Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Ro:

  Care to tell us the school system?  Off-line by mail if you wish.

                                   Atlant

oooh! goody! can I be the 'ruler girl'?  After _years_ of convent schools I
certainly know what they're for...

you mean the 'ruler girl' doesn't get to whack folks into line for wrong
thinking?

Never mind ...

  Annie

    
    the teacher should be reprimanded
    

    re: .0 So what are you going to do about it? If it happened in my
    son's school I'd have been in the principal's office first thing the
    next morning. And that teacher would have a surprise when contract
    renual time came as well.
    
    		Alfred

    I'd complain too.

    I tended to play your daughter's part in classes and was often asked
    that same question about being a "women's libber".  I find the term
    "women's libber" itself offensive, and it took me years to come up
    with an appropriate response:

	"That depends.  Are you one of those male chauvenist pigs?"

      Sharon

    I definitely think the teacher chould be called to task.  However,
    if you choose to do that, be prepared for retribution against your
    daughter -- subtle or not so subtle.  I'm not saying don't do it,
    just be watching for signs of problems which you will have to
    counter.  Also, I'd be sure that your daughter is comfortable with
    your intervention.  She may want to handle the situation herself.
    
    Unfortunatley, the behavior probably isn't all that uncommon.  When
    Stacy (my daughter) was studying culinary arts in high school she had
    to go to the Dean and have him intervene because the head chef would
    not teach the girls in the class to carve meat. She has also run into a 
    number of very sexist professors while at college. (She's studying 
    hotel/restaurant management, a field which is not noted for progressive 
    attitudes.)  She's informed more than one of the prof's -- in front of the 
    class -- that his attitudes, comments etc. were inappropriate. So far she 
    hasn't paid the potential price for calling it as she sees it -- maybe 
    because she's an A student -- but she's well aware that she's taking that 
    risk and counts on me to back her up if it becomes necessary.
    
    I think you should be VERY PROUD that you have a daughter that will
    stand up for what is right even when it is not the popular thing to do.
    That's particularly difficult at her age when peer pressure is SO
    strong.  She's doing it in a way -- and with a sense of humor yet --
    that not only gives the offender a message but shoudl get some of her
    clasmates thinking.  Give yourself a big pat on the back for raising
    this  young lady.
    
    Polly
         

    I agree that the remark about the woman writing it therefore remark was
    of base, but the rulergirl remark.... give me a break, many times when a
    man associates a gender to a function/job some 'feminist' jumps on you.
    How do you know that a rulerGIRL vs. a ruler person was not intended as
    a neutral comment rather than assuming that it was some sort of put
    down?  Jeff

    Uh Oh I used the feminist word in my last reply.  I guess I am a male
    chauvenist pig.  How does one refer to women and men who are
    particularly aware of equal rights issues?  Is there an appropriate
    inoffensive term?
    
    I think all of us are in some ways sexist in that we have all learned
    and carry around SOME gender oriented attitudes.  Its those that are
    outspoken about it or truely unwilling to listen to others opinions
    regarding it (in other words closed minded about it) that I would label
    'libest, or male chauvenist pig'. 
    
    Jeff 

                      <<< Note 389.8 by EXPRES::GILMAN >>>
                                   -< Uh Oh >-
    >>> How does one refer to women and men who are
    >>> particularly aware of equal rights issues?  Is there an appropriate
    >>> inoffensive term?
    
    What's wrong with "intelligent?"
    
    Jim

	My children attend the Quabbin regional in Barre. My daughter Jill
reported to the family, at our usual suppertime banter session, that her
advanced history teacher made one of the male students count the number of
females in the class as well as the number of males. Males were somewhat
outnumbered. The teacher, a young woman, wanted to be sure he appreciated the
implications of the ratio of young women to young men or at least what she
felt were the implications.

	There is sexism in our public schools. Judging from what my kids report
I'd say MOSTLY DIRECTED AGAINST YOUNG WOMEN...but the pendulum swings.

	My advice to my son should he ever make advanced history is to keep
his mouth shut and do the best he can. My lifes experience has taught me
that depending on the time and place certain bigotries can be attacked and
certain others cannot.


MAC

>advanced history teacher made one of the male students count the number of
>females in the class as well as the number of males. Males were somewhat
>outnumbered. The teacher, a young woman, wanted to be sure he appreciated the
>implications of the ratio of young women to young men or at least what she
>felt were the implications.

Duuhhh...I'm missing something here.  Are you saying that the advanced
history teacher was acting in a sexist way?  And if so, against whom?  Or
are you saying she was pointing out sexism?  Or...?

And what did the teacher feel the implications *were* about having more
women than men in the class?

D!

	The teacher wanted the boy to see substantially more young women
in her class than young men and accept from that, that young women were
somehow smarter.

	I would be just as angered if a teacher made a black child count
the number of whites, a Jewish child count the number of non Jewish children,
a poor child count the number of wealthier children to the implication that
the child counting was somehow inferior. Bigotry is bigotry and that exercise
smacks loudly of it.

	Just the act of having a child submit to that in front of his classmates
says a lot, in my mind, about that teacher. I'm sure the young man in question 
will long remember the experience.

	In fairness to the teacher in question: she was somewhat provoked by
the young mans reluctance to accept some of her historical contentions;
particularly concerning women's historical contributions.The discussion at
the time , if memory serves me right, was around the Senecca Falls meeting.

	I've no doubt that sexism is mainly directed at young women in the
school rather than the young men. As a matter of fact this was the first
time I'd ever heard of a 'school related incident' such as this one.

MAC

    Mac,
    
    Well, think about it slightly differently.  How would you feel if
    a teacher made a white child� count the number of blacks, or made
    a Christian child� count the number of Jews?  Especially if it
    pointed out that the child was outnumbered?  Does this seem the
    same to you or does it seem different?  (You don't have to reply,
    but you should come to a conclusion.)
    
    � Who had just made racist remarks
    � Who had just made anti-Semitic remarks
    
    						Ann B.

    Ann, if I understand your question....the same.
    
    I didn't quite understand the bottom two lines of your note.
    
    Mac

    oops ...I just got the connection Ann. I still contend that fighting
    bigotry with bigotry is counterproductive; it tends to entrench rather
    than enlighten, I think. I guess. My lifes experience seems to suggest
    anyway.
    
    MAC

    Mac
    
    they are footnotes...
    
    a white child - who had just made a racist remark
    a Christian child - who had just made an antisemitic remark..
    
    i.e. to point out to some one who is acting in a prejudiced
    fashion the falsity of their prejudice...
    
    Bonnie

    Re .8
    
    Unless Ro's daughter is in an all girl school, I have a hard time
    understanding why the teacher would designate taking care of the
    rulers as a "girl's job".  Why not ask for a volunteer -- male or
    female -- to be the ruler person?  And, after the teacher's comment
    about the author of the text book and his subsequent remark about
    cigarette girls in Las Vegas, it's a bit tough for me to read "ruler
    girl" as a non-sexist comment.
    
    Polly

Actually, the interchange that set my knees to twitching and my teeth
to grinding from .0 was the "I like you ... are you a womens libber?"

OK, OK, I know that I come with my own filters; but it is evocative of
the clever-little-kitten-flexing-her-harmless-little-claws crap that I 
lived with for years.

Being a 'libber' is cute and precocious for the present; but there is the 
none too thinly veiled warning that it will get old oh so quickly and that
truly clever girls will put a sock in it real quick.

Indeed clever little kittens who don't learn not to use their claws upon
becoming cats frequently have them surgically removed ...

In .18 dear YGREN::JOHNSTON,
You've expressed that so well and I've tried to put words around 
those feelings for years!!!!

 ""clever-little-kitten-flexing-her-harmless-little-claws crap" - I LOVE IT

I always got this attitude from guys, in high school I was the first girl to
enroll EVER in mechanical drawing class. The mouths were dropping open on that
first day of school, believe me, but they got used to it, and I got straight As.

My own daughter has not relayed this type of story about school yet but I am
not sure she is quite listening enough right now.		-N

    .18
    
    Excellent point!

    re:.12
    
    	� The teacher wanted the boy to see substantially more
    	young women in her class than young men and accept from
    	that, that young women were somehow smarter. �
    
    That just goes to show that it all comes down to interpretation.
    You say "The teacher wanted". How do *you* know what the teacher
    wanted? The minute I read the description of that incident, the
    point that flashed through my mind wasn't that she was trying to
    point out that "young women were somehow smarter", but that young
    women weren't *dumber*.
    
    --- jerry

    re .21
    
    	Jerry the teacher made it quite clear concerning the point she
    was trying to make. According to my daughter she stated it. The
    young women in the class loved it; the young man in question just
    got angrier and I don't know what the reaction of the remaining males
    was.
    
    	I wasn't there of course but I trust my Jill's account pretty much.
    
    	Is is hard to accept that a case such as this could happen?
    
    	If so, why?
    
    MAC

    re:.22
    
    OK, but you didn't explain that in your original note. You stated
    originally that the teacher "made it clear what the implications
    of the ratio" meant without explicitly stating what those implications
    were. Based on what you actually posted, I derived my interpretation.
    
    --- jerry

    sorry Jerry I'm not the clearest noter at times.
    
    MAC

    Hi Atlant,

    We've been discussing what to do about the chauvenism displayed by
    the math teacher.  I told Kendra that a member of the Nashua school
    board was interested in investigating this further.  Kendra said
    "Getting him into trouble would not change his attitude.  It might
    shut him up out of fear, but underneath he'd still believe the
    same.  This is a challenge for me and I want to show him by
    speaking up when he makes those statements." 
    
    I think this will be a learning experience for both Kendra and the 
    teacher.  She will learn that you have to work with a lot of people
    with dinosaur attitudes in life, but it IS possible to be successful
    without compromising your beliefs or behavior.  Perhaps the teacher
    will learn that the most lasting impressions made on students have
    less to do with the subject matter and MORE to do with how one 
    delivers the information and who they are as a role model.
    
    However, I intend to monitor the situation closely and take action if
    necessary.  I DO intend to let him know (with humor) that I'm aware
    of his behavior at the next parent/teacher conference.  One thought 
    both Kendra and I have had is that maybe he is playing devil's advocate
    to raise the students' consciousness...

    I will also post this note in the file.

    Thanks for your concern,

    Ro 

Ro ,

Good luck to Kendra. One bright child!  And if she tires 
of you folks, she can come and stay with me. :) :)

>   ... I DO intend to let him know (with humor) that I'm aware
>   of his behavior at the next parent/teacher conference.  

Draw your decision tree before the conference. Otherwise, when 
you let him know (with humor) that you are aware, he may humor
you back in some truly offensive way: "What a shame Kenra's
not Ken" or something that reeks equally.

>    ... maybe he is playing devil's advocate

Yes, teachers do that. For about ten minutes at a time.

    
    
    I think it is great that Kendra has the initiative to speak her
    mind especially in this situation.  She certainly has a wonderful
    attitude and will use it to further herself.
    
    re the advanced history class.  All through junior and senior high
    school I was in advanced classes.  It wasn't until I read this note
    that I rememebered that the majority of the folks in the classes were
    female.  So what?  It didn't make a difference then, why should it
    make a difference now?  I did not automatically assume that girls
    were naturally smarter than boys because there were more of them.
    
    When I was in engineering school there were only two females in the
    class.  Both of us were very good students.  Just because we were
    the minority, were we supposed to be less smarter than the boys
    merely because we were outnumbered?
    
    
    I think it is great that young girls today like Kendra are speaking
    their minds on issues that hit home to them.  They are our future!
    If they can combat issues like this to make our future better then
    more power to them!!
    
    Michele 

    I didn't get to be a women's libber when growing up - only a Tomboy.
    
    But I feel very strongly that the teacher's remarks were out of order,
    and out of the '50s in attitude.   I also hope that the teacher would
    not actually intend to make an offending remark, and that he would
    welcome your bringing it to his attention.   I can remember similar
    comments from professors in college, and from teachers in high school
    and grade school, and would have welcomed parental assistance in
    dealing with them.   
    
    -m