Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    well i guess it's time for me to come out of my closet...so to speak.
    i've been reading womannotes for several years off and on...but haven't
    felt compelled to participate...this note, however struck the right 
    chord i suppose.
    
    so many different emotions hit me all at once when i read the basenote.
    "It must also be hard for a mother to give up custody to the father."
    HARD...PAINFUL...GUT-WRENCHING!.
    
    my daughter, who is now 16 lives with her father.  we were separated,
    then later divorced when she was 10.  we elected to have her live with
    him, for a number of ~sound~ reasons, but we have joint custody.  he's an 
    excellent father and at that time they had a wonderfully close relationship 
    and still do...as close as a father and teen-age daughter can have during 
    this maturation period...for both of them.
    
    she and i have a very close relationship.  i spend a great deal of time
    with her and am involved in all facets of her life...almost as much as
    i would be if she lived with me....but there in lies the delimma.  she
    DOESN'T live with me.  why is this such of painful thing?  i'm really
    not completely sure.  
    
    when my ~friends~ discovered that we had decided to have her live with
    her father the reactions were all over the map..."how COULD you?", "oh
    so now it's YOUR turn to play!", "what kind of a mother ARE you?" and
    some that said "that must have been a VERY hard decision.  you have
    a lot of guts".  did this have an impact on me?  you bet it did!  i
    began to question my own motives, my own self worth and goodness as
    a loving parent.  all this combined with the usual trauma you go thru
    with a divorce was a very ~interesting~ time in my life.  do i reqret
    the decision?  no, not really, but i will never get over feeling i've
    "missed something".  i've missed my being there in the middle of the
    nite when she had a bad dream, or was sick, or just needed a hug...or
    "I" needed a hug...hers.  will it make a difference in her life...and the
    way she "mother's" her children, should she have any.....i don't know.    
    so far all i can detect are the things i've missed out on....she seems
    to be a very well adjusted, happy, sensitive and caring young lady.
    this is not to say she wouldn't rather have both of us living with her
    and married....but that wouldn't be any different if she lived with me
    instead of her father.
    
    i guess the bottom line is intellectually i know we made the right
    decision....emotionally...that's one that i continue to work day by
    day.
    
    

    I "allowed" Becky to go live with her dad for a short period of time.  
    I kept the legal custody of her, it was a verbal agreement between her
    and her dad and I.
    
    It was the worst mistake I have EVER made. It was bad for Becky, and we
    are just now working on un-doing all the damage done.  I knew it was
    the wrong thing to do, but at the time it seemed like the only right
    thing to do.
    
    As far as I'm concerned, my ex showed that men can not bring up
    children and be responsible. All I have is a survey of 1, so it's
    rather skewed at the moment.

      Gale, I have as real problem with your last paragraph. So you say ALL
    MEN can not raise children?
    
    
    REK

  re: .2

  I've been reading WOMANNOTES for about 5 months and I just *had* to 
  reply to this one.

  I'm sorry to hear that *you* and your daughter had a made a mistake
  by allowing Becky to live with her father.  You don't mention why it
  was a mistake but that's neither here nor there.

  FLAME ON 

  To generalize that men can not bring up children is one most ridiculous
  things that I have heard and seen so far in this conference.  There are
  many men who have been widowed, divorced, etc. that have a great 
  relationship with their children and have guided their children to 
  success meaning college grads, scholar's, etc.  So have mothers for that
  fact.

  Just because *one* individual ruins a relationship does not constitute
  an entire gender is at fault!!!!

  FLAME OFF

  Sorry about the flame on but this type of stereotyping gets to me.  Entire 
  FAMILIES have been known to ruin a child's life.  Take a look at the
  situations where father AND mother were arrested by police because their
  children turned THEM in for drug abuse/use.
  
  Feel free to drop in on the NON-CUSTODIAL PARENTS or BLENDED-FAMILIES 
  conferences and discuss it.  I sure you will find some interesting 
  notes around this issue.


  
  Thanks,

  Kenn

    re: .4
    
    whoa, slow down!  She said that her sample was skewed -- cut some
    slack, guy!
    
    daniel

 Saying that one's sample is skewed does not justify making negative
generalizations. I'd give some examples, but they are against conference 
guidelines.

 The Doctah

  Yes I realize this and I apologized twice and again I offer my most
  humblest apologies if I offended her.

  It's the generalization that gets to me....

  Kenn

    
    My children had to live through 9 1/2 years of h**l before I was able
    to FINALLY cut through the bigotry and stereotypes that "fathers
    just *can't* be good parents".  I got custody of my three younger
    children last month.  I have had custody of the oldest for about
    four years.  When I picked them up from their mother they were
    living in one of the *worst* parts of that city.  I went by the
    house where they lived the night before so I could locate the 
    house.  Street gangs of 10-12 year olds still roamed the streets
    at 12:30 a.m.  At the time I was awarded custody, the only visible
    income of her *and* her husband was child support and AFDC.  My
    *daughter* testified that they moved often (3-5 times a year) to
    avoid creditors.  It probably wasn't their mother's fault, though.  It
    was probably that s.o.b. she was married to (draw sarcastic face here).
    
    I have been married for the last six years, and my wife has been
    *very* supportive, but I also take a *major* roll in the raising
    of my children.  I know of several fathers who are single parents
    and doing very well-thank you.
    
    For more information on the custody battle and why I was awarded
    custody, check CSC32::NON_CUSTODIAL_PARNTS note 62.
    
    I could go on for a few RA90's worth about custodial parents who 
    will brainwash and generally screw up their kids just so the
    kids will hate their non_custodial parent as much as the custodial
    parent does, but that's another topic.
    
    fred();
    

>    As far as I'm concerned, my ex showed that men can not bring up
>    children and be responsible. All I have is a survey of 1, so it's
>    rather skewed at the moment.
    
    Yeah rather small sample. Based on my small sample, I'd say they
    can do a very good job. My father raised 4 kids alone. We were
    between 4 and 10 when my mother died.
    
    			Alfred

  RE:  .0

  Kate,

   Not being a mother (even though I have been called one) this WOULD have
  to be the hardest choice a majority of mothers (98%) would have to live 
  with.  It is the natural maternal instinct for a mother to protect her 
  child  and to ensure their well-being.

  Throughout the creation of mankind, society itself has said that the
  mother "should be there" for the child, while the male figure "brings
  home the bacon."  Mother is there when the child is sick or falls
  and skins their knees.  Mother is the one who can make the hurt go away
  by kissing the injured area.

  Unfortunately, I for one can relate personally to mothers who *don't*
  care about their children and that it's not hard for them to give up
  their children.  My mother decided to play house with one of the 
  neighbors while my father was in Nam, so when he came back, he raised
  us.  You now can see where my bitterness shows through.

  I whole-heartedly agree that there is more bonding between mothers and 
  children which I think is fantastic.  Even though my ex and I fight
  like cats and dogs, I will go out of my way to help my daughters realize
  that no matter what happens between their mother and me, it should not
  hinder their relationship with their mother.  After all, she is still
  their mother and they should respect her.  
  
  It does have to hurt the mother to not raise her children but she 
  hopefully will be able to see through the entire mess and decide and/or
  understand what is best for the children.  After all, they are the
  ones who suffer the most and are the most vulnerable.  

  On the record, I hurt TREMENDOUSLY when my daughters return home just
  after 5 weeks of visiting with me here so I can imagine how a mother
  would hurt after raising the children for years and then having to give
  them up.  

  Thanks,

  Kenn

	I'm a good father (such humility) and am perfectly capable of
raising my three children on my own. I actually did so a year ago when
my wife and I separated for a couple of months. It was largely her choice
to leave me with the children; opting for having them on weekends at her
apartment.

	From that experience and the fact that my mother raised me and my 
sister largely alone...in between a few short marriages...I conclude that
being a good single parent has nothing to do with your sex.

	it boils down to do you have the real desire to assume the 
responsibility and the skill set (interpersonal largely) to make it
happen.

	My ever so humble opinion...

MAC

    
    I lost custody of my children for 5-1/2 years.  My own brother
    testified against me in court.  I am a catholic and in his opinion
    I had no business in leaving my alcoholic husband.  I also did the
    largest mistake of all by leaving the homestead (after being mentally
    persecuted for months!).  Therefore, my alcoholic husband won custody
    and my three children suffered much abuse.
    
    Even though this nightmare ended 4 years ago for me the pain is
    still so real.  When I read the basenote the emotions came flooding
    back like a strong wave pulling me out to sea.  I am VERY fortunate,
    I won them back.  But the memory I live with and pain that the
    children had to bear has a tendency to bring back much of the hurt.
    We've talked about our feelings in therapy for years, it is no longer
    an issue for them, but there are times that I still cry.
    
    ES
    
     

    I too gave up my daughter for about 2 years.  It was very painful but
    at the time I felt I was doing the right thing.  Looking back at it now
    (its been 6 years), it was a mistake.
    
    About fathers...in my case my ex was capable, it was his wife
    that caused the two years to be a mistake.
    
    Regards, Judy