Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    sorry; this does not sound good.
    see the movie 'true love' (not a great movie, but it deals with
    similar confusions).
    

    
     Scared to death?  Sounds like you have a lot of unanswered questions
    about this relationship.  You say you two communicate very well
    + he is tender + caring?  How about considerate?  A very important
    ingredient for marriage.  Ask him what he believes is enough time
    each day for just being together/quality time etc...
    
      Being 31 yrs old and still out partying with friends past midnite
    several nites a week seems a bit old to me for that.   What happens
    when your 8 months pregnant + need him for something...chances are
    he'll be out somewhere.....
                                         
       From what you say....maybe your being "scared to death" is that
    voice inside telling you something....listen to it....
    
       Just make sure you understand how he really feels about marriage.
    
    take care + good luck....
    

    
    A few questions occurred to me reading your note:-
    
    Why is it that, with your SO spending his time as he does now, you've
    been able to discern that he's a good enough guy to commit yourself
    to - and yet, his continuing to spend his time like that would not
    be "good enough" after you're married? 
    
    - Did you accept his proposal believing that he'll automatically 
      prioritise time with you when you're married?
    - Why should being married make a difference?
    
    'gail
    
    

    
    
    I can relate to your situation, but we are not planning on marrying
    for at least two years.  Ever since I have known him, we each have
    made it a point of spending at least two nights a week together
    just for us.  Sure that may not seem like much, but each of us
    have outside interests that take us out a couple nights a week.
    
    Have you ever gone to the games with him?  Does he want you to?
    Every so often I will go to one of John's hockey games and hang
    out with his friends.  Of course we don't stay out past 11:00
    except maybe once in a great while.  He does the same with me.
    
    I guess it really depends on how secure you feel in the relationship
    and how secure you feel spending time away from him.  Our relationship
    has lasted 4.5 years to date with a few interruptions.  We have been
    operating like this from the very beginning.  I do not expect, nor
    do I want, to have him with me all the time.  Mind you I love the
    man dearly, but I like my space.  
    
    Since your fiance has been doing this for some time, chances are he
    is not going to automatically change his ways.  If you really have
    a problem with this figure out what you want to do about it.  Don't
    wait for him to make any changes.
    
    Good luck,
    Michele

If your are 'scared to death' of getting married, don't do it.  I know. It's
not as simple as it sounds, but that's what it boils down to.

You ask in your title if it's wrong to want more time with your fiance.  It's
not. It's also not wrong of him to be cautious of giving it.  It sounds like
he has some built-in assumptions about the amount of time 'a wife' will require
and that it scares him.  He needs re-assurance that you will not demand more 
than he feels comfortable giving.

I'd say negotiate for any additional time you want with him now, before the
wedding, and not make 'after the wedding' promises.  If he is uncomfortable
giving you the time now, he will resent it afterward [or so I would imagine].
Don't get married until you are both comfortable with the amount of time you
have together and apart.

As you know, marriage will, over time, bring up any number of conflicts as you
both change and grow.  It's best to get as many expectations and conflicts as 
you can resolved before marrying. [obviously not _all_ of them, but this one 
sounds important to you, so I'd give it priority]

  Annie

    You sound as though you're building *your* free time around his free
    time.  (Changing the nights you spend together according to the game
    schedule.)
    
    Are you developing your own interests and hobbies?  Perhaps your fiance
    senses that you're building your world around his and is feeling
    pressure in that arena.
    
    Have you asked your fiance what he considers "enough" time apart?  If
    you look at the relationship as one involving 3 parts - you, your
    fiance and the 2 of you as a couple - is each part getting sufficient
    attention, or is there an imbalance?
    
    Everyone has different ideas of "alone time", and as other have said,
    unless this is clarified *now*, it will probably add more stress to the
    relationship.
    
    No, it's not wrong of you to want more time with your fiance.  Both of
    you need to talk about your "comfort zones" and find something that
    works for both of you.
    
    Judi
    

Your honey sounds like he spends time the way folks back in Pottsville, PA do
(where my honey grew up).

My guess: me keeps talking about time away because he's afraid you'll try to
take it away from him. It's certainly the marriage stereotype, and in
Pottsville, it's a part of the culture.

One thing you said made my knees jerk: you tried to talk him out of going to
the places he likes, and into going to a place you find acceptable (bar vs
pizza joint). If my sweetie started trying to convince me to spend the time I
spend with others differently, we'd need a good sit-down talk. My time without
him is mine, and I spend it as I like.

Ditto on the point about things changing after marriage; don't bet on it. It's
a joke; the guys go out to Julian's "for a quick one", and come home at 3:30am.
Both sides play into this pattern; the women won't hear "I'll be out all night
sweetie", and the men can't take the heat for telling the truth. On the other
side, the men don't know how to find out what the real needs being expressed
are, and the women don't know how to talk about their needs in "I" phrases.

>    I
>    guess i just need to understand why he seems to never really feel like
>    he has spent enough time with his friends.  

Gosh, I never get tired of mine, and I don't really know why. They're my
friends. I love them.

>Why do some men feel like they need to escape. 

Because they're feeling trapped. Why is he feeling trapped? What is he feeling
trapped by? But more importantly, what's _your_ need? 

>He asked me
>    to marry him, it was his idea, why do I feel like I am doing something
>    wrong by wanting to spend quality time with him  too?

Why aren't you spending quality time with him? Instead of asking him to 'cut
back on his friends', start working on the real problem: how to spend quality
time together. 
	Mez

    It sounds like it isn't just the amount of time he spends away from
    you that is bothering you, but how he spends it.  I agree with Mez
    that it is his business.  Can you accept the part of him that likes
    to hang out at a dive?  Is this saying something to you about who
    he is that you don't like?  I think you should work out an agreement
    about how many nights you spend together, but as to how the other
    nights are spent, I don't think you should try to change that.
    	Linda

    
    see also:
    
    Human_Relations
    573 - how much time together is enough
    
    -Jody
    

    One of the hardest things for me about my divorce was giving up going
    to sleazy bars to hang out with the team after rugby games.  The sport
    didn't matter, and I didn't play.  Instead, I'm the ultimate fan.
    
    Obviously, this is an activity which is important to him.  Equally
    obviously, it is upsetting to you.  For the relationship to grow, the
    two of you need to figure out how to deal with the dynamic of what's
    yours, what's his, and how you find places that are 'ours'.  Perhaps the
    first step is to figure out what really bothers you about how he is
    spending time when he isn't with you.  I've got a sense it isn't really
    the bar, but rather the frequency and duration and timing.  It could be
    totally sober and meeting in church and you'd still be upset.
    
    One good starting point might be to extract your original note and let
    him read it.  It's possible that he doesn't understand the
    'mixed-upness' that comes through there.  And that may be your best
    place to begin.
    
    Alison

    The following response is from the basenote author:                    
    
    ====================================================================
    

    I don't want him to cut back on his friends.  I just want to feel
    satisfied about the time he spends with them.  (A side note to this is,
    he told me agrees and understands how I feel, he is willing to see my
    side and to compromise as I have.  I am scared because of exactly what
    one reply stated.  If he is not comfortable with this years later it
    will come back to haunt us.)  I have not "told" him what to do, but
    merely suggested things that would make me feel more comfortable. I
    also ask him to reverse the situation.  EXAMPLE:  After school one
    night I go out with a group of school friends, we stop at the local pub
    for a drink.. would you (he) want me sitting at a bar? His hesitates
    and says "honestly, no."  I said would you want me to come home at
    11:00 2 or 3 nights a week, having been out partying with my friends? 
    his answer "No."   After this discussion he told me he understood.  The
    conclusion was we would try to be more considerate of each others
    feelings.  He said he never really took a look at people around him,
    and now that he has he understand what I am saying.

    It is a given that we all love our friends very much, and we enjoy the
    time we can spend with them.  However, we all eventually (those of us
    who marry) marry our best friend.  The person we have chosen to spend
    the most percentage of time with, even if that is 60/40. I can't agree
    with people who think the other way around.  But different the
    different things work for different people. I would think is those
    cases  dating surfices.   My fiance agrees with me. He has told me that
    he has waited  a lot of years to find some one who allows him to be who
    he is and really enjoys his sports and hobbies.  I explain that I still
    want him to him, and that if he feels he still needs to spend 40/60 we
    can hold off on getting married and continue dating.  Because I do want
    to spend a good amount of time with him, we have the greatest time
    together, we have similiar interests and laugh a lot.  He agrees.  And
    admitted last night he was scared to, but that he wanted to grow up and
    didn't want to be out drinking and partying all the time, because he
    wasn't relaly being himself.  I told him that anytime he wanted to we
    could all get together and go out (his friends and SO's) and that there
    are always times when guys need "guy's" nights out and I can understand
    as long as I know he also enjoys spending time with me. I want him to
    be very comfortable in this relationship.  Contrary  to a few views
    marriage does change your life, hopefully for the better.

    I know this is the person I want to marry, and I don't want him to
    change but to compromise, as I have.  I do go to his games sometimes
    and we do spend time with his friends and their SO's after games.  I
    just want my fiance to feel secure with the fact that just because he
    may have to go to his fathers birthday party instead of staying after a
    softball game to drink with his friends, or even to just come home and
    sit and watch Monday night football with me-- its okay.  His friends
    will still be friends.  Just as when he has an all night Stag party and
    doesn't get to see me that night, that I will still love him.

    I guess the word I am looking for is compromise, not change. 
    Flexibility and respect of the others feelings.  We are planning on
    moving out of my home town closer to his, it means an adjustment for
    me, applying to a college closer to my new home, new friends, new
    leagues, etc.  I just need for him to be sympathetic to the transition
    of all of this, and for him to be really sure he wants to be married.

    I just don't know how I can be sure when he really feels "comfortable".


    

    re. 12
    
    just a few small points: 
    
    you _are_ asking your fiance to change.  in any compromise some change
    is made or some ground is given.  if there wasn't movement by one or
    both parties there wouldn't be any compromise.
    
    among people I have known, across national, generational, cultural
    boundaries marriage didn't effect an immediate change in what they
    wanted out of life.  it certainly effected an immediate change [of one
    sort or another] in how they lived it.  changes in wants came by
    a slow and gradual process.  if one starts a relationship feeling
    crowded or threatened in one's wants, it can hamper a convergence of
    wants/needs.
    
    how will you know when he's completely comfortable? probably you won't
    ever have absolute assurance.  however, a _very_ good indication that
    you have now entered the comfort zone will be when he stops seeking the
    re-assurance that he will be able to have the time apart.
    
    hang in there.
    
       Annie

    What I don't understand is why in "change" such a tabu word when it
    relates to marriage.  Our whole lives we spend changing and growing.
    We change when we go to school, when we get new jobs, change careers.
    If our coach tells us to change position from 1st to 3rd base we agree.
    If our friends say lets not go to that bar its a dive we say okay
    and choose another place.
    
    Yet when a spouse or close SO suggests it we cringe and shutter at
    the thought.. how dare this individual suggest I do something else,
    they will not suffocate me.  I have on several occasions had friends
    disagree with me on what movie to go see, but I don't say well its
    my life I can do what I want to do... frig you, I am indepedent and
    I will go see whatever movie I want.  Instead maybe lets see this movie
    today and the other movie next week.
    
    Someone in one note said its the "all me--screw you" generation and
    I am beginning to see why.  Having been married before I was guilty
    of the same.  I want it all and I want it now. The house, the new
    cars, the loving, the caring, my independence.. and what I ended up
    with was misery.  Life is full of changes and compromises.  With
    1 out of every two marriages ending in divorce you would think that
    people would begin to take a long hard look at why?
    
    if you've grown up in a large family you know that there is always
    give and take.  Why do we feel that once we are married it is the
    first place to start a "dictator" domination.  In my estimation it
    is no different than trying to work things out with neighbors, or
    co-workers.  We spend more of our day with co-workers than we do
    with SO's, and we expend more energy making work relations work
    than we do SO relations.  
    
    8:30 a.m.
    
    >>>>  Sally would you mind turning your phone down its a little
          loud?   
    
   >>>>>  No Problem Ruth.
    
    
    
    
    7:30 p.m.
    
    
    >>>>>>  Honey would you mind turning the TV down I am on the phone
    
    
    >>>>>   Cripe can't even watch TV, your always telling me what
            to do.
       
    
    I just think it is sad that so many people feel "its my life I can
    do what I want."  Instead of its our life and we should give
    and take.  I am not flaming at anyone in particular, but rather
    trying to understand why the need for independence is so much
    stronger in marriage, than it is any where else in our lives.
    
    
    I am as guilty of it as the next person.  But should I expect
    to be allowed to do what ever I want just because my SO is not with 
    me?  Is it so difficult to think, heck maybe this bothers the
    person that I care about very much, and its really no big deal
    if I go to Houlighans instead of Bill's slurp and burp!  Or
    should I say "I'm numero uno" ... "Its my life", "tough to your
    feelings bucko!"
    
    Sorry this has gotten a little extreme, having been through a marriage
    where I basically made all of those mistakes I have described, it
    hits home.  I look forward to being able share the same trip with
    someone to our goals, instead of you take Highway A, cause I am
    independently taking Highway B.
    
    My .02
    
    

    
    re: .14 great note, thanks.
    
    just watchin' on the sidelines...
    
    CQ

    Reading this note reminded me os something a friend said to me after my
    divorce 12 years ago.  Marrying someone is like buying a piece of
    second hand furniture.  You can paint it, you can clean it up, but if
    it isn't good and solid underneath, you can forget it.
    
    Kind of like, what you see is what you get.
    
    Think real hard about entering a lifelogn commitment if you have
    serious doubts now.  You can't change someone unless they want to
    change.
    
    Perhaps I am wrong about this other idea also, but could there be a
    problem related to alcohol or drugs which may be the real underlying
    drive for independence, etc.
    
    Whatever you decide to do, just be really sure.
    

    
     To .14  Well Said !!!     Relationships need consideration + giving as
    well as taking.   We are all self-centered varying degrees, but those
    who are too much so........are destined to end up alone.
    
    Jack
    

Oh course. And those that repress their needs in order to fit a mold end up
miserable. There are a lot of good platitudes about the extremes. It's tough to
help this woman figure out just where she is on her personal scale.
	Mez

    
    .14, thank you, I needed that.
    
    

    re: .19
    
    good question?  For 7 years I revolved my life around the men I was
    loving.  I needed no space, I wanted no space, I had no identity unless
    they were around!  They gave me who I was, told me what I wanted and
    needed (can you say "DEPENDENT?"  - I knew you could!)
    
    Now?  I NEED space sometimes - I need time alone - time with friends -
    time away from work - time away from everything.  I have come to
    cherish the things I plan and carry out - my hobbies, building skills,
    building friendships.....
    
    I think if more women recognized their own self-worth - and how vital
    it is for them to cherish and nurture themselves, and to cultivate
    their own strengths, beliefs, dreams.....they would find their lives
    having more direction, feel themselves reaching goals THEY set out for.  
    
    The hook with relating ENTIRELY to another person is that when they win
    - you win - but when they lose - because you are SO hooked into them,
    you lose as well.  And if they aren't going to run their lives
    properly, you are unhappy with them.  You suffer needlessly....it
    wasn't your fault and you often can't make it all better if it's THEIR
    life you are pinned to.....
    
    -Jody
    

    Re: .19
    
    > The normal routine of spending non-work time almost exclusively
    > together sometimes results in having very little to say that the
    > other is not already aware of ...  How long can two people spend
    > almost all their spare time together before neither one has anything
    > "new" to bring to the time spent together?  Didn't any woman ever
    > wish her man would go out and develop an independent interest if
    > only so that he would have something more interesting to discuss
    > than work, the in-laws and their mutual friends?
    
    Well, we may be an exception, but my husband and I have spent almost
    all of our spare time together for the last 18+ years.  We used to work
    for the same companies in the same buildings and even had lunch
    together as well as commuting together.  We have common hobbies which
    we enjoy together.  My husband has never been a sports freak (i.e. has
    to watch football or baseball, etc. games on TV and ignore everyone
    else) or had to spend time with friends.  We are best friends and find
    quite a bit to talk about, and find new ideas to explore together.
    
    So to answer your questions:  for the first one I'd say more than 18
    years (I'll hope to be exploring the answer to that one for a long
    time!); and for the second one I'd say no - I like him spending all his
    time with me and we have a lot more to discuss than work, in-laws, and
    friends.
    
    						Jan

    Re: .24
    
    It seems that my milage varies with quite a few people.  We do talk
    about a lot more than maintenance of property.
    
    > eagles are pleased somebody stays together and has kids
    
    This brings up another point - we don't have kids (unless 3 horses and
    9 dogs count :-).  That might make a big difference.

    re .24, she probably found you just as boring as you found her, if all
    you wanted to do was go hunting and to car races.  (Do you really go to
    rock concerts? and fool around?)  (sorry)  But, boredom can be mutual.
    
    re .25, nah, .24 didn't have kids either.
    
    I don't blame .0 for being concerned.  If my fiance was obsessed with
    not having any free time after marriage, I might be tempted with giving
    him all the free time he ever wanted forever.  I don't think couples
    need to be together constantly but if they don't spend a certain
    percentage of time together, what's the sense in bothering to be a
    couple?  If I were going to be left alone most of the time, I'd rather
    just be single and be done with it, so that I could do whatever I felt
    like doing when I was on my own (without guilt).
    
    Lorna
      

    
    
    It seems to me that the important thing here is not whether it's right
    or wrong for one member of a couple to want lots of time out with
    friends; the important thing is can the basenoter get what she needs from
    this relationship?  I think people have different levels of
    needing-to-be-togetherness, and the trick is to find someone who has
    a need for that that is compatible with yours.  I think a first step
    for the basenoter might be to figure out what it is she really wants
    and needs from this man.  And then ask for it -- directly-- and see if 
    it's possible.  I agree with a point Mez made a while back that how
    this man spends his time with his friends is really his business, but I
    think it's so easy when you're feeling sad and neglected to judge what
    it is this person is doing with time that you think should be *yours*! 
    Why is he out drinking over-priced beer in a smokey bar when he could
    be home with me?  It's hard not to feel resentful, but I think it's
    that under-the-surface resentment that can really destroy a
    relationship.  It sounds like you've started talking about this.  I
    encourage you to keep figuring out what it is you want and keep talking
    to your partner about it.  About getting married:  I think the most
    important information you have about this is your own feelings about
    it.  If you're feeling worried or scared, wait.
    
    Justine  one who once didn't wait even though she was worried and
             scared and had a long time to recover from it...
                                                               

    To the basenoter - (IMO) Run for your life.  It seems obvious to me you
    and your fiance have different priorities at this point in your lives. 
    His #1 is his relationships with his buddies; yours is your
    relationship with him.  Until or unless his changes, to make a
    relationship with a woman #1, any relationship will fail.
    
    By #1 I don't mean giving up all outside interests by either one of
    you.  What I do mean is taking the time, spending the required
    attention to the relationship so that both you and he are satisfied. 
    That is what loving is about.  Yes, it means making changes in your
    lives, BOTH OF YOUR LIVES.  Too often,  it is one or the other that
    does the changing, accomodating.  That is when trouble starts,
    resentments build, and misunderstandings occur.  HE must also be
    willing to realize that, yes indeed, being in a love relationship with
    a woman might entail changing some of his nights out with his buddies. 
    To me, that is a sign of maturity.
    
    A close relative of mine is in a relationship that sounds very similar
    to yours.  She has been married for about ten years, and there are two
    children now.  If you think you've got problems now, wait until a child
    comes on the scene.  It makes "free" time that much more precious, and
    scarce.  It also can create incredible tensions and resentments in a
    situation such as yours.  You cannot assume things will "get better" in
    terms of time together when you are married.  Problems such as these
    seldom work themselves out for the better by themselves.  You and he
    should sit down and be honest about your feelings, and your
    expectations of each other.
    
    Ask yourself: is the relationship, making it work, building on it, a
    number one priority with him?  
    

    
    re .0
    
    I have another way of looking at this.  I'll try to be brief.  
    I moved to MA from PA almost 3 years ago to work for Raytheon, (I was
    straight out of college).  I didn't know a soul.  I threw myself into
    work, a health club and church.  Then I met Jon, who is know my
    husband.  I wanted to see him constantly.  I continued to work hard,
    but as we worked together, I saw him during the day, as well as at
    night.  Since I didn't really have any friends, I met his.  Then I
    moved from Framingham area to the north shore of Boston to be closer to
    him.  We talked about marriage alot.  Finally he told me, basically, to
    get a life of my own.  That he did not intend to be the focus of my
    existence.  I needed to develop interests of my own, separate from
    his.  He did not want to be my sole source of entertainment and
    emotional support.  At first I was furious.  How dare he tell me how
    to live my life!  But now I'm grateful.  I now am a fuller person with
    a relationship with *myself*.  Perhaps, your fiance is trying to say
    the same thing subtley.  (excuse my spelling)  I don't know your
    situation, but you need to have a full sense of who you are before
    creating a real "us".  At least now, I have alot more confidence.  I
    know that if my relationship with Jon deteriorated, I would still have
    myself and MY interests.  
    
    Rachael