Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    >Am I missing something here?
    
    No, the joiners are. Specifically, a sense of self.

    Right.  I always assumed these people joined in order to have
    guaranteed "friends", dates and a (false) sense of security, social 
    or otherwise.
    
    Nancy

    
    re .0:
    
    A guess - they just haven't grown up yet?
    

    I suppose no one can know the desperations of another.  Maybe the
    search for acceptance drives these women.  Maybe it's just one of the
    sadder aspects of human behavior , and (thankfully) I don't understand
    it because it's not one of my problems.
    
    I have others :-] I guess
    
    Is it related to the emulation of style? which includes following the
    latest fads, the coolest leaders, the most popular kid.  I've seen in
    in my daughter (but she's only 8!) and have tried, with some success,
    to help her to at least understand what her criteria are.  She was
    willing to let Amber rule, even when Amber was being mean to her or to
    another girl, and so was the whole crowd, because Amber was seen as a
    popular leader.  But Tracy volunteered the opinion, 2 months after
    seeing this Amber for the last time, that it was Amber's looks and
    popularity that caused her to go along with Amber, and that Amber was
    not really a good friend to anybody.  (Was I proud of Tracy!)
    
    So maybe these girls are stuck in childhood?  I don't see that the
    hazing does anything but reinforce that...
        

    We discussed fraternities over in quark::mennotes #439 last spring.
    
    Insofar as people degrade others I agree that the greek systems
    at far too many schools are more damaging to individuals, and
    oriented more towards enforcing conformity to outdated and
    stereotypical social norms.  By the way, *that* is how I would
    interpret your daughter's confession, that she followed the lead
    of a 'popular' but mean person because that person was considered
    physically attractive.  [illustrates social norm conformity]
    
    But I regard this as a perversion of the ideals of these sororities
    and fraternities, and it doesn't have to be that way, and sometimes 
    isn't.  Thus, I can't join in the universal condemnation of such
    groups.  My experiences are detailed over in mennotes, for people
    who'd like more info on them.
    
    DougO

    Doug, I'm glad to hear that there are 'greeks' that don't fit my image
    of them -- I wish there were more.  I'll look in mennotes for the
    discussion.
    
    I was proud of Tracy because she figured out for herself what was going
    on, and decided for herself that she was uncomfortable with her reasons
    for having followed that leader.  Tracy brought the subject up long
    after the last time she was in the situation. Peer pressure is strong,
    and the first step toward resisting it is recognizing it.
    

    When I was in college, there were about 200 women (100 on campus) and
    3000 males. That breaks down to about 25 resident women per class. There
    were two sororities, and part of the pressure to join indeed was to have
    a group of friends of your own gender to hang out with. I, and about 15
    other women started a 3rd sorority because we didn't like what we saw
    in the others. I admit that we were a bit of a maverick group to begin
    with and made no bones about the fact that we admitted a "token WASP"
    to our ranks (guess why we made a point of telling everyone that?), but
    we recruited pledges with the slogan "come to visit us, not to do our
    chores". We did require that our pledges do a lot of
    visiting to get to know the sisters, but but it was really "quality
    time", not time to degrade them. We spent a lot of time tutoring or
    just listing and counseling the pledges on things on getting over the
    loneliness of being away from home/boyfriend, dealing with some blatant
    MCP professors or just coping as a member of the female minority in the
    school. Now, we did kidnap pledges (always to an ice-cream shop 1 mile
    from the school, and the kidnaping sister paid for the pledges' sundae),
    and we did make them dress up the bronze school mascot with a knitted
    cap and scarf when it snowed, but that is the closest we did to hazing,
    and I do think that that made us better friends. Today, that kind of
    stuff sounds stupid but back then it was a great way of relieving
    pressure.

    I guess looking back, I know that *I* joined a sorority because it was
    a place that I felt that I really belonged and was accepted in an
    overwhelmingly male environment. I guess what I am saying is that the
    organization felt like a safe haven. We had a lot of fun togeather,
    (in fact, most of us worked in the cafeteria), and I really think that
    it enhanced my college experience.  Also, I got to know some people
    quite well that I probably never would have. I still keep in touch with
    some of the sisters.

    Deb 

    I did not participate in the Greek experience, but I had many friends
    who did. RPI was similar to the school Deb describes, i.e. lots of men,
    and few women. We also had two sororities until the women on my floor
    started a third. None of the three had much to offer me, especially as
    I was black, and needed/wanted the cameraderie of other black women -
    we had our own unique college experience that we needed to peer bond
    about! :-)  BLACK MEN!
    
    A fourth sorority from a local SUNY campus recruited black women from
    RPI. Alpha Kappa Alpha Inc. is one of the most prestigious black
    sororities, and I wanted to pledge. I didn't have the pre-requisite
    2.5/3.0.  Unlike "white" sororities (face it, most of them are
    predominantly white!), AKA's often stay in touch for their entire
    lives. And continue to network, hold social and charity events, and
    help each other get jobs, become established in a community, feel
    welcome.
    
    Yeah, you pay a small price in terms of some humiliation in the beginning.
    But the payoff CAN last your whole life. There is value in having a
    network of women to call on any time for the rest of your life. That's
    what a black sorority can offer. Its not something to snear at.

    If I may, I think I have something that relates to the discussion
    at hand:
    
    When I was in college way back in 1981, the movie "Animal House"
    was still very much embedded in the minds of college students, and
    the toga parties were still very much a ritual in the dorms. 
    
    My college was set way up on a hill just over the border in New
    Hampshire (Franklin Pierce College), and the population was small.
    This isolation got to many people (which probably explains why we
    had a tremendous drop-out percentage before the snow fell on the
    ground ;-)).   I guess you could say that the ratio was about 5
    males to every female on campus. 
    
    Fraternities and sororities were not allowed for the longest time
    for various reasons; but primarily because the college didn't want
    what had once been known as responsible groups of students gathering
    and cohabitating in peaceful, productive environments (yeah right)
    which turned into unpeaceful, unproductive groups of riotous 
    imbecilic party animals.
    
    This aside, there were several "factions" of students who tried
    and tried to gain approval through the campus government to allow
    the farts...I mean, the frats to exist on/off the campus. They were
    vehemently denied. Sooo, an off-campus house was found and a group
    of these students (males and females) set up their own fraternity.
    
    The men were on the third floor of the house, while females were
    on the first, and neither the twain should meet? Not so, Watson.
    But, these guys weren't the rowdiest of fellows, by any standard.
    And neither were the females of this bunch. They were the scholastic
    wonders of the campus...priviledges uncompared and grades unsurpassed
    by anyone else on campus...*THATS* why they were all having a tough
    time existing *on* the campus...because the campus was absolutely
    rowdy whenever it possibly could be! 
    
    There wasn't a single dorm on this campus where a girl felt "safe". 
    That's why these folks didn't "fit in", as it were. They would
    constantly be harrassed as nerds by the "underachievers" whose only
    goal in college was to figure out where the next keg-party was going 
    to be. I was neither a party animal nor a scholastic genius (as
    some of my type-o's in notes will attest), but I saw how these students
    were treated and all I could say was "These people are going to
    be killed on this campus."
    
    I guess you could call this a reversal of the matter, but I must
    admit that there are times when not only are fraternities appropriate
    but, as in the above case, it was downright essential. But outside
    of this one cited example, I have been and probably always will
    be against the type of farts...I mean, frats such as the ones described
    by the basenoter. This type of ridiculously appalling behavior has
    got to end. 
    
    The idea that frats are merely a place to party, get drunk and get laid
    ( not necessarily in that order ) is idiotic. This does not prepare 
    anyone for what awaits them in the "real world" as a whole, and even if
    it did, it's not a "real world" ideal I'd care to see perpetuated.  
    

    This hazing and proving seems to be a part of human nature. Certainly
    while studying anthropolgy you read through reams of material on
    cultures that have initiation rites for those entering adulthood. I
    suspect that initially the greek societies were used for initiating the
    children of the upper classes into the world they were to inherit.

    I once read an interesting article that claimed soroities were created
    to make sure the women and men of the elite met the proper marriage
    partners.

    As for myself, I went to a pledge party my freshman year and walked out
    before it was over. It was obvious this was not for hippy chicks and
    wasn't worth my time or theirs. liesl

    re .10, Liesl-
    
    > I suspect that initially the greek societies were used for initiating
    > the children of the upper classes into the world they were to inherit.
    
    This is not at all the way I look at them.  My fraternity was founded
    in 1839, and the eight men who did so had ideas of noble companionship,
    and fidelity to lofty virtuous ideals.  They weren't doing anything for
    their children nor was it done for them.
    
    DougO

    DougO�
    
    Is correct according to my memory of the origin of fraternities.
    Most of them were founded by religious, idealistic young men who
    conceived of the fraternities as a way to study together, improve
    their morals and give service to others.
    
    Bonnie

    At first I wanted to join a sorority because I thought it sounded
    like a fun way to meet people. However at my University
    (Vanderbilt, a private University in the  South), there were many
    more women going through rush than could be accepted.
    We had to fill out forms telling the Occupations of our parents
    what sorority , fraternity they belonged to , and other personal
    details. I found out that most people were selected based on what
    there parents did ($$$), not based on themselves. It was also impossible
    to join a sorority without "recs" (recomendations from Alumni of
    the Sorority). Minorities also had no chance. 
    After learning about this system I no longer wanted to belong to 
    it, but a lot of people at my University place high values on
    belonging to the right sorority (like tri-delt).

    
    I've only had time to read the first 4 responses, and so far,
    you're all WAY off.  I attended the U of Pittsburgh, with
    30,000 other students.  I felt that the best way for me to
    meet and get to know women, (since I was a computer science
    major), was through a sorority.  I joined a sorority my 
    freshman year that prided itself on the differences of its
    members.  We had Moslem, Jewish, Catholic and Protestant 
    women, not to mention the aetheists.  We also did not haze.
    The only thing you could consider close to hazing was the require-
    ments that our pledges had to memorize all of their future sister's
    names and they had to interview every sister.  The purpose of this
    was that they get to know every sorority sister.  
    
    I think that sororities exist to give women a sort-of home
    away from home.  A group of people who would give you unconditional
    love no matter what you did.  It also taught you to give
    love and accept love from many different kinds of women.  
    Personally, I learned how to get along with anyone; not
    to pre-judge people and to support other women.  We protected
    our younger, more inexperienced sisters if/when they drank too
    much.  At any frat parties, I always offered the younger sisters
    a glass of water instead of alcohol if there was a pledge chug.
    I told them to only drink if they wanted to.
    
    These were not acts of a desperate woman trying to "fit in".
    These are the acts of teenagers and young adults trying to
    learn to strech their boundaries and find themselves.
    Fraternities use hazing to bond.  Sororities use talking,
    friendship and acting silly together to bond.  Sometimes
    it's really fun to act like a child with a bunch of other
    women. 
    
    I think that my most fond college memories are of times
    with my sororities.  I don't think I'll ever have the
    privilege of being friends with so many diversified 
    women again.  In a normal life, you just don't have the
    time.  Sororities are an organized way to provide the time
    and environment for HEALTHY, SUPPORTIVE friendships with other
    women.   
    
    I don't think that I or any of my Delta Zeta sisters deserve
    to be criticized for wanting to have a big family.
    
    Rachael
    

    I've often wished that when I was at Purdue, I had joined a sorority. 
    I went through rush (and got an invite from Delta Zeta, I think) but my
    then boyfriend, later husband, now ex, convinced me not to pledge.  The
    houses I was interested in didn't *do* hazing.  They also weren't into
    partying, drinking, or being 'socially correct'.  Instead, their pledge
    requirements and house interests centered around service to the house 
    and the campus, getting to know the rest of the sisters and your pledge 
    class in particular.
    
    While on campus, it would have provided a place where I was important
    as an individual rather than as a number, in a way that even the
    smaller dorms couldn't do.  After leaving school, it would have
    provided a link back to the campus (I know the whereabouts of *no one*
    from either college I attended except my ex) and a way to meet other
    women of similar background as I journeyed around the country.
    
    Oh well - if that was the worst mistake I'd ever made in my life, I'd
    be on easy street today. :-)
    
    Alison

    Alison, I think the real question is whether or not you can be forgiven
    for having attended Purdue.  :-)
    
    -- Mike (Indiana University, class of 1981)

    Mike -
    
    I'll forgive you if you'll forgive me :-)
    
    Alison

    
    i've never forgiven myself.
    (iu school of music, mm 1982)
    

    Well, my 3 and a half years there were the best 3 and a half years of
    my life.  So there.
    
    -- Mike

    OH NO! And I got my associates from I.U. small world guys. :*) liesl

    thanks for all your replies to the basenote.
    
    .14 and .15:
    
    Your experiences sound great!  They are what I wish all sororities
    could be.  I take back any slur, intentional or not, that may have come
    your way.  Your sororities' initiation process sounds much more like
    what I described as desirable aims and methods than those I have been
    able to observe.  I suppose, like news items, the sensational and
    extreme instances of hazing are what make conversation.
    
    Thanks for posting your positive experiences here.
    
    Sara
    

    I also must apologise if my remarks on 'joiners' inadvertently
    insulted those who had good experience with these organizations.
    My remarks should properly have been adressed to that small
    group who are so desperate to join that they endure what is,
    in my mind, demeaning and harmful hazing. (And the few groups
    that still indulge in this moronic activity.)

    Dana

    Thanks for the apology and I'm glad I could explain
    the other side.
    
    I forgot to mention a couple of other things that us
    Delta Zeta's did and still do.  (Actually every sorority
    includin Tri-Deltas did this.)  We all had a national philan-
    thropy.  Ours was the Gaulludet School for the Deaf in DC,
    (oops I spelled it wrong I think).  We also made contributions
    to many other organizations for the deaf.  As a college, we
    all had Greek Week where the winning sorority and fraternity
    were the one's who'd raised the most for the philanthropy of
    the school's choice.  Then in our sorority, we had chapter 
    competitions with awards going to the chapter who'd raised the
    most money for the deaf.  As an alumni member, I collect Campbell's
    labels for underpriveleged kids' schools and we sell magazine
    subscriptions.  For awhile, we sold Tupperware.  All these profits
    go to the deaf.
    
    Also, DZ's across the country have a policy that any sister from
    any chapter is always welcomed at the sorority house.  So,
    you can travel fairly safely and several women did.  You also
    never leave a sister or pledge drunk somewhere.
    
    Well, I think that's it.  I don't mean to push DZ.  I think that
    most sororities are similar and any sorority can vary from 
    chapter to chapter.  
    
    Rachael

    
    I always felt that the sororities at my college were kind of snobby
    (maybe only to some of the women there, but I never felt welcome as a
    friend or a potential sister).  So I became a "little sister" at
    a fraternity (this was the kind of fraternity that had little sisters
    who were FRIENDS of the house, some fraternities call brothers'
    girlfriends' "sisters" - but primarily these were independent women who
    were considered friends of the house....).  Interestingly enough, the
    three sororities at my college had actually gotten their start as
    groups of "little sisters" of the fraternities (the college went co-ed
    in 1968, so this is a fairly recent development).  
    
    There are good fraternities/sororoties (as far as respecting personal
    rights, hazing, groupthink events of random mindlessness, etc.) and bad
    ones.  Every fraternity/sorority had its "thing" (basketball, football,
    sports, community service, preppies, druggies....etc) - and I'm sure
    people pick depending on their own particular interests.  Wonderfully
    enough, some of the fraternities at the college this year have decided
    NOT to rush freshman in the typical "pledge" way - no pledging, no
    hazing, makes life much easier and feels more constructive to the
    brotherhood and the college....
    
    I'm still a "little sister", and I still sometimes go back to visit for
    parties or events or whatever.  It's a good feeling to be welcomed
    again, and make new friends.  
    
    -Jody
    

    As some of the responses have stated, mosst sororities and fraternaties
    do nto "haze" anymore...of curse, when I was (and still am) a Chi Delt,
    there was one frat that always did the stupidest pledge night
    antics...the TKE's...but the worst that can be said about them is that
    they tried to soap and toilet aper the largest, tallest building in
    Cleveland, the TERMINAL TOWER...on stilts....one of the pledges broke
    his leg that night, but it was from sheer stupiddity...he slipped on
    the soap!
    
    All in all, I think being in a sorority so far away from home was
    wonderful for me.  I too learned how to deal with all sorts of people,
    and can make the best perogies in NY (a polish type of crepe filled
    with potatoe or saurkraut)!
    
    JayCee