| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 274.2 | | 8942::OAKEY | Save the Bill of Rights-Defend the II | Tue Aug 07 1990 12:06 | 5 |
| Worse yet, I'm a woman and my wife's a man!
She'd rather die than ask directions!
Roak
|
| 274.4 | ex | 6317::FOSTER | | Tue Aug 07 1990 12:48 | 16 |
| I know its the very first part of the article, but I wish you guys
could get beyond the first paragraph. I can think of numerous times
when I haven't wanted to get directions and the guy next to me did,
AND vice versa.
But the other parts about communication seem far more telling. The way
women do not directly rebut, but redirect toward another point of view,
for example. I can point out TONS of examples here in the file.
A lot of times, the communications styles of men and women clash, and
they certainly do here. I would think that since this is a file to
celebrate women's styles and interests, the typical communication styles of
women should be better understood by anyone not normally using them
who wants to interact here and be supported.
Then again, some people just come in to stir up trouble...
|
| 274.5 | | 4629::LEVESQUE | Better by you, better than me | Tue Aug 07 1990 13:14 | 22 |
| > But the other parts about communication seem far more telling. The way
> women do not directly rebut, but redirect toward another point of view,
> for example. I can point out TONS of examples here in the file.
Absolutely! As I read the piece, that was what jumped out at me. It could have
been entitled "why men have trouble communicating in =wn=." Given the fact
that the majority of the audience is female, the prevailing communication
style during discussion is the "feminine" style. This does seem to break down
when we get to arguing; we then get to the pronouncements etc that seem to
be more common during male interactive communication.
> A lot of times, the communications styles of men and women clash, and
> they certainly do here. I would think that since this is a file to
> celebrate women's styles and interests, the typical communication styles of
> women should be better understood by anyone not normally using them
> who wants to interact here and be supported.
Excellent point, 'Ren.
Speaking for myself and a few others, it can be a difficult transition.
The Doctah
|
| 274.6 | Practicalities | 42730::DAVIESA | Grail seeker | Tue Aug 07 1990 13:21 | 10 |
|
.0 certainly rang true for me, and is the most succinct explanation of
certain communication patterns that I've seen repeatedly.
So - getting practical....
A question:
How can the people in this conference use this information to encourage
easier communication with others?
'gail
|
| 274.8 | fyi | 17750::B_REINKE | treasures....most of them dreams | Tue Aug 07 1990 13:44 | 5 |
| By the way, there is actually a fairly polite discussion of this
same topic in pear::soapbox. Included in the discussion are some
good examples of both styles of communication.
Bonnie
|
| 274.9 | sounds familiar | 52265::MCDONALD | | Tue Aug 07 1990 13:53 | 3 |
| I especially agree with the part that the woman like to talk about
everything, whereas her partner is often silent except for group
situations. This sounds like my boyfriend and I
|
| 274.10 | | 5468::COHEN | | Tue Aug 07 1990 14:04 | 9 |
|
I posted a reply over in PEAR::SOAPBOX in response to
the conversation there, so I'll hold off a bit.
Ironically, while my ex and I were in marriage counselling,
one of the problems which was pointed out to us is that we
communicated with each other *too* well.
ralph
|
| 274.11 | | 4629::LEVESQUE | Better by you, better than me | Tue Aug 07 1990 14:10 | 6 |
| > Generalizing about groups of people makes many of us nervous. We like
> to think of ourselves as unique individuals, not representatives of
> stereotypes. ****But it is more dangerous to ignore patterns than to
> articulate them.****
This is sage advice, IMO.
|
| 274.12 | pointers | 7691::BOBBITT | water, wind, and stone | Tue Aug 07 1990 15:16 | 11 |
|
see also:
womannotes-v1
654 - men's and women's speaking styles
womannotes-v2
919 - interrupted women
-Jody
|
| 274.13 | | 3230::QUAYLE | i.e. Ann | Tue Aug 07 1990 17:42 | 9 |
| Re .10
> Ironically, while my ex and I were in marriage counselling,
> one of the problems which was pointed out to us is that we
> communicated with each other *too* well.
- how can this be? (Please ignore this question if it's too personal.
aq
|
| 274.14 | just out of curiosity... | GEMVAX::KOTTLER | | Wed Aug 08 1990 10:29 | 7 |
| re .5 -
> Given the fact that the majority of the audience [in =wn=] is female,
Do we know this for a fact?
D.
|
| 274.15 | :-) | REGENT::BROOMHEAD | Don't panic -- yet. | Wed Aug 08 1990 10:55 | 3 |
| It's our "audience"; we'd like to think it's our readership too.
Ann B.
|
| 274.16 | but... | GEMVAX::KOTTLER | | Wed Aug 08 1990 10:58 | 1 |
| well, sure, I like to think so too.
|
| 274.18 | Communication is made up of words *plus* silence | SSGBPM::KENAH | Healing the Fisher King's wound | Wed Aug 08 1990 14:07 | 6 |
| Ralph -- from my vantage point, what you described was not a situation
where communication was too successful -- what you described was a
relationship with no boundaries -- a relationship without privacy
does not support healthy communication --
andrew
|
| 274.19 | Grace paley on the Subject | SSVAX2::KATZ | Ain't I a stinker? | Thu Aug 09 1990 09:31 | 48 |
|
Copied w/o any permission whatsoever from Grace Paley "The Story
Hearer" in her collection "Later the Same Day"
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I woke. Where's that glass of water, I screamed. I want to tell
you something, Jack.
What? What? He saw my wide awake eyes. He sat up. What?
Jack, I want to have a baby.
Ha ha, he said. You can't. Too late. A couple of years too late,
he said, and fell asleep. Then he spoke. Besides, supposed it worked; I
mean, suppose a miracle. The kid might be very smart, get a scholarship to
MIT and get caught up in problem solving and godalmighty it could invent
something worse than any of us old dodos ever imagined. Then he fell
asleep and snored.
I pulled the Old Testament out from under the bed where I keep most
of my bedtime literature. I jammed an extra pillow under my neck and sat
up almost straight in order to read the story of Abraham and Sarah with
interlinear intelligence. There was a lot in what Jack said - he often
makes a sensible or thought-provoking remark. Because you know how that
story ends - well! With those three monotheistic horesmen of perpetual
bossdom and war: Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
Just the same, I said to softly snoring Jack, before all that
popular badness wedged its way into the world, there *was first* the little
baby Isaac. You know what I mean: looking at Sarah just like all our own
old babies - remember the way they practiced their five little senses. Oh,
Jack, that Isaac, Sarah's boy - before he was old enough to be taken out by
his father to get his throat cut, he must have just lain around smiling and
making up diphthongs and listening, and the women sang songs to him and
wrapped him up in such pretty rugs. Right?
In his sleep, which is as contentious as his waking, Jack said yes
- but he should not have been allowed to throw all that sand at his brother
You're right, you're right. I'm with you there, I said. Now all
you have to do is be with me.
p.s. I met her once at school -- she's an amazing person!
|
| 274.21 | | TCC::HEFFEL | Sushido - The way of the tuna | Tue Aug 14 1990 18:18 | 46 |
| Sorry but for me the article is utter bull-hockey.
While it is true that Gary would die rather than ask directions and
I'm the one who always says "why don't you call and ASK what the store hours
are?". Our reasons have nothing to do with loss of face or hierarchical play,
fer Chrissakes. Gary is an EXTREME introvert. He hates parties, fears the
telephone, and gets almost physically ill when forced to interview. I on the
other handam a strong extrovert. (and by the way I'M the one who HATES to lose
face. I have a mental image of myself as extrememly competent.) (Asking for
directions, I would not consider a loss of face though...) I have no desire
to make some fleeting contact with some faceless cretin on the street. I just
want to get there and since Gary is too damned shy and I'm the more impatient
of the two of us, I'll ask.
Further, Gary talks to make connections, I give commands. Gary avoids
conflict. I'll rip someone's throat out verbally without even meaning too when
rebutting a point. No hostility meant, just my non-gender typical way. :-)
I drive Gary crazy, 'cause he just wants to complain about work, while
I feel compelled to tell him his boss's side. (Just had another argument about
that last weekend as a matter of fact.
I could go on and on... (What do you mean I already did?! :-) )
I *HATE* articles like this. Rather than telling us that women talk
like X and men talk like Y. How about.... Here are some communication styles.
Here are things to help you recognize and deal with people who use a
communication that is not your preferred/natural one. (I'm thinking about
things like the Myers-Briggs personality indicator that I find MUCH more
useful.)
You apply this stereotype to me and you'll get your feelings hurt FAST
when dealing with me. I'm a deal with issues not people sort of person.
And women aren't supposed to be that way, so if I'm insensitive, it can't be
because I'm not good at that, it must be that I MEAN to insult you.
BAH!
Grump, Grump!
Stupid stereotypes!!!!
Tracey
|
| 274.22 | | YGREN::JOHNSTON | bean sidhe | Wed Aug 15 1990 09:31 | 26 |
| re.21
Tracey,
I believe that you hit a few good points, perhaps unaware.
In any study of behaviour, groupings will occur around like attributes of the
individuals tested. To view all individuals as separate and unique entities
is valuable if the end is individual interaction, but anarchy for the purpose
of study. Yet these studies do have value.
The fallacy is not in saying 'women tend to connectedness in communicating...'
The foolishness is in saying 'women are not _supposed_ to ...' when they are
not conforming to type. [any attribute can be substituted].
Stereotyping is not necesarily bad. We all acquire our filters as we pass
through life -- like 'engineers have tunnel vision' or 'cats are uppity' --
and they help us make preliminary judgements on approach and style in our
interactions.
The tragedy is to take the stereotype and either force conformity [in our minds
or in fact] or reject the atypical individual as somehow 'wrong.' To take such
a narrow stance is to reject our own special humanity for we are each atypical
in some way.
Annie
|
| 274.23 | | TCC::HEFFEL | Sushido - The way of the tuna | Thu Aug 16 1990 10:05 | 34 |
| I realize the value of generalities. They give you a starting point.
A framework upon which to start your interaction. But in any individual
interaction they become far too binding too quickly.
I really despise studies/articles that place so much weight on gender
in their conclusions without giving any kind of numbers to support the
tendency. This article would not nearly have been so objectionable to me if
it had presented two communications styles and then in passing had said that
while say 70% females preferred communication style A only 45% of males used it.
An example that I actually happen to know the numbers for: The Myers
Briggs Personality Indicator. The M-B categorizes people by their preferences
around 4 duplets. Introvert vs. Extrovert, Intuitive vs. Sensing, Thinking vs.
Feeling, and Judging vs. Perceiving. The stereotype says that women are more
feeling oriented than thinking oriented. Not terribly surprisingly, the M-B
research bears this tendency out. BUT... Only 60% of women prefer a feeling
style. 40%, almost half, prefer the thinking style. This seems to me to show
that this generalization (women prefer a feeling style) is not a particulalry
useful one, since it will lead to the wrong conclusion almost half the time.
Not much better than flipping a coin. (and, oh by the way, about 40% of males
prefer the Feeling style. How many of you would have guessed that based on the
prevalent gender stereotypes?) The M-B people present this information
in a style that I find very reasonable. They talk about the duplets, how they
affect people's outlook on life, reactions to other people and other styles and
so on. Then in a sort of "footnote style", they mention that the gender
preference on this is... It keeps the focus on people and individuals while
still recognizing a trend.
I guess I'm just particularly sensitive to this because I always seem
to fall into the 40% or 25% or 2% that doesn't follow the trend. You get tired
of being told you're weird (even if you are :-) ).
Tracey
|
| 274.24 | Works for me | POLAR::PENNY | Find me in my field of grass | Fri Aug 17 1990 09:28 | 27 |
| For me the root note makes a lot of sense. My wife and I have had some ups
and downs, which has lead to problems of "lack of togetherness or closeness".
(We've been married thirteen years this November.) She had turned to friends
and relatives for companionship because she felt we were not mentally intimate
(any longer). I'm finding out that this was mostly due to communication. A
*lot* of our secondary and tertiary problems had been caused by the _way_ we
talk, as described in .0. I can really relate to some of the examples given.
Counseling has helped somewhat, but also as of late (a few weeks ago) we
decided to do some "self help" of our own, so we went to the library to do
some of our own research. We've got a couple of books on marriage and one that
I found very enlightening was "Husbands & Wives". (The authors are two (male)
Psychologists.) This book is (partly) about communication in marriage.
It's funny how reading something like this book and the base note put
things into perspective. It's like getting hit in the forehead with a sledge
hammer. We are (in the last few months) on the road to recovering our unity
and relationship, and boy does it feel good!
I don't want to rattle on about whats already been said in many places in
this notesfile, but I just wanted to say; hey, this is good stuff, and I'm
glad someone who has either gone through this before, or has found some
valuable information (to me it's valuable) has the foresight to enter things
like this into this medium so I may learn. Keep at it.
dep
|
| 274.26 | Interesting, Reference? | CASEE::MCDONALD | | Wed Aug 29 1990 13:38 | 1 |
| Do you have any references for this Myers-Briggs stuff?
|
| 274.27 | Reference Book | SAGE::SZKLARZ | Can't you hear? My silence screams! | Wed Aug 29 1990 14:05 | 18 |
|
Just so happens that in my office I have a copy of
TYPE TALK *
* Or How to Determine your personality type
and Change your life.
(based on the Myers_Briggs Typr Indicator tm)
By Otto Kroeger and Janet M. Thuesen
While it doesn't contain the test it does give a lot insight to
the "types". Somewhere I think I have an abbriviated copy of the
test. I'll enter it if/when I find it.
LSN
|
| 274.28 | | LDYBUG::GOLDMAN | Amy, whatcha gonna do? | Wed Aug 29 1990 15:25 | 35 |
| There's a one-day course called "Introduction to Myers-Briggs
Type Inventory in Career Development" being offered in Shrewsbury
in late September. Deadline for registration is Friday (I'm not
sure if it's full or not). The following is the course
description:
INTENDED AUDIENCE:
This basic course is intended for individuals who are considering a career
transition or are evaluating their career paths.
COURSE CONTENT:
The workshop introduces the Myers-Briggs Type Inventory as a model to help you
better understand yourself and to begin to guide you through career transitions
and the identification of compatible work settings.
What is the Myers Briggs Type Inventory (MBTI)?
MBTI is a tool, based on the work of Carl Jung, which focuses on the
multiple ways people experience and respond to the world. It is a tool
which has been used extensively in business, health care, government
and academic settings to help individuals understand where they like
to focus their attention, the way they like to take in information and
make decisions, and the kind of workstyle that is most comfortable to them.
Through a confidential multiple-choice self-assessment which is taken before
the seminar, you will receive 'type' feedback, which is the combination and
interaction of your chosen preferences. The seminar will provide you with the
opportunity to explore and understand the implications of your own as well as
others' 'types' and how to start thinking broadly of careers that naturally
suit who you are.
|
| 274.29 | "a sorter" | SAGE::SZKLARZ | Can't you hear? My silence screams! | Wed Aug 29 1990 15:52 | 354 |
| Found it! It is from the book:
PLEASE UNDERSTAND ME By Keirsey & Bates
To interpret the test I also included the "sorter" sheet. I think it's
pretty self explanatory, but if not let me know and I'll try to dechiper
it.
LSN
The KEIRSEY TEMPERAMENT SORTER
=============================
1. At a party do you:
a) interact with many, including strangers
b) interact with few, known to you
2. Are you more
a) realistic then speculative
b) speculative than realistic
3. Is it worse to:
a) have you head in the clouds
b) be "in a rut"
4. Are you more impressed by
a) principles
b) emotions
5. Are you more drawn toward the
a) convincing
b) touching
6. Do you prefer to work
a) to deadlines
b) just "whenever"
7. Do you tend to chose
a) rather carefully
b) somewhat impulsively
8. At parties do you
a) stay late, with increasing energy
b) leave early, with decreased energy
9. Are you more attracted to
a) sensible people
b) imaginative people
10. Are you more interested in
a) what is actual
b) what is possible
11. In judging others are you more swayed by
a) laws than circumstances
b) circumstances than laws
12. In approaching other is you inclination to be somewhat
a) objective
b) personal
13. Are you more
a) punctual
b) leisurely
14. Does it bother you more having things
a) incomplete
b) completed
15. In your social groups do you
a) keep abreast of other's happening
b) get behind on the news
16. In doing ordinary things are you more likely to
a) do it the usual way
b) do it your own way
17. Writers should
a) "say what they mean and mean what they say"
b) express things more by use of analogy
18. Which appeals to you more
a) consistency of thought
b) harmonious human relationships
19. Are you more comfortable in making
a) logical judgments
b) value judgments
20. Do you want things
a) settled and decided
b) unsettled and undecided
21. Would you say you are more
a) serious and determined
b) easy going
22. In phoning do you
a) rarely question that it will all be said
b) rehearse what you will say
23. Facts
a) "speak for themselves"
b) illustrate principles
24. Are visionaries
a) somewhat annoying
b) somewhat fascinating
25. Are you more often
a) a cool-headed person
b) a warm hearted person
26. Is it worse to be
a) unjust
b) merciless
27. Should one usually let events occur
a) by careful selection and choice
b) randomly and by chance
28. Do you fell better about
a) having purchased
b) having the option to buy
29. In company do you
a) initiate conversation
b) wait to be approached
30. Common sense is
a) rarely questionable
b) frequently questionable
31. Children often do no
a) make themselves useful enough
b) exercise their fantasy enough
32. In making decision do you feel more comfortable with
a) standards
b) feelings
33. Are you more
a) firm than gentle
b) gentle than firm
34. Which is more admirable
a) the ability to organize and be methodical
b) the ability to adapt and make do
35. DO you put more value one the
a) definite
b) open-ended
36. Does new and non-routine interaction with others
a) stimulate and energize you
b) tax your reserves
37. Are you more frequently
a) a practical sort of person
b) a fanciful sort of person
38. Are you more likely to
a) see how others are useful
b) see how others see
39. Which is more satisfying
a) to discuss an issue thoroughly
b) to arrive at agreement on an issue
40. Which rule you more
a) your head
b) your heard
41. Are you more comfortable with work that is
a) contracted
b) done on a casual basis
42. DO you rend to look for
a) the orderly
b) whatever turns up
43. Do you prefer
a) many friends with brief contact
b) a few friends with more lengthy contact
44. Do you go more by
a) facts
b) principles
45. Are you more interested in
a) production and distribution
b) design and research
46. Which is more of a compliment
a) there is a very logical person
b) there is a very sentimental person
47. Do you value in yourself more that you are
a) unwavering
b) devoted
48. Do you more often prefer the
a) final and unalterable statement
b) tentative and preliminary statement
49. Are you more comfortable
a) after a decision
b) before a decision
50. Do you
a) speak easily and at length with strangers
b) find little to say to strangers
51. Are you more likely to trust your
a) experience
b) hunch
52. Do you feel
a) more practical than ingenious
b) more ingenious than practical
53. Which person is more to be complimented one of
a) clear reason
b) strong feelings
54. Are you inclined more to be
a) fair minded
b) sympathetic
55. Is it preferable mostly to
a) make sure things are arranged
b) just let things happen
56. In relationships should most things be
a) re negotiable
b) random and circumstantial
57. When the phone rings do you
a) hasten to get it first
b) hope someone else will answer
58. DO you price more in yourself
a) a strong sense of reality
b) a vivid imagination
59. Are you drawn more to
a) fundamentals
b) overtones
60. Which seems the greater error
a) to be too passionate
b) to be too objective
61. Do you see yourself as basically
a) hard headed
b) soft heated
62. Which situation appeals to you more
a) the structured and scheduled
b) the unstructured and unscheduled
63. Are you a person that is more
a) routine than whimsical
b) whimsical than routine
64. Are you more inclined to be
a) easy to approach
b) somewhat reserved
65. In writings do you prefer
a) the more literal
b) the more figurative
66. Is it harder for you to
a) identify with others
b) utilize others
67. Which do you wish more for yourself
a) clarity of reason
b) strength of compassion
68. Which is the greater fault
a) being indiscriminate
b) being critical
69. Do you prefer the
a) planned event
b) unplanned event
70. Do you tend to be more
a) deliberate than spontaneous
b) spontaneous than deliberate
Sorter
======
To sort your answers: for each question check the appropriate
A or B column. Total Each column, and then totals the column
totals as described.
A B A B A B A B A B A B A B
1 __ __ 2 __ __ 3 __ __ 4 __ __ 5 __ __ 6 __ __ 7 __ __
8 __ __ 9 __ __ 10 __ __ 11 __ __ 12 __ __ 13 __ __ 14 __ __
15 __ __ 16 __ __ 17 __ __ 18 __ __ 19 __ __ 20 __ __ 21 __ __
22 __ __ 23 __ __ 24 __ __ 25 __ __ 26 __ __ 27 __ __ 28 __ __
29 __ __ 30 __ __ 31 __ __ 32 __ __ 33 __ __ 34 __ __ 35 __ __
36 __ __ 37 __ __ 38 __ __ 39 __ __ 40 __ __ 41 __ __ 42 __ __
43 __ __ 44 __ __ 45 __ __ 46 __ __ 47 __ __ 48 __ __ 49 __ __
50 __ __ 51 __ __ 52 __ __ 53 __ __ 54 __ __ 55 __ __ 56 __ __
57 __ __ 58 __ __ 59 __ __ 60 __ __ 61 __ __ 62 __ __ 63 __ __
64 __ __ 65 __ __ 66 __ __ 67 __ __ 68 __ __ 69 __ __ 70 __ __
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
1 2 3 4 3 4 5 6 5 6 7 8 7 8
__ __ __ __ __ __ __ __
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
E I S N T F J P
Extrovert Sensing Thinking Judging
Introvert iNtuition Feeling Perceiving
|
| 274.30 | | WRKSYS::STHILAIRE | I don't see how I could refuse | Wed Aug 29 1990 16:11 | 4 |
| I've had to take this Myers-Briggs thing twice at DEC. I'm an INFP!
Lorna
|
| 274.31 | | LDYBUG::GOLDMAN | Amy, whatcha gonna do? | Wed Aug 29 1990 18:14 | 11 |
| I guess there are different versions of the test. I took one
(last night in fact) in preparation for that course I mentioned,
and it was different. It had three parts, one of which was just
choosing the more appealing of two words. (It was kind of
strange, and I found many of the questions somewhat ambiguous. Of
course the very last question was "Would you have liked to argue
the meaning of a) a lot of these questions, or b) only a few?")
We'll see how they rate me...
amy
|
| 274.32 | How do I register? | TOOK::MCCAULEY | | Wed Aug 29 1990 18:53 | 8 |
|
How do you register for the Myers Briggs course? I've looked in
several places, and found no reference to this course. I'm
interested in the course offering in Shrewsbury in late September
that was mentioned in .28.
Thanks,
Laura
|
| 274.33 | | TINCUP::KOLBE | The dilettante debutante | Wed Aug 29 1990 19:35 | 7 |
| Interesting how you can never know something exists and then suddenly
it's everywhere. The communications class I'm taking this semester is
having us take and evaluate this test. Wonder what I'll end up being
classified as? I think I'm an introverted extrovert. :*)
I can almost hear the line at the singles bar now. What's your type?
liesl
|
| 274.34 | *** co-moderator nudge *** | LEZAH::BOBBITT | water, wind, and stone | Wed Aug 29 1990 23:46 | 5 |
| The meyers-Briggs test is currently being discussed in its own topic -
345.....
-Jody
|