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Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Title:	Topics of Interest to Women
Notice:	V3 is closed. TURRIS::WOMANNOTES-V5 is open.
Moderator:	REGENT::BROOMHEAD

Created:	Thu Jan 30 1986
Last Modified:	Fri Jun 30 1995
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	1078
Total number of notes:	52352

319.0. "Mirror, Mirror" by ULTRA::ZURKO (Is this the party to whom I am speaking?) Thu Aug 23 1990 11:06

Ann shared this with the other co-mods before vacationing. I found it chilling,
most particularly since I am about to embark on 2 years of independant research
in a university environment. I plan on gettting the book.
	Mez
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Extracted from Chapter 1, "Confessions", of _Reflecting_Men_at_Twice_
_Their_Natural_Size_ by Sally Cline and Dale Spender, from Dale Spender's
part:

My starting point was that in my earlier research on mixed-sex conversations
I had come to appreciate that men talked more than women.  I had been
able to document the greater number of interruptions performed by
men (approximately 99%) and the greater extent to which men determined
the conversation topics.  I had also found that `What you mean is...'
is one of the most common utterances of men (on my tapes) as they talk
to women.  And while I had used this research it began to assume a new
significance in the context of reflecting men.  For I realised that
when women were interrupted by men (sometimes rudely), when they had the
topic of conversation taken from them (often with the `take over' of
`what you mean is') they rarely protested.  On the contrary, when I
replayed those tapes I could sometimes *hear* the smile of the woman who
made way for the man to take the conversational floor.  There are many
`How very interesting' and `What did you do then?' and `I'm most
impressed...do go on' comments made by women on the tapes.  And each
time I listen to those supportive and eliciting comments coming from
the women... it is my own voice that I can hear.

...

Again and again my tapes have recorded the evidence to be used against
me; again and again they have revealed that in conversation with men it
is almost unknown for any woman to talk for more than one third of the
time.*  This is in itself quite astonishing; what is more astonishing,
however, is that women consistantly report that they had a fair share
of the conversation, even if their `share' was less than 20%.

* There are some exceptions.  When the woman is a medical practioner,
soliciter, educator -- or in some other profession and informal professional
advice is being sought, women can talk for more than 33% of the time.

When I first began to amass these findings, they represented something
of a challenge to me.  I set up conversations with men (which were taped)
and I determined to talk for 50% of the time.  Even when the disapproval
started, I persevered.  I have believed myself to be aggressive, rude,
inconsiderate, domineering and unpleasant, as I have tried to get an
equal share.  And before the tapes were analyzed I was prepared to claim
that it felt as though I *had* talked for 50% of the time; perhaps I
had even talked for longer?  That was certainly the opinion of my male
conversationalists; without exception each volunteered the information
that I was impossible, that I didn't listen to a word he said, and that
I was overbearingly rude.

Yet never had I talked for more than 42% of the time.  My average for
such `unacceptable' behaviour is 39%.  Which says something about the
amount of verbal space that both sexes consider a proper share for women
and men.  While women encourage men to speak (...) for about two thirds
of the time, the social code is observed.  But let women take more
than one third, and there is social disaster. ...

...

There was a time when I wondered whether this form of behaviour was
culturally specific.  That was before I spent a few weeks in Sweden,
where I could not understand a single word.  I didn't need to.  [Examples
given.]  And then I knew that this female habit was not peculiar to
the English, nor to English-speaking countries.

...

My students questioned the validity of this research (...), so I
suggested we conduct our own experiment.  Accordingly, three unsmiling
women students set off to run the gauntlet of a short pathway, and
their fellow students (who were observing) were astonished.  All three
women were accosted; `What's wrong with you?' was the standard demand.
One was told `Cheer up, love; it's not that bad', and the same woman
was twice physically stopped and abused.  Because they were unsmiling.
...

...

...I found an account of the first [sic] women's rights conference in
the United States.  It was held in Salem, Ohio, in 1850, and it had one
peculiar characteristic.  It was officered entirely by women; not a man
was allowed to sit on the platform, to speak, to vote.  `NEVER DID MEN
SUFFER SO,' wrote Elizabeth Cady Stanton who had played a part in
setting up this peculiar arrangement.  `They implored just to say a
word; but no -- the President was inflexible -- no man should be heard.
If one meekly arose to make a suggestion he was at once ruled out
of order.  For the first time in the world's history, men learned how
to sit in silence when questions they were interested in were under
discussion'  (Staton et al, [History of Woman Suffrage] 1881, vol. I,
p. 110, original emphasis).

Some of the men were enraged by this treatment.  How could women
expect to present a convincing case if they treated men in this
barbarous fashion? ...

...

Whenever I tried to discuss these research findings, however, I met with
many protests.  `Your material may be all right but your manner lets
you down.  It's too threatening.  You have an accusing tone,' I was
told.  On one occasion I was speaking at a conference and was listing
my findings -- that males talk more, interrupt more, and are more likely
to insist on telling you what is *really* meant.  Before I could finish
I was interrupted by two men in the audience.

This was not true, they protested.  It wasn't at all the way I described
it.  Men did not talk more, interrupt more, or insist that they knew all
the answers.  They would tell me what it was really like -- and they
proceeded to do so at great length.  They were angry and emotional as
they repudiated my agressive, embittered and negative image of men.
I presented my research findings -- and they accused me of being a
man-hater.  It was clear that my facts were violating the social laws.

Later I was congratulated on setting up such a good example of male
behaviour to illustrate my thesis. ...

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
319.1	appalling	LOOKUP::WALKER		`Thu Aug 23 1990 12:05`	1

319.2		GEMVAX::KOTTLER		`Thu Aug 23 1990 12:39`	11
	Dale Spender's books are great. Not only because she writes so well, but because she actually goes around doing research and measuring this kind of thing (how much males & females talk), and comes up with evidence that's hard to argue with. However, I'm sure ways are found to ignore/ dismiss/trivialize it...sigh. As a result of reading books like this one, I'm thinking seriously of sending my daughter to an all-women's college. Dorian
319.3	So T H A T ' S it!	BELMNT::HOLLAND		`Thu Aug 23 1990 13:31`	12
	This note was fascinating to me. My boss (male) is constantly accusing me of having "too much mouth" or "not knowing when to keep quiet". Our exchanges our good natured (at least, on my part) but sometimes I think I do detect an undertone of annoyance or exasperation in his voice. I was truly baffled by his reaction to my ability to match his clever remarks. Now I have seen the light! However I'm too much of an old dog to learn to roll over at this point. It will be interesting to see what effect this will have on my career plans. Incidentally, I'm not married either. Maybe I haven't been verbally docile enough for the men in my life...
319.4	.3 - make sure you don't sound too clever...;-)	GEMVAX::KOTTLER		`Thu Aug 23 1990 13:38`	1

319.5	another plug for women's colleges	BTOVT::THIGPEN_S		`Thu Aug 23 1990 13:47`	11
	I have a neice who is the 2nd child in her family. The first is a boy (now in his 3rd year at Harvard) around whom you must understand the world spins. No one shall ever say nay to him. Etc, etc, and though he's a good-hearted boy at core he's a pain in the neck and self-centered all around the core. Now Lisa has known all her life that she comes second. And she's just a peach of a person, mature and patient as well as smart. So you can imagine how GLAD I am that she chose to go to SMITH COLLEGE this fall -- a place where women come first!!! Where she won't be interrupted!!!
319.7		CSSE32::M_DAVIS	Marge Davis Hallyburton	`Thu Aug 23 1990 14:27`	4
	Eagle, I can't imagine Mez in any situation where she would allow men to allot her interactions. grins,
319.8	ouch!	CADSE::MACKIN	Our data has arrived!	`Thu Aug 23 1990 14:49`	4
	Re: -,.1 Really! In fact, I'd hate to be the person who tried to stop her from interacting.
319.9		TCC::HEFFEL	Sushido - The way of the tuna	`Thu Aug 23 1990 17:27`	19
	Either I live in a different world or I surround myself with Introverted males. Conversations with my male boss and my male co-workers (I'm the only female in my group) and my husband or much more likely to be dominated by me than any of the males. (And I'd be happy to invite the author of the book to tape me/us and document it.) In fact, I've been attending a management development program and we had a session on valuing differences last week. The 4 hour discussion was completely dominated by the women in the room. The men were silent. Not just speaking only 60% of the time. Not just speaking 40% of the time. Silent. The facilitator had to prod them (gently :-) ) to contribute. (It was, after all, a session on Valuing Difference and we wanted to hear from everyone.) No wonder there is so much anger from the women here if this is indeed what you experience day in and day out. Tracey
319.10	results don't surprise me - unfortunatly	CVG::THOMPSON	Aut vincere aut mori	`Thu Aug 23 1990 17:46`	6
	The social scientest in me can't help but wonder if men interrupt other men as often as they interrupt women. I suspect they do. Especially after the all male meeting I was in this afternoon which seemed to be all interruptions. Alfred
319.11	Valuing Differences workshop	RUSTIE::NALE		`Thu Aug 23 1990 17:59`	10
	RE: .9 I've also attended a Valuing Differences workshop. I honestly can't remember if men or women dominated the conversation. However, I can certainly understand if women did because in the session I attended we talked a lot about emotions, feelings, empathy, etc. These may be subjects which more women are comfortable talking about than men. Sue
319.12	Ah!	YUPPY::DAVIESA	Grail seeker	`Fri Aug 24 1990 03:28`	14
	Re .0 That explains a lot of my personal experience. Especially at work. My manager keep calling me an "intellectual" (in a disparraging way). He is not comfortable with our conversations. I have a suspicion that this is because I present the rationalisation for my points and that, in doing so, I take up more "air time" than he is comfortable giving me. On the other hand, leaving out the rationalisations invariably results in my brief, succinct points being dismissed. Having read .0 I'm going to try out some different styles of interracting and see what effect they have. Thanks for the info.
319.13	English Experience	SUBURB::LAMSDALEC		`Fri Aug 24 1990 07:25`	25
	Re.0 I must admit that my own experience echos this... I come a family of all girls and went to an all girl school , coupled with the fact that I was brought up to say EXACTLY! what I thought , it came as a big shock when I went to University !. At first I couldn't understand why the other girls didn't stand up for themselves , why I got such a bad reaction from men and women alike - just for expressing my ideas. But like everyone else I wanted to be accepted and soon learned to tone my behaviour down . Even today my manager (a woman ) often suggests that I should be careful what and how I say things , apparently I am too direct - I wonder if that's because it's a very masculine trait ? Personally I'd send a girl to a single sex school because from my experience we conform in the end , but it still gave me more confidence to stand up for what I believe when I want to . So I suppose all I'm really saying is that all cliche " people are the same the world over" Cathy *^)) who_wanders_if_we're_ever_change_the_world?
319.14		MOMCAT::CADSE::GLIDEWELL	Wow! It's The Abyss!	`Sat Aug 25 1990 02:02`	20
	> 319.12 by YUPPY::DAVIESA > Having read .0 I'm going to try out some different styles of > interracting and see what effect they have. Thanks for the info. A friend of mine interrupts about 80% of everyone's sentences. Bang! on the first of second syllable. A few times, when I had to convey the info now I just kept talking in spite of her interruption. Sometimes it would take an entire sentence (and me ignoring what she said) for her to pick up that I was talking. Often, she wouldn't. Yawn. This was so preposterous ... I started marching thru some other people's interruptions. On the whole, I needed to make a longer string for the men to notice that I ignored their interruption, and there were quite a few ... the word that comes ... is discombobulated ... faces ... as tho they were not used to being interrupted. Certainly they weren't, by me. Let us know what you find. :) Meigs
319.15	you have to adapt or you'll be out of style	MILKWY::JLUDGATE	someone shot our innocence	`Mon Aug 27 1990 17:55`	8
	first off.....could i have permission to send this out to people who should really see it? second.....i especially like the last two lines....yeah, like she really had to ask some men in a crowd to be rude to help her illustrate a point......
319.16	faster than a speeding bullit...	ULTRA::ZURKO	Facts are simple 'n facts are straight	`Tue Aug 28 1990 09:31`	4
	Ann isn't around, but feel free to send the actual quoted material and reference out. Please strip my personal comments; I'd like to get to MIT before they do :-). Mez