Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    
    This is speaking from my experience.
     
    I was an all A student in high student and I could basically
    major in anything I wanted in college. My father wanted me to
    major in economics. I hated econimics since I didn't care about
    money (I was too young to understand!!) So, he tried to
    get me into medicine or dentistry, but  I didn't like
    dealing with people (epecially ones in pain!!). I got accepted in 
    mechanical engineering and my father got pretty disappointed! 
    First of all, the big bucks are not in engineering, the $$$$ are 
    in medicine, law and economics. Secondly, the respect for engineers 
    is not as high as those other money making professions. Thirdly,
    traditional fields of engineering (civil, mechanical, industrial,etc) 
    are not very exciting anymore (eg. how many new ways can you build a
    bridge?). 
    
    At any rate, I transferred to electrical engineering and computer
    science after I discovered the kind of fun I can have with computers!!
    I am glad I stuck to my guns, I like my job even though I am not making
    a whole lot of money. I'll probably won't make a whole lot unless
    I start my own company or change my career. I'll probably never
    make as much as my father, a stockbroker, as an engineer. If I were a
    man supporting a family, I might go into the $$$$ making fields.
    
    Computers are not that new anymore. Right now, I think the exciting fields 
    to be in are genetic engineering, biomedical research, waste management, 
    environmental engineering, materials engineering, etc.
    
    After all this mumble and jumble, my conclusion is that it is
    afterall not that bad that women don't go into traditional engineering
    fields - the $$$ is not there, the fun is not there, the fame is not
    there. They may be better off pursuing new fields with bigger 
    potential. One of these days, I know I will change my career and
    do some nifty things, and maybe go for the big bucks!!!!
    
    
    Eva.
    
     

    The line that absolutely jumped off the page at me was "women are more
    interested in seeing patterns than they are in solving problems". 
    Yikes!  That *absolutely, positively* describes how my approach to my
    job differs from the other man in my work group.  (Yes, I'm in a work
    group of 2.)  I just hadn't been able to articulate it before.
    
    Thanks for entering that.  I'm going to have to work out the
    consequences that derive from that for a while before I can comment
    further.
    
    Alison

    My college (all-women) has been noted for its strength in the sciences,
    particularly biology and chemistry.  We used to talk about how much
    easier it was to pursue science in an atmosphere where all the fellow
    students were women -- less competition, less shock at learning you're
    interested, more support for your interest, lots of female role models,
    and an assumption that you were just as capable as any other student in
    the class.
    
    One of my friends is in her 3rd year of a PhD program in molecular
    biology.  She is in a lab of 5 people (all men but her) which is
    strikingly anti-woman.  She has the reputation for being a hysterical
    feminist both with her lab partners and her do-nothing thesis advisor
    (who is 35 and dating an undergrad).  One guy is the main ring-leader
    -- he has stated he thinks women are "psychotic bimbos", direct quote,
    repeated often, and he genuinely means it.  He is 24 and married.
    
    There is still a long way to go.  There are a lot of anti-science
    pressures that women feel strongly.
    
    I also really like the line about women seeing patterns rather than
    solving problems!
    
    Pam

    The few women I knew in college who were majoring in Chemical
    Engineering found it very difficult to do so because of the "old boy"
    network and the fact that they were patronized.  
    
    I also think women's lack of participation in the sciences can be
    partly explained by early conditioning.  Girls are subtly told "you
    can't do physics" "you can't do math" (or at least, I was, and so were
    some other women I know).  They would veer away before they had even
    realized they could have an interest, and they could bring that
    interest to fruition in a career.
    
    -Jody
    

Actually, I think Eva may be right.

Women, in general, have less support for any of those types of science or
engineering fields.  Therefore, the women who tend to succeed in high school
or college in those fields tend to be overacheiving types of women.  
(If I remember correctly, at RPI, women had a slightly higher GPA than
men...I attribute this, not to women in general being more intelligent, but
to the fact that society filters out the less than dedicated women early
on where it doesn't filter the men.)

So these women are very dedicated and smart.  And rare.  So they get their
pick of the fields - so it seems natural that they would choose the most
exciting, high visibility, high pay kind of careers.

Of course, all this makes me wonder why I went into CS.  After all, I had
as much potential as any of them.  Personally, I think it's because I
hated Chemistry, and the idea of taking 6 semesters of Chem in college
scared me so much that I went for a major where only 1 semester was required.
:-)

D!

    
    
    I think many of the reasons why women do not enter the fields of
    science were pretty much touched upon in the last few replies.
    I do agree that most girls are conditioned by society that they
    are just not capable at math or science.  This is a grave mistake
    as I see it.
    
    I have a degree in Industrial Engineering with one year remaining on
    a degree in Electrical.  I started out in Electrical, but hated it
    enough to realize that it was not for me.  Hopefully I will go
    back to complete the degree, but it will not bother me if I don't
    as I will never use it in a working capacity.
    
    From day one the sexism was prominent.  I knew I was going to have
    to deal with this, but never expected it to be as bad as it was.
    However, I did not let it affect me negatively.  In fact I would
    often turn it around on the male who dished it out.  It worked 
    wonders because I was laying the groundwork for these folks to
    deal with me.  It was not just the profs, but it was more so the
    male students.  Once they realized we were not there to help them
    and we started directly challenging, then they woke up.
    
    I can remember having a graphics teacher tell me that I should
    be at home making babies.  Well needless to say he is no longer
    working at the university (he was thrown out for sexual harassment).
    Slowly but surely over the course of my education I saw a shift in
    attitudes in the men I studied with and learned from.  I think once
    they saw that we were there for the same purpose they were, they
    accepted us as peers.
    
    My cousin is going to be starting her degree in Mechanical Engineering
    this fall.  I am very pleased that she made the choice.  She is very
    bright and will do well in whatever she chooses.  I have talked to
    her extensively about the bull she is going to have to put up with
    in her education.  She seems very confident that she will be able
    to handle it, and I am sure she will.  Neither of us are over
    achievers, we are just two women who choose to enter a male dominated
    field.  I don't look at myself as being anything special because of
    my choice, but most of society tells me that I am because of it.
    In fact, my grandfather introduces me to his friends as "my engineer
    granddaughter"!!  
                 
    
    If we as a society want to see more women in science and engineering
    then we have to stop pointing out the differences in the sexes.
    We must encourage girls to excell in math and sciences if that is
    what they like.  We must stop telling girls in school that they
    can't be this or that because they are female.  
    
    Michele

    At Yale, there was a concious effort on the part of the faculty to
    encourage  women  to  go to grad school in computer science and to
    support  the  women  who were there. I'm not sure if it helped, as
    the graduate class was predominantly men, but I was convinced that
    the effort was sincere (except for one man, who didn't think women
    should  be  in  computer  science, and the rest of faculty went to
    some lengths to support the women who ran afoul of him.)

--David

    Identifying the barrier as sexism can be useful for women who want to
    enter traditionally male fields.
    
    I recall being barred from certain courses (physics, advanced math,
    chemistry, etc) in high school because I would not do well in them.  I
    thought it was because I was too stupid.  Nope, looking back it was
    because not a sinlge female was _ever_ in any of those classes.  Maybe
    now there are women enrolled, but certainly not back in the mid-sixties. 
    
    The implications are different.  Sexism suggests that success is likely
    but will not be allowed or encouraged.  It is not easy to fight sexism
    but it can be fought.  It is awful to be told one can not succeed.  In
    a weird way, I'd rather be discriminated against than detracted.

  A while ago, Andover (APO) had a luncheon seminar titled something
  like "Getting More Women Involved in Science and Engineering".

  One of the speakers was a women Electrical Engineering professor from
  the University of New Hampshire (UNH).  I believe she said she was,
  in fact, the department head.  She is also responsible for the SWE
  (Society of Women Engineers) newsletter at UNH.

  As she spoke, she at one point discussed her childhood experiences.
  The things she'd taken apart, the toys she had, etc.  And I *ABSO-
  LUTELY and IMMEDIATELY* identified with everything she was saying.
  I had a childhood just like hers, and we both grew up to be engineers,
  although she was a girl and I was a boy.  Her parents tolerated
  things in the house getting taken apart; so did my dad.�

  I don't know whether "tinkering" is a genetic or learned behavior,
  but it obviously starts early and (based on *LOTS* of conversations
  I've had with *LOTS* of folks) is strongly correlated with growing
  up into some sort of technical discipline.

  Here, we go a bit farther off into "just my opinion..."

  I also think the toys make a big difference.  Lots of my toys were
  of the unstructured, you-build-something style:  trains of all scales,
  cardboard blocks, Tinker Toys, Erector sets, Lincoln Logs, etc.  And
  I just found at a yard sale the wreckage of one member of what I
  think was a wonderful series of toys: The Kenner "Girder and Panel"
  building sets.  This particular set was the "Hydro Dynamic Building
  Set No. 11" which contained lots of tanks, tubing, gadgets, and a
  battery-operated pump with which you could build colored-water
  "models" of all sorts of wild and crazy chemical plants.  (But
  building model chemical plants is probably *VERY* PI these days.)
  Other models built buildings or roads and bridges, and all the
  sets could be "inter-operated".

  My son Ajay has a similar assortment of toys�, only updated, and
  even though he's only 5�, the effects seem to be clear.  But my
  wife said that if Ajay had been Allison, she would have been op-
  posed to our spending the money that we spent on the Brio Railroad
  because she foresaw "the kid with the striped Engineer's (=Train
  Driver's) hat on making whistle sounds", not "the kid with the
  Engineer's mindset on, designing layout after imaginative layout".�

  (Interesting aside:  Katie, Ajay's neighborhood buddy, says that
  she wishes she was a boy because "Boys have better toys".  She
  *ALWAYS* wants to come over to our house to play rather than
  vice-versa, and she attacks the toys with the same vigor as Ajay.)

  And we buy lots of junk at garage sales just for the sheer fun of
  taking it apart.  (That solves the problem of the "Lionel trains" --
  If you're likely to break it irreparably, why pay $29.95 when you
  can pay $0.75 instead?  And I'm a lot more skillful these days at
  getting things back together.  "The Color TV?  The new VCR?  Why
  no dear, I didn't take them apart.  Much.")

  What do you say, fellow engineers and technologists (of both sexes)?
  Do these experiences sound familiar to you?

                                   Atlant


� My mom still complains about the "wonderful, valuable [standard-guage]
  Lionel train engines that I wrecked" but my dad realizes with a sigh
  that it was just a part of my early technical education.

� Well, we tell him they're his.  But Dad'll be broken hearted if Ajay
  takes them all with him when he grows up!

� She's now reformed, and we've written that paragraph together, so
  please, no flames.

    I think that children inherit tinkering, primarily from the male
    parent.  If dad is into Ham Radio, then he will often invite the son
    into his interests, and less so the daughter.  When I decided to major
    in Electronics in high school, the young men in the class were miles
    ahead of me, already knew the components and the terminology and basic
    circuit theory in many says (sans the mathematics, though).  They had
    been fiddling with it for years with their friends, their dads, their
    uncles.  I had a lot of catching up to do (not that it stopped me ;)...
    
    I was always ms. fixit around the house, always helping dad fix things
    and check things out and so forth.  I was always fascinated by the
    problem-solving involved.  That's one thing young women are often not
    encouraged to do (a big part of tinkering/repair is problem-solving -
    following a logical bunch of steps to a correct conclusion and knowing
    when to turn around and backtrack when your diagnosis/procedure is
    wrong).  
    
    I think if Girl Scouts had badges for the tinkering arts, (electronics,
    minor plumbing, I know they have one in computer use now but I'm not
    sure how involved it is, just general fixit stuff) it would be a good
    start.  And if the dads knew to ask their daughters, "hey, do you want
    to learn this along with your brother?"....too often daughters are
    assumed to want to be in the kitchen baking and sewing with Mom, and
    sons are presumed to be technically adept.  This is not always the
    case, and in breaking the gender stereotypes of children we will allow
    the children to decide what they enjoy, rather than putting them in
    molds and cutting off avenues of possibility for their achievement and
    enjoyment...
    
    -Jody
    

    
    
    re -1
    
    Jody,
    
    My first reaction was to say "no" in a big way.  I was raised without
    a father, but did have the fortune of living in the same house as
    my Grandpa.  He did encourage me to help him out when he would be
    building something.  He also encouraged my brothers,but they just
    were not interested.  So I guess it is up to the kid really.  
    
    The funny thing is that I am not in the least bit mechanically
    inclined.  I love tearing things apart, but please don't ask me
    to put it back together again.  I just can't do it.  Not that I
    haven't tried!!!
    
    So I think your statement does hold some weight.  I also believe
    that the kid is the one who decides what excites him/her.  I can't be
    sure that I would have gone into engineering if I did not have all
    the great experiences with my Grandpa.  Yet, it was the math part of
    it that drew me into engineering.  In fact, I loved computers and
    wanted to know how they worked and how to design them.  It was
    my high school physics teacher (who happened to be male if it makes
    any difference) who pushed me into engineering.  He knew I had what
    it takes and encouraged me to go as far as I could.  Who knows, if
    it weren't for him I may not have gone into engineering.  
    
    One thing that really bothers me is that when I announced my intentions
    to my family, all of the women reacted with great shock.  I was told
    many times to rethink my career choice.  The only one who honestly
    believed I could do it was my Grandpa.  Kind of weird looking back on
    it.  

    kind of rings a bell, no?

    
    Hmm, I took things apart too when I was little. I distinctly remember
    a radio which was fried anyways and a clock that was kind of working. 
    My father isn't mechanical at all; I just happen to be curious.
    
    I have a little girl (just turned 5). We, purposedly, limit the number
    of "girl only" toys that we buy her. The ponies and Barbies are
    in, a lot of her girl friends have "collections" of these things. She
    has one of each, to cure her curiosity. Most of her toys are unisex.
    (eg. car, blocks, legos, puzzles, games, arts and crafts stuff, etc).
    We just can't see the merit of having 10 Barbies. But, I can sense
    that peer pressure is on. She does have a lot of male friends at
    the nursery school, I hope she'll keep them as she grows older.
     
    My philosophy is that it takes a lot of years for a child to develop
    skills necessary for adulthood, eg. reasoning, logic, confidence,
    assertiveness, creativity etc. I don't want my child to waste 
    her important  learning years playing with things that do not help to 
    develop these skills. I think any professional who try hard enough can 
    be a good houseperson, but not vice versa. I want my child to have
    more choices in life, more things she can do. Hack, it is important
    to keep the house clean, but if my daughter has the $$$, she can
    hire someone to do the cleaning, while she can do something else
    more interesting. We all want our offsprings to be better off than we
    are, right?!!
    
    
    Eva.
    
    
    

re: lincoln logs and erector sets....

I had 'em all.  My mother's greatest ambition for me in life was that I
*not* end up in a stereotypical female job.  And the most atypical job
for a woman (she thought) was engineer.  And to this end she plyed me
with legos and electronics kits and erector sets.

But alas, I was as spacially disinclined as she, and a job as mechanical
engineer was not in my future.  (As a matter of fact, I was tested as
retarded on the "spacial relations" part of an IQ test I took when I
was in second grade, and mom had to fight like the devil to keep me from
being put in a "special ed" classroom!)  Back then the idea of an 
electrical or computer engineer wasn't thought of.

I tried though.  Against my better judgement I started college in electrical
engineering, which pleased my mother.  Hated, though, and ended up in
computer science.  (Which, although not "real" engineering in my mother's
eyes was anti-stereotypical enough that she was happy.  :-)

Ironically, while I absorbed my Mom's desire for me to be a mechanical
engineer, and wanted it myself, I swore I would *never* work with computers.
At about age 10 I remember asking my father what a computer was - my
father (a Pure Mathematician by training and inclinication) had a theory
that you start at the most basic level - so he answered my question by
teaching me the binary number system!  At that point I was SO confused that
I swore I hated computers and could never understand them.

Amazing how these things work out.

D!

Eva,

Be careful that the way you pressure your daughter doesn't backfire 
on you. My mother had similar attitudes to yours, and I am still
trying to recover from some of the internal misogyny that resulted.
A very well-intentioned parent can unintentionally cause self-
esteem problems in children...

>We, purposedly, limit the number
>    of "girl only" toys that we buy her. 

My mother did the same thing.  She really wanted me to play with legos
and lincoln logs, which I did.  She bought me dolls because I wanted them,
but not many; and children are *perceptive* - even though she never said
anything, I could tell that deep inside she disapproved of playing with
dolls.  So I learned that my natural nuturing instincts were bad; my
natural building instincts were good.  So I suppressed the former, but
they were still there and I still felt guilty about them.

>She does have a lot of male friends at
>    the nursery school, I hope she'll keep them as she grows older.
 
I do to!  Having male friends is important.  But so is having female
friends. I hope you aren't subtley or subconciously discouraging her
from playing with her female friends, even if they are playing "female"
games with female dolls.  Even if you don't want you daughter to be
traditionally feminine, there will be lots of traditionally feminine
women in the world around her, and she must learn to related to them.
    
> I don't want my child to waste 
>    her important  learning years playing with things that do not help to 
>    develop these skills. 

I'm sorry but I must STRONGLY object to this statement.  Some play has
a purpose - learning skills - but some play for children is the same
as play for adults: it's relaxing, it is bonding with other children, it's
*fun*. I really don't like this idea that all play must be the "right"
kind of play.  Who says play that doesn't teach her specific job-related
skills is "wasted"?  There are many other things that one learns through
play of all sorts - ability to interact with other children (if she is
playing with other children); ability to provide creative outlets for
herself (if she is playing alone); problem solving (which can happen just
as much with Barbie's as with legos);  and, last but not least, just
plain ole fun!

>    more interesting. We all want our offsprings to be better off than we
>    are, right?!!

I was discussing this with a friend of mine recently.  I firmly feel
that my absolute ultimate ambition for my children (if I have them) is
that they be happy. Nothing else matters.  I want to provide them with
enough skills so that they have the flexibility to choose to do whatever
makes them happy.  If having the $$$ to hire a housekeeper will make my
daughter happy, then I want her to have them.  But if she would be happier
not making much money, and cleaning the house herself, then *that's*
what I want for her.  So unless by "better off" you mean "happier", then
I guess I would have to sy "no" to your question.

D!

    re .1, I find it interesting that you say that the money is not in
    engineering.  Everything is relative.  It's true that engineers do not
    make as much money as doctors and lawyers, and other fields you named. 
    But, when you consider that most women are still working in even
    relatively lower-paying jobs than engineering, such as teacher, nurse,
    social worker, librarian, secretary, etc., I think that engineering is
    still a relatively high paying field for women.  The other day I was
    having a conversation with a young woman who had just graduated from
    college and had managed to get hired as a teacher in one of the public
    school systems and she mentioned that she had been hired on at $22K a
    year.  I think that's considerably less than most engineering graduates
    start at, isn't it?
    
    I agree with D! as far as the toys go.  The only toys I didn't allow my
    daughter to play with were toy guns.  (That would have been just too
    much for me to stomach.)  But, other than that, I got her whatever she
    asked for, if we could afford it.  She had a lot of dolls, especially
    Barbies, but she had a lot of traditionally boy toys, too.  She has
    always been more naturally interested in fixing broken things, and in
    how things work than I ever was.  She'll be a h.s. junior next year,
    and is an A student.  She said that she has already had math teachers
    and guidance counselors suggest that she plan to major in engineering,
    which I think is good.  Nobody would have suggested that to a girl when
    I was in high school.
    
    Lorna
    

    
    re. 15
    
    Yes, I am very careful of not pushing too hard. But it is
    so difficult to let a child explore his/her potentials when 
    the media and society are bombarding them with these stereotyping
    messages. I think all I am trying to do is to give her choices,
    expose her different kinds of toys and let her choose. What I
    am afraid is that my daughter cannot be herself because of
    social pressure. If media and society do not exert such pressure,
    I wouldn't have to worry about it.
    
    No, I am not discouraging her from playing with girls at all
    but I don't want her to play with girls exclusively.  
    Unfortunately, boys don't play with ponies and barbies and if
    my daughter doesn't play with toys other than ponies and barbies,
    then she'll eventually lose those male friends.
    
    What I meant by better off was having more choices. Sometimes, it
    involves money, sometimes it involves skills. It is ok
    if she chose to clean her house even if she could afford to hire
    someone to do it. But, I wouldn't want to see her "stuck"
    in a situation where she had no means to get out. 
    
    I reason why I feel so strongly about this is - my mother had 
    no means to divorce my father, ie. no $$$ and no skills, she was 
    emotionally abused a lot. I have also seen a lot of women (from
    older generation) trapped in unhappy marriages. I have seen older
    women who had devoted their whole life to their family and ended
    up being dumped by their husband, with no skills and no $$$.
    
    I don't think we'll be able to leave my children with a whole lot
    of money. $$$ does not mean happiness, it cannot buy happiness,
    but it can buy convenience and it means choices. All I think I can
    leave my chidlren are good values, good education and a means
    to make a decent living if needed. I would hate to see my daughter
    dumped by some jerk, with 2 young kids, on welfare. Or have to
    work as an unskilled labor at 50, to pay the rent. Yes, being happy
    is the very important, but there are things in life that are
    sometimes more important that our own happiness, namely survival, dignity
    and responsiblity. 
    
    
    Eva.

    
    re.16
    
    The original article was discussing why more women are going into
    medical and business fields, which were traditionally male dominated
    also, than engineering. Yes, I was comparing salaries of engineers and 
    doctors or bankers.
    
    Eva.

    
    re. 16
    
    And yes, the starting salaries of engineers are higher, but
    it is a lot harder for women to move up in the corporate ladder
    (the glass ceiling) in engineering, still. There are quite a few 
    of female VP in the financial world, but how many female VP are
    there in engineering industry? 
    
    
    Eva.

    
    Oh, one more thing, engineering is not the most most family
    accomodation field, it is getting better, but not good enough.
    If I am a independent professional like a doctor, lawyer, 
    physical therapist, dentist, financial analyst or whatever,
    I can set up my own office hours to suit my family needs.
    Whereas as an engineer, I more or less have to work for a big
    company and go by its hours.
    
    
    Eva. 

    
    re -1
    
    Sorry, but I tend to disagree with this statement.  I could
    easily spend at least 50% of my time computing from home and
    still get the job done.  I think it really depends on the
    company you work for and the job you do.
    
    Michele

    
    Thank  you for putting in this entry!!  It couldn't have been more
    timely!
    
    I think that the base note has a great point.  Let me give you some
    background.  I am 22, married 4 months and a software engineer.  Since
    chosing computer science as a major, I've received countless strange
    reactions to my decision.  People's reactions to atypical roles have 
    become incredibly pronounced now that I'm married.  Of course, everyone 
    and their sister has been asking me when we're going to have children.  
    I say, "never, thank you.  I just don't have that instinct."  I have 
    actually had women tell me that I'm selfish!  (Boy was I mad!)  Also,
    everyone assumes that my husband fixes everything.  Wrong!
    (Please excuse me if I sound mad, but this all happened yesterday.)
    So, yes, I firmly believe that nurturing instincts are socially
    acceptable while non-nurturing instincts are not.  Also, wanting to
    fix things is not socially acceptable either.  ie : cousins of mine who
    ask my husband how to fix Y, won't ask me the same question when he
    tells them that I fix things.  They just stand there with their jaw
    dropped.
    
    So, on the question of what could promote little girls into engineers. 
    I'll be glad to load out my father and mother.  My father is an
    engineer; my mother works in the home.  When I was little, they bought
    me all kinds of toys.  The older I got, the more I realized that my
    father was a liked to teach math and
    computers.  So, I would tried to like math and computers so that I could
    spend time with him.  He also was very happy working on Erector sets or
    the Invisible Woman, (a great see-through plastic woman whose organs
    all come out).   My mother was afraid of math and told me so.  But she
    never failed to tell me that I could do anything I wanted to.  (How
    many times, she told me to become President!)  Instead of watching TV,
    we had family contests.  We, (my mom, dad, brother and I), would draw
    subjects, (written by my parents), out of a hat.  We would have 1 hour
    to either make and advertisement or write a story/poem about that
    subject.  At the end of that hour, we'd all show what we made and the
    most interesting product was the winner!  So, I grew up feeling that
    no matter what kind of activity I chose, I'd get attention for being
    good at it.  (And my brother got the same treatment.)  I think that
    their approach was great.  I wasn't steered into any particular role,
    but encouraged to be good at them all.  
    
    (By the way,  I thought of taking alot of the detail out, but decided
    that someone might be able to use the ideas for their own children.)
    
    
    Eva : how could there be equal women in engineering management if there 
    are less women, proportionately, in engineering?  (If 6% of engineering
    ia female vs. 30%, I think, in X field)  And for how many years have
    women even existed in the different fields?  I would guess that the
    percentage of engineers, sex asside, who make it into managements is
    also very small.
    
    
    OK.  I'll shut up now.
    
    Rachael
    
    

An observation about how  s l o w l y  our world is changing, from
my husband.

My husband teaches philosphy at a local college that has
a large nursing department.  He regularly finds that many of
his very best students are majoring in nursing.  Every now and
then, when talking to some of the nursing majors who are
pulling down straight A's, he suggests they consider going 
to medical school and getting an M.D.

Every one of the straight A women has responded to his
suggestion with total shock!  In spite of their talent and
hard work, he is almost always the first one in their lives
to suggest it.

And they all come from high schools with "profession" guidance
counselors. 

An observation of mine.  

Right up in the top-ten-nice-feelings-of-parents
is the warm and cuddly feeling a mom and dad can get when planning
Sally's future. Telling Sally she will grow up and fall in love
and be a mommy and maybe a teacher or a nurse or maybe 
a secretary .... all of this can produce cutesy-warmy-feelies.
Telling Sally she can be an engineer or an industrial designer 
-- well, for most folks, this just does not light up the cutesy-warmy 
neurons.
             Meigs

    
    re.21
    
    When I meant engineering, it is engineering in general, not
    just computers. I have frineds from college that are in chemical,
    biomedical and environmental engineering and they can't dial in
    from home. We, at DEC, are exceptions not the rules.
    
    
    Eva.

    
    This entry has been enlightening for me.  As I stated in #248, the
    group I'm working in has very poor ratio of women engineer and I'm
    giving a lot of thought about why there are so few women engineers.
    
    I think women have to encourage other women to get into engineering
    and help other women to get over the obstacles.  We have to encourage
    younger generations that engineering is an option for them and have
    sort of support system that female students (engineers) can help other
    female students (engineers) to make it through.  One thing men are good
    at is to form 'old boys netwrok' which benefits them greatly and work
    implecitely as a support system.  Women should have a support system
    of themselves.  I think it means a lot for someone who's starting out 
    in the world to have some role models, someone who made it through
    in the male dominant field.  If college female engineering
    students can talk to women engineers already in the field and get some
    encournagements, it gives more motivation for them to stick to 
    engineering. (Engineering dropout reate is high, as you know...)
    
    I think one of the reason that there are more women in the field of
    medicine, law and busines than science and engineering is that women
    have better communication skills and being a doctor, lawyer or business
    woman can utilize the skill more than being an engineeer.  When I look
    around my environment (software engineers, all males except myself),
    they have lousy communication skills and people skills, but they can
    sit in front of their workstation for 24 hours straight and code
    without interacting with people...  Women tend to be more sociable
    and enjoy interactions with other people, and engineeering does not
    necessarily value such skills or tendencies.
    
    Before I have my current engineering job, I was a software specialist
    and did the customer work and telephone support work.  There are lots
    of women in the support jobs and customer jobs.  Some places I've been
    in, I worked for a women boss and the ratio of male-female was 50:50.
    Women tend to score well in the jobs that value communication and
    social skills, I think.
    
    Thanks,
    Masami
    
    
      
    

    
    re. 22
    
    Yes, part of it is that, gender aside, the number of engineers
    going into higher paid positions (ie. management) is limited.
    But, there is certainly a glass ceiling for women.
    
    In software engineering, there are much more women engineers,
    the ratio is almost up to 2 out of 5. Upper managment
    is still almost all male.  There are a lot of factors 
    constituting the glass ceiling which I don't have time to 
    elaborate. Sometimes the requirements to move up beyond the
    glass ceiling is too demanding on a woman who has a family
    (she may have to put in 12 hour days and lots of travel), etc. 
    Sometimes, the opportunity of growth and develop is given to a 
    male colleague instead, etc. I have been in engineering for 
    7 years and I still hear about such happenings in the 
    industry. DEC is a good company, that's why I am here, but
    not all campanies are like that.
    
    Things are improving, but slow. But, we have to keep our eyes open,
    so that we can help to facilitate the changes for the next generation.
    Maybe I sound too radical, but I think a lot of education and
    evolution has to happen before we see more women wanting to go
    into engineering.
    
    
    Eva.
    

    In my family (5f children, 1m child) three of the women are in
    engineering (software, chemical, and industrial).  One is a homemaker,
    and another a missionary.  My brother tried computer science, and
    found that although he loved hacking he hated the degree program,
    and is now studying to be a teacher.  I have to say that my father
    (a civil engineer) _really_ pushed math and science.  (He had to
    fight with the high school to let me take Chemistry, Physics, and 
    PreCalculus at the same time as a Junior).  My mother said, 
    "Do whatever makes you happy."  Similar to an earlier respondent,
    succeeding in math and science was a way of getting my father's
    approval.  So I think parents can influence their children's choice
    of careers.  I also did very well in English, but this was never
    taken seriously at home.  I'm glad that I have a well-paying career
    that I enjoy even though it doesn't feel like a vocation, more like
    a trade, and I pursue other interests as hobbies.
    	Linda

    
    Eva,
    
    I agree that there is discrimination against women in terms of
    high-level, engineering management positions.  However, I'm not really
    sure of how bad it is.  Your note stated that 2 out of 5 engineers are
    women, (40%), while the base noter said 6%.  We seem to have quite a
    variant in the statistics.  In my experience,  I looked at over 200
    resumes and I remember 3 women.  (1.5%)  My group has interview 10 or
    12 people in the past month, 1 was female.  (10%)  With this number of
    women coming into the profession, how can many rise to the top?  We
    also need to factor in the reality that women still often raise the
    children.  So sometimes, they stop working for a few years or cut down
    to part-time work.  This would slow their professional growth down to
    below that of their male counterparts, thus affecting their
    promotability.  I think that I need to see some very specific
    statistics showing, for both men and women, their years of experience,
    types of experience, job titles, and performance reviews.  In my
    experience, there simply are not enough women in software engineering
    with the same dedication that the men have who make it to the top.  Who
    would rather work 80 hours than work 40-50 and see their
    families/friends/pets ... ?  Personally, I like to see my
    husband and my other friends.
    
    
    I think that money-wise, engineering is great!   I know that my friends
    from college started out making $5-10,000 per year less than I did. 
    Also, I got better raises.  Of course, that's at the lower levels. 
    Maybe they have more potential to make really big money.  I think that
    people, in general, think that engineers are smart.  So, I think that
    if more women knew that they could be engineers, they would be.
    
    Rachael
    

    
    I think .29 and .25 brought up some interesting points. It is not
    exactly discrimination, but rather the rules of the game are pro-male,
    which makes it difficult for women to move up. 
    
    .25 mentioned the communication and people skills. .29 mentioned
    the 80-90 hour week. Provided women cannot be changed biologically,
    maybe, the rules of the game can be changed to be more fair.
    Taking 5 years off to raise children should NOT affect a woman's
    promotability. Think about it this way - by 45, a man will have 23
    years of experience and a woman after taking 5 years off will have
    18 years experience. The 5 years difference is not that big at
    that point of one's career.
    
    Yes, I think it is important to encourage female students to pursue
    an engineering career, but it is equally important to improve
    the odds for women to be recognized once they are in. That's why we 
    have the Valuing Differences workshop, etc.  
    
    No, being an engineer is not bad compared to other jobs. But,
    a lot women with ambition  would rather start their own ventures,
    (small businesses) write their own rules and work their own hours.
    Working Woman magazine has a lot of interviews with female
    enterpreneurs who started their own business after being "fed-up"
    with struggling in male-dominated companies. 
    
    Don't get me wrong, I love my job as an engineer. I just like
    to play the devil-advocate, to get people thinking - there
    are a lot of interesting opportunities out there, for women.
    And overall, working environment can still be improved, for
    both men and women.
    
    Eva. 

    
    see also:
    
    womannotes-v2
    492 - women and science
    600 - women in engineering (same article in topic 883.0 there also)
    
    -Jody
    

Another way of looking at is:  what is wrong with our system so that
we have to work 80-90 hours a week to "get ahead" (whatever that
means)...

john

    
    
    
    As an undergrad in mathematics, I was once asked by a professor why I
    was taking his course, because "after all, you are already married!".
    There were only two female math majors in our department, and we
    almost always took spots one and two in our classes.   I truly feel
    that much of the anti-female feelings expressed by engineers and/or
    physical scientists are responses to [imagined] threat.  We're just
    better than they are (smurk).
    
    Actually, I am not sure why more women aren't engineers or physicists, or
    chemists (or mathematicians).   I have lost interest in the "pure"
    sciences myself in the last few years, and I find working in other
    fields much more personally rewarding, and more interesting - and
    a lot less lonely.
    
    But back then (when?), I found the problem solving and theory proving lots
    of fun - I called it the "aha!"  factor, when understanding came all
    at once, like an adrenalin rush, and the rest of the problem at hand
    became intuitively obvious.  Q.E.D.
    
    
    btw - did any of the studies ever try to find out why there are so many
    math and physical science professionals in amateur orchestras?  I have
    been in several over the years, and there is always a healthy
    percentage of physicists, mathematicians, chemists, chemical engineers,
    etc...  One of our directors once asked us, but we couldn't come to
    a conclusion of *why*, only that each of us had always been interested
    in music, and many of us had actually considered a carreer in music.
    
    -m

    re.33
    
    re artistically inclined engineers
    
    This is absolutely unproven, but I'll stick my neck out on this one.  I
    think that the sciences and the arts have similar patterns of logic. 
    When a dance is choreographed, or a piece of music is composed, it
    follows a particular pattern, intertwining with other patterns in the
    piece.  This is similar to a theorem, where specific processes must be
    followed in order to arrive at a solution.
    
    I knew of a dancer who had to retire in his 30's, because of injuries. 
    He discovered that he had an aptitude for electrical engineering and
    went back to school for the requisite training.
    
    Yes, there's a definite correlation between the arts and sciences.
    
    Judi
    

    
    Regarding the fact that women take 5 years "off" to raise their
    children.   Actually, this is good management experience, usually
    including such resume' entries as community leadership, budgetting
    processes, and strategic planning.
    
    Also, be aware that in spits of having 4 years less "experience" than
    some of my male counterparts (I use 4 here, because that's what I took
    off with my children when they were younger), I as a demographic group
    of women, have greater job tenure - that is, women tend to switch 
    less often than men.   What does that mean?   It means that if someone
    were to train me for some very special position, the likelyhood of my
    remaining in job long enough for the employer to receive benefit
    from that training is much higher than the equivalently trained male. 
    
    Just one more "also" - I have found that most of the younger women
    today do not take years off to raise a child.  They can't afford it.
    
    
    
    -m
    loyalty 

    re: .10
    
    	The Girl Scouts have such a badge!  It's called Ms. Fixit.  Last
    year the Society of Women Engineers at W.P.I. ran a 1 day workshop to 
    help Juniors (4th-5th-6th grade) earn it.  It was a real eye-opener for
    some of my scouts.  Even though I had told them that I was an engineer,
    and I slip math and science into the meetings when I can, there's
    nothing like seeing people they can identify with (the college women)
    talking about and doing engineering things.  Of course, the girls got
    lots of hands-on too.  It was such a success, W.P.I.'s S.W.E is
    planning to do it every year.  There is another college, nearer Boston
    (I can't remember which one) which also sponsors such a workshop.
    	I thought it was interesting that every college woman there had
    also been a Girl Scout.  
    

    As a girl in the fifties, I never considered becoming an engineer.
    I had daydreams about being a doctor or a veterinarian, but when
    I applied to college, I intended to major in history. 
    
    After one year in an all female college, I chose to major in 
    zoology.  I rejected an opportunity to continue in graduate school,
    mainly because I was in debt already and tired of having no money.
    All my life I had been encouraged to "use my mind", and praised for 
    earning all A's.  At the same time my father frequently told me that 
    there had never been any great female scientists.  Both of my parents 
    believed that Madame Curie achieved her results by persistence and 
    plodding, not by brilliance.  I am sure now that one reason I rejected 
    graduate school and research was my conviction that I would only spend 
    my life as a technician directed by a brilliant male scientist.
    Teaching had some independence and the chance of great influence.
    
    I think that pressures are more subtle now, at least in educated
    middle class white US families.  In other cultures, and other 
    countries, girls still receive obvious messages.  The Boston Society
    of Women Engineers created a coloring book to encourage the very
    young (boys and girls) to envision women as engineers.  The subtle
    discouraging messages start very young.  The fact that a girl has
    never met a woman engineer, may prevent her considering the
    possibility, especially now that some technical fields seem open.
    
    Fortunately, my college roommate who majored in math, introduced me 
    to the idea of computer programming.  Within 6 months I was a computer
    programmer - and the rest is history.  
    
    I absolutely identify with the statement that women (some? most?)
    are interested in pattern recognition.  I noticed very early that 
    my approach to many problems was different from that of male 
    colleagues.  I identified the difference as my skill in recognizing 
    patterns, which made me especially good at debugging.  I have also 
    found that my approach has enabled me to solve problems that male 
    colleagues found intractable.  I suspect that a higher percentage of 
    women in engineering would indeed change the way some problems are 
    solved, as well as the priority of problems to solve. 

    Pat  (formerly on foozle)