Conference turris::womannotes-v3

      I don't think you have anything to worry about.  I have been playing
    D & D for over 7 years now and consider myself to be well'adjusted.
    
      I believe this game has a bad rep soley based on a few over publi-
    cized cases of teen-agers taking their own lives in some twisted
    idea that it's all make believe.  If someone is going to go this
    far on something, there was something wrong with them in the first
    place.
    
      As for the costume bit, that is extreme, but I remember when I
    first started I too dressed the part.  This usually only last a
    while; soon the roleplaying becomes the main thing, not the costume.
    
      I have met some great friends through this game.  People from
    all walks of life.  Their one common denominator seems to be a
    great imagination.
    
      All the folks I play with are also very intelligent and usually
    in well paying responsible jobs.
    
      I think this is a great way to meet new people.  
    
      If he continues to play you might ask him car pool with one of
    his new friends.
    
      As for the tardiness; well sometimes things just get too *good*
    to leave.  I don't, however, see why he can't simply call you to
    tell you he'll be late.  That's not a matter of adult responsibil-
    ity, it's a matter or common courtesy for the other people you
    share a house with.
    
    
                        La Wana

    Derek,
    
    There are a number of active noters that write and enact entire weekend
    role playing events. They have all struck me as remarkably sane and
    normal people the rest of the time!
    
    (hi Ann :-) )
    
    Bonnie

    
    >Personally I totally dislike any of this stuff (I even dislike most
    >sci-fi!).
    
    What is the root of your dislike?
    Is it just not to your personal taste, or do you have other concerns?
    
    'gail

    I think fantasy role playing is a great way to create new leadership
    skills, and an enjoyable way to enjoy different sides of your
    personality, increase team abilities, and have a generally good time. 
    I have played/written both dungeons & dragons type scenarios plus
    real-time real-space fantasy role-playing (like murder mystery weekend
    style things, only different types of plots in the D&D realm).  I find
    that many brilliant people like to play these games (I truly believe
    the harder you work, the harderyou play - the balance is inevitable)...
    
    It's a great creative outlet, helps you do problem-solving, and
    introduces you to cool people.  The books (Mazes and Monsters, and
    Hobgoblin to some extent) have given the game a bad rap.  It is NOT
    satanism, and many of the people (nay, 99. 99999% of the people who
    play) do NOT get it confused with reality, nor do with worship the
    deities or believe they are magical or whatever - they know where the
    boundary is.....).  I've been playing for 10 years, and I'm still
    somewhat normal ;).....
    
    If his staying out late upsets you, have him bring the gamers home -
    watch the way they play, see the fun they have, maybe take up a
    character yourself if you have concerns....it's clean fun in many
    respects....
    
    
    
    -Jody

    see also:
    
    ERIS::FRP
    (fantasy role playing notesfile)
    
    TOOK::UU
    102 - fantasy role playing
    
    -Jody
    

    i can't leave this one alone.....
    
    yet another gamer in the conference crawls out from under a....from
    under a.....uh.....where have i been hiding?
    
    anyways.....i don't know about your son, but before i got into gaming,
    i was quite an introverted person.  getting into D&D, i started meeting
    other people like myself (imagine that, i found friends!), and i
    started speaking out for myself (started with my character, but crept
    into realtime as well), and like others have mentioned, this was a
    great outlet for some pent up creativity.
    
    as for dressing up for the game......i would think it is just for
    fun.  one doesn't have to dress up......it just adds to the enjoyment.
    although i must confess that the only times i dressed up were around
    halloween time.
    
    anyways.......instead of worrying about your son, try to enjoy what he
    is doing.  ask him about the game....what sort of character does he
    have, what has the group done, what are the groups goals.....i could
    talk for hours about the games i have played.....who knows, you might
    get wrapped up in it, and eagerly await the next installment.....
    
    oh yeah, you said you didn't really enjoy that stuff.  oh well.
    
    jonathan (a/k/a Jazzack, a/k/a Goodgulf, a/k/a Hogan, a/k/a Hanz N.
    Franz, a/k/a Lee Wei.....)
    

    for stories of games people have played, check out:
    
    ERIS::CHRONICLES
    
    all sorts of role playing games are covered....D&D, science fiction,
    mysteries (in current world settings)....

>    Given the choice, I would actively discourage him from joining. 
 
Why?  I really don't understand.  I joined the "TV" club in High School
(we procuded a closed-circuit news show for the people in the school).
My mother doesn't personally enjoy TV, nor does she enjoy many of the
activities I enjoy, but she never forbid me from doing them just because
they weren't *her* cup of tea.  In fact, I can't even imagine why she
would?  Are you trying to shape you son so that he is a carbon copy of
yourself?
    
>    Am I right or wrong?
 
Frankly?  Wrong.  Your son is 19 and had ever right to make decisions about
how he wants to spend his free time.  He is old enough to have tastes you
do not share.  What do you care?  Fortunately for all concerned he has
chosen a pastime which is harmless and relatively inexpensive, what's the
problem?

As for the lateness, well if he promised he'd be back at a given time, and
wasn't, that seems like a different issue, more one of responsibility than
the nature of his activities.  (Although I must say that 19 seems a little
old to have a curfew.)

D!

    As the mother of a 16-year-old, my opinion is that:
    
    1) No, you shouldn't try to discourage him -- he's old enough to
       make his own decisions about this.  Unless you have reason to
       think he's psychologically unstable, it should be a beneficial
       experience for him.  From my perspective it's not much different
       than doing an ongoing drama without a stage or an audience --
       would it bother you if he had joined the drama club?
    
    2) You shouldn't feel any obligation to share his interests.  He's
       almost a grown man, with his own tastes and preferences, and
       there's no reason why you have to share them.  It's a normal,
       if difficult, part of the separation process.  I already see it
       in my daughter -- in fact, I'll swear some of the things she
       likes, she picked strictly because she knew I don't like them and
       wouldn't want to be involved!
    
    --bonnie

    re:.8
    
    It's not clear to me that the time business is a "curfew" so much
    as a courtesy of letting the parent know when he'll be home. For
    as long as I lived in my parents' house, I did the same.
    
    As far as the topic at hand goes...
    
    I'm speaking as one who, though he likes sf and fantasy in general,
    does not participate in role-playing games, nor ever will short
    of someone pointing a gun at a loved one's head and threatening
    to pull the trigger unless I play. The reasons are irrelevant,
    having everything to do with me and nothing to do with rpgaming
    itself (no, don't anyone ask, even by mail, because I don't really
    feel like going into it).
    
    Despite this rather strong aversion to it, I see nothing inherently
    wrong with it as a hobby, and I don't see any good reason why you
    should feel a need to discourage him from participating. At *most*,
    if you feel really strongly about the matter, you might want to
    discuss it with him, ask him exactly what goes on in a gaming session
    so that *you* have a clear idea of what it is you object to, and
    then explain to him why you feel the way you do. But to actively
    discourage him may result in your alienating him.
    
    These considerations aside, I will add my voice to those who say
    that at 19, he's a legal adult and is entitled to make his own
    decisions about what he chooses to do with his time and money.
    
    --- jerry

    Derek,
    
    There are a few things to consider before opposing this hobby.
    
    First, most of the bad things you've heard about role playing games
    have been exagerated, sensationalized, and even made up.  Second,
    if you compare (that most sensation statistic) the suicide rate
    attributed to RPGs (a dozen in twenty years?) with that attributed
    to participation in sports, you'll quickly pull your children out
    of competitive sports. :-}
    
    Third, does he become easily obsessed?  Ah! If he does, this could
    be bad news, and you should warn him that there are problems in becoming
    identified with a character who is then killed.  (This is why I
    retired Pfusand at the first opportunity.)
    
    Fourth, what sort of game is it?  Is it a Monty Haul game, where
    the players are just trying to get as much loot as possible?   Is it
    a game where the GM (Games Master) is trying to kill as many players
    as possible?  If so, a condescending smile and a "You can do better
    than that." is a permissable response.  (The question of, Is it a
    level-based or skilled-based game? gets into `religious' matters.)
    
    In general, however, I can't see any harm in letting someone fit
    more than one life into a lifetime.  In fact, frequently `getting
    into a role' means doing some research.  I've studied Italian,
    the Secret Service, early automobiles, Shakespeare's life, and
    invented a religion, a culture, a base-five numbering system, and
    expanded someone else's invented language.  ("Ann overprepares
    for these things.")
    
    						Ann B.

    G'day,
     Thanks folks for your comments and reassurances.
    
    
    What really were the issues?
    
    No, I do not want him to be a copy of me (heaven forbid! ;-) ).
    
    He is _already_ aware that he is free to make whatever choices he cares
    to, and that I , or his mother, are there if he cares to ask for
    advice.
    
    Why do I dislike most sci-fi (and particularly monsters and dungeons and
    such stuff)? Dunno. I guess I live in this world, and the other sort
    never enters my imagination...
    
    Yes I had heard stories.. and its funny=strange (to me) how there was an
    instant disclaimer before the issue was raised. I appreciate sport may
    be more physically damaging, but I would venture to suggest, less
    potentially mentally so. (I know that's a thin ice statement, but I'm
    looking in a _very_ narrow definition and not wanting to consider the
    'what if I fail' aspects etc etc )
    
    
    Religious issues? Well yes - possibly... It seems a thin line between d
    & d and the occult... its all to easy to bring ouija boards into things
    like this, maybe? I guess I do not understand the game. Frankly I do
    not particularly like chess either, although I appreciate its basic
    history, and the mental stimulus it provides... I would not object to
    his playing chess.
    
    As to his staying out late. This is something that is out of
    character.... He has always been free to negotiate an 'in-time'. He has
    without fail kept to it, or notified if there was a problem. Indeed,
    this particular day, he phoned to say he would be late. - By an hour, rather
    than 3 hours. It seemed that the first time he gets involved in this
    game, he is induced to stay late. Apparently for a photo session...
    
    He does not, incidently, have a curfew. He does have an agreed return
    home time. If this were to be 6 am the next day, so be it (though I
    might be wanting to know more of where, and who etc ) . He does have
    his uni studies to consider, and we both know that if he gets tired, he
    is unapproachable.... _and_ his studies suffer. 
    
    And he (IMHO) spends too much time with his choose your own adventure
    stories than his studies..
    
    As to the game type, I shall have to find out more...
    
    and frankly, if he wants to dress up, I'd rather he joined the local
    amateur dramatic society.
    
    Thanks again for the replies. 
    
    Seems I shall have to stop letting my predjudices show, and find out
    more..
    
    derek
     

    in re .13
    
    Derek,
    
    You and I have exchanged mail off and on for years since we first
    met in Joyoflex.  One thing I know about you is that you are very
    heavily into scouting. To my mind, going off into the woods and 
    living more or less off the land is a form of fantasy role playing.
    It seems to me that what your son is doing (without the moving out
    into the landscape that is necessary for scouting) is similar to
    the sort of thing that you have raised him to do. To my mind going
    off into the backlands and living in a primitive style, or to going 
    off into the woods and living off the land as a scout, or buying a 
    farm in the country and making a go of it, has a kinship
    with acting out a role in an interactive drama  ...the big differience
    is that you did and we did, i.e. real life, is harder work, but what your
    son is doing is more creative in many ways.
    
    Bonnie

    
    Occult? Good grief!
    To the best of my knowledge (and I used to game at University) there is
    no earthly (or unearthly ;-) reason why ouija board or anything even
    vaguely associated with occult practice should have anything to do with
    gaming.
    That's like saying that reading about the "bad guys" in "Lord of the
    Rings" could turn your son into a Satanist.
    Sheesh.
    
    He was three hours late for the first time?
    Maybe he just really got interested into it, especially if he's just
    started doing it? It's really absorbing.....the first time I played
    Dungeons on a terminal I forgot the time, missed my bus home, and
    still felt exhilarated......
    
    I really do feel that you're reading far too much into this. Gaming
    is not a strange, sinister activity as you seem to believe, and you
    suggested yourself that maybe you don't "understand that game".
    Why don't you ask your son about it, or even go along to a session
    and see what actually happens?
    (Um...maybe it would be respectful of your son's personal space if you
    went along to a group other than his? They all do much the same kind
    of stuff, in my experience.....)
    
    'gail
    
    
    

    'gail,
    
    You say "[Gaming groups] all do much the same kind of stuff" ?!
    That's a statement to take umbrage with.  :-)
    
    Derek,
    
    Oh, if you're principally upset because he estimated he'd be one
    hour late and he was three, don't be.  Nineteen year old people
    simply do not have the experience required to estimate how long it
    takes to futz around with a never-previously-done activity that requires
    gathering arcane equipment together and co�rdinating the actions
    of a bunch of very individual individuals, such as taking pictures
    of young people in fancy costumes, NOT ONE of whom is willing to
    admit that he (or she) is vain enough to actually want to look
    good for the camera.  I like to think that I'd have made a guess
    of three hours, but I have (gasp!) nearly twenty years experience
    of watching chaos-order relationships.
    
    						Ann B.

     
    Re -1
    
    Ann....
    Just trying to keep it simple at this stage.....
    I do understand why umbrage could be caused at this statement,
    but I'd be pressed to explain it in under 800 words ;-)
    'gail

    Re .0: OK, I can understand why you are concerned. After all, what sort
    of people gather to put on funny outfits and spend hours making up
    stories? [No, I'm not talking about going on a fishing trip! ;-)]
    
    I must confess that I'm a pro-gamer, having spent many, many enjoyable
    hours lost in various worlds of make-believe. I was in my late 20's
    before I started gaming, and even then I became rather fanatic about it
    for the first few years; I can only imagine how overboard I'd have gone
    if I'd discovered gaming when I was in college. It's a fascinating
    pastime that can easily consume as much of your time as you're willing
    to give it, and in that sense, it's perfectly reasonable for a parent
    to be concerned about their kids' involvement. But the problem isn't
    usually the subject matter of the game itself, but the participants'
    attitude towards it. I don't believe that gaming is any more likely to
    cause mental or emotional harm than any other activity in which a
    person becomes heavily involved.
    
    I'll add my vote to the suggestions that you be open about it, and
    possibly attend a session (if your son is willing) so you can see what
    goes on. Most of the games I've played in must have looked rather
    boring to outsiders; a half-dozen people sitting on the floor peering
    at a hastily-sketched map, debating over where to position a miniature
    figure, rolling dice intently, and now and then stating a character
    action: "I'm going to break the door down!" "Hey, wait, I just started
    a spell! You'll get in the - oops, sorry about that..." "Okay, where's
    the healer?" "Never mind that, where's the pizza?"
    
    [Ah, the good old unsophisticated days! Later games tended to include
    dialog like "But, Lerin, we *must* travel to the Far North;
    O'Ferric's spirit must be restored to his body so that he can once
    again wield the Foehammer!" Or "But, Marcus, we *must* travel to the
    East; the Chosen One's forces must be stopped!" Or "But, Revel, we
    *must* travel to the South..." Well, you get the idea!]
    
    To my way of thinking, any activity can become a problem if it's
    pursued obsessively, and from what I've seen, gaming is no more (or
    less) likely to cause this than anything else. As long as your son
    doesn't start having problems - neglecting his studies or chores, that
    kind of thing - I'd say you have nothing to worry about. But, by all
    means, keep the communication lines open. [And if you would like more
    specific examples of what goes on at a typical game, feel free to send
    me mail.]
    
    -b

    
    Some of you are missing what I think is Derek's main point (after
    reading his second posting).  He doesn't sound as concerned about
    gaming so much as he is about his son's studies suffering and his
    son's disregard for his family by coming in much later than he said.
    
    So just forget that it's gaming.  Substitute any activity with the
    same results (suffering studies and disregard for family concerns
    about time coming in).
    
    Derek, I would say that as far as you are offering support for your
    son's studies (tuition, living expenses, whatever), you *do* have
    a right to set some guidelines about studies (e.g, if he doesn't
    maintain a certain GPA, you won't pay the next semester).  You do
    need to set guidelines if it's becoming a problem, and I can understand
    your discomfort with doing so since your son's been so good about
    things up until now.  And try not to mention gaming when setting the
    guidelines with him.
    

    thanks for saying that in .19......
    
    yeah, i was getting distracted by what was said about gaming,
    and based on the second posting, gaming really is NOT the issue,
    time management and communication are the issues.
    
    to me, gaming looks like a new activity that a young person
    is trying to fit into an already filled calender, and a parent
    is becoming concerned that important (to him) areas are going
    to lose out in terms of time.
    
    am i close?
    
    jonathan

    G'day,
     I think the last replies have gotten close. What I suspect (and see I
    am not sure where my disquiet lies) is that it is a use of time contra
    to what I believe to be important in an area that I don't understand
    too well. If he was out drinking.. I would know what to say, if he were
    out with girls, again no problem (I should I suppose add ;-) and talk
    of misspent youth) but when it comes to spending time in something I
    see as 'wasted effort' then it becomes unsettling. (thats *not* to say
    the other activities are or not ).
    
    I have taken encouragement from the replies. Thanks. On being told he
    was considered imaginative, he visibly brightened, and volunteered info
    about the games they play... apparently if they think of a novel escape
    from a situation, _Then_ they can increase in intelligence points....
    (what they do to increase wealth was not disclosed) they are not into
    games involving just killing monsters (cut and slash *-| ) rather a
    more intellectual arena.
    
    So I guess I will have to grin and bear it somewhat and keep on with
    the quiet reminders about priorities.. I think he will wear that ok.
    
    Thanks again
    derek

    a not-so-subtle hint to show where your priorities are.....
    
    ask him about his recent gaming activities, then when he is 
    about to start, interrupt him and ask if anything else has
    happened at school...tests or papers...just so that while you
    are listening to the tales of adventure, you can rest assured
    that the real world has remained just that.
    
    then....after you hear about the real world....try not to yawn
    too much, okay?