Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Actually....yes!
    
    I have a friend whose mother was a librarian.  For 25 years she raised
    her children, and let her husband bring home most of the bacon.  Until
    he told her he had been sleeping with a woman at work for the past 6
    years (and he waited until both of the children were away at college to
    bring up this little gem....), and that he wanted a divorce.
    
    She could have given in.  But instead, she decided she wanted a career
    (needed one anyway to support herself at that point), and she decided
    on law (environmental law, as it turned out).  She got much of the
    money for the tuition from financial aid, and some from taking out
    loans against her house (which she got in the divorce settlement).  The
    childrens' tuition was agreed on as the father's contribution, so she
    doesn't have to worry about a majority of their expenses.  It hasn't
    been easy for her - a total change of pace, a change of life,
    encountering many younger people in her classes and I'm sure some age
    barriers (and perhaps even barriers of sexism, I think).  But she's
    sticking with it.  
    
    No doubt it helps her focus that one of the children is now through
    college, the other has a few years to go, but she does not have to
    support them too much.  Having equity in the house, she can probably
    finish her degree and then pay off the loans afterwards.
     
    There are many people I know who don't know what they want to do, or
    feel a vague wonderment as to where they should be, or just a vague
    sense that they're not doing what they were meant to do.  If you feel
    this is right for you, study carefully the method by which you can
    achieve it most successfully, and enlist the help of your
    friends/family/and-any-legal-professionals-you-know.  Get their hints,
    their hugs, their help.  
    
    I'm rooting for you!
    
    -Jody
    

    
    I really can't say what I think any better than Jody did.  Simply, if
    it feels right, go for it.  I'm someone who's almost 40 and still don't
    know what I want to do; but I don't LOVE what I'm doing and that's 
    becoming less acceptable to me.
    
    It's possible that there's a way to do it, and it will occur to you if 
    you keep wondering about it.  I know you've written in here a lot and I 
    think I should know more about you than I do, so I apologize if I ask 
    questions that are inappropriate.  They're not necessarily for you to 
    answer here, but just to consider, if they are applicable to your 
    situation: can your husband take more responsibilty for your children?
    If there is no night school, can you go part-time days?  (Take half a
    course load, perhaps, and work half time, or take 1/4 load and work a 
    three-quarter day...)
    
    CQ 

    
    from a purely idealistic point of view, i think it is never a mistake
    to study the law. we are a society of laws and it's important for
    everyone to understand them.
    

Jody had a small point I wanted to highlight: discuss your alternatives with
someone who's been there (a lawyer). For instance, can you get there via being
a legal aide (is that the right term?), making money and learning while you go?
There must be some association or other that can get you contacts in Utah. I
have a sister-in-law who's a lawyer in PA (she did it the standard way). If you
want to try talking with her, tell me.
	Mez

    Yes, don't give up on that idea.
    
    Now, are there any other schools around that offer law courses?
    
    						Ann B.

    Barb -
    
    Somehow, the idea of law for you seems such a natural outgrowth of some
    of the other things that you have told us you do, that I can see you
    there quite easily.  Please, don't let ageism or sexism be a barrier to
    you.
    
    Somewhere, you must know someone who has a contact into either Legal
    Aid or the Public Defender's office.  Possibly those are the folks you
    should talk to about the alternatives for 1) where you want to go and
    2) how you can get there.  Maybe see if you can work with them
    part-time for a while to see if the law will really be what you want it
    to be for you?  I hear your concern about the need to compromise your
    principles too much or too often in order to survive in the profession.  
    Perhaps that is a way to find out before investing the time, energy, 
    and money in getting your degree.
    
    Best of everything to you, whatever you decide.
    
    Alison

    Starting out in law is tough to find a job and lots of hours.  I'd
    echo the advice to talk carefully with some practicing ones
    (especially recent graduates).
    
    Just the same, I've been tempted to go this route myself.

    
    All I can offer is this advice and story: don't let your age be too
    big a factor.  My mother's cousin who was definitely over 40 and maybe
    closer to 50 has just finished her law degree a year or two ago.  Though
    she got the financial help from her husband that you lack, in my
    conversations with her, it seems she still had the major responsibility
    for household duties and raising 2 teenagers during her time in law school.
    Plus, she has a special needs/learning disabled child.  She went back
    to law school after years of raising her kids into their teenage years.
    I don't know what she's done with the degree since.
    

    To quote the kids in Joannie Caucus' daycare center:
    
    "Ya gotta believe!"

    You may want to check into other options also. By that I mean other
    ways to help women who have had experiences like yours without having
    to be a lawyer. My take is that the legal system has many compromises
    and what is legally required may not be justice. What's that saying"
    "the rich want laws, the poor want justice". The law doesn't seem to do
    a lot for abused women. liesl

If you do go to school full time, check out what kind of support,
financial & otherwise, is available to 'non-traditional' students.

My sister is a single parent, mother of two pre-schoolers, and received
a lot of support from all the schools she applied to in Mass.  In addition,
my mother started college a few years ago and was also accepted as a "non-
traditional' student.  They provide more financial aid, (and help you to
find all that you are eligble for), and relaxed admission rules & regulations.
(ie,  my mother did NOT have to take SAT's or send in a HS transcript).

Whatever you deceide, go for it!  I wish i had the courage to make & stick
to such a change.

Best of luck,

mary

    Think about it, if you decide you want to do it,  spend the time
    necessary to find the support you'll need.  Line up that support and
    then go for it.  It may take a year to get the support lined up.  So
    start right away.  You can spend that time discovering if it is
    possible and making it possible.  If you decide against it, stop.

    A woman I vaguely knew went to medical school (and is now a doctor). 
    She was then a single mom (may still be) and is handicapped.  Her
    family had no money, she had to find it all, somehow.  Now the best
    part. When she decided to become a doctor she was illiterate.  
    She had a ton of stuff to learn, including HOW to learn.  

    I know that because it can be done does not mean we can all do it.  But
    it is inspiring when someone does it.  C'mon Barb, inspire us!

      Margaret 
    

   

From my own experience, I have two thoughts about your goals.  5 years 
ago I was a flight attendant with a major US carrier.  I was and am a 
single parent and at the time I had been flying 15 years.  I share 
custody of my daughters but get no child support so I felt pretty 
locked in to my job and I would have been eligible for some retirement 
benefits in 1991.  I also have a degree in chemistry and had had some 
environment analytical experience and was hoping to become an 
environmental engineer by going back to school when my kids were both 
in school.

During my years as a flight attendant, I became involved with health 
and safety issues.  Flying can be really stressful in lots of ways.
What surprised me was how little was actually known about the various 
types of stress we were subject to.  There was not much information 
available and few resources.  The erosion of safety that resulted from 
de-regulation was also a concern.  By the 1980's there were enough 
flight attendants who had been working long enough to become involved 
and concerned, but in 1986 we had to shift all of our energy and 
resources into survival because we were forced into a strike. 

On a personal level, the strike was a pretty devastating event for me.
It began in March and ended in May, but because we were waiting for 
some legal issues to be resolved, it wasn't clear until August that we 
no longer had jobs. 

In October I went to work for a small plating company, supervising 
their production lab and environmental health and safety.  On Mondays 
and Wednesdays, I took classes so that I could get my industrial waste 
treatment license.  The kids stayed with their dad on school nights 
because I had to leave too early to get them to school.  On nights
I didn't have school, I would pick them up at day care (usually at 
6:30) feed them dinner and try to get them to their dad's by 8:30.
(Quality time!)  
 
By the following summer, I knew that I needed a change for lots of 
reasons.  I was offered and accepted a job at a more local plating 
company.  I also knew about an environmental engineering opening at 
DEC and was really curious about how you might run a waste treatment 
system if you really had the resources so I asked for an interview.  
Imagine my surprise when they offered me the job!  

(This is a lot longer story than I meant it to be) I was at 
DEC for a while and life was a lot more sane with my kids but a friend 
suggested I come with her and register for a class at a local 
university so in a moment of weakness, I did.  I've now got 13 credits 
toward a degree in workplace health and safety. 

So anyway, is it possible to work, go to school and be a single 
parent? . . . Sure!  But my other thought is more concerned with 
whether being a lawyer is an effective way to change things.  

Although I think my interest is more specific than yours is and I was 
fighting for myself, I think we're both concerned about justice. We were 
fortunate in our struggle to have a very dedicated and capable law firm.  
Unfortunately, there are a lot of unjust things that are not necessarily 
illegal.  We have 22 law suits we're involved in.  Several of these have gone 
to the Supreme Court and involve basic and wide reaching labor law issues.  
5 years later we're still awaiting settlement of the cases we won. As of last 
summer everyone has been offered recall.  Although the Supreme Court
ruled that only changes in our contract on the bargaining table at the time 
of the strike are changable, the union must still take each issue to court 
and through endless appeals before anything is implemented.

I don't know that we need more lawyers.  Going to court is a very slow 
and difficult way of resolving issues. I think we need more 
awareness of injustice and less tolerance of it.  We need more 
activists and educators if we want to change things and sometimes 
these are not comfortable roles (and the pay is lousy.) I think there 
are a lot of places or occupations where you can make a difference by 
being aware and caring and by being willing to take some risks.  It's 
probably also important to choose you battles wisely . . . but 
sometimes you don't have a choice.



  


  

    RE: .0
    
    Barb,
    
    I too want to go to law school.  I can't answer your question abuot
    knowing any single mom's that have gone through Law School on a
    part-time basis, while working full time, and being a mom full time.
    
    I can tell you what I looked into.  There are schools that will allow
    you to go part time. Those schools are good schools although they don't
    carry the name that some school do (Washington University, Harvard,
    etc).
    
    Most schools that have any reputation that you would want, do require
    the high GPA/LSAT scores. Athough I qualify with the GPA, I plan on
    taking the prep course (at Harvard) for the LSAT's. If your GPA is
    lower than a 3.8, you need to offset it with EXTREMELY high LSAT
    scores.
    
    DEC does have a program that will allow you to go to law school and
    they pay for it 100%. It's the Patent Attorney Program. It did have 5
    openings this Fiscal Year, I don't know what there openings are for
    next year, its worth checking into though, and they are connected with
    Suffolk Law School.
    
    Personally, I decided I didn't want to take my bar exam with going to
    school part time.  I've decided to wait until 1998, when I can possibly
    take an educational leave from DEC and go full time. Why 1998? Thats
    when my youngest will be 18, and I won't have to worry about raising
    her 100%.
    
    Meanwhile, what I have done is started my Masters (I'm three courses
    short), since DEC paid for it 100%. Then I will have a BS, and an MBA,
    prior to going to law school, since I want to be a corporate lawyer,
    having the MBA is an added plus for me. It also keeps me in the realm
    of studying. When I complete the MBA, I will start on a PhD, not to
    obtain one, but to stay in the mode of being a student.
    
    As a single parent, I find it's do-able, but very tiring at times. I
    tried taking more than one course a semester, and found that even
    though I got B+'s on both courses, I failed, because my girls didn't
    have my time, I could only give my job the required 40 hours (instead
    of the 60-70 hours it normally got - so my boss thought I was not
    meeting his expectations), and a lot of times, I was not giving my
    courses the time and effort it REALLY needed (which is why I didn't get
    an A in either course)
    
    Good luck with whatever you decide and keep us up to date please?
    
    Gale

    
    ...............Just do it.
    
    Kate

I say go for it.  My 34 year-old sister-in-law is a single parent with 2 
children (12 and 13), and she is currently in law school.  They had been living
in East Boston, but Andrea decided she wanted to go to law school, so she 
started saving (it's amazing how that woman can stretch a dollar), and last
summer she packed up the kids and moved to Miami where she was able to buy a
condo and is now attending law school full time.  She has completed her first
year, and has 2 more years to go.  She knew that things would be tight with
her going to school full-time and working part-time, but as she says, it has
been that way for the past few years, and this way she is doing something to
get ahead for herself and for the children.  And her kids are accustomed to
her going to school since she got her Bachelor's degree by going to night
school, so as far as they're concerned, Mom's always been attending school,
and it's no big deal.  

She did get an awful lot of flack from some members of the family, though, who
think that a mother should stay home with her children.  Except I'm not sure
how they expect her to be able to feed and house the children if she's home and
not working to earn a living, but that part somehow got overlooked.  And she's
doing all this to provide a better life for them, too.  Plus, I think it
provides a great role model for the kids since they see that you can always
go after something that you want, and can get it by working towards it.

If you'd like to know about scholarships and law schools, I can put you in 
touch with my sister-in-law.  She knows quite a bit about financing a law
school education, and may be able to give you some pointers.

Best of luck.
Cathy

Barb,

YES! you can do it if you are really determined. 
When my wife, Stacey, went through law school one of her close friends, Judy,
was a single mother ( of 7 year old twins ). Judy went to school full 
time and worked part time for a law journal.  

The hours and work required for a full time law program are demanding.
And, it is very competitive.

Changing the world - it is possible, but ... my observation of my Stacey's work
and her professional cohorts is that it can be a very tough job. Working with
     >>> ... the innocent victims--the 
     >>> battered and abused women, kids, rape victims, and discriminated 
     >>> against in Utah.  
is emotionally draining. 

Stacey is an ex-DEC lawyer, currently working for Sun Microsystems, doing
    contracts and intellectual property work. Her first job was litigating
    claims for an insurance company ( she has spent time in court ).
    
She volunteers as a mentor each year for a law student at Boston University.
If you are interested, I would be happy to ask her to speak with you
about a career in law. (She can be reached via email also.)

			- Joe, an_almost_exclusively_read_only_noter

    I say go for it... you only live once, so you might as well do what
    you want to do.

    Some law schools _do_ have night or weekend courses -- one of my high
    school English teachers went through law school that way (and is now
    a lawyer, which is really too bad because he was an excellent English
    teacher.  But I digress).

    I also know of a woman who went through law school as a single parent
    with three young children.  Even though she ended up graduating last
    in her class, they're very proud of her (~15-20 years later), and feel 
    that it was beneficial to them to learn how to be extra-thrifty then.

	Sharon

    	As I've mentioned a number of times in Womannotes over the years :-),
    	I went through my entire undergraduate degree as a single Mom (with
    	a baby/toddler/pre-schooler/kindergartener.)  I started when Ryan
    	was a year old and finished when he was 5 and a half.  

    	The way I did it was to attend school as a full-time day student with
    	jobs crammed in on the side, instead of the other way around.  It
    	worked out very well for us, although we didn't have much money.

    	We lived in nice, but very (VERY) small studio apartments.  The lack
    	of possessions worked out well for us since we had nowhere to put
    	anything anyway.  We decorated our homes with toys (my parents did
    	have money and bought Ryan a zillion of 'em.)  Our whole apartment
    	was like a play room with a port-a-crib and a mattress and boxspring
    	as furniture when I started college.  We graduated to futons when
    	Ryan outgrew his crib.

    	My strongest memory of early college is studying with my books
    	and papers spread out on the floor (with the baby casually crawling
    	back and forth across the whole ensemble, leaving most of my book
    	covers and papers somewhat sticky.)  ;^)  I also remember my book
    	bag being held together with industrial strength blue diaper pins,
    	and fishing out little cars and plastic toys every time I reached
    	for a pencil in class.

    	But, it was wonderful!!!  I was doing something about our lives.
    	No matter how poor we were, this one thought kept me going and
    	made the sacrifices and difficulties worth it!

    	Now, I'm in school again.  Ryan is 19, and I felt it was time to
    	pursue my Masters.  My first degree is a Bachelor of Arts in
    	Philosophy (1976), so I'm working on a Bachelor of Science in
    	Computer Science now before starting on my Masters in Computer
    	Science in the Fall of 1991 (hopefully.)  It's a long awaited
    	dream of mine that I'm living now.

    	Barb, I wish you the best in whatever decision you make about
    	this!  Going for a dream is wonderful - if it's what you're sure
    	you want, do it!!  My best thoughts are with you!

    Thank you all for your support and valuable feedback!  It is very
    helpful to me.  Since I believe that "what's meant to be is meant
    to be," I intend to take this idea one step at a time.  To this
    end, I have gained the support of three prominent attorneys--one
    is my own attorney (a woman); one is very well known for his success
    in federal discrimination suits and has had some influence with the
    local law school in the past (we sit on several committees together); and
    the last attorney is a personal friend and the former U.S. Attorney
    for the State of Utah.  Each of these individuals believes I would
    be successful and very good in law school.  Next, I have been in
    touch with a woman at the "U" who specializes in working with 
    non-traditional students.  We have a lunch hour meeting next week.
    At that time, I will ask questions and find out about every source
    available to assist me financially, get whatever forms I need, and
    find out more about taking the LSAT.  If I don't do well on that
    test, I may not be able to get in at all and the idea will need
    to be tabled anyway.  Needless to say, I'll do all the entry paperwork,
    send to transcripts, etc.  If I am actually admitted--competition
    being what it is--I'll start worrying about how I can support the
    children and not until then.  Since new law students are only admitted
    Fall semester anyway, they won't let me start until next August,
    so that should give me a reasonable degree of time to work something
    out.    
            
    I am not so foolish as to think I can make a major difference in
    the world of law.  I may not even be able to make a minor difference,
    but if I can even help one innocent person to obtain justice in
    a world of laws, I believe it will be worth it.  I could be wrong.
    Heaven knows, I have been enough times in the past, but I won't
    give up trying until I know it's definitely NOT something I should
    pursue.  My children are very supportive and already my 19 year
    old is saying, "When you're a lawyer, Mom, I think you should defend
    people who are being discriminated against.  They really need somebody
    like you to help them."  When I mentioned that I have yet to be
    admitted, she said, "You will be.  You can do anything!"  How can
    I refute that kind of faith?  
            
    Barb    
            
            

    I also say, Goferit, Barb!  However, if you'd like to get a picture of
    the workload, especially for the first, difficult, year of law school,
    I'd suggest you read "One L" by Scott Turow...available in paperback.
    
    Some of the hoops (thanks, Polly!):
    
    LSAT
    law school admission process
    three years full-time (or four evenings)
    Taking and passing the Bar exam, then swearing in to the Bar
    Getting started in practice, including loooonnnng hours....
    
    I'm signed up for an LSAT prep course next month and the test in
    October, so we'll be on a similar path.
    
    grins,
    Marge
    
    
    
    

    
    A wonderful professor of mine once told me that if you really feel
    called to "help people," your best bet is to become a minister or a
    lawyer, because you can get into jail cells to talk to people who are
    really in trouble.  You won't be able to change the world, Barb, but
    you'll certainly make a difference in the lives of those people who
    get to work with you.  I encourage you to take the path you seem to
    be headed towards: that is, do everything you can to make it possible,
    and then do what feels right when the actual deciding time comes.
    
    Good luck!
    
    Justine

    Sounds like you are making all the right moves and making good (no!)
    astounding progress.

    The LSATs are grueling.  I took 'em 12 years ago but decided not to go
    even after being admitted*.  Mostly I remember being wrung out by the
    length of time they took and feeling exhausted and HUNGRY when they were
    finally over.  But then, they started at 8:00 am and I didn't have time
    to eat beforehand.  I think they lasted 5 or 6 hours.  Felt like 12.

    You can take them more than once but if your score does not
    significantly improve the second time (more than 50 points) it isn't
    worth it.  Why?  Because supposedly, scores improve that much from
    familiarity with the testing procedure. Therefore, I highly recommend a
    course that includes a dry run or getting the LSAT prep book and doing
    a dry run yourself. 

    * I'd already been in college for 9 years at that point, BA and MS, and
    wanted out!!!

      I'm so glad you are going for your dream.

         Margaret

    re .0  Barb, last night I found out exactly how you felt -
    I found myself wishing I was a lawyer so I could go to 
    court and help a friend who got shafted by the legal system.
    (Her jerk of an ex was awarded custody of their two kids based
    on an affadavit that could politely be described as horse
    byproducts. Just reading it made me wonder what kind of idiots
    we have for judges.) 
    
    43 is not too old to start after something you really want. 
    Look at it this way, it only took you 43 years to find out
    what it *is* ;-)
    
    Dana

    
    	Some years back, I saw a movie about a group of women (most in their
    	early 40s.)
    
    	One woman was considering going for a college degree, but thought to
    	herself, "I'll be 46 when I finish it!" (so she hesitated about it.)
    
    	Later, she thought to herself, "I'm going to be 46 anyway..." - so
    	she did what she wanted to do and went for the degree!
    
    	I've always loved this line of thinking.
    

    An update of sorts...I discovered from a new law school graduate
    that a significant number of her classmates were in their 40's and
    50's!  The age never has been a major factor.  It was still maintaining
    a touch of idealism in the face of reality that was a bit disturbing.
    Somehow, I seem too "old" for idealistic thinking.
    
    Anyhow, my friends, I met with the Dean of Admissions (a woman)
    who made me feel more supported and more encouraged about the
    possibilities of law school than the last person I came in contact
    with during my inquiry.  She gave me tips on how to proceed and
    offered her expertise in critiquing my personal statement prior
    to handing it in.  She said it would be hard to get in, but she
    left me feeling it was very, no, VERY possible.  It was just what
    I needed to keep going a little farther in my efforts.
    
    Just thought you'd like to know...
    
    :)Barb

    Barb,
    
    Keep going!
    
    Rooting for you all the way,
    
        Margaret

    I recommend caution.  Sometime things don't look so attractive when you
    actually get into them.  Also there is a serious possibility of
    "burning out".  Law degrees take a long time and a lot of hard work to
    get.  If you are still a student and can pack all your belongings in
    one afternoon, I would say go for it since you can easily switch to
    something else if you change your mind.  Well, just my 2c.
    
    Alf 

  I stole the time this week to go through a practice LSAT test, and
    surprised myself by doing reasonably well.  Not only that, I really
    enjoyed it!  It was one of the most stimulating mind stretchers
    that I've seen for awhile.  Perhaps this really *is* the kind of
    thing I would do well!  Second, I made it a point to go to the U
    of U bookstore today on my lunch hour and buy two likely looking
    LSAT (law school admission test) study guides.  I know that it doesn't
    seem like a big deal, but I got a lot of mileage out of that one
    small step.  It's amazing how much more momentum I feel!  
    
    I just *had* to share it with somebody!  Thanks for listening:)
    
    Barb

    GREAT!
    
    Taking practice LSATs is a great idea.  It's not an easy test and
    the more you practice, the easier it gets to get a better score.
    
    Glad you told us.  Let us know when you get admitted, yes?
    
    GO BARB!      Margaret