Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I vote for Lucretia Mott, one of the first feminists, or Mary Dyer,
    a woman who stood by her spiritual faith.
    
    E Grace

    Thank you E Grace. This will make him think. I'll see him tomorrow at
    his soccor game and give him the names then. Afterwards, a trip to the
    library is in order to start him off.
    
    Appreciated,
    
    Phil

    Phil, I should note (NPI) that Mary Dyer literally hung for her 
    faith.  She was hanged on Boston Common for having the temerity to
    come back to the Commonwealth.  The is a statue of her in Boston
    (on the Common?). It is one of only 2 statues in Boston that
    commemorate women.  If you do a DIR/TITLE=FRIENDS, you should come
    up with my note FRIENDS AND WOMANKIND.  You will find some interesting
    information there, and you are more than welcome to extract it if you
    think it is of any value.
    
    E Grace

    Again, E Grace, my thanks.
    
    Phil(who is going to his comic book store now, with much to think on)
    
    have a nice weekend everyone.

    
    Phil,
    
    In re: your second question...
    
    At 15.5, she should be well old enough to comprehend and benefit from
    some of the standard "Wicca" texts...
    
    Try "Drawing Down the Moon" by Margot Adler for an overview of Pagan
    and NeoPagan systems.  Try "Spiral Dance" by Starhawk for a look at a
    basic, frequently used system.
    
    If you would feel more comfortable with your daughter investigating a
    group with (typically) fairly conventional roots, try your local
    Unitarian Universalist church.  Many of them have a women's study group
    to explore Goddes religion called "Cakes for the Queen of Heaven"
    (which a couple of wonderful =wn=ers teach :-)  and a mixed gender,
    more-or-less Celtic based group called CUPS (Covenent of Unitarian
    Unniversalist Pagans.)
    
    Hope this helps...send mail if you'd like more info...
    
    					/Rita
    

    Let me offer the standard list - there may be women whom would be worth
    learning about.
    
    Amelia Earhart
    Mary McLeod Bethune
    Clara Barton
    Sojourner Truth
    Susan B. Anthony
    Harriet Beecher Stowe
    Harriet Tubman
    Shirley Chisholm
    Elizabeth Dole
    Jeanne Kirkpatrick
    Sandra Day O'Connor
    Geraldine Ferraro
    
    More obscure ones I can't name! 
    
    Who's the retired rear admiral from the Navy that Digital hired.
    Practically the mother of computer programming!
    
    Who's the woman who became a millionaire by starting her own company of
    cosmetics for black women at the turn of the century?
    
    Who was the feminist from way back who pioneered the Pill as an
    opportunity for freedom for women from unwanted childbirthing?
    
    

    Good list, 'Ren- I'd add:
    
    Margaret Fuller (1810-1850)
    Lucy Stone (1818-1893)
    Matilda Joslyn Gage (1826-1898)
    Charlotte Perkins Gilman (1860-1935)
    Emma Goldman (!) (1869-1940)
    Alice Paul (1885-1977)
    Virginia Woolf (1882-1941)
    Mary Ritter Beard (1876-1958)
    
    These women are all Americans generally recognized as feminists.
    
    > Who's the retired rear admiral from the Navy that Digital hired.
    > Practically the mother of computer programming!
    
    Grace Hopper.  The others I don't know.
    
    DougO

    How about Rosa Parks?
    
    --- jerry

    re:  witchcraft
    
    You may try a book store in Porter Sq, Mass Ave in Cambridge for 
    reading matierials.  The store's name is Arsenic and Old Lace.
    There's also another store in Arlington on rt 2A, I believe it's
    called The Unicorn Book Store.  I don't know very much about 
    what's available in terms of literature for a younger reading
    audience, but both stores do carry a softcover book called
    "The Witch's Bible Complete" and I can't remember the authors,
    but it was a duo.  Is your daughter interested so much in the
    Old Religion, the history of it, the peresecutions or all of it?
    
    Christine

    'ren
    
    wasn't the black woman who made a fortune in the cosmetics industry
    Madam Walker?
    
    bonnie

�    Who was the feminist from way back who pioneered the Pill as an
�    opportunity for freedom for women from unwanted childbirthing?
    
    I believe you're thinking of Margaret Sanger, 'ren, though she was a
    passionate supporter of birth control in general, the Pill postdated
    her by a few years.
    
    						=maggie

    that should be *quite* a few years... =maggie, Margaret Sanger was
    active in the 30s about 30 years before the pill.
    
    Bonnie
    
    (whose first gyn was a disciple of Sanger)

    I thought she didn't die til the 50s though, no?

    yes, you are right!
    
    I wish I knew when my gyn Lucille Lord_Heinstein (I think) died
    I never saw her obit but she must be gone by now.
    
    Bonnie

    Thank you all for the suggestions. I will extract them with your
    permission, I hope. I'll help my son choose one and go with him to the
    library to do help with the research. 
    
    On the second question, I got some mail with a few suggestions that
    have been repeated here. I gave her the titles. The UU's were something
    I hadn't thought of. I know they are about the most liberal religion
    going in America now. Nashua has a church. Is this taught at Nashua's
    church? I have a copy of the Spiral Dance and will give it to her when
    I see her. I got a lot out of it. Thanks to -wn- for recommending it to
    me in the Goddess topic. 
    
    Are there any book stores in Nashua that might offer some of these? I
    found Spiral Dance at Booksmith's in the Pheasant Lane Mall, but
    couldn't find any of the others. Cambridge and Boston are a bit tough,
    as I don't drive.
    
    Again, thank you all for the suggestions. It is much appreciated.
    
    Phil

    Most of these books can be found at the Toad Stool bookstore in 
    Milford, N.H. (located on 101A, east of Milford center).

    Mandy

		My oldest daughter Christina has been interested in Witchcraft
	for at least a couple of years now. She's built an impressive library
	on the subject and I'll try to remember to get you some titles. The
	Wicca religion (?) is her predominant interest now but she has covered
	some impressive ground on the subject in general. A large part of her
	personality seems attracted to areas beyond the conventional wisdom.
	We think this is good.

		Interestingly enough Christina also belongs to a young persons
	Christian group in Barre; even though she says she'll never convert as
	the group would like her to.

	Although I understand your discomfort (we discovered recently
	that Christina has done some 'spells) I would advise gentle
	guidance rather than restriction.

	Best of luck,
	MAC

    Sounds like there may be some mixing up of the concepts of witchcraft,
    wicca, and maybe paganism would enter in here somewhere, so please see
    also:
    
    Womannotes-V2
    873 - Wicca
    
    Religion
    7 - and then there's paganism
    
    Dejavu
    103 - what is a witch
    131 - witchcraft and shamanism
    
    -Jody
    

    Thank you Jody. I'll check the referenced notes. MAC, thank you for
    sharing that. I'm pretty open minded on the subject with some, I hope,
    understandable reservation because it's my daughter where talking about
    here. Her mother who isn't at all liberal is where the problem would
    lie. She was a liberal and became a mercenary when she found out I was
    never going to be a millionaire. :-) We're divorced and Amy lives with
    her. Amy approched me on the subject, because 1, I'm fairly liberal,
    2, I read my own Tarot cards, (Greek Mythology) and 3, I've always been
    pretty "strange" anyway. I'm willing to let her explore the subject and
    hopefully try to steer her towards Feminist Wicca or Goddess worship as
    I've found these to agree closest with my own personal philosophy about
    life. If she doesn't find answers here, then she may look elsewhere. I
    won't cram any of this down her throat. I only hope her mother
    understands if and when Amy decides that this is what she wants to
    pattern her lifestyle around.
    
    Phil

    Some of my favorite accomplished women (other than many who have
    already been mentioned):
    
    Mary Cassat - painter
    Louise Nevelson - sculptor
    Margaret Bourke White - photographer
    Beryl Markham - aviator
    Ayn Rand - writer and philosopher
    Maria Irene Fornes - playwright (contemporary!)
    Lillian Hellman - playwright
    
    Thanks for asking.  This restores some faith in educators!
    
    Nancy

    re .21 If .0's son reports on Ayn Rand he'll flunk.
    
    Dana

    This is toungue in cheek, yes?  Explain, please.
    
    Nancy ;-)
    

    Lorraine Hansberry.  (I'm  not  sure  if  I'm  even  close  on the
    spelling,  but can't look it up here.) Anyway she wrote "Raisin in
    the  Sun", which is a tremendous play about racism and how one can
    maintain  one's self respect in spite of it. (For more racism, you
    might  note that Lloyd Richards who directed it on Broadway didn't
    get another job directing for 15 years.)

    The play  is about a black family trying to buy a house in a white
    neighborhood, and the playwright's father was the plaintiff in the
    case  in  which  the  Supreme court ruled restrictive covenants to
    keep blacks out were illegal.

--David

    re .23 It would need a whole note. Suffice it to say that Rand is
    *not* the darling of the education establishment.

    Dana

    Florence Nightingale?  Virginia Woolf?  Hey, don't forget Joan of Arc
    in your list of Great American Women.

    Martin :-)

    in re .23 & .25, Ayn Rand
    
    I've read 2 of her books.  _The_Fountainhead_, many years ago, and I
    found the love story unbelievable (are we supposed to believe in esp,
    or magnetism, or what??) and I was too young to pay attention to any
    philosophy at the time!
    
    I read _Atlas_Shrugged_ this spring.  Sheesh.  I get the picture about
    capitalism, and govt regulation, and free enterprise; do you have to
    beat me about the head and shoulders with a large baseball  bat for
    most of 9 million pages to get the message across?  And let's get real:
    was there no reason other than selfish greed for such restrictions on
    free capitalism as child labor laws? labor unions? the FDA?  Rand did
    have strong and valid points, but it was heavy going to wade through
    them.  And the love story was more of the same (wordless, guiltless,
    philosophically-based animal attraction, somehow never to the non-PC
    person!).  And if she used the word "clarity" one more time I'd scream.
    
    The friend who inspired (?) me to read it said apologetically, 'it's in
    the tradition of the great Victorian novels, like Dickens'.  My answer:
    read _Gone_With_The_Wind_.  It's much better (and btw, has a very
    <head>strong woman lead, too).

    I want to thank everyone for the wonderful suggestions of women for my
    son to write about. I think that he copped out a little by choosing
    Amelia Earhardt. She was a pioneer in independent, freethinking women
    and aviation, and is one of my favorite historical figures, but I think
    he should have chosen someone a little more obscure. Well, we both have
    something to do now. He has future lists to choose biographical reports
    from and I have a bunch ofnew people to learn about. His reports not
    due until the 24th and he has already passed it in. 8 paragraphs taken
    from the encyclopedia and he'll probably get an A or B on it, but he
    could have done so much better and really learned something too.
    
    Amy is still looking for book titles and I'll make a present of the
    Spiral Dance to her when I'm done with it. Maybe we'll go to the UU
    church in Nashua some weekend after I've read a little bit about it.
    I've added the UU conference to my file and will readup on it at the
    library while I'm checking out the historical figures.
    
    Again, my sincerest thanks for all the suggestions and help. It just
    proves once again that you people are all the greatestn nicest, most
    caring and helpful people I've ever meant
    
    Phil

    Another interesting possibility would be Jean Donovan, one of the four
    U.S. nuns who were murdered by death squads in El Salvador in December,
    1980.  After spending some time there initially, she had left the
    country, and was urged by Father Michael Crowley not to return.  He
    told her, "You will be kidnapped, tortured, and killed.  Don't go
    back."

    After pondering this for a time, she decided to return anyway.  She
    explained her reasons to a friend in a letter:

    "Several times I have decided to leave.  I almost could except for the
    children, the poor bruised victims of adult lunacy.  Who would care for
    them?  Whose heart would be so staunch as to favor the reasonable thing
    in a sea of their tears and loneliness?  Not mine, dear friend, not
    mine."
    
    Jean Donovan was last seen alive in El Salvador on December 2, 1980,
    leaving the airport with three other American churchwomen.  The bodies
    of the four women were found two days later; they had been raped and
    shot.

    -- Mike

	In my first reply I mentioned the reservations my wife and I had
over my daughters interest in Witchcraft , religions and such. I had some
difficulty expressing what those  concerns were, particularly within the
framework of our liberal approaches to child rearing.

	After some thought and conversation with Allison, my wife, I've
quantified some of those concerns.They might be some of the legitimate concerns
of your ex wife and then again maybe not.

		*****WARNING OPINIONATION COMING***********

	Some of the literature provides a rational basis for what I'd consider
questionable practices. The Satanic Bible by Anton Le Vay, for instance, tries
to rationalize evil as simply a reaction to the inherent hypocrisy of various
Christian faiths."Gee"'one would be lead to say, "this stuff isn't really so 
bad". After reading the satanic Bible I became mindful of the writing of 
DeSade; he used a similar approach of layering rationalizations until his
basic premise assumed the illusion of validity just from the sheer weight of
it all. Its a tried and true technique practiced in social,political and alot
of the self help genres.

	Another part of the problem is the unrealistic expectations that some 
of these books may set in young minds. The spells which promise various degrees 
of influencing power over events and people are a case in point. My daughter
actually tried some spells, which as I mentioned previously, greatly concerned
me.

	It's hard for a rationalist to admit the great power that this genre
has over people. Maybe I don't like to be reminded how thin the civilized
layer really is and how so many people will willingly suspend their rational
defenses to be enlightened,born again or otherwise. I must admit this power
though, certainly the popular marketplace verifies it, and am very concerned
about it within the context of influencing young minds.

	The approach Allison and I are using is: 1) Make christina aware
of the problems inherent in the literature; 2) Express our faith in her
abilities to handle it all; 3) Watching her behavior carefully for any
radical changes which might indicate we were wrong in our approach. So
far Christina is doing very well....but I admit I'm still nervous.

	I'll light a red candle at midnight for our protection....


MAC

    re .26, oops.  I was one who said Virginia Woolf, sorry.  She was
    English.  Hey, I filtered Wollstonecraft, Harriet Martineau, Barbara
    Bodichon, Josephine Butler, Millicent Garrett Fawcett, and others from
    England...
    
    DougO

    
    Mac,
    
    I can certainly understand your concerns; I think your response in
    dealing with them is appropriate (right down to the red candle ;-).
    
    I would like to point out one thing:
    
>	Another part of the problem is the unrealistic expectations that some 
>of these books may set in young minds. The spells which promise various degrees 
>of influencing power over events and people are a case in point. My daughter
>actually tried some spells, which as I mentioned previously, greatly concerned
>me.
    
    Frankly, I don't see any difference here than in traditional religions. 
    Traditional religions very typically direct their followers to
    influence things in their lives "through the power of prayer" or
    whatever.  Before being too greatly concerned, consider asking yourself
    if you would feel differently if your daughter "prayed" for (for
    example) success in a job interview or if she "cast a spell" for a
    successful job interview.  I'd be more concerned with her goals than
    the methods .
    
    Truly, if you have raised your daughter in a way that she has strong
    ethical and moral values, they will hold, no matter what religion she
    chooses.
    
    					/Rita
    
    

    re .31:
    
    Mac, was the last line of your reply facetious?
    
    					andrew

	reply 33,34:
    
	If I have offended anyone (Wicca practioners or other) by my earlier
	responses; my apologies..no insult intended.

	Rita...you raise some excellent points ,so much so ,that I admit some
	fuzziness in my thought process here. One thing my daughter has told
	me is that a lot of the traditional religions practice rituals and have
	beliefs which came directly from earlier religions, so it is indeed
	difficult to criticize the older approaches based on the newer.

	I would offer this though:

	I don't believe a minister or priest in a traditional religion would
	counsel praying for someone to fall in love with oneself. There are
	numerous spells which promise this outcome however. These and some
	of the darker expectations which are part and parcel of spells...
	bother me.

	The lighting of the red candle was facetious.


MAC

    
    Not to worry Mac, I'm certainly not insulted.  I think you're doing a
    pretty good job of dealing with things unfamiliar to you.  That you
    seek to understand your daughter's practices instead of condemning them
    outright shows you to be openminded and considerate of your daughter's
    wellbeing and individualism.  How could anybody be insulted by that?
    
    >	I don't believe a minister or priest in a traditional religion would
    >	counsel praying for someone to fall in love with oneself. There are
    
    Ah, perhaps not, but I bet that doesn't stop a typical love-struck
    mooneyed adolescent from doing it ;-)  It's right up there with the
    more "traditional"  "daisy spell".  ("s/he loves me.  s/he loves me
    not.)  I think this has more to do with adolescence than with Wicca :-) 
    It is true, however, that Wicca and the old religions tend not to see
    human sexuality as "sinful" the way that many mainstream religions do. 
    If traditional religions had that view, you might well see a minister
    or priest counsel such a thing.  If your daughter's views on sexuality
    are different than yours, well, perhaps that's another area that the
    two of you need to discuss - it *is* one area where mainstream
    religions and Wicca/Goddess Religion/etc. differ.  I'd suspect that
    sexuality is also an area where parents and their adolescent children
    (and maybe their adult children as well :-) tend to have differing
    opinions regardless of religious differences.  It's part and parcel of
    parenting...
    
    					/Rita
    
    

    Mac and I seem to have the same fears. He is just farther along because
    his daughter is already practicing. Amy has said that she just wants to
    learn about it. I suppose some of this is due to the fact that myexwife
    and I weren't churchgoers. We were married Catholic and our children
    were baptised Catholic. She was brought up Catholic and my family was
    Catholic on my mother's side (technically excommunicated due to
    divorce) and one of the Protestant sects on my father's. We never
    really practiced our religion beyond 1958. I was made to go to Sunday
    School until I was 13. After that, I went to class to join the church,
    but I was the only one who showed up and the minister said he couldn't
    be bothered teaching just one. I, precocious as I was, told him that if
    he was going to condemn me to the FIRES OF HELL by his tenents, then I
    was never coming back and walked away forever. I can see where my
    children have gotten an ambivalent religious upbringing. 
    
    The jist of all this rambling is mainly to thank Mac for voicing his
    fears and to thank all the others for their oppinions, thoughts, ideas
    and encouragement along these lines. This is especially important to me
    as I have been reading about this and other occult subjects for years
    and am still nervous about Amy seriously studying this. Guess it's the
    old attitudes rearing their heads. You know. Do as I say or recommend,
    not as I do type of thing. I am attempting to overcome it and would
    never flat out forbid something. Also, it's OK for someones else's kid
    to do it but not mine. Not that I think it is necessarily OK for
    someone's kid to do it. Just that when it's Amy, it's closer to home.
    
    Thanks for letting me ramble.
    
    Phil

    A suggestion to Phil and Mac -- read the same books about Wicca and
    Witches that your daughters read.  Then you'll at least have a common
    basis for discussion.  
    
    					andrew

	One of the main points brought out in Wicca is responsiblity
	for one's actions.  I can not say if the books your daughter
	is reading express this clearly or not but all of the ones
	that I have picked up that are earth-based pagan/wicca spirituality
	types - stress this very clearly.

	My daughter and my son are interested in Wicca and have been
	taught from day one that "magic" is not for control over anyone.
	Anything you "send" out will come back to you three times over.
	
	There is also the MZB saying "Be careful of what you ask for,
	you just might get it." without the important variables and
	details.

	As for praying for someone to "fall in love" with you, I know
	many young women who did just that.

	BTW - Satanism is much more Christian than wicca.  Wiccan works
	with power within oneself, satanism and christianity works with
	someone/something having power over oneself and both of these
	have symbolic blood sacrifies.  Wiccan's would never waste
	something as powerful as blood our link to the universe.

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			It is the blood of the universe that flow
				through our veins.
			Our forms pass, but the cycle of life remains.

    Phil,
    
    I did not mention this before, as I am never sure if my enthusiasm for
    my chosen religion is spilling over to intrusive force-feeding.
    However....why not?
    
    Your daughter may also be interested in looking at the Religious 
    Society of Friends.  They are probably just about the least traditional
    of the so-called traditional religions.  There is a notes conference
    on the network.  I haven't figured out how to set up the PF7 key yet,
    so I'll just give you the address:  TINCUP::QUAKER
    
    It's not a tremendously active conference, but there is some _very_
    good information about the various slants, the lack of creed, etc..
    Also, I am in the process of transcribing the FRIENDS AND... series 
    into the conferences.  This is a series of pamphlets that explains
    Friends' views on different subjects.  The note I entered entitled
    "Friends and Womankind, a Friends viewpoint" is one of these.  Please
    feel free to roam around in there and sample things.  It may interest
    your daughter, it may not, but it's free!
    
    There.  I hope no one's throat feels stuffed.
    
    E Grace

    What Peggy said is absolutely true:  "as ye sow, so shall ye
    reap...*3".  No witch in her/his right mind will cast a spell for ill,
    it's just too costly in terms of damage to one's own karma.
    
    There's a bumper sticker that says it very well:  "Witches Heal".

Moms Mabley - The Encyclopedia of Black History has a 2 to 3
              pages entry.  And her records still show up
              in used book stores (tho heaven knows some
              selective editing would be needed for school).

              Her life story is now a play, too, but I haven't
              seen the printed form anywhere. (The jackals are
              still fighting over the movie rights.)

Josephine Baker - La Bakki'r (I think that's the French version)
              Now there's a life story!

P.S.  I know Amelia Earhart (sp?) was choosen, but my two cents was
      burning a hole in my notebook. :)

    re .43. That's OK. I'm still looking for suggestions. I'll have lots of
    autobiographies and biographies to read this winter. One cannot live on
    SF and comics alone. If my Kevin doesn't use them, then Amy might need
    one and I'll increase my knowledge a billion fold.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Phil

    re:.44
    
    	� One cannot live on SF and comics alone. �
    
    WHAT????!!!!!
    
    Sheesh. Next thing, you'll be trying to tell me there ain't no
    Santa Claus...
    
    --- jerry

    I'm sorry Jerry. Yes there is a Santa Claus. I've met him and gotten
    the bills for the stuff he keeps sending to my kids.  Besides some of
    the biographies that I've read would qualify as SF.
    
    Phil

serious nit/rathole alert here...

>    I'm sorry Jerry. Yes there is a Santa Claus. I've met him and gotten
>    the bills for the stuff he keeps sending to my kids.

	The Santa Claus who I'm most familiar with is most definitely
	female.  Not only that, she has excellent taste and fills
	stockings for adults as well as for children.

	I've tried to talk her into doing more PR-work in malls so that
	children don't grow up believing that all the Santa Clauses in
	the world are male, but she insists that the extra "caseload"
	makes it impossible.

	    Sharon