL HAPPEN. There is really no choice. The parents no longer live
    together, so the children obviously has to live with one of them. We
    cannot cut them in half and give half to one parent and half to the
    other. Whenever the choice of having a divorce is made, one has to
    realize that the possibility that they may not have custody exists.
    
    Besides that, I wish I were a man so I can have the CHOICE of beating
    my spouse or not.
    I wish I were a man so I can have the ADVANTAGE of having to prove that 
    I CANNOT do a job instead of always having to prove that I CAN do it.
    I wish I were a man so I am not always the target of MAN's baser
    instincts ,thus getting raped.
    I wish I were a man so I can walk out of my marriage if I CHOOSE to and
    have a higher standard of living, and not be afraid that my spouse
    will come after me and KILL me.
    I wish I were a man so that when I go to transact any business anywhere
    people (including women) listen to me and take me seriously.
    
                                                                   

    RE: .39:
    
    >...discrimination..
    
    I am a BLACK, FEMALE, below average height, Guyanese(not U.S born)
    with an accent, and there are very few people who have encountered
    more discrimination than people belonging to the group that I am
    a part of. Even the black Americans discriminate against us.
    And I know black men intimately....I am married to one. Believe me
    when walking down a deserted road at night, he is 90% sure that he
    will not be a target for rape..same goes for the average man. Can the
    average woman say the same???????????????????????????????????????
    
    He is 100% sure that unless he is disabled, his spouse, me, will not
    beat him up. He is 190lbs 6', I am 105 lbs. I'm sure that this
    holds for the average man, maybe a lesser percentage. A woman is beaten 
    by her lover, spouse approximately every 15 minutes if not less!!!!!!
    
    Fortune magazine did a survey of Fortune 500 companies and their top
    management. The MOST qualified for the position they held were
    Black women, next Black men, then white women, lastly white men.
    So, women have to go that extra mile. Of course, being black is
    worse.
    
    I have walked into places with and without my husband, and, believe me,
    the reception is different when he is with me.
    
    Of course, there is discrimination, but we are talking of the major
    life-threatening, or survival threatening that a woman has to face
    that is Greater than that of a man..in the same way the the
    discrimnination of blacks is worse than that of whites...or are
    we saying that blacks are discriminated against the same way as
    whites????
    
    Desryn
    
    	
    

re: -1 (Desryn)...

Just because women experience more life and health-threatening situations
because of their gender does not mean that society never discriminates
against men.

Just because blacks get the raw end of most deals in our society does not
mean a white person never gets the raw end.

Why is it that saying "Sometimes men suffer for being men" imply to some
people that "Men suffer as much [or more than] women?"

Why are people so competitive about who suffers more?  I totally object to
this "I am more oppressed than you are" game.

D!

Another thought, re: the system oppressing men:

Gay men (or straight men who are mistaken for being gay) seem to get the
worse brunt of gay bashing.  Lesbians get bashed too, but it seems to happen
less often - and since women have more leeway in showing affection (women
are "allowed" to walk hand in hand, and hug, etc) that it is more likely
that a man will be thought gay (whether he is or not) than a woman.

D!

    I think the thing *I* have to remember is that the "system" abuses
    _humanity_, not just women, not just men, not just [insert any group
    here], but HUMANITY.  
    
    It seems that no one is allowed to just *be*.
    
    The other thing I have to remember is that *I* am Society; that while I
    may not be able to change the way everyone treats everyone else, I can
    put honest effort into treating people with consideration myself.
    
    E Grace

    
    re .41..objecting to the..I am more oppressed than you are... attitude
    
    I think that it is essential that we make things relative. That's the
    way that the world is. Everything is relative. A 3-bedroom house may
    be big enough for most of us, but is absolutely TINY to some others,
    and may also be a MANSION to some people in low-income housing.
    
    Anyway, if we, blacks, had not said that blacks as a group was more
    oppressed than whites as a group, we would still all be slaves, and
    i would not be sitting here writing in this notes file. Martin Luther
    King could have just reasoned...Well, white people are also
    discriminated against, why am I complaining.
    
    Also, if women had not also said that women are also more oppressed
    and demanded the ability to vote, women would not be voting now.
    Of course, men are also discriminated against, why should women
    complain about their little bit of discrimination.
    
    Maybe, always being a victim of discrimination,I am now used to
    asserting myself and not give up.
    
    Desryn.
    

	There is also the possiblity that it is up to men
	to work on correcting how the system abuses them,
	which if this is the case then that should be happening
	in another notes file not this one.  I do care about
	how men are abused, I have a son after all who is a
	man, but this is not the place for them to do the
	work they need to do, this is the place for women to
	do the work we need to do - TALK AND LISTEN TO EACH
	OTHER'S HER-STORIES.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			The system oppresses everyone
			some more equally than others.

    Good point, Peggy. So often when this happens, I don't notice til
    I'm reminded. Talk about brainwashed! 
    
    Thanks for hauling me back to reality...or what I wish were reality.
    
    --DE
    

    
    I think that one of the sad things about the system (I have
    a sense of what I mean by "the system," but I'm not sure if we would
    all define it in the same way) is that it limits us all.  A very small
    group of elite (mostly white anglo-saxon protestant, able-bodied,
    straight appearing, well educated, men) do reap substantial economic
    gains from the system, but I can see that even they lose far more (as
    I value things) than they gain.  
    
    Many men don't get to know the joy of caring for and about others, of
    expressing their full potential as emotional (as well as logical and
    powerful, autonomous) human beings.  Many women have been stopped from 
    doing work they might love, that they might excel in.  And often the work 
    women do is devalued not only by "the system" but by themselves as they
    play their role in perpetuating the system.  Men and women of color
    often suffer the limitations of the system's treatment of their gender
    and from racial prejudice.  Sometimes being a member of one devalued
    group frees us from some of the requirements of membership in another
    group, but that so-called freedom is often a function of invisibility.
    Children are often treated as possessions.  So many children so
    strongly believe (because we teach them this, I think) that any adult has 
    the right to have power over them that they feel powerless to act to defend
    themselves, to tell when they are abused.  They are accused of lying
    to get attention or to help one parent hurt another.  Anyone who
    has ever known the absolute terror of physical abuse knows that you
    can't fake it and you wouldn't want to if you could.
    
    The world that our ancestors built and which we all have a part in
    shaping (to some extent) no longer meets many of our needs very well, and
    it needs changing.  We must all work to change it.  But when one of us
    says - don't tell me of your suffering, for I, too have suffered (and
    by the way, D, I don't think you were saying this), I think we only
    serve the interests of the tiny elite at the top who (think they) have
    the most to gain by maintaining the status quo.  If we cannot hear
    and acknowledge each other's pain and anger (if and/or when we need
    to express it), we will never be able to bring about real change.
    
    Sometimes I can listen to the anger that men have toward women and
    toward the system that prevents them from having the connections they
    might want with women.  When I can't listen to it, I leave the
    discussion (and I try to do it quietly).  I can't always give my
    support, but I think I can always give my respect.  I find that when I
    am able to listen to the pain and suffering experienced from people
    who are different from me, I learn a lot.  I learn about my own
    suffering, and I learn about how I am sometimes part of others'
    suffering.  I am angry that most men can walk the streets and live their 
    lives without fear of being physically assaulted but most women cannot.  I 
    do not blame all men for my fear, for my pain, but I do not feel any need to
    apologize to even the gentlest of men for my anger.  Neither do I
    expect them to apologize to me for theirs.  
    
    Justine
                   

    
                 How many Women in this file had to face the "draft"?
    I did!  How many of you knew that upon graduating HS or College that
    Viet Nam was waiting for you?  I did!
    
                 So, Lady's , don't try and tell me that Men don't face
    life and death situations.  We do!  How many of you women are
    *expected* to raise a family and support a spouse?  Yourself maybe,
    but not a spouse..in most cases.  
    
                I don't write this to belittle *ANY* of your anger and/or
    frustration at the way your treated in this society, but sometimes it
    is easy to forget that there are tough things on both sides of this
    so-called gender gap.  Try directing your anger and frustration at the
    seeds of power that are oppressing us all!  Some of us would like to
    help but just like you, we will not be dictated to.
    
    
    Dave

    Desryn, I think your point about how life *is* relative is an important
    one that shouldn't get lost.  Thank you.  
    
    As a white woman I am discriminated against regularly...but it's not a
    patch on how women of color such as you are treated.  It would be
    disingenuous to claim that because we both experience discrimination,
    our lives and options are equivalent and we have an equal claim to
    redress.
    
    						=maggie

    	RE: .52  edp

    	>> There is also the possiblity that it is up to men
    	>> to work on correcting how the system abuses them, . . .
    
    	> Make the victim correct it . . . blame the victim.
    
    	You misunderstood.

    	Women's rights group work on correcting the way the system abuses
    	women, yet people [not you or anyone in particular] sometimes
    	come along to tell us that we should REALLY be working on ways
    	to help keep the system from abusing men.

    	If men have problems with the way the system treats them [and 
    	Womannotes is NOT "the system" in our society], they should work
    	to change the system themselves (as women are doing.)

    	Instead, we're often told that we should be MORE concerned about
    	men and men's problems in society (and should turn our attention
    	towards men as a way of proving our good will, or whatever.)

    	The default in our society is that women are expected to turn our
    	attention and our concerns to men and men's problems.  One of the
    	ways women can fight this is to find moments (and small spaces in
    	our lives) where women are the top priority.  Just for awhile.
    
    	See ya later.

    I do think it must be hard for men to worry about supporting themselves
    and others.  The reality of the situation is that most women at
    some time in their lives, if not all of their adulthood, will be
    responsible for their own support, and possibly others.  But in
    the back of my mind there is this idea that someone is going to
    take care of me.  It is hard to face the fact that that is a myth,
    and to worry about what if I get sick, what if I get layed off,
    etc..
    	Linda

    RE: .46
    
          <<< Note 394.46 by SUZIE::LEEDBERG "Justice and License" >>>
                       -< This is WOMANNOTES isn't it? >-
    
    
    Peggy, from my understanding of the "charter" of this notesfile,
    anything that is of interest to women, is appropriate for discussion.
    
    *I* find that for me to grow as a human and as a woman, I need to 
    remember that I do not live in a vacuum, and that my words and actions
    affect others.  The fact that I know that I, as a woman, am
    discriminated against, that I, as a woman, have ample cause to be
    afraid when I get home after dark and have to walk from my car to my
    apartment building, etc., etc., does not negate the fact that men have
    discrimination and abuse issues also.  Nor does it negate the fact that
    I am abused both when someone is abusing me *and* when I am abusing
    another.
    
    There was a saying popular in the late '60s -- "If you're not part of
    the solution, you're part of the problem".  I try to remember that in
    my daily life.  I usually fail miserably, but I *do* try.
    
    E Grace
    

	One more time -

	At no time will I ever say that men do not receive their
	dosage of abuse by the system.  It is just that I do not 
	feel that WOMANNOTES is the place for them to work it out,
	this is a place for women to work out our own reactions.
	Now if we wish to discuss what we (women) view as how men
	are abused by the system we should not need to also state
	what men experience - THAT IS FOR THEM TO DO - probably not
	here, though.

	In my denying men a place to work out their issues with the
	system am I then abusing them?????

	In my denying women a place to work out their issues with the
	system am I then abusing them?????

	The answer has to be the same in both cases - so if men are
	denying women a place to work out our issues and that is 
	not abuse then how can women denying men a place to work out
	their issues be abuse.

	This is WOMANNOTES - women at DEC have this place (and I might
	add that this is the only electronic place with any gleam of
	safety for women) to work out our issues with the system, yet
	we (the glass chewing feminists) are constantly in protection
	mode, to preseve this place for women.

	NOTE: At no point did I say that men are not welcome here or
	that they are not to be listened to.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			If I can not speak here then were?

	

    
    I'd like to tail end on to what E Grace said;
    	
    	Being a victim stinks, not saying anything about is a lie.
    	Not standing up and calling the secret a stinking lie is 
    	how the "system" continues to operate status quo.  Yes,
    	the victim is part of the fix if only by becomming visible
    	so everyone can recognize there is a problem.  
    
    	Abused men are part of a systemic problem, part of womans 
    	rights, part of racial recognition and civil rights.  Until
    	a person truly is seperate from all the labels applied will
    	there be any form of equality.  Membership to any group is
    	something everyone would like to subscribe to not be assigned
    	to.
    	
    Some of the negative comments I've heard here date back to the
    sixties during the time of Black civil unrest, I can still hear
    a friend saying "What are they complaining about?" followed by a
    list if his problems.  Everyone that comes to this conference
    would like to have what they feel to be a problem validated, it
    is real to them regardless of who or what they are.  Ignoring,
    and devalueing anyones problem is part of how we perpetuate the
    "system".  The system is sick, it's history is rife with abuses,
    we can continue to look at its history or better work on its future.
    Between the two only one can be changed.
    
    Peace,
    Allison
    

    

One reason Women's rights groups are so called is because they specifically
work against discrimination against women. They feel (perhaps incorrectly) that 
they may not be up to the task of correcting every single sort of 
discrimination, so they work on the one they know most about.

I guess men's rights groups are also active, fighting against discrimination 
against men. I don't feel I should criticise them for this.

I don't feel I can criticise groups such as Amnesty who only work against torture.

Keeping yourself focused on a lesser range of issues than what is wrong with the 
whole world is not necessarily bad. It makes your task more achievable

IMO.

Jane

    
    This is from a member of our community who wishes to remain
    anonymous at this time.  
    
    
    Several months ago, I composed this reply to 'rebut' the point that
    heterosexual males cannot empathize with closeted gays. Ultimately I
    did not enter the note in the MENNOTES conference. I think these
    remarks are just as relevant to the situation in WOMANNOTES. I believe
    there is NO question that oppression is one of the most important and
    prominent themes of this conference. I believe that any and all insight
    into oppression is helpful. I believe that men can help. (and some men
    who have been 'brainwashed' can BE helped)

    This is what I said... (I have replaced 'heterosexual males' by 'males'
    and have replaced 'closet gays' by 'women'

    I think that some of us have had experiences that are just as private
    to us, just as frightening for us, just as central to our existence
    as the feelings of being an oppressed woman. I think that you are
    probably correct that many men have no way of understanding the pain of
    being an oppressed woman. I think you need to understand that there are
    many men who can not only sympathize but also can empathize and can
    commiserate.
    
    I believe you owe that group of sensitive men the courtesy of recognizing
    its existence.

    Sometime in the early 60s/70s, thanks to people like Gloria Steinen(sp?),
    Bella Abzug, the women's movement 'started' (well, took off). It seems
    to me that the Women's Movement was mother to various self-help movements
    (the earlier paternity of AA is unmistakeable).  In general, people in
    other 'minority'statuses started getting recognized. One of the very early
    offspring (it seems to me) was the gay/lesbian movement. This self-help
    'movement' gave opportunity for all sorts of 'closeted' people to recognize
    they weren't alone. Gamblers' anonymous, Survivors of Incest Anonymous,
    Overeaters Anonymous, Adult Children of Alchoholics (a recent cover story
    article in Newsweek listed 15 or 20). 

    end of reprint

    (I think some of the impetus for the women's movement continues to come
    from the gay/lesbian movement. I know that much of the maternity for
    Survivors of Childhood Sexual Abuse comes from the women's movement and
    much of the paternity/maternity comes from the gay/lesbian movement.)

    So, many men can help. I believe my understanding of myself is enriched
    by this conference. I also believe I am repaying a debt. Even though I need
    to remain 'in the closet' with respect to my past, I believe that
    my public 'persona' can contribute. I believe it would be a very
    shortsighted although understandable mistake to shut men out. 


    				signed
    				a heterosexual male survivor
    
    p.s. here are MY credentials

    My experience is that I am a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. That
    experience makes me more of a 'woman' than women, it makes me more of a
    serf than Russian peasants, it makes me more of a "nigger" than
    than American Blacks.
    
    For I have been raped over 500 times. I have been thrown against a wall
    as an infant, I have been forced to perform fellatio when less than a
    year old, I have been sexually used by 2 adult women, I have been
    forced to perform sex acts at knife point. All in all I have
    been sexually abused by at least ten and possibly thirteen different
    people over many many childhood years (from infancy through age 15). The
    most profound identification I have ever experience was with "the troops 
    for Trudi Chase (authors of When Rabbit Howls).  I know what it means to 
    be subordinate. I know what it means to be oppressed. I know what it means 
    to be abused. I know what it means to be a slave. I know what it means to 
    be sub-human.

    There are many men who can hear, who can help, who can give testiment
    to the pain and anguish of being a "woman". There are many men who can
    do this without revealing their personal pain.

    Don't assume we CAN'T help. Listen to them, listen to us!

Referencing 394.48 (Justine):

   The ideas expressed in your entry parallel certain ideas I've expressed
before:

   All abuse is, to some degree, self- abuse.

   During the time of Slavery, everyone was a slave, not just Blacks. When
women were not allowed to participate in the political and economic life of
this country, then the politics and economy of this country was crippled.

   To the extent that the legacies of Slavery and forced non- participation (in
the form of discrimmination and other things) persist in this society, this
society will have failed to utilize all of its possible resources and will,
over time, lose importance in this world.

   To not acknowledge, even here, that "the system" is abusive to everyone, as
opposed to a few groups, is to create seperations without and within ourselves
that will only lead to new forms of abuse and/or justification of old forms.

   Unity is, indeed, the only key to our survival. And until people acknowledge
the effects of oppression on all of us, we simply will not survive.

                                                         -Robert Brown III

    "self-indulgent female clique"
    
    So if men are not involved, the women who are involved are by
    definition self-indulgent?
    
    This is not a new idea. It is as old as The Burning and as new
    as "Reverse Discrimination".
    
    *click*
    
    

	One more time - with feeling.

	This is WOMANNOTES not one of the generic notesfiles.
	No where does did I say that I do not want to work with
	men and women on generic issue.  It is just that this
	ONE place is for me a place to work on WOMEN's issues.
	That means that sometimes I don't address men's issues
	in this file, in fact, most times I do not address men's
	issues in this file except where they sharply intersect
	with women's issues.

	Maybe some of the vocal male rights proponents should
	take their crusade to MENNOTES and tilt with windmills
	there.

	_peggy

	No where did I state that I am ignoring the way men are abused
	by the system.  In fact working on women's issues is working
	on the way men are abused by the system.  If you can't see that
	you have something to work on.

	I am female, my responsility is to myself to fix what I can
	in my personal space.  It is not my responsibilty to fix things
	for other people - that is their responsibilty.  I therefore
	work on women's issues - my personal issues - not mem's issues.
	I am not a man and I can not FIX anything for them, they have
	to do that themselves.

	Now =wn= is a place for women to discuss issues they share with
	other women in a way that is not allowed any place else in
	notes (that is not a private, restricted conference).  A discussion
	about what we think men experience can only be from the role
	of a viewer, and in that context maybe useful in our seeing how
	our actions may be viewed.  None of this helps men solve their
	issues with the way the system abuses them.  Should I listen
	to men pour their issues over this conference and respond to 
	their requests for help dealing with their issues and put energy
	into helping them, I am then not doing what I am here for to 
	share with other women OUR issues and experiences.

	This is why I say that men should take their issues someplace
	else to be dealt with - someplace where they will not be hampering
	woman to woman discussions.  This is not ignoring the issues it
	is putting them in prespective.  Unless you are the type of person
	who would go to an AA meeting and ask everyone there to pay 
	attention to the way farmers who grow grain are being abused by
	the system because the sale of beer is down you should be able
	to understand the place - issue - discussion relationship.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			All that can be asked is that each do
			what they can do, when they can do it
			and be answerable to none but themselves.

    How many of us type at 120 words per minute?  At 60 wpm?  At 30?
    Right.  Most of us don't have the simple, minutes-per-day some
    people -- mostly men -- would like us to spend typing up the
    qualification of "While this is what I think about women and <x>,
    it does not mean that I think that men do <not-x> or that no
    men do <x> or anything else.  It means that I HAVEN'T SAID
    anything because I don't have the Time Plus Energy Plus Knowledge
    level that would be required to do it right."
    
    Feel free to point to this reply as your disclaimer.
    
    							Ann B.

    	RE: .53  edp

    	>> You misunderstood.

    	> No, I did not.

    	Let's run through this again.  Perhaps it will become clearer to
    	you on another pass.

    	>> There is also the possiblity that it is up to men
    	>> to work on correcting how the system abuses them, . . .
    
    	.52> Make the victim correct it . . . blame the victim.

    	The system abuses women, so women are working to correct this
    	problem for ourselves (even though we are the victims.)  It's
    	not a matter of blaming ourselves.  It's a matter of taking
    	action to effect positive changes in the way we are treated.

    	The system abuses men.  Women are not the system.  Whose
    	responsibility is it to effect positive changes in the way
    	the system treats men?  Some say it's women's responsibility
    	(as a way of proving that we truly seek equality.)  Women's
    	groups are already involved with trying to effect positive 
    	changes for women (and it's a gigantic job.)  Should women
    	take the time to work on making changes in the way the system
    	treats men (at the expense of the work being done to effect
    	changes in the way the system treats women?)  It's up to the 
    	women's groups to make this decision.  These groups have no 
    	obligation to set aside their own issues to work on men's issues.

    	>> If men have problems with the way the system treats them [and 
    	>> Womannotes is NOT "the system" in our society], they should work
    	>> to change the system themselves (as women are doing.)
    
    	> I see "should" is a fine thing to tell somebody when it is you doing
    	> the telling.  That's another of your sexist double standards.

    	Mea culpa.  I will arrange to have myself voluntarily shot at sunrise.

    	The point is - if women's groups refuse to work on men's issues
    	at the expense of women's issues, it's our choice.  If men want
    	their issues addressed, someone else will need to step forward to
    	do it, if they want the issues addressed.  If not, no problem.

    	> The _responsibility_ for ending injustice belongs to the person being
    	> unjust, although the _necessity_ for ending injustice may lie on the
    	> victim.       

    	We're talking about how the system abuses women and men.  If you want
    	to leave it up to the system to own up to what you consider its
    	responsibility, then no action is required from the victims.

    	If the victims do take action, though, they are not acknowledging
    	nor assigning blame to themselves.  They're simply working to effect
    	change in the absence of anyone else effecting this change for them.

    
    Suzanne, didn't we have a deal? What's wrong, did we forget to send the
    last payment? Did a check bounce or something?
    
    I'll speak to Nancy about the money. But if you want more than we're
    already sending, then you have to work harder at your end of the deal.
    
    'ren

    
    	RE: .73  'ren
    
    	Oh yeah...  That deal.  ;^)  It's been awhile since we last made
    	it to this part of the cycle of abuse, so I'd forgotten to
    	recognize the signs and re-engage "I.M." ("Ignore Mode.")
    
    	The money's been fine (although my monopoly game box is too
    	full to hold much more of this game currency.)  ;^)  
    

	re: 'Ren Foster              -< 'ren remembers... >-

>    Suzanne, didn't we have a deal? What's wrong, did we forget to send the
>    last payment? Did a check bounce or something?
>    I'll speak to Nancy about the money. 

	Ren, the check was mailed on time and not rubberized, honest! :-]

	re: Suzanne Conlon

>    	The money's been fine (although my monopoly game box is too
>    	full to hold much more of this game currency.)  ;^)  

	If extra incentive is needed.... hmmmm....  I hereby offer
	2 free hours of consulting for those technical issues that
	are going to come up around Christmas time.  Suzanne, you 
	_do_ know what I'm referring to, yes :-)?

						nancy b.

    Re .70:
    
    > It is not my responsibilty to fix things for other people - that is
    > their responsibilty.
    
Peggy,
    Using the above mindset, wouldn't that be a tad close minded?  I mean,
    if males were to use that same argument, wouldnt that be
    counter-productive?  "Why should I fix the injustices that women face
    everyday, it isn't MY responsibility?"  I don't agree with that.  I
    think that the injustices that PEOPLE face should be delt by PEOPLE.
    
    
    > This is why I say that men should take their issues someplace	
    > else to be dealt with . . .
    
    Again, should men be involved with changing the uneven society?  Or
    should women be told to go elswhere to deal with the uneveness?
    
    I disagree.
    
    EDP,
    Don't you think that you are going just a tad too far?  I mean, YES
    there are some instances where women here uses blatant sexism towards
    males, and there are males that use blatant sexism towards women. 99.9%
    of the time, if a male does said sexist act, he is called on it.  I
    also personally believe that there is a minor amout of "give" given to
    women here when they practice sexism, but they , for the most part, are
    called on it also.
    
    You make it sould as though there is so mush sexism practiced against
    males here that you cannot breath. I find that not to be true.  YES,
    there is a hint of it, but not half as much as you are saying.
    
    My opinions only folks, I AM NOT taking shots and Peggy, NOR EDP.
    
    Al

    	RE: .75  Nancy
    
    	>  Ren, the check was mailed on time and not rubberized, honest! :-]
    
    	My Monopoly Bank doesn't keep the most convenient hours, tho.  ;^)
    
    	> If extra incentive is needed.... hmmmm....  I hereby offer
	> 2 free hours of consulting for those technical issues that
	> are going to come up around Christmas time.  Suzanne, you 
	> _do_ know what I'm referring to, yes :-)?
    
    	Yes - great incentive!  Your technical advice is the best!!
    
    	At any rate, since the cycle of abuse is escalating quickly now,
    	it's best to move my thoughts to something more cheery anyway.
    
    	Thanks for the reminders, 'ren and Nancy!

	Al,

	I am responsible for my actions as you are responsible for
	your actions.  I can change my actions, you are the only
	one who can change your actions.  We are separate entities.
	
	Now I can try to encourage you to change (which is what the
	woman's movement is all about) by explaining how your actions
	hurt me BUT I can not make you change.  (Of course there are
	things that can make a person change but those are extremes.)

	If there is something about me personally that needs to be
	worked on, it is my responsiblity to do what ever it is that
	needs to be done.  I may choose to not work on it, if that
	is the case then I own the issue and accept the out come.

	If there is something about you personally that I think needs
	to be worked on, I may tell you about it or not, BUT it is 
	not my responsiblity to fix it for you.  And if I do tell 
	you about how your action appears to me, you may or may not
	choose to listen, BUT you have to accept the way the actions
	appears to me as valid for me.  You do not have to accept it
	as valid for anyone else.

	Women have been helping men for centuries to fix their problems
	it is now time for women to work on their own issues, first
	and formost.  Yes, men's issues take second or even third
	place.  It is like what they tell you in airplanes about the
	oxygen masks - "Put yours on first, then help someone else"
	did you ever wonder about why this is stressed?  It is the
	same basic issue.

	_peggy
		(-)
		 |
			It is easier to help others when
			the self is known and accepted.

    I'd say that Peggy had actually learned her lessons quite well....
    
    -Jody
    

I actually tend to agree with what Al says in .80.  

I think edp has made some very good points about responsibility, etc.,
but, as Al said, I honestly don't see the amount of sexism towards
males, in =wn='s, that edp sees.

I think I tend to think of men, in general, as being so self-confident
that humor against them won't ever hurt them.  (I mean, I guess I
think of men, in general, as being the ones in power, so why can't
I make fun of them sometimes?  Most of them  still seem to be
better off than I am, so what difference does it make?)  Obviously,
though, some men do get offended and maybe don't think of themselves
as being in power.  

Lorna

    
    EDP:
    
    As a black female (non-American), I have OFTEN been a victim of
    discrimination, and as such , will never advocate it, although,
    believe me, I recognize it from a distance..I know prejudice
    intimately.
    However, on the average, I do NOT see blatant SEXISM and DISCRIMINATION
    in this notesfile as you suggest.
    If you do, then TOUGH.....or I will share a little bit of my experience
    in this country with you.
    I complained once about something about America that I did not like
    and the American-born person that I was talking to said:
    
    "Well,Desryn..If you don't like it here, just leave.You came here of
    your own free will"
    
	Desryn( who will not read this note anymore so say whatever you
    like)
    

    Actually, I *am* terrified at the prospect that all women will become
    lesbians.
    
    -- Mike

    
    One man's terror, another woman's dream!
    
    Carla
    

    
    re: .91 I love it!
    
    				/R
    

    Actually, one advantage to every woman becoming a lesbian would be that
    I would then have a legitimate excuse for not having a love life.  It
    might remove a lot of frustration that way, since there would be no use
    fretting about the impossible.  I would then give the matter as much
    thought as I would over not being able to travel to Mars, and could go
    about the business of life without worrying about such matters.

    -- Mike

    RE: .81 Peggy.
    I better understand what you are talking about now.  thanks for
    clarification.
    
    HEAR YE
    HEAR YE
    HEAR YE
    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    YOu ALL SAW IT HERE FIRST!!!!!!! LORNA AGREED WITH ME!  GO LOOK
    its .85!  LOOK!  I TELL YOU NO LIES!!!! HONEST!!! :-) :-) :-)
    
    Lorna, please.... don't toy with me.. I am such a fragile boy.....
    
    :-)

    Mike,
    
    You mean -- it doesn't *bother* you that you can't go to Mars?
    
    						Ann B.

    Of course it does.  But I don't dwell on it.  :-)
    
    -- Mike

    re .88, Eagles, and thank *you* for your opinion.
    
    >                                                ...But these male
    > womannoters are your new breed of neo-sensitive males and are as
    > yet not fully evolved and thus are vulnerable and emotionally very
    > easily driven into a negative state because they do not yet have
    > the approval of society at large that being sensitive and vulnerable
    > is one of the possible ways to be masculine in the 1990s decade ...
    
    Hmph.  Not that those you describe don't exist; but your picture of
    these male womannoters is incomplete.  Choosing to be vulnerable to 
    the *right things* doesn't mean one can be driven about by societal
    disapproval.  Emotional health is one's own responsibility, and moreso
    when one is trying to survive within a sick society.  One method to do
    that is to reject such conventional manipulative buzzwords as masculine
    or societal approval, and instead to motivate oneself to do what one
    thinks is right no matter the negative feedback...including the choice
    to be vulnerable as a way to enhance the intimacy of relationships, no
    matter how backhanded or 'sad' eagles are about it.  One can be self-
    confident of one's vulnerability.
    
    DougO

    re: .99
    
    Umm....yea.....  I think....

    re previous few,
    
    I'm going to get in trouble if I keep laughing while 'working'
    at my terminal.
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    I was ruling out that possibility for obvious reasons.
    
    -- Mike

	Gee DougO, don't be such a s.n.a.g. - I think the bird brain is yanking
your chain...

			--Doug_who_take_eagles_with_a_grain_of_salt

    re .104
    
    like what?
    
    oh, i get it....this conference is for discussions of topics
    of interests to women, and if they were all lesbians, then 
    your love life would not be very interesting to them........
    
    

>  <<< Note 394.98 by CSC32::M_VALENZA "Note with fluoxetine hydrochloride." >>>
>
>    Of course it does.  But I don't dwell on it.  :-)

Of course you cannot dwell on it... You cannot even get there :-)