Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Women don't have power OVER me per se, and I don't feel much physically
    for them speaking only for myself, but I feel power WITH them, and I
    feel energy AROUND them.
    
    I feel there is some peaceful still-waters-run-deep energy around women
    who KNOW what they want, where they're going, and are doing so quietly,
    peacefully, and under their own steam.
    
    These are women I seek to emulate, women I choose as friends and
    mentors, women who complement and decorate my life, women who help make
    me whole and help me realize my own potential....
    
    -Jody
    

    I fear Pascal that the power that you feel comes from your gonads and
    not the women that you look at.

    Jamie.

          
    Sorry but to me, the very phrase "fascinating women" strikes me as just
    one more way to name woman the Other, different, mysterious, not the
    (male) norm...
    
    Kind of like that book that's been around a while and that was popular
    last Christmastime, "What I Know About Women" or something, and all the
    pages are blank...'cause she's forever unknowable, veiled in mystery.
    
    Fooey!
    
    ihmo of course,  :-)
    
    Dorian

    Jody, I agree 100 % to what you are saying, keep going.....pascal

    sorry Jamie, you are wrong...I have gonads, all right but I am speaking
    from something much more powerfull Pascl

    Ah I see, you mean testosterone.

    Jamie.

    
    Perhaps this will help.  Women burp, expell gas and even purge their
    systems.  All the same exact way a man does!  The only difference is
    that some of us are quieter about it.  And we sweat too!
    
    (I couldn't resist getting rid of some of the mystery.)
    
    Being "facinated" by watching women's legs does tend
    to indicate that your interest stems mostly from that male source of
    mysterious, or not-so-mysterious, power.  
    
    In all seriousness, I would be careful about conveying your emotions
    through your eyes.  That could get you in serious trouble at work. 
    It's hard to feel respected intellecutally when some man can't even
    keep his eyes on your face.  If you continually do that to someone who
    works for you, thats REAL trouble.  (I'm not trying to preach.  It's
    just a word for the wise, or the not-so-wise.)
    
    
    Rachael
    

    re .7... or who works with you.
    
    I once worked with a man whose eyes, shall we say, roved over all parts
    of my anatomy except my face.  Sharply calling his attention to the
    technical document we were reviewing (on one occasion) did not work.  I
    finally lost my temper.  I snapped my fingers in front of his face, and
    said "my face is right here.  this is where you should be looking when
    you talk to me."
    
    IMO this boy -- the term is used very deliberately here -- had not
    matured sufficiently to be the ruler of his hormones, instead of the
    other way around.
    
    Take that behavior extracurricular.  Don't do it at work.  If nothing
    else, it could get DEC sued.

    So, you don't like to be watched by men ? let me just have a big
    big big laugh about that ! So, why do I have this strange feeling
    a woman has to look better than another (in an office by working
    together, in anywhere else by the way...) otherwise she doesn't
    feel happy ?
    
    Please, don't tell me you are not proud when you can ATTRACT some
    eyes on your way.
    
    For the rest, I agree, I wouldn't be always watched this way (at
    least not by someone I don't find attractive at all).
    
    But believe me, with people like us, you would have much more chance
    by looking good....This is part of the game we all play...
    
    Anyway, nobody yet seems to have understand that this power is magic
    and that I didn't find a book or a theory that could explain it
    yet. That's the reason why I am adressing my request to women....
    
    I thank you all for the time you spend with me....	Pascal

    Like any other normal human, I want to be attractive.  But I have my
    hormones enough under control that I can restrain that desire,
    difficult tho it is, to appropriate times: at the beach (sigh, I
    remember when!), at a party, at a dance; NOT at work.
    
    I've even had a man, at work, tell me that it was unreasonable of me to
    expect that men could keep their minds on work around women in general
    and me in particular; they just couldn't do it.  I was 7 months
    pregnant at the time.
    
    It doesn't yet seem to have gotten across that these hormones are not
    magic, just hard-wiring for the propagation of the species.  I don't
    deny their power -- I've nursed babies, it just works with no volition
    on my part! amazing! and it's hormonally driven too -- but I do most
    emphatically assert that the unrestrained play of these hormones is,
    ah, likely to produce behavior inappropriate for the workplace.
                                                                         
    next unseen

    re .9, did you say you think that women are not happy unless they think
    they look better than the other women who are around them?  I don't
    think very many mature, adult women really feel that way.  There are
    always going to be people who are both better and worse looking than
    all of us.  I'd hate to think that my happiness depended on looking
    better than others.  Only a very few women could be assured of always
    being happy in that case.  I hope most women are not shallow enough to
    base their happiness on looks, and I know most womannoters I know
    aren't.  There may be some teenage girls who feel this way, and perhaps
    that's where your experience with females is?
    
    Lorna
    

Lorna, I never trust attractive people til I get to know them. Good thing I
knew you through notes before I met you :-). There were other folks like me at
MIT, of both genders.
	Mez

    Several other topics you may want to look at, along the lines of what
    seems to me to be the original intent of this topic, include:
    
    MENNOTES
    425 - what is sexy?
    436 - LEGS - the word of the day
    440 - women's breasts - what are they?
    
    -Jody
    

    RE .0
    Might I ask you where you are located? Are you in another country?
    
    I ask mainly because you dont see many people that make statements
    about women such as you have here.  I further believe that it might
    assist people here understand where you are coming from.  
    
    At first glance, you are acting...shall we say.... in a less than
    favorable manor.... Per the US standard.
    
    This is, of course, MY TAKE in this, I could (and sometimes am) wrong.
     
    

    I'm tempted to go back over to Euro-woman just to see what kind of a
    sendoff they gave him!
    
    DougO
    
    ps- in case anyone missed it, having Al Martin indicate that
    someone else was exceeding norms of behavior made my day!  Good
    job, Al.

    re:  .12
    
    Mez,
    
    How come you "never trust attractive people" till you get to know them?
    
    
    -Dotti.

    
>    MENNOTES
>    440 - women's breasts - what are they?
    
 	!
        

    nope it is really there
    
    BJ

    re. 9
    
    You're kidding, right?
    

That was _Al_! Wow; I thought we had a new MARTIN person. How nice...

re: Dotti

I think it had to do with what sort of person I (and the other nerds who had
this same reaction) was in high school, and what sort of person, who was
attractive in the magazine-glossy way, was in high school. Attractive people
tended to be football players and cheerleaders; partiers and quite popular.
People who were not particularly attractive, and were quirky, tended to be
people who felt shunned by the attractive people (and I certainly felt this
way). I never really found myself chatting with attractive people, or them
chatting with me. But the druggies, for example, were quite open to
interactions with non-druggy nerds.

I guess my first reaction now to an attractive person stems from some
stereotype about believing that _they_ that looks are important to all sorts of
things like bonding. Of course, this reaction leads to the same sort of
shunning on my part in the other direction. Which is why I work on it.
	Mez

    re .20
    
    Your comment is interesting.  I don't know if I don't trust attractive
    women but I realized a few months ago that I assume that really good
    looking men are going to be shallow and I'm always shocked when they
    turn out to be nice guys with decent values.  (And I get furious when
    men assume that attractive, feminine women can't be intelligent and
    vice versa!)
    
    Re the entries by the base noter-
    
    AS to wanting to look good -- I dress well and try to look my best
    because I feel better about myself when I do, because I believe in
    being the best I can be.  I gave up trying to look better than the
    other women, or trying to figure out what guys (or "a" guy) find
    attractive and then be that way, a long time ago.  
    
    I would hope that my attractiveness is based a lot more than my
    physical qualities.  I would hope that it has something to do with how
    I feel about myself, how I carry myself, my level of self-confidence,
    my ability to carry on an intelligent conversation.......  If not, then
    quite frankly, NO I don't like being admired!

    do i sense another list in the making?
    
    i have a tendency to distance myself from attractive people, cuz i
    figure such a person ......uh........ not sure why i do it?  maybe
    because such people make me feel uncomfortable.  mundane people i
    can hack, strange people attract me, but "attractive" by society's
    norms usually has a negative effect on me.
    
    exceptions now being when i get to know a person from a distance
    first (read: computer)....then i have a feeling that i know somebody,
    and looks doesn't really get in the way.
    
    jonathan (mind first, body second)
    

    re .20, but, Mez, I wasn't considered attractive in high school.  I was
    considered to be a real untouchable little weirdo, so that's why I'm a
    nice person today.  :-)  If I had been considered attractive in high
    school, and had been a cheerleader or a prom queen, I would probably be
    obnoxious today (like most of those people are!) :-)
    
    There is a certain level of physical attractiveness that I consider
    appealing in other people, but if I consider people to be *too* good
    looking, I expect them to be a**holes until proven otherwise.
    
    Lorna
    

    Doug, Mez?  ya know, ya gottah give me a chance.  I aint as bad as you
    THINK I am.  I got a tad squeamish (yes me, imagine that) when I read
    that poor saps entry, i says to myself, "al [I like to call myself
    that), Al, I says, this poor dude is in for a rude awakening.  Wmnoters
    aint the sort of people to be saying this to, but alas...

    right, Al, when we read your notes and praise them, we *are* giving 
    you a chance.  Really.  I liked it!
    
    DougO

    
    Re: 15
    
    If you want a good laugh, go over to EuroWoman and see what they've
    said!  (Note 208).  You'd probably also find it interesting to read
    Pascal's basenote there - he puts a slightly different angle on things 
    which I suspect he didn't *dare* to do here!
    
    Sam

    Well, I just sat and read through Pascal's entry in Euro_Woman and
    the replies.  Interesting.......  While I was doing that I realized
    what it is about his note that feels like having an eyelash under your
    contact lens --
    
    Pascal,
    
    You keep talking about women and the power that they have -- but, you
    seem to be equating women's power with their sexual qualities.  You're
    saying that we, women, have power over men because you find us so
    sexually compelling.  And all I can think of are the old movies and tv
    shows where women get what they want  by using their "feminine
    wiles" (aka withholding or granting of sexual favors) to manipulate
    the man/men in their lives.
    
    Now, if you expect us -- or let me just speak for myself as opposed
    to all of womankind -- to equate that kind of dynamic between men and
    women as "power" on the woman's part, you're sadly mistaken.  
    
    Do I have power?  Yes.  But it is because of the person I am and not
    because I can lead some guy around by his gonads.
    
    There is nothing wrong with finding members of the opposite sex
    attractive -- I've ogled a few men in my life, in fact, probably this
    week -- but I find your equating "power" with sexual attractiveness
    demeaning.
    
    Polly
                                         

You know, on reading Plly's note, I realized I have occasionally wanted to tell
a guy (either in person or via notes, depending on the situation), to zip it up
and tuck it in. But I've never had the guts.
	Mez

     Re .28
    thanks Polly. i had been trying to find those words myself....
    'gail

    Re .29
    
    Not wishing to pick nits as it were, but should it not have been tuck
    it in and zip it up. Doing it in the order you suggested might bring
    tears to the eyes.

    Jamie.

    
    	Can someone supply the nodename::entry for the EuroWoman
    	conference?  (I'm curious now.)  ;^)
    

    TRUCKS::EURO_WOMAN or KP7...
    
    BTW it needs a new home.
    
    Ad

    RE 32
    
    Trucks::Euro_Woman

    All this is very interesting reading... I can see the different
    backgrounds of all people involved... some, are not used to be treated
    as women but as "fellow workers" without mention to gender, age, looks,
    etc. At DecWorld last month of July, a customer told me, noticing my
    high heals and the obvious lack of seat available, if I was European, I
    answered, how have you guess it? Yes, I am
    He said (quote) "Europe is the only place that women still look like
    women...) end of quote. so I asked "Are you European? and he said "No,
    but I wish I were! I had a laugh and said you may not be European but
    you certainly look Italian to me, and quickly went back to Decworld
    matters, he did look pleased by my answer and I don't know why, it
    could have been taken a thousand different ways (which was what I
    planned anyway) a customer is a customer and have to be treated as
    such. I dont see much point in being offended by certain males'
    remarks, wheere I grew up (Mediterranean, hot blood people) we were 
    well used to compliments from men, and probably we have a special 
    quality in knowing how to take their commplements or whatever, and on 
    putting "the sender" right where it should be without hurting their
    male egos, a woman can make herself respected by any "adoring" or
    whatever you want to call it male in a very special way...we learned
    how to send very "direct" indirects to them... without ever feeling
    down or much less, offended, should we feel offended because people
    find us attractive? no way! thanks God for whatever attributes we have!
    I praise men as well as women and NONE ever felt offended yet, and I
    don't either, get offended by their praise..., their help in opening a
    door for me, or helping me with a coat... none of those is important
    enough to loose my sleep over it.
    I think I would like to read now that entry in EuroWoman...
    I'll give my feeback soon!
    Ana
    ego, we can certainly rely a "hint" at any level, at any body in a very
    subble way
    

    I apologize for the mixed up answer I "sent"... the buffer did a trick
    on me and omitted some good lines and left a bit of garbage at end of
    .35...without much explanation. Sorry folks,
    Ana

    Ana,
    
    I guess it all depends on what you consider to be a compliment.
    
    E

    re .39
    
    Hmmm, could it be that your friend considers brains and beauty mutually
    exclusive?
    
    Judi
    

    I dunno - given the choice I'd rather be fascinating for my nonphysical
    characteristics.  I mean, that's what lasts and grows richer - the
    nonphysical characteristics, right?  To be valued just for how you look
    seems so patronizing, so *de*valuing, so judgemental, fleeting,
    insufficient, cheapening (to me - notice I am OWNING this as my
    opinion, and am not making judgements on how anyone else thinks, feels,
    or is).
    
    If someone wants to look to Europe or the Orient to find their
    eye-candy, that's fine with me.
    
    -Jody
    

    Maybe it's the 'difference' that makes it so interesting ?
    Having grown up in an all-white town, I tend to 'notice' 
    attractive women of different ethnic/racial backgrounds
    a bit more than some might. But there's lots of attractive
    sexy Americans too ! :-)

    Dana

    re. 38
    
    It would be interesting to know what the customer had in mind when
    he talks about "women looking like women".
    
    As to (forgot the reply #) different people having different opinions
    on what is and isn't a compliment.  I think you're absolutely right.  I
    think, as a rule, that it is a compliment when a man is attracted to
    me.  However, they can express that attraction in very uncomplimentary
    -- in my eyes -- ways.  I also start to feel less than complimented
    when a man can't past his physical attraction to find out what's inside
    the face and body.  

    
    re: .41, Jody -
    
    >I dunno - given the choice I'd rather be fascinating for my nonphysical
    >characteristics.  I mean, that's what lasts and grows richer - the
    >nonphysical characteristics, right?  To be valued just for how you look
    >seems so patronizing, so *de*valuing, so judgemental, fleeting,
    >insufficient, cheapening 
    
    If I have to make a choice, yeah, I'd rather be fascinating for my
    nonphysical characteristics - but why is it that we need to make that
    choice?  I think it is perfectly ok (and, IMHO, rather desirable) to be
    fascinating for both nonphysical and physical characteristics.  Part of
    the problem, however, is that this society has set up a very narrow
    range of physical traits that are considered "fascinating".  We have
    (most of us, for the most part) not learned to value the physical
    beauty of women as they age, or of women whose appearance falls outside
    that narrow range of traits that society tells us as beautiful.
    
    But in general, if we can learn to see it, I think that one's physical
    characteristics do grow richer over time.  The example that comes to my
    mind - I attended the ordination of Episcopal Bishop Barbara Harris;
    her mother was present.  I remember her mother as a tiny, 80+ year old
    woman, deep walnut-colored skin with great craggy deep wrinkles, a halo
    of fuzzy snow white hair, and glowing dark eyes that clearly held the
    secrets of many decades - nearly a century of life was written into the
    woman's face.  I remember thinking, "How beautiful she is!"  
    
    Certainly to be valued only for how one looks is devaluing,
    insufficient, all the things you said it was.  But to be valued for
    only for any one characteristic is insufficient.  I'd like to be valued
    for *all* of myself, as a whole person, and that includes the way I
    look, the way I behave, the way I think, and a host of other things. 
    I'd like to be valued for the marks that age (and hopefully wisdom :-)
    leave on my face as well as those it leaves on my mind.
    
    					/Rita
    
    

    re .46
    
    Good point, well taken.
    
    It is not the outward appearance, gender or nationality of a person that 
    makes them fascinating or witty or intelligent.  Outward appearances 
    enhance (and sometimes overshadow) what is inside.
    
    Life experience is what makes for an interesting individual.  As Ruth
    Gordon said in "Harold and Maude"   "...it gives you something to talk
    about in the locker room"
    
    
    Judi
    
    
    

    re: .46
    
    I don't mean to insult any European folks or Oriental folks by my
    comment that some men look to "exotic" looking women as more beautiful
    than the domestic ones.  I'm not trying to heap anything on them by
    stating that, but I have heard it myself from many men - that they
    are "fascinated" by exotic-looking women....
    
    Just wanted to clarify....
    
    -Jody

    
    *ahem*
    
    It is NOT my humble opinion, but ESTABLISHED FACTOID that
    Scandanavian women blow the doors off of any other women
    in the world.  I could bask in their presence forever.
    
    There.  I have said it.  Now you all can go back to your
    OPINIONS, as long as you are aware of the facts.
    
    this isn't jonathan.....it must be someone else.....
    

	I had a recent direct (distrubing) experience with the issue of 
appearance and how you are perceived.

	After being over weight all my life, I finally *comitted* myself
to losing and keeping off a fair amount of weight.  Over 6 months, I lost 40 
lbs.  I'm 5'1" and weighed 151 when I started.  So 40 lbs was almost 1/3 my 
bodyweight and on my small frame made an enormous difference.  (To give you 
some idea, I dropped from a size 16 to a size 4.)  

	Two women that I was talking to in the cafe were telling my how much
friendlier and outgoing I was and how much happier I seemed.  I disagreed.
I said that I felt that my weight loss just gave them an opening to talk to 
me in a non work way. (Whereas before, all that people knew of me was that I 
am a system manager and technical support person, something people who are not
computer dweebs often find intimidating.)  They said that that could be a 
small part of it but that no, I WAS friendlier and happier.  Well, I'm sorry.
I'm the same outwardly abrasive, inwardly not so bad person that I've always 
been and actually, due to some organizational turmoil at work and some career
decisions that I have to make soon, I'm LESS happy than I've been in a long 
while. 

	This was just one incident. I've had several other similar (though 
not as "severe") ones.

	Like Jody, I felt/feel kind of diminished/demeaned by this.  One thing 
I would like to work on is lessening the outward abrasiveness of my personality.
But it bothers me that when I put some effort into it, I won't know if they are 
responding to my hard work, my efforts, ME or just my dress size.  

	Don't get me wrong, this concern doesn't rule my life nor will it stop 
me from working on how I interact with people, but I do find it vaguely 
disturbing. 

Tracey

    re:.49
    
    Yeah, too bad that Scandinavian men look like jonathan.
    
    =) x a zillion.
    
    Lisa

    re .51, Really Lisa?  Gee, I was under the impression that Scandinavian
    men where usually over 6', muscular, and very blonde with
    classically handsome facial features?  
    
    Lorna
    

    re .51, I'm having trouble remembering *exactly* what Jonathan does
    look like, but isn't he kind of skinny with light brown hair and
    glasses?
    
    Lorna
    

    Lorna,
    
    and red lipstick
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    
    Re: .50
    
    Tracey - firstly, congratulations on being very strong-willed.  I know
    how hard it is to lose weight!
    
    There is one thing I wondered though - why was is that you wanted to
    lose a lot of weight?  Was it because you did not feel happy with
    yourself at your previous weight?  If this is the case, then surely you
    did feel happier *with yourself* than you did before?  And, perhaps
    subconciously, this would come across to other people in your
    behaviour.
    
    A while ago I lost quite a bit of weight, and some people commented to
    me that I seemed happier/more confident.  I didn't really feel any
    different as a person, but I was happier with myself (the way I looked
    - and I did it for me, not for anyone else) and people could obviously
    see that.  I didn't feel demeaned by that or think that they were
    suggesting that I was a miserable old so-and-so before.  I just took it
    as a compliment - I had worked hard to lose weight and it was nice to
    know that others had noticed the results of my hard work!
    
    Sam
    

    re: 54
    
    And don't forget the black leather....
    
    =)
    
    Lisa

    re .52
    
    I recently spent a month in Norway and, believe, me there were some
    beautiful men there.  In fact, A LOT of beautiful men.  Unfortunately,
    I didn't find very many that I thought were attractive in a "sexy" way.
    However, there was one large Viking that........

    Scandanavian men.  Oooooohhhhh!  I spent two weeks in Norway and
    Denmark about four years ago and did not want to come back.   
    
    Tall, cheekbones, shoulders, light eyes, Yiyiyiyi!
    
    You can bet I learned to flirt in Norsk and Dansk very fast.
    
       Margaret (who is half Danish)
    
    PS:  Dutch men are fabulous too. I asked for directions in Amsterdam
         at every opportunity  :^)  -- folks who know me know I rarely
         get lost, even in foreign places I can sometimes give directions
         to the natives.

    Margaret, you have got *taste* :-)
    
    Ad

    Have you folks been reading "Godbody" again (by Theodore Sturgeon, I
    think)?   ;)
    
    -Jody
    

    Is that a pointer, Jody? ;-)
    
    Ad

    Mike,
    
    I can understand that.  When I saw "Beaches", her lips upstaged her 
    through the whole movie!
    
    Did she have any lines?
    
    E Grace

    I just wanted to state, for the record, that I am fascinated by Julia
    Roberts's lips.
    
    -- Mike

    
    re: .63,,,\
    beaches was with Barbara Hersey (and of course ms. middler)...not
    julia roberts.  Julia was in "steel magnolias" and now in 'flatliners'
    
    sorry for the tangent!
    
    d
    

    re .64, Julia Roberts was also in Pretty Woman and Mystic Pizza and
    she's a good actress, as well as having been blessed with a pretty
    mouth.
    
    Lorna
    

    I knew that!
    
    I really did!
    
    I did!  Really!
    
    E

    re .61, personally, I like Matthew Broderick's nose, but that's
    an entirely different topic.  I wanted to state it for the record,
    though.
    
    Lorna
    

          <<< TRUCKS::DISK$USER72:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EURO_WOMAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Euro_Woman >-
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Note 208.6*                  Let's talk about it...                     6 of 107
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    Have you ever thought of cross posting your basenote in the conference

    MOMCAT::WOMANNOTES-V3 (Press Kp7 or SELECT)

    This should roughly half your life expectancy.
    
    Jamie.
          <<< TRUCKS::DISK$USER72:[NOTES$LIBRARY]EURO_WOMAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                                -< Euro_Woman >-
================================================================================
Note 208.19                  Let's talk about it...                    19 of 107
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    Re .16

    >May I ask how old you are ?
    
    According to the basenote he is 25. But as he has just made a similar
    entry in WOMANNOTES his chances of reaching 26 have become markedly
    limited.

    Jamie.

    yo!
    
    Mike V
    
    I know  two wimmin who think you have nice eyes
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    Thanks, Bonnie, but I wish you had told me that before I announced my
    MACHO campaign; if I had known, I could have used that as an additional
    incentive, along with the clean sheets and the barf bag.  :-)

    -- Mike

    Are Julia Robert's lips enhanced by cosmetic surgery?  That type
    of lips seem to be the "in" thing, exemplified by Barbara Hershey,
    Michelle Pfieffer (sp?), and now Julia.  Anyway, in the book "I'm
    Dancing as Fast as I Can" Gesley Kirkland talks about having silicon
    implants in her lips.  Hope I'm not spoiling anything for anyone.
    	Linda

    I don't know about Julia Roberts lips, but she's only 22 yrs. old.  I
    hope she hasn't changed her appearance by cosmetic surgery at this
    early stage of her life!  My guess would be that she hasn't, though,
    because her entire mouth (smile, etc.) seems unusually *big*!  Some
    people do naturally have huge mouths.  I once worked with a woman who
    had a similar mouth, and men used to comment on it all the time.  Not
    to be catty :-), but it made me sick after awhile, to hear the guys
    raving about this one woman's mouth so often.  
    
    Lorna
    

    
    	re: .70
    
    	I saw an interview with her on TV and also read one in US
    	magazine, I believe it was and that's one of the questions
    	she's asked the most.  And she assures us that those lips
    	were made by Mother Nature and haven't been tampered with!
    
    	(Now if she had only left her hair alone....)
    
    	JJ
    

    A good many models do have collagen injected in their lips for that
    pouty look.  Methinks it started around the time Kelly LeBrock kept
    chirping "Don't hate me because I'm beautiful" in those shampoo ads....
    
    -Jody
    

    Regarding the big lips road to beauty, Kim Basinger's big lips are
    real, too.  I've read in an interview that when she was a little kid in
    grade school, in Georgia, that she believed she was ugly because the
    other little kids used to call her names and make fun of her because
    her lips were so big.  Times change.  I guess those kids have now eaten
    their words after Kim came back and purchased an entire town in Georgia
    with money she earned, mostly because so many people consider her
    beautiful.
    
    Lorna
    

    SORRY PEOPLE BUT YOU ARE STILL JUST TALKING ABOUT PHYSICAL ATTRIBUTES
    AND I AM NOT JUST FASCINATED BY THEM....NO, THIS KIND OF FASCINATION
    COMES FROM THE WAY A WOMAN CAN KEEP YOUR ATTRACTION ON HER...AND
    BELIEVE ME, IT IS NOT JUST BY THE WAY SHE LOOKS LIKE...SO ? 
    
    
    SPEAKING ABOUT JULIA ROBERTS, I WOULD SAY THAT I FELT IN LOVE WITH
    HERE BY SEING PRETTY WOMAN. AND I AM STILL HANGING ON....SHE FASCINATED
    ME. AND WILL FOR A LONG TIME .....
    
    SHE IS THE MOST BEAUTIFUL WOMAN IN THE WORLD. (AFTER JACQUELINE
    BISSET..."WILD ORCHID", SHE IS PLAYING THE OLD ONE BUT MY GOD, SHE
    IS 10000000 TIME BETTER THAT THE LITTLE CHEEK THAT IS ACTING WITH
     MICKEY ROURKE ...TOO BAD, SHE IS GETTING OLDER NOW)
    
    
    HAVE FUN......

    in re .76
    
    Would you please use upper and lower case when you write?
    
    PLEASE DON'T SHOUT!
    
    Thankyou
    
    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod

    re .76, it seems to me that you're still talking about physical
    attributes, too, otherwise why aren't you in here raving about Mother
    Teresa instead of Julia Roberts?
    
    BTW, if Jacqueline Bissett is so beautiful, what difference does it
    make how old she is?
    
    Lorna
    

    re 76
    
    Pascal,
    
    Welcome back..... like Lorna, I've seen nothing in your note or replies
    that inidcates that you're talking aobut anything more than physical
    characteristics.  You've never mentioned talking to a woman, getting to
    know her..... in fact the only "attributes" you've mentioned
    specifically - at least that I can remember - were legs.  So, if you
    want me to believe that you appreciate women as people, I'm going to
    have to hear something different than what I've heard before!
    
    Polly  

    Ok, sorry for the upper and lower caracters....
    
    
    and please don't think women are just for me two legs !!!!
    
    They are much more and I didn't discussed theway they speak because
    it would have been too long.....
    
    But I like sensual voices.....in fact I die for fatal women....
    
    
    
    
    See you, don't have that much time today, must fly to Zurich....				Pascal

    Ah Pascal,
    
    Me thinks our communication gap goes much further than the fact our
    "native" languages are different.  A woman's voice is a physical
    attribute.  I was talking about what is behind the pretty face, inside
    the body... you know.... the "person".  If you're not interested in
    that -- and I haven't seen any evidence that you are -- then I can't
    see where your interest in/ love of women is anything but sexual.   

    I diagree that a womans voice is strickly a 'physical attribute'.
    How the personality (woman) uses that voice is vital. What she says,
    how she says it, inflections of the voice, tone, pitch are all affected
    mostly by the personality.  If your going to seperate the physical
    woman COMPLETELY from the personality then I think you are being too
    extreme.  One loves both the person and their body too... at least
    in the case of romantic relationships. That was a classic example of
    someone who says 'love me not my body', well part of YOU IS your
    body.
    
    Jeff
    

    
    Jeff,
    
    I don't think that was what I was doing at all.  Of course my body is a
    part of who I am and the way I dress that body and use it -- mannerisms
    etc. -- is clearly a reflection of my personality.  However, the base
    noter appears to be interested only, or at best primarily, in physical
    attributes.  I object to be seen as a "body" first and a person second.
    
    In this case, I had suggested that Pascal had never even mentioned
    talking to a woman, meaning getting to know who she is.  He comes
    back and says that he likes "sensual voices". Somehow that doesn't tell
    me that he's interested in what she has to say ........  
    
    I'm a person for whom sexual attraction is based more on the person
    than on physical attributes.  And, if I love someone I'm going to love
    their body, albeit not perfect.  I, perhaps naively, expect the same
    from the man in my life.
    
    Polly
    
    ps  Folks, do you think that there's a possibility that Pascal is
    putting us on with all this women as a sex object bit?  Could he be
    baiting us for sport?  Or do I just not want to believe that men still
    think that way?

    Polly,
    
    I don't believe Pascal is 'putting us on' have you gone into
    euro_women and read the similar topic that he started there?
    
    Bonnie

    Some thoughts about the connections between one's personality and
    one's body, and the connections therebetween, not in response to
    any particular note: 
    
    Beauty is an attribute of the soul.  Attractiveness is in one
    sense the everyday expression of that inner beauty and personal
    integrity, peace with one's own self and acceptance of one's
    choices in life.  

    As long as we're in this life, we come in bodies.  I've never met
    a soul, no matter how beautiful, coming to work without a body. 
    And because we're presently packaged in bodies, our attractiveness
    finds its expression in and through bodies. 

    It doesn't have a necessary connection to what society defines as
    pretty.  I've known very pretty people of both sexes who were
    quite unattractive, and extremely attractive people of both sexes
    who were, by glossy-magazine standards, downright ugly.  

    Besides the fact that we're all human and hence all subject to the
    pull of hormones at various times, there's also the factor that
    people who are at peace with themselves tend to be more
    comfortable with their bodies as well, hence less threatened by
    sexuality, and hence frequently more sexually desirable.  

    Look at Kevin Costner, for example.  (And I could, all day.  But
    that's a tangent.)  Here's a man who can melt down female hearts
    and other body parts from clear across a crowded room, and yet
    he's a quiet family man who's been married to the same woman for
    years, who nearly didn't have a career because he refused to do
    certain roles that would have made money but advocated things he
    didn't approve of, and who doesn't dress or behave to deliberately
    attract crowds of women.  By being himself and worrying about
    what's right, he's become attractive in a deep and real way, where
    if he had been worrying only about looking attractive, in all
    likelihood he'd be just another pretty has-been by now. 

    --bonnie

    Ok Polly, perhaps I misunderstood your objective in asking that people
    love more than just the body.  Anyway, thank you for clarifying it.
    
    Yes, I do think its POSSIBLE that we could be being baited on this 
    topic.  
    
    Jeff

    
    	After reading the basenoter's entry in Euro_Woman, I got the
    	impression that what he was really seeking was the notes
    	equivalent of a "900" number, if you catch my drift...  ;^)
    

    In the Euro_Woman base note, he describes himself as a 25-year-old
    boy -- give him credit, at least, for accuracy in his self assessment.
    
    					andrew

    re .85
    
    Yes, Bonnie, I read it.  Like I said, maybe it's just wishful thinking
    on my part......
    
    re .89  -- His assessment is indeed accurate but I'm hoping that
    today's generation of boys is growing up with a little bit better
    attitude towards women.  My 21 year old would put with him for about 30
    seconds.
    
    re .86
    
    Following up on what you said, I'd like to share something which was
    written to me.  We'd seen each other around for a long time but never 
    had an opportunity to really meet.  One day we had a chance to talk for 
    a few minutes and this was written about that meeting.
    
    "I was always struck by your physical presence and visual style. 
    However, as we both know, there are many "pretty" people with whom you
    wouldn't spend a moment.  The best surprise is that besides the obvious
    fact that I am physically attracted to you, I found that I enjoy your
    humor, your wit, your saracasm, your intellect......."
    
    This is a man who I'd always thought was nice looking but never gave it
    much more thought than that.  After I started to get to know him, he
    became one of the most attractive men I know.  And, messages such as
    the one above and subsequent  conversations have let me know that his
    attraction to me is based on far more than the physical.
    
    By the way, I agree whole heartedly with inner peace and
    self-acceptance being a major part of attractiveness.  Ever notice how
    much more attractive really confident people seem?
    
    Polly
                                             

    re .84
    
    Well, Pascal is writing out of the node SKYWAY, which is the Zurich
    Office Automation Cluster. Women's rights (or the lack thereof) in
    Switzerland has already been discussed in this conference).....perhaps
    he just fits in real well?
    
    :-)
    Heinrich
    (who aspires to be less typical)
    
    

    well folks, I don't know if I really get everything you say because
    I read very fast....(I have things to do too....)
    
    However, I must tell you you are getting a bit boring in here....
    oK I tried to throw you a topic that was something more "chilly"
    and "unusual". But the only kind of reactions I had until now are
    kind of judgment on my person .. so please, this is not what I
    excpected and moreover it is not going very far......
    
    So, I think I will stop writing in here, for those or these who
    love me, follow me in Eurowoman.
    
    
    Bye				Pascal

    
    Bye Pascal.
    
    I think you'll find that the response is cooling in Eurowoman as
    well...I assume you meant "chilli" when you wrote "chilly", but as it
    happens the latter is a far better description of the reception that
    you deserve.

    Interestingly, the Eurowoman discussion seems to be centered more
    on his other topic of discussion -- omitted from his entry here -- his
    fantasy of having sex with more than one woman at the same time.  While
    some of the noters have been pushing the idea that this does not
    demonstrate a high regard for women, many of the noters seem to be
    more interested in the mechanics (so to speak) of the act and/or
    whether or not such a fantasy is perverted.
    
    I suspect that Pascal wanted the discussions here to be more sexually
    oriented.  Funny how he labeled what he didn't want to hear "boring"
    and withdrew ......  Pascal reminds me of some of the men I've had to
    deal with who just really couldn't understand  -- and I believe that
    they were incapable of it -- what was wrong with their attitudes
    towards women. You know the ones who say there's no difference in the
    way they treat women  in the workplace and that they've never seen women
    treated any differently.  Of course, here in the States those men tend
    to be a generation or two older than Pascal.  Perhaps it is cultural.
    
    I don't feel too bad about Pascal fleeing from this forum. Personally,
    I don't think that he is either trainable or educatable on this issue.
    
    Polly
     
    

    
     Re -1
    
    I agree that, in Eurowoman, the discussion has taken a different
    turn...
    
    *IMO ONLY* I believe that at least one of pascal's notes in Eurowoman
    is direct solicitation (as was pointed out at the time by another
    noter) and I personally believe that he should have been moderated into
    the ground.                                                   
    Guess I'll just have to settle for being glad he's outta here.
    
    'gail
    
    

    gail,
    
    I think you're right.  In light of the interchange, if THIS man asked
    me where I was located -- oh, and you can send it to me direct -- I
    would consider it to be other than idle curiousity.  I think that
    he would have liked THIS forum to be one to feed his salacious
    fantasies and attitudes and took his marbles home when we wouldn't play
    his game.    
    
    I guess it may be at least in part cultural differences, but I'm really
    kinda confused by what the moderators over at Eurowoamn choose to
    "moderate" and what they choose not to.
    
    As for Pascal, there's a part of me that is grateful that he's no where
    near my daughter and a another part -- perhaps the more sadistic part
    of me -- that would love to turn her loose on him.  Poor child wouldn't
    know what hit him!   
    
    Polly

After watching what was being said here in =wn= I took myself over to Euro-Woman
in search of more input.  I read .0 through .162 there and brought myself back
to re-read what was here.

Based upon what I've read that Pascal has had to write, I believe that he
was soliciting response on about 5 different levels at once.

First the group sex angle.  I must applaud the non-emotional response I found
in =ew=.  It was sensible and somewhat humourous.  But not quite what the gent
was looking for. Ah well, such is life.

Second, this 'fascinating woman' business.  I honestly cannot say what Pascal
had in mind; but based upon my own experience of young man of similar background
I cannot rule out the possibility that he was looking for a discussion of
personal magnetism rather than objectivication or libidinous chat.

[Perhaps my response stems from the fact that Pascal finds legs, specifically
the way they move/walk, a source of 'power.'   You see, _I_ look at people's
legs all the time in a non-salacious manner. Trust me on this one, I don't
find legs in general to be sexy; but I do find them to be fascinating indicators
of mood, self-esteem, health, position, ...]

Third, I do believe that a more titillating response was desired.  But I confess
to being a bit mystified as to how women might provide a titillating response
on the subject of their physical magnetism.  Perhaps personal anecdotes were
the desired response ... but beyond the entertainment value [?] they couldn't
prove too informative, being hearsay and all.

Ultimately, I found the man to be a bit confused or misguided, but harmless.

  Annie

    Annie
    
    I'm in agreement with you on this one...
    
    I think Pascal is probably more typical of the average male of
    his age than we necessarily are aware of, and I don't think he
    had any 'malign' ideas when he first wrote.
    
    He was, as those of you who read the euro_women account may recall,
    pushed into putting his note into =wn= with many asside remarks that
    if he did he'd not make 26.
    
    sigh
    
    Bonnie

    After reading the comments about PASCAL here,
    I'm somewhat more understanding about  --edp's
    insistance that there be no discussion of anything
    but his ideas.
    
    I'm also disappointed by the lack of moderator
    response.
    
    /bruce

    /bruce
    
    how would you like the moderators to respond?
    
    Bonnie

    There, there, Bruce.  I understood what you were saying:  An
    insistance on discussion of ideas without comments on motives
    or personalities has its reasonable side.
    
    						Ann B.

    
    	RE: .103  edp
    
    	Now we know what the "e" stands for - (and I always thought it
    	was "Eric"...)   ;^)
    
    	Very cute.