Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    r .0 In some moods I'd say this was a redundancy...

re. -1

Putting them in public office.

    Actually the rats in Boston are going to be a serious
    problem when they start to depress the Central Artery.
    There have been studies and proposals on what to do when 
    the construction disturbs all the rats that inhabit the
    tunnels and basements of Boston.
    
    Or were you referring to the rats who wear clothes and
    make statements on TV or plunder S&Ls??
    
    Pat 

    We had a net work of rat holes in our chicken house years ago..
    and still find them around the house occasionally, mostly near the
    compost heap..
    
    (ever heard chewing noises from the middle of a compost heap?)
    
    But our cats are able to keep the varmits in line.
    
    Bonnie

re: .4
    
<    Actually the rats in Boston are going to be a serious
<    problem when they start to depress the Central Artery.
    
    I thought they were going to dump them in Boston Harbor to make an
    island?
    
    --bonnie

    
    
    When this topic was opened...I don't know...Maybe it's just me,
    but I guess I thought it was going to be about something else *other*
    than real honest to goodness nasty little critters called "rats".
                      
        
    Yuk!
     

    
    oh good! yet another topic i can next unseen.
    

    Actually, this is the funniest topic I've seen here in a while!
    The digressions are wonderful!
    

    Well, I've actually had personal experience with 4-legged rats!
    
    When I was in Korea, one ate through the insulation on our pole heater,
    and when the temperature dropped, the heater came on, causing
    interesting electrical activity.  Luckily someone was still awake.
    
    We put out rat poison, which the housemaid found to be very amusing,
    knowing, I guess, that killing a few rats wasn't going to make a
    difference.  Anyhow, we had dead and dying rats outside the house for a
    while.
    
    Briana

    One of the things I like about Massachusetts is that we 
    have neighborhoods.  Every year someone on our street
    throws a party or picnic for the neighborhood.  Everyone
    on the street is invited, especially newcomers whom noone
    knows.  We all bring goodies.
    
    Some years there has been neighborhood Christmas caroling.
    Singers in each house join the group after being serenaded.
    
    People in my neighborhood know the names of each other's 
    children and dogs.  When we have one of our frequent power
    outages, those who still have water or heat are willing
    to offer help to those who are in dire need.  While I was
    at work, some friends came to borrow my terminal.  A
    neighbor casually wandered over to be sure I had given
    permission, and told me that night what she saw.  It's 
    comforting to know that my neighbors notice when people
    are removing expensive electronic equipment from my house.
    
    Another time, as soon as I arrived home, the children next
    door came rushing over with a kitten that was choking.  
    I drove them to the vet, who saved the kitten.    
        
    I have sisters in two other states, and they don't seem to
    know any neighbors, even after many years in the same place.
    They get together with friends (so do I), but there is no 
    feeling of local community.
    
    Pat

    
    re: -.1...
    
    where do you live???  I don't know my neighbors names,
    their kids (if they have any) or anything else.  No block
    parties in my neck of the woods!
    
    But then, that's why I LIKE IT!!  I came from small town USA, 
    and HATED knowing my neighbors, and having them know all about
    me!!  give me privacy any day!
    
    .....
    
    back to the rat topic.  Has anyone decided what Boston
    will do once the tunnels/artery start being dug?  I can
    well imagine the millions of critters it will scare up to
    the streets!  hmmm maybe I won't take the subway in town
    after that! :-)  :-)
    
    deb
    

    re .12, I don't know any of my neighbors either!  I've lived there
    since November and I don't even know what one single person who lives
    on my street looks like!
    
    Lorna
    

    The rats are such an issue that even 20/20 did a show on them
    not long ago.
    
    Oh I don't know; would they be so awful if they had long bushy
    tales and big brown eyes?  :-)
    

    Don't rush it!  After you've lived there for three or four years,
    you'll know each other's faces and cars.  After five or six years,
    you might say hello.  But you wouldn't want to rush into an
    acquaintance before you were all ready for it.
    
    --bonnie

    I had friendly neighbors in Natick and again in Harvard.
    Bonnie Randall is right, it took time.  I lived nine years
    in Natick and have been 10 years in my present house.
    Then, being a small-town type myself, I tend to go introduce
    myself to new neighbors, or say HI! while walking the dog.

    Back to the *real* rat topic.  I get a few of the four
    legged kind in my chicken house.  Fortunately one of my cats 
    is a good ratter.  From what I hear about Boston rats, mine
    are smaller and less aggressive.  I figure that with all the
    pollutants, the weaker rats died out and a new species may
    be emerging that thrives in unsafe conditions.  Maybe even
    poison won't kill Boston super-rats.
      
    Rats as a group learn quickly.  If you start poisoning rats
    in a large population, the ones who don't happen to eat the
    poison learn to avoid the poisoned bait.  I don't believe
    for a minute that all the rats followed the Pied Piper into the
    ocean.  Maybe the first few hundred, until the ones behind
    said to each other "this is dumb".  The Pied Piper must have
    been leading lemmings!
    
    Pat
    

    I've never seen a rat in Boston, but when I lived in an apartment
    complex on Rt. 20, in Marlboro, I saw a big, fat scarey rat there one
    day (along with the only cockroaches I've ever seen in my life).  So
    residents of Marlboro, MA, beware!
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: -.1
    
    Hey Pat!  You lived in Natick?  Where?  I spent the first 23 years of
    my life there, and my parents are still in the same house.  When they
    die, my brother and I will inherit the house, and you bet I'm buying 
    him out.  We knew ALL our neighbors, and *some*one was constantly at
    someone *else's* house.
    
    Any way.  I like Massachusetts.  After all the time it took me to
    learn how to spell it, I am not about to move away now.  I lived in
    New Hampshire for a while, and listened to everyone crow about not 
    paying state income tax.  Meanwhile, I worked at the only hospital in
    the area, which had only *37* beds, almost half of which were
    maternity.  If I wanted to see a movie I had to drive at least 25 miles
    each way, to either Nashua or Merrimack.  God knows, and never told me,
    if there was any live theatre in the area.  Etcetera.  I think I'll 
    stay here.
    
    Besides, I don't remember everyone leaving the city of New York when
    it declared bankruptcy.
    
    E Grace

    How did I get started on this rat-tail?
    
    Anyway, crossing the street between govt. center and Faneuil Hall
    last summer, there was a rat, that was so big, cars were stopping
    for it and letting it cross.  In daylight no less, really.
    
    

    E Grace, Milford , N.H. has very nice live theatre. At least I hope
    they still do. I haven't heard if they got enough patrons and customers
    to save it. I know they were in trouble but maybe if we all pray and
    support it maybe, maybe,
    
    Phil(who sends donations but can't attend because he won't walk the 20
    miles from Hudson to Milford and won't break down and buy a car or get
    his license back)
    

    Thanks Phil, but I came back to Massachusetts about 14 years ago.
    
    Oh my God!  FOURTEEN years ago?  Those really *were* grey hairs!
    
    E Grace

Re: "community" in Massachusetts

In other states I've lived in (Vermont, Kentucky, Florida), my
work, shopping, social life, etc. all pretty much revolved
around one area. Since I moved to Massachusetts three years ago,
though, it seems so different....

Seems like lots of people live in one town, work
in a different town 30 to 60 minutes away, shop in a
another town 20 minutes away in a different direction,
get their hair done in yet a different town, go to church....
go to movies....hang out with so-and-so.....etc etc etc, all
in different towns. Seems like this lifestyle would make it
hard to get to know neighbors or feel much of a sense
of community.

I assume that 15 or 20 years ago life in the metro west
area was more centered around one town and the towns that
border it. Is that true? If so, do any long-time residents of towns
like Stow, Maynard, Chelmsford, Framingham, etc. have any comments
on this trend? Has it affected life in your town very much?
For the better or worse? Are residents less involved with each
other and in town affairs today?

Kathy

    re: rats
    
    Steven King has a wonderfully creepy disgusting story about the
    rats that live beneath an old mill.  I think it was in Maine, not
    Mass, though.
    
    re: community
    
    I think community is just defined differently -- in a social
    rather than a geographical way.  Most people have plenty of
    friends who will come to dinner, share events and traumas, and so
    on.  It's just that most of them don't live on the same block.
    
    --bonnie

    
    Lowell, Ma, also has a very nice theater (not too far from Nashua), 
    The Merrimack Repertory.
    
    I hated commuting to work, commuting to friends, commuting to do the
    shopping.  Being at "home" felt like staying in a motel (the rented 
    furniture contributed to that feeling, too); I didn't know any of my
    neighbors.  Now that I've moved to the same town where I work (even
    though the circumstances that brought me here were painful), I like it
    much better.  My frienda haven't all moved to the same town, and I
    still have to drive to get to the doctor's and go to the movies, but 
    my life feels less fragmented than it did.  I know the people who live 
    in the 3 other apartments in my house, though I'm only friendly with 1 
    of them.  I say hello to my neighbors and they say hello back.
    
    CQ

    Massachusetts is a fine state, but one problem I do have is that the
    license plates there are boring.  Not only that, but they look too much
    like New Hampshire license plates.  I think that the least neighboring
    states can do is get their act together and make their license plates
    more distinguishable.

    -- Mike

    Mike, our license plate are being changed, probably because "they"
    knew you didn't like them. (*8  Commercial vehicles and vanity plates
    are already being issued in the new red, white and blue color schemes.
    
    'kay?
    
    E Grace

    E Grace,
    
    If you grew up in Natick, you not only learned to spell
    Massachusetts, you probably learned to pronounce Lake
    Cochituate!  You can't waste that knowledge.
    
    I lived off Route 135, nearly into Framingham.  There
    was a power line right-of-way at the end of my street, and
    a large abandoned farm at the end of the cross street.  
    I used to walk my dog and pick flowers in the woods and fields.  
    It was possible to walk to Sterling on those paths, without 
    crossing a road.
    
    Then the farm became cluster housing, traffic picked up, 
    and it became impossible to cross Rte 9 at Speen Street
    (before the reconstruction of that interchange).  I moved.
    
    I am reminded that I like the open space in Massachusetts,
    not only parks and conservation land, but abandoned farms,
    green strips along highways, and other places for walking 
    and birding.  I don't like the way these places turn into 
    developments, especially without any real planning for the 
    traffic and other disruption.

    Pat

    So... how *does* one pronounce Lake Cochituate?
    
    aq
    

>        So... how *does* one pronounce Lake Cochituate?

You'll know when you have it right, because somebody will say "Gesundheit".

Cochituate...I have heard it pronounced (phonetically) as:
co - chit - choo - it.  Correct me if I'm wrong.

D!

    When I was born my parents lived in Cochituate.  Cochituate is part of 
    the town of Wayland.  Like Saxonville is part of Framingham.  There is 
    Lake Cochituate and Dudley Pond.  Middle class folks from Boston built 
    cottages there, then these cottages were winterized and the community 
    developed.  It had a large French Canadian population and when I was a 
    youngster (many years ago) St. Zepherin's church spoke French at all but 
    one Mass.
    
    I have often thought that I would have had a happier childhood had my
    family stayed in Cochituate.  Both my paternal and maternal
    grandparents lived there as well as many aunts and uncles.  
    
    I brought Mother to Cochituate this weekend to visit Dad's grave.  My
    daughter was with us.  Judie had located a snapshot of me at 4.  I
    pointed out the spot on the playground that it was taken.  It was the
    same view!
    
    I digress....sorry
    
    
    

    You apologize for digressing in a RATHOLE note!  This is carrying,
    um, feminine self-effacement (or whatever) too far!
    
    							Ann B.

    re .30, .31:  And the accent's on the second syllable.
    

    re .22, Yes, I think neighborhoods have changed in the past 25 yrs. in
    the way you mention.  I think the fact that most women now work,
    whereas in our parents generation most women didn't work, is a big
    contributing factor.  When most women were housewives and stayed home
    they all got to know each other through various community activities. 
    I grew up in Upton, Mass., one town over from where I'm living now, and
    when I was a kid in the 50's and 60's we knew all our neighbors. 
    Hardly any of the women in the neighborhood worked away from home, and
    many of the men didn't commute as far to work as many people do now. 
    For one thing, before Rt. 495 was built this area was much more remote
    than it is now.  It was a very rural area back in the '50's and early
    60's, a different world really, and I would love to be able to go back
    for a day and see it again as it was then.  I remember one afternoon
    when my mother commented that 3 cars had gone by the house in only half
    an hour!  That seemed like a lot of traffic before our road became the
    shortcut from Rt. 140 to Rt. 495!
    
    It also amazes me when I think about the amount of housing developments
    that have been built in Upton, and especially Milford, Mass., in my
    lifetime.  I think the number of homes in Milford must have doubled in
    the past 25 yrs.  It is sad to me to see places that were woods, fields
    and old farm houses changed into housing developments.  Some of them
    are built in woods and field that I played in as a kid, and some of
    them in old parking spots I frequented as a young adult, and I
    sometimes really feel a strong sense of resentment towards whoever is
    living in those houses now.
    
    Lorna
    

    RE: .36
    
    I don't know.  Most, though not all, of the women in my neighborhood
    worked outside the home when I was growing up.  I think it might
    have to do with the physical design of the neighborhood.  I lived in
    what would be considered a "closed" development.  There were about
    100 homes.  It just seems that we all knew each other.
    
    My brother lives in Franklin now, in a house he and his wife bought
    ~1.5 years ago.  They already know most of their neighbors.  Maybe
    it has to do with having kids.  The kids all play together, and the
    parents meet the other parents?  I don't know.  
    
    I do know, however, that I still know most of the people at my parent's
    end of the street I grew up on (and where they still live), and I
    moved 10 years ago.  
    
    E Grace

    There's a certain amount of truth to women working at home being a
    big factor in building the older style of neighborhood.  The women
    in our physical neighborhood  who are at home most of the time
    seem to know more of the neighbors, and know more about them, than
    I do.  And now that I'm home part time, I know more than I did
    even a couple of months ago.
    
    Commuting does have a lot to do with it, too, I suspect.  We live
    and work in Nashua -- 12 minutes to work if there's no traffic and
    we don't have to stop for the baby.  Some of our neighbors are on
    the road for 75 minutes twice a day!  Besides the exhaustion and
    the frustration, we have 2 1/2 more hours to spend with the kids,
    around the house, etc. 
    
    I also suspect that kids have a different perspective on it than
    the adults sometimes, too.  My 6-year-old, who was born and raised
    here, certainly feels like he knows everyone in the neighborhood. 
    I'm the one who feels isolated.  And many of the magazine articles
    and so on from the fifties, when I was a child, talk a lot about
    the isolation felt by mothers of children our age. 
    
    --bonnie

    I too grew up in Natick.  I dont know if this has anything to do with
    the 'community togetherness', but I rememeber going home for lunch. 
    Now all of the kids take a bus, for safety, even if they live 1/2 mile
    away!
    I do not know many neighbors since my lifestyle doesnt allow it.  With
    my hubby and I having had a previous marriages all we seem to do it
    deal with the family stuff.  It takes up alot of time.  
    I can remember my mother having the time to 'garden' or even take a
    walk and say hello to the neighbors.  Im lucky if I get to wash the
    laundry!!
    
    Judy

    Strange topic.
    
    It's really surprising that so many Boston politicians haven't  been
    smart enough (ok, i'm kidding) to figure out that the  Rat "problem"
    really isn't a problem at all.
    
    For  example,  in  Florida, where I lived for 7 months awhile  back,
    they got rid of all the Cockroaches by Advertising !!
    
    What  they  did  was  to  tell  touriste that the "Cucharachas" were
    really Palmetto bugs, and occurred as natural as sand, trees, water,
    and tourists.
    
    Over the years,  the "new" natives learned to accept this definition
    (since it was easier  to  call  them Palmetto bugs than to clean the
    house better).  Our landlady was a terror, and it was a condition of
    residency to allow her to inspect  our  apartment from time-to-time,
    and make suggestions on how to keep the little buggers out, by using
    preventive  cleaning  (it  was  a  real daily chore  to  clean  THAT
    thoroughly), but I didn't mind it.  My SO did most of the work while
    she could.
    
    What we need in Boston, Nasuea NH, etc is a Ne England wide campaign
    to speak to this 'invasion' of Palmetto bugs being brought back from
    Florida by the unwitting Tourists who go there for the Frozen
    Orange Tree Festival (periodiaccally).
    
    The 'staties' could set up check points;  the Airports at Logan I,
    Logan  II  and  Logan  III could set up inspection stations, adn the
    whole campaign could demonstrate  (using clever statistics) how many
    of the bugs came from Florida.
    
    Well, part of this could be an equal campaign to call the Grey Rat
    the "New York City Grey  Chicken",  and  run  constests  of  who can
    prepare the tastiest recipes for their eating pleasure.
    
    
    The city could issue ""New York City Grey Chicken" hunting licenses,
    and issue "specially" adpated weapons and  maps  for 'harvesting' th
    little  critters;    special  interest  groups could  then  Publicly
    Demonstrate against the 'harvest' of these little darlings  (distant
    relatives to the Grey Squirrel, Breeder Rabbits, and Mink.
    
    Clothiers  could  design  special wardrobes, and the "New York  City
    Grey  Chicken"  could  be  exported  to  needier  counries,  such as
    Appalachia, Akansas, and San Francisco.
    
    Well, what do you think ?
    
    Did you really read this far ??
    
    -BobE
    

    .40
    
    :-)  First smile I've had today.
    
    BTW,  my daughter who lives in Boston and her college buddies, call
    the furry critters, chihuahuas (as in little dog, but BIG rat.)
    It seems like there's an awful lot of dog lovers in Boston.
    She says she's learned to live with the Palmetto's; they don't
    eat that much or take up that much apartment space...
    
    Did I mention already that what she did find in an alley not long
    ago (why is she walking through alleys!? argh!) is a real live
    Iguana?  Shiver.  I've lived in the south many years and even
    had a 'pet' armadillo and a lizard under my bed, but  I never
    ran into an Iguana.
    
    Maia
    

   > Did I mention already that what she did find in an alley not long
   >     ago (why is she walking through alleys!? argh!) is a real live
   >     Iguana?  Shiver.
    
    Oh, way cool!  Maybe I'll move to Boston.  Really, an inguana?  Those
    cost a pretty penny in the pet store.  Did she catch it?
    
    Why "shiver"?
    
    D!

    Hi,
    
    Yes, they caught it but one of her friends is keeping it.  I guess
    I 'shivered' because the darn thing isn't furry.
    
    ;-)
    
    Maia
    

    Praise to you daughter and friend(s) for rescuing a critter (of a 
    kind, I must confess, that I'm not fond of).  What in the world was 
    an iguana doing in the alleys of Boston?  Don't they require a more 
    tropical climate?
    
    aq
    

    G'day,
    
    Well not really knowing much about the grey chickens, a great way to
    deal with them is to be found in "King Rat". A story about life in
    Changi gaol during ww2.
    
    
    As for the palmetto bugs.... Take a number of them and wait until they
    are dead (or get their dead bodies..) dry. Take the carcases and place
    in a grinder/pepper mill and grind over fruit. You will find the fruit
    lasts a great deal longer than before..... 
    
    
    
    ;-)
    derek 

    Umm, Derek, this conference probably _isn't_ the place to recommend
    "King Rat" (James Clavell's first novel, pre- "Tai-Pan" and "Shogun")

    >;=)

    Re .45, I should think that, once covered with powdered roach corpses,
    the fruit *would* last longer.  
    
    :)
    aq
    

    .44
    
    Well, it must have escaped somehow; this was not a small one either--
    about a 2 footer or so.  She said that they picked it up and brought
    it in and placed it on the coffee table (new college apartment
    decor?!); and by 10:00 or so they were all spooked because of how
    he just sat there,looking at them.  (He was probably spooked too.)
    
    Anyway, he's got a good home now, in a cage, with all the amenities
    an iguana should want.
    
    Maia
    

    RE .48 >he's got a good home now, in a cage
    
    pardon, my oxymoron alarm just beeped

    Touch�
    
    Being a Greenpeacer, I have to agree with you.  
    
    Does Maude in Harold and Maude say something like, 'how the world
    loves a cage' and then sighs mournfully.
    
    M.
    

    G'day,
    
      <<< Note 375.46 by SA1794::CHARBONND "Fred was right -
    YABBADABBADOOO!" >>>
                    -< possibly the most 'male' book ever written >-
        
    >    Umm, Derek, this conference probably _isn't_ the place to recommend
    >    "King Rat" (James Clavell's first novel, pre- "Tai-Pan" and
    >"Shogun")
        
    
    Point taken..... and you may well be right - but for a text book on
    what to do with them 'chickens'.......... ;-)
    
    
    and maybe the iguana (or Goanna as they are called downunder) should be
    shipped to New Mexico, or Arizona deserts??
    
    
    derek