Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    Dorian,
    	
    Good note, I like the positive tone.
    
    My idea;
    Recognize what we define as masculine or feminine and how that's
    different from male or female.  Clearly there are things that
    have unique male/masscule attributes or female/feminine attibutes.
    Many of these are arbitry based on societies current definition. 
    Your example, why is pink a girls color?  It's a symbol tied to
    our language and culture that is associated with baby girls
    or at least to do with being female.  Language is a reflection
    of society and is strongly typed(western languages) to gender.
    	
    Many jobs have similar connotations, construction work/masculine,
    sewing/feminine, tayloring/masculine.  I don't mean to discuss
    the job just the association with gender of specific things that
    have no real specific sex attribute.  An example of something
    that has a sex attribute is a bra, its functional and serves a 
    specific purpose.  The counter to that is skirts, assigned by
    society as womans wear, it does not serve a function specific to
    the wearers sex.
    
    I offer some areas where similarity and difference are not a 
    specific function of sex but societies assignments to a gender
    class (masculine or feminine).  I'm trying to illustrate how our
    use of language is closely coupled to gender and societial definitions.
    Did it make sense?
    
    Allison
    

Yeah. I think we'd need to get rid of all the unnecessary 'flags' if we wanted
to make progress the quickest way. This is difficult, as it does not mean women
can't wear skirts; it means anyone _can_. It means I can name my girl Mark, and
my boy Sue :-). It's _so_ difficult to do. I think starting with naming
children Kai, Mez, or Z is a good start. Hair cuts, clothes, makeup, jewelry,
toys, gifts, ... gah.
	Mez

    
    re: .2 
    	
    Mez,
    	
    Thats the toughest part. It gets done a piece at a time starting
    with a name, a simple gift, or a role model that says traditional
    conformity is not always good.
    
    Looking backward 20 years, the changes are occuring.  Simple things
    like a mens shirt in pink are not cause for comments or worse anymore.
    It's simply another good color for some to wear.  So there is movement
    just very slow.  It's unfortunate that this change occurs more in
    big cities and take years(if ever) to ripple to the rural areas
    that tend to be more conservitive(read as locked into accepted 
    tradition).
    
    Of course all this is just my opinion and observations.
    
    Allison

Depressingly enough, I have a brother-in-law who won't wear pink...

I tried to do a mind-f*ck, and though what it would be like not to have any
clue at all as to the sex of the people around me, except for body type as or
as-not shown by clothing. It was creepy. Still a long row to how.
	Mez

    re: .5
    
    Excuse me, but the "first major appearance of feminism" was in the 
    1800s.  And, yes, I do mean major.  After all, the Equal Rights 
    Amendment was written in 1914 (give or take a year).  It just took
    some people a while to notice us, or give us serious consideration!
    
    E

    re: .5
    	
    Thanks for the reminder.  Although I was refering to more mainstream
    society modes of dress.  The experiments of the past were significant
    but not mainstream.  Oh yes, mainstream in this case is what the
    bank loan officer of that time was wearing, or more explictly what
    you might wear if you were applying for a loan. :*)
    	
    As far as pre or post dating feminism, that's outside of what I was
    talking about.  Granted it's related though. To me it all postdates
    the appearance.
    	
    Allison