Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I've actually heard of woods meetings where the team-building exercises
    are really exercises done with the mind, not with the body.  And I've
    heard many of them work, too!
    
    I think team-building is an important skill that should not wait until
    we are grown-up.  Young girls often schism when they disagree, rather
    than working it out, or even learning to work beyond the upset for a
    purpose.  Boys realize early they need 9 people for a team, whether you
    like them all or not sometimes doesn't matter - if you want a play you
    need a team - and the people with the best skills aren't always the
    ones you'd choose as friends....I think girls need to learn this too,
    somehow.
    
    However, I also feel that this kind of "team play" can sacrifice
    personal feelings and goals too much.  If there is a combination of the
    two - working towards a common goal and rising above petty argument,
    and not sacrificing all the personal goals for the team's ultimate
    goal, then I think it works.  
    
    The ideal goals that team sports teaches are that everyone is best at
    one or a few things, and they should be used in that capacity - and
    that if everybody works together the team benefits - and these are
    really important.  Of course, one afternoon of softball isn't going to
    change anybody's mind about anything, particularly if not everyone
    participates....
    
    -Jody
    

If this happened to me, I would immediately trot to the organizer and, if the
old timers were in fact correct, tell them 1) I have standard fat-child
paranoia about sports (_especially_ team sports) and I would almost certainly
not play, 2) He or She is d*mn lucky all the members of their group have the
requisite bones and muscles for playing sports, and they'd better consider new
team building skills when Bush signs the handicapped bill into law (I just got
a DEC announcement on it today), and 3) I'll be glad to organize an alternative
that builds team building in the sense Jody brings out.
	Mez

>    off site is likely to be to our group, I was told by some old timers
>    that the half day of team building exercises will be your choice of
>    softball or basketball.
 
I think this is atrocious!!!  I would refuse to go!

I do NOT play team sports. And it bothers me that there is so much 
pressure for me to do so (like, for instance, to go to softball games
with my group.)  Since I was a child, a terminal klutz, I have hated
the experience of team sports; I feel embarassed, harassed and ugly
when I am forced through circumstance to get involved.

Making such a thing a team-building exercise would serve only to
exclude those like me and you who are not sports-minded (or in my
case, bodied.)  Yet ANOTHER way to be made to feel pressured and
uncomfortable by those you are supposed to work with.

The organizers should realize that many, many, many people have
unpleasant associations with team sports, esp. softball and basketball
which many of us were forced to play as kids, with the threat of either
social ostracization or failing out of school.  Sure, maybe I should
get over my almost phobic aversion to team sports, but it isn't my
company's place to take a "sink or swim" attitude about my personal
childhood traumas.

I have participated in some great team-building activities.  Some were
mental (like the old classic, have your team work out the best things
to take with you to a deserted island off a sinking ship); some were 
physical (we had to build a "fort" that would withstand attack from
other teams).  But all stressed individual contribution toward a team
goal that did *not* rest on your physical ability, but on your mental
ability and motivation, which are what is really relevent in a work
environment like DEC.

Grrrr.

D!

This reminds of the invitation I received to attend two days of valuing of
differences consciousness-raising. I was somewhat taken aback when at the
bottom I was told to wear jeans -- I didn't own any.

I called and asked if the jeans were required and was told that yes I was to
wear jeans.  So I returned my invitation with polite regrets that I would not
be attending as I did not wish to purchase jeans for two days of use.

My manager was soon contacted regarding my intransigence ...

Now back to our regularly scheduled discussion:

It seems to me that the best exercises that I've been a part of have always 
offered challenges that require a variety of insights/talents and all 
participants begin at a common point.  Generally team sports do not offer
this option past the age of 10 -- if that late.

I like the urban renewal idea, but the insurance waivers might be tough to 
procure.

  Annie

    
    Karen,
    
    I wouldn't bank on the "old timer's" knowing what's really going on; 
    if they're like the old timer's I've known, "team building activities" 
    has meant "new age, weird, touchy-feely" and they may be hoping 
    (desperately) that "team building," in this case, means those old 
    familiar games like softball and basketball.  Why don't you ask whoever's 
    getting this woods meeting together what the "team building" exercises 
    are going to be?  Whenever I've heard of groups participating in team 
    building exercises, the activity has NEVER been playing competitve sports.
    (The ones I've heard about usually have something to do with trust. It's 
    almost always included the exercise where you take turns being led
    while blindfolded/or leading a blindfolded person.) 
    
    I'd ask the ringleader for a more detailed agenda.
    
    CQ

    re .3  Exactly how I feel about group baseball.  I am in the group that
    apparently has an annual game against D!'s group.
    
    To build appropriate team feelings among a group of people that are
    supposed to, say, develop software products, the best training I can
    think of is to, as a group, develop software products!
    
    (Reminds me of what a tennis pro said when asked what the best exercise
    was to enhance playing of tennis.  He said "play tennis".)

    re Ann, purchasing jeans for two days of use, I seem to remember a much
    more direct answer of yours, perhaps in the snappy comebacks topic? ;-)
    
    I also fail to find utility in team 'sports' on a one- or two-day
    offsite as a team-building exercise.  In my experience, team sports
    build appreciation for the varying skills and strengths, as well as the
    varying weaknesses of the team, only when the team is together over an
    entire season of working together.  My direct experience in this goes
    back to Little League baseball, RYAA Soccer, 8 years in Boy Scouting
    including three summers as a full-summer counselor, 4 years of marching
    in a 100+ member marching band, and precision drill formations on an
    AFROTC drill team.  One-shot team sports are far more likely to
    result in injury (I couldn't dance for a month after our last offsite
    volleyball game last summer, neck strain) and in fact, if someone
    commits an embarassing, clumsy, or game-losing mistake, to tear down
    mutual support or team spirit, than to build it.
    
    In short, as team building, team sports aren't effective at
    off-sites, in my opinion.  Take it up with the organizers.
    
    DougO
    
   PS- And if subject to chafing and bleeding thighs, don't wear jeans ;-).

    
    My old group had similar woods meeting a couple of years ago.
    And, surprise!  Not all of the men wanted to play softball either!
    One brought a canoe (we were in a park with a small lake), and I
    organized a bicycle ride.  Ask around and find out what activities
    your coworkers like to do, then organize an alternate activity.
    
    As I recall, Mez didn't participate in any of the above.  She sat
    by herself and read her CACMs!  Not exactly a "team player", eh? :-)
    

Hey! I would have been glad to read the article on teaching computers out loud!
	Mez

    Once upon a time 9 near-strangers and I were cooped up in a tiny
    conference room at the Mill for two hours and told to formulate a
    comprehensive analysis of 'team' that could be presented in 10 minutes
    or less with the aid of at least one over-head slide.
    
    Oh, Joy! Be still my heart ...
    
    It was actually one of the best team-building exercises I've ever
    participated in.  We futzed around and talked in circles and got
    nothing accomplished for about 1.5 hours at which point one of the men
    & I got to talking 'off-line' as-it-were about our very different
    experiences with Outward Bound.  Well, wouldn't you know this punchy
    tired overheated group of near-strangers conceived of the idea that one
    of us should fall into the waiting arms of the rest of the team 
    as a part of our presentation -- me for choice as I am not not a large
    person hence the logic went harder to drop ... ?  We spent the last
    thirty minutes arguing and negotiating and learning a lot about the
    good of the group; the importance of the individual; the time and place
    for compromise and for capitulation; the strategic use of the goodwill
    gesture ...
    
    Our presentation really woke up the troops, even though no one had to
    fall over backward [once I gave up on weaseling out, they allowed as I
    didn't really need to ... so long as I would present our findings]
    
      Annie
    
    ps.7 Thank you, DougO for resurrecting that tawdry tacky bit from my
    past ... the snappy comeback was when my manager approached me.  I now
    own a pair of jeans that my sister thoughtfully broke in before
    becoming bored with them.  They are softer than silk and quite kind to
    me...

    Sorry, Annie, but that made such an impression, I've never forgotten it!
    
    ;-)  I'm glad you've got comfortable jeans now.
    
    DougO

    Thanks for relating these experiences and for your thoughts on the
    place of competitive sports in the business environment.  Keep 'em
    coming!  I knew there were better options, and agree with the response 
    that questions how much team building can take place when members of 
    the larger (business) team are expected to compete with each other on 
    the playing field.  Never mind those people (like me) who end up being 
    ridiculed and/or embarrassed.
    
    As for taking the initiative to offer some alternatives, in this
    situation that would be a bit like telling the bride that I'll come to
    her wedding reception if she'll allow me to set up a game of Bingo for
    those who don't want to dance.  I'm just a guest in the current
    situation, little better than an on-looker.  I'm a member of the
    business team in a fringe capacity, though I'd really like to feel like
    my contribution helps to make a difference in the long run.  Besides,
    this is my first "team building" experience with this group; maybe it
    won't be as bad as I fear.  I'll let you know.
    
    Oh, yes, I'm also relieved to know that other womannoters share my
    dislike of sports.  Sometimes today's fitness-minded world makes me
    feel like I'm totally out of step.  Add to that the confusion that
    comes from social conditioning that taught me at a young age that 
    "ladies don't do those things," only to be shown by later generations
    that ladies do, indeed, do those things and can even excel at them.  No
    wonder I'm messed up!
    
    Karen

I really don't think this kind of outing (sports in the guise of 
"team-building" is anything other than company-paid-for vacation for 
those who are fond of sports.

The "team-building" jargon is just an excuse to play.

    there were some team-building exercises presehted in a session at the
    last Toronto DECUS that were quite interesting and not especially
    athletic.
    
    1) was a sort of slow motion hopscotch / weaving exercise that required
    two teams to exchange ends of a set of squares they were standing on
    following a set of constraints.  The problem was intellectual and
    organizational.
    
    2) was to produce several squares from a set of puzzle pieces given teh
    constraint that you could only give pieces away, not ask for them.
    
    even terminal klutzes could succeed and learm something about working
    with others (this one did).
    
    /s/ Jim Williams

    Playing games for teambuilding?? You people get it easy!
    The new thing in Holland is to send the group on a kind of survival tour,
    inluding climbing, building rope bridges to cross streams, the lot.
    
    Charles

>>    Playing games for teambuilding?? You people get it easy!
>>    The new thing in Holland is to send the group on a kind of survival tour,
>>    inluding climbing, building rope bridges to cross streams, the lot.

	I wouldn't mind being sent to Holland for that. :-)

	My group's team building exercise involved ranking fifteen
	items for survival value priority, first individually, then
	as a group.  The group scores matched the experts' average
	ranking much better than the individual scores did.

	Dan

    We had a staff mtg at my manager's house last Friday. After the
    morning meeting we had a cook out and then played bocce and croquette.
    Even tho they are competetive games they are much lower pressure
    games than volley ball or softball and are games that not only
    the physically inept (like me) can do reasonably well at, but
    games that jocks are often handicapped at unless they've playe
    them a lot.
    
    There was a lot of good natured kidding around and friendly 
    banter, I'd recommend those games as a compromise between the
    stricly non competitive and things like softball and volleyball.
    
    Bonnie

    
    RE: "Outward Bound" type building courses
    
    Yup - I got sent on one of these in the UK.
    I was given two days notice before going and, being one of those who
    hates participating in teamsports and yomping around the "great
    outdoors", I was terrified.
    
    It turned out to be one of the best courses I've ever participated in.
    We were sent to the Lake District (way up North) and spent a week in
    exercises which were physical in implementation but needed a lot of
    brain-work and team work to make them happen. I climbed rocks,
    abseilled, and experienced many other things that I wouldn't have
    tried without the support of my colleagues. I learned a lot about
    myself, my fears, my limitations (real and imagined). 
    It was great!
    
    'gail
    

    First, let me preface this with stating that I was always nearly
    the last chosen for every sports team throughout grammar school.
    I cannot run fast, jump high, hit a ball with a bat, catch a ball,
    throw or bounce a ball with any sort of precision.  The only team
    sports I can play acceptably (and only acceptably!) is volleyball,
    and *maybe* hockey (the ice kind; the one year I was on the school
    field hockey team I earned the nickname "hack" for my propensity
    to dig up chunks of sod instead of hitting the ball.)  My complex
    about my team-sports ability could *stretch* from here to Holland.

    But... I volunteer for team-building competitive sports.  It is *not*
    because I am good at them (I'm most certainly not).  It is because
    my understanding of a team-building activity like this is that
    the teambuilding occurs not during the sporting activity itself,
    but in the talking and interaction that the sporting activity
    engenders.  As I learned throughout school, if you're not one of
    the real players (read "ball hogs") on a team, you will be doing
    a lot of standing around (and talking and interacting).  If I don't
    like the choice of competitive sports offered, I try to volunteer
    as one of the organizers the next time.

    The point in team-building competitive sports is *not* to win.
    The point is to get to know each other while you're playing the 
    game, and interact with people in the group that you normally wouldn't
    see much.

    I'm in the same group as Paul (.6).  We're a large group, and we
    develop software products.  But we don't all do it together.  My
    project team is a team because we work together, but what makes
    us a group is less tangible (or as tangible as an org chart, take
    your pick). The point is, I'm not about to suggest we form a project
    team of 100+ for a day and attempt to build a software product.
    If we're going to build group cohesiveness, I think it has to take
    other forms.

    If I were in Karen's situation, I would probably "be a good sport"
    about it, choose softball, strike out during my two times at bat, 
    and play outfield (it's not too embarrasing to miss a ball that's 
    20 feet away).  More likely, it would be possible to do something
    else entirely during the time that those who enjoy team sports were
    playing team sports, such as stand around and talk.  If I were 
    required to attend an event that specified jeans and I didn't own 
    any, I'd wear the closest thing I had (casual skirt, pants, shorts, 
    whatever) and let other people complain if they wanted to.

    Sure, some of these events show evidence of people not valuing
    differences very well.  But you're not valuing your own difference
    if you always complain and therefore highlight yourself as "not part
    of the team"... because long after "who missed the ball at second base"
    is forgotten, that's what people will remember.

	Sharon
    

    re. .20 (COBWEB::SWALKER)
    
    > Sure, some of these events show evidence of people not valuing
    > differences very well.  But you're not valuing your own difference
    > if you always complain and therefore highlight yourself as "not part
    > of the team"... because long after "who missed the ball at second base"
    > is forgotten, that's what people will remember.

    Good points, Sharon.  Thanks.
    
    Karen
    

    
    
    re last few
    
    But....  in a way that's the problem.  Go along or you'll look like a
    poor sport, and folks will remember that longer than they remember
    how well or badly you played the game.  I know that having to strike
    out at softball isn't really that important in the whole scheme of
    things, but certainly, an activity that's meant to encourage a sense
    of team shouldn't cause anxiety in some folks on the team.  It sounds
    like there's not much the basenoter can do to change the plans for
    this team builder, but maybe her telling the story here will raise
    the awareness of those of us who might be in a position to plan
    a similar activity for our groups.
    
    I guess this pushed a button for me, because I think women are often
    forced to go along with something that doesn't feel right or they'll
    be left out or ridiculed.   (e.g. ignoring or laughing along at sexist
    jokes, finding a graceful way to deal with unwanted sexual advances --
    let's not hurt his feelings -- what about *my* feelings?!) 
    
    Justine                                                   

New Games might be a good alternative to traditional competitve sports
for this type of thing.  They are meant to be cooperative and
teambuilding by their nature.  Play hard, no one hurt is the motto...

There's a couple of good books out describing them.

john

    In response to my:
    >>an activity that's meant to encourage a sense
    >>of team shouldn't cause anxiety in some folks on the team. 

    Mark said:
    >>Can you think of any activity that does not have the potential to 
    >>cause anxiety for at least some people on the team? (I can't).
                                  
    You're right, of course, so why even try?  I mean no one could sue,
    arrest, or fire you for choosing a team building activity that makes
    some folks feel left out.  I personally would prefer to work for
    someone who cares about whether or not the folks in his/her group
    actually get something out of the team-building exercise s/he plans.
    I'd also like to work for someone that it would feel safe to speak up
    to if a planned activity didn't work for me.  That way s/he could
    do his/her best to be inclusive, and s/he would know whether or not
    s/he'd been successful, because folks in the group would feel
    comfortable giving feedback.  
    
    Justine                                                            

    
    my father in the last few years he taught at the high school was
    the faculty advisor for the cheerleading squad. we talked about it
    a little and a few things stood out. he had a huge squad, 20-30 girls.
    one girl came up to him and said, 'mr. white we've got too many
    people'. my dad replied with a grin, 'nope, we don't have *enough*'.
    also, he made a point that *every* girl on the squad be able to do
    *every* jump, yell, or whatever the hell it is cheerleaders do.
    sometimes this meant my dad spent more time working with specific
    girls to learn the cheer. more often, it meant *not doing* whatever
    cheer it was that was too difficult or uncomfortable for the *entire*
    squad. it seemed like a pretty good way to build a team.