Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Ok Bonnie I didn't read far enough in the other note and had missed the
    context, sorry.
    
    Sounds as if we agree. Suprise, hm?
    
    "Why is there a need to keep women out of the Elks etc?  I don't know
    as there is a need to keep women out of Elks specifically. I am not an
    Elk so I can't speak with insight on that organization.
     
    The question comes down to which mens/womens, boys/girls organizations
    'need' to keep the opposite sex out?
    
    I was a Program Director of the a Boys Club about 20 years ago.  At the
    time Boys' Clubs were just that, not Boys and Girls Clubs as they now
    are.
    
    I see a need for men and women  and boys and girls to be able to
    be a member of some gender specific organizations if they so choose.
    
    Let me think of an example/need.
    
    Women and men to spend time with and be with their own gender 
    sometimes to share the problems their gender has to deal with... the
    exact setting is not critical but a 'club' would PROVIDE the setting if
    it was gender specific, whether it was a gold club, or whatever.
    
    Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts provide gender specific activities for boys
    and girls to do the things boys typically and girls typically like to
    do.  There are always some exceptions, but as a rule boys are more 
    LIKELY to play hard baseball than a group of girls.  Or girls are more
    LIKELY to want to play a less competative team sport.  (Why is not the
    issue in this note). (Of course the above respresents my observations
    and others will probably disagree.) 
    
    For these reasons it is appropriate to provide those opportunities for
    men, women, boys and girls to have SOME gender specific sports/teams/
    clubs/ whatever for them to join.  
    
    Anyway, what do others think?
    
     Jeff

    Jeff
    
    I also think that Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts should be separate
    and also there should be separate as well as mixed clubs for
    boys and girls. 
    
    During what is called the 'latency period' and early preteens,
    boys and girls often spend more time on the project at hand and
    less time being silly if they are in gender exclusive groups.
    
    It can be a valuable learning experience.
    
    Bonnie

    Well, Jeff, I think I need to take gentle exception to one point.
    
    I - note that I said *I* - believe that "boys are more LIKELY to play
    hard baseball than a group of girls" because boys and girls are still
    raised differently.  When I was in elementary school, all the girls
    I knew liked to play baseball, soccer, and basketball, but were not
    encouraged to do so.  I don't feel this has changed all that much, 
    unfortunately.
    
    To the best of my knowledge, the reason so many Boy's and Girl's clubs
    had merged is funding more than anything else.
    
    Yes, I agree, there are spaces that should be boy-only and girl-only,
    especially when learning about sex (only because of modesty and 
    privacy issues.  I know most young people get very embarassed very
    easily.).
    
    Did this make any sense?
    
    E Grace

    
    I can very well understand that both type of clubs have a need.  I
    agree that the girl scouts and the boy scouts should remain separate. 
    I think that they probably need a bit of modification, however.  For
    instance, I don't think you can get patched in girl scouts for building
    a model stock car.  And he boy scouts don't give patched for baking
    cookies.  I think this should be changed, but the clubs should remain
    separate.  Actually, it's been about 15 years since I had exposure to
    these clubs, so correct me if I'm wrong about the patches.
    
    I can also understand the need for single-sex clubs as an adult.  I
    didn't really learn to relate to other women until I joined a sorority
    in college.  Without that Greek influence, I still probably would be
    clueless, as I was in computer science and there weren't many women in
    my classes.  Also, when I moved from PA to MA, I wished that my Alumni
    chapter had been larger/warmer as again, I don't get a chance to
    befriend many women.  I just don't meet that many and the ones that I
    do meet tend to have different interests than I do.  I tried to join my
    alumni chapter in MA but found the women unfriendly.  It would be nice
    if there were perhaps a "women in engineering" club or something like
    that.  So, if men form clubs like the ELKS club, I can understand why. 
    They probably also need to be forced into communication with their own
    sex.  And when you move to a new place, it's really complicated to make
    friends as a pair sometimes.  If your husband/wife doesn't like the
    other person's husband/wife, then the friendship doesn't generally work. 
    
    I hope this makes sense!
    
    Rachael
    

    I am amazed. I thought that I would get lots of vigorous objection to
    any suggestion that the sexes have gender exclusive activities in any
    context.  I am glad that we are in agreement. I also agree that the
    reason that girls may not seem as interested in hard baseball as boys
    because of cultural conditioning and opportunity.  Boys are encouraged
    to join Little League, are girls too?  Jeff

    Jeff -
    
    In re Little League, girls are actively *discouraged* from joining, at
    least in my town.  Until about 10 - 15 years ago, girls were
    specifically not allowed to play, and towns that had co-ed teams were
    kicked out of Little League.  After that, they could play, but only if
    they wore the 'full' uniform, including the protective gear for male
    anatomy.  I don't know if that rule has changed, but the mind-set among
    the governing board probably hasn't.
    
    Alison

    "Including the protective gear for male anatomy".  That sounds like 
    somebodies way of saying 'if you want to act like a male then you must
    wear all the clothing and equipment a male wears'.  I would think that
    few girls would agree to that, and thus be discouraged from joining.
    Crude but probably effective.  Thats the equivalent to asking a boy
    to wear a bra to join a girls softball team.
    
    I have mixed feelings.  On one hand as we already agreed it seems 
    appropriate to have some teams which are gender specific.  Perhaps a
    solution would be two types of Little League.  A gender specific league
    and a co-ed league. The kids could pick which they wanted to join.
    
    Jeff

    >> After that, they could play, but only if
    >> they wore the 'full' uniform, including the protective gear for male
    >> anatomy.  
    
    Should we ask male womannoters to wear bras?
    
    Dale

rre: Dale

Yes!
	Mez

    Thats great, NOW I have to wear a bra, (laughter, smiles). Then any of
    you Womannoters who take part in Mennotes will be expected to, um, wear
    male protective equipment. Ok?  Jeff

    As long as it's silk and someone else buys it   ;)
    
    !
    

    Sure, but I thought we were using euphamisisms here.  How about cup? 
    Which is the correct term for the protective equipment.  Jeff

    I may  be  missing  something here, but I don't remember wearing a
    cup for baseball.  Hockey and Soccer yes, but baseball?

    Yes, a cup is required (for males) on the Little League teams in my
    Town, Salem, New Hampshire.  Jeff
    

    Oh, a cup, no problem.  I usually wear two of 'em.  :^)
    
       Margaret

    Well, you have us guys beat, we only wear one at a time.
    
    We are going down a rathole here, back to the point:
    
    This string seems to pretty much agree with one anothers' views
    on appropriate gender seperation in the context of clubs/sports.
    
    Jeff

	I will staunchly defend the rights of both male and female =wn=ers
to go braless if they so choose...


						--D

    Question.  With the doors to many clubs which excluded excluded women
    finally opened, is it incongruous to still have facilities such
    as certain health clubs which cater exclusively to women?  And if not,
    doesn't that leave the door open for to helth clubs exclusively for men? 
    Wouldn't that start the circle over again? 
    
    Larry

    Who cares if there are some health clubs (what's a health club anyway?)
    that cater exclusively to either men or women as long as there are also
    health clubs that cater to both?  
    
    re .20, Doug, I guess we all know what you're after.
    
    Lorna
    

re: .7:    
    In re Little League, girls are actively *discouraged* from joining, at
    least in my town.

So, it's kind of like a "courtesy" thing, hmm, Little League is a FBO
activity ("for boys only") where the "moderators" can't prevent a girl
from joining, but can indicate that the "courteous" girl would stick
to the mixed-gender softball leagues.

I suppose it's much clearer now.

Martin.

    Larry
    in re .21
    
    no, becuase health/exercise clubs fall under the 'privacy' laws
    or the 'valid reason by gender laws'...
    
    many wome and men find it more comfortable to exercise in
    sexually exclusive groups....
    so as long as
    
    1. no sex is excluded from exercising at all
    2. there are coed classes for those that prefer them
    
    then, no, sexually exclusive exercise classes are both
    reasonable and to be encouraged.
    
    Bonnie