Conference turris::womannotes-v3

... a constitutional amendment in the works ...

    One of the Red Hot Chili Peppers mooning Tipper Gore.
    
    Lisa

    
    She's a class act alright.
    
    
    Mike

    I think she's hysterical.
    	Linda

    re.4 >She's a class act alright.
    
    If it wasn't for low-class she'd have no class. I only wish
    somebody would have slapped her face afterwards. Another name
    for my personal boycott list.

    
    	RE: .4  Mike Wannemacher
    
    	>  -< Puke >-
    
    	>  She's a class act alright.
    
    	In Mennotes yesterday (in the Andrew Dice Clay topic,) you stated
    	that you feel sorry for people who are unable to laugh at themselves
    	as people or as a stereotyped group.
    
    	I notice that you aren't laughing now yourself.
    

    just listen to her speaking voice...it should be obvious that she can't
    sing.  if they wanted a good singing rendition, they should've hired
    Jessye Norman.
    
    I mean, I love my father, but I wouldn't want him singing in public!
    
    daniel

    	RE: 258.8
    
    	Daniel,
    
    	Regarding speaking voice and singing voice...
    
    	After I returned from Vietnam, I spent my leave time at
    	my mother's. One evening, she asked me if I wanted to
    	watch the Jim Nabors show with her. I said, "You mean
    	Gomer Pyle has a show. What's he do?" When she said
    	"Sing," I almost died laughing.
    
    	I said, "How can a person that talks like that sing?"
    
    	When he started singing, I just kinda sat there, open-
    	mouthed and amazed.
    
    	I do agree, though, if they want someone with a tremendous
    	voice, get Jessye Norman or Kathleen Battle, or any number
    	of woman/men/....
    
    	Scott

    Out national anthem is difficult to play or sing for the best of
    musicians so why would anyone expect Roseanne to do it any better?
    Perhaps she was making some sort of statement to that effect?
    Then again, maybe it was just all in fun.  I think she's hilarious.
    
    Sue

    	RE: 258.10
    
    	I agree about difficult to sing.
    
    	Maybe, like many advocate, we ought to can the current
    	NA and get one that's easier to sing and doesn't glorify
    	war and battle.
    
    	America, the Beautiful, or something like that would do
    	nicely.
    
    	Scott

    
    Gee, and I thought the interesting part was how she touched her
    crotch and spat on the field -- you know, just like a ball player.
    I've never heard anyone make our National Anthem sound good.  In fact,
    back when I was thinking about becoming a singer, I thought, wow, if
    I can make the National Anthem sound good, I'll have really arrived.
    Good thing I still have this day job, eh?
    
    Justine 

    re: -.1
    
    *grin*  That song is bloddy impossible to sing!  It reminds me of
    Forbidden Broadway's parody of Man of La Mancha..
    
    "To sing, the unreachable note!"
    
    Yeah, I thought the crotch gesture and spit were just imitating ball
    players too.  How many times can you watch a ball game and see camera
    shots of players just standing there, happily scratching their
    crotches?
    
    it is to die for...and with the President of Czchekoslovakia meeting
    with Kurt Waldheim at Salzburg, they run this as a top story on the 11
    o'clock news?
    
    yeah, right.
    
    daniel

re .11

>America, the Beautiful, or something like that would do
>nicely.

I agree totally!  Especially if it is sung by Ray Charles!

-Hamp

I don't know how she sings, but I love the story about her
imitating the Ball Player Scratch'n Spit. What a riot!

Kathy

    re .12, what about Jimi Hendrix?  That sounded pretty good.
    (Well,you're too young to remember, Justine, but you've probably seen
    the movie.)
    
    Lorna
    

    Roseanne didn't sing, or even attempt to.  She screeched.  It may have
    been social commentary, but whether or no it was awful to listen to.
    
    I interpreted the crotch grab and spitting as a gesture of contempt for
    the crowd, most of which was booing her at the time.  I've watched
    enough baseball to have rolled my eyes heavenward about a million times
    when the players do similar things, but while pretty gross and in poor
    taste they are clearly not expressing contempt.
    
    YES THE STAR SPANGLED BANNER can be sung well!  And even correctly!
    (pet peeve: it's not 'ba-a-ner-er ye-et wa-ave'
    		it's	 'baa -ner-er ye-et wa-ave'	 :')
    
    Linda Rondstat sang it stupendously to open a Red Sox game once.  And
    as previously noted Ray Charles did a fantastic job.  Mostly it's
    merely ok.  Fairly often I can top it, even with a sore throat.  Yes it
    is hard to sing, you need a good range and the ability to hear the
    pitch of your own voice, but it can be done.  Especially if you're
    trying.

    I heard on the news today that they asked her to grab her crotch and
    spit like the ball players.  She mentioned that maybe she did do it
    just a little to close to finishing the song, but she was anxious to
    get out of there.
    
    Therese
    

    Suzanne,
    
          Please exscuse my patriotism.  It is a rare commodity these days.
    
    Mike

    Personally I thought it was VERY poor taste!  The singing and the
    crotch grabbing.  
    
    Disgusted!
    
    

    	RE: .20  Mike Wannemacher
    
    	> Please exscuse my patriotism.  It is a rare commodity these days.
    
    	Not to worry, Mike.  I was just teasing you (in my earlier note.)
    
    	I've already resigned myself to the double standard involved with
    	being told that if we DON'T laugh at Andrew Dice Clay, then we must
    	not have the ability to laugh at ourselves - but that if we DO laugh
    	at Roseanne's song, then we must not care about our country.
    
    	One way or another, there's a steep price to be paid if fail to laugh
    	(or insist on laughing) at comic moments without the express direction
    	from The Guide to Political Correctness For the Politically Incorrect.
    
    	Sorry if I forgot to salute.  ;^)

            
    re .22, Dice Clay -
       
    Our media have a long tradition of making fun of women. In the 19th
    century, cartoonists had a field day when women went around in bloomers 
    instead of the usual acreage of skirts, and when they started serving on 
    juries, and when they (gasp) tried to get the vote...these days, it seems,
    women are there for chuckles just because they're women.
                        
    There must be money in it,
    
    Dorian

    Or, as an alternate national anthem...
    
    How about:  Material Girl?
    
    Only we could change all the words to gender neutral words...
    
    "We are living in a material world,
    And I am a material person..."
    
    Kinda catchy, yes?  And clearly, given the salaries that these
    crotch-scratching, tobacco-spitting ball players receive, I think that
    some version of Material Girl is far more appropriate than all that
    smarmy talk about patriotism.  And if you want politically
    correct...hey, you've got it all.  After all, we print, "In God We
    Trust" all over our money!
    

    I had the TODAY show on yesterday while getting ready for work and
    heard this awful noise coming from the living room.  I was sure
    my cat had his paw caught in something.  NOPE!  It was Roseanne
    singing the National Anthem.  Then I thought... "My cat sounds better
    than her singing when he is in pain!"
    
    Pretty soon the TV will be hawking her album "Roseanne's Greatest
    Hits" on one of those 900 numbers!
    
    Susan
    

Roseanne Barr is known for being a comedian, not a singer. I'm
surprised she was even asked to sing the National Anthem.

Unless, of course, they wanted exactly what they got.....

Kathy

    But seriously folks.  I think it was something that she thought was
    going to be funny that backfired.  She should just tell "the untold
    story" (although we'll probably get it next week in the Inquirer)
    instead of making up excuses.  I've heard several excuses so far, none
    of them from Roseanne.
    
    
    Mike

    
    It could be that something that she thought would be funny backfired
    if you consider the reaction of the crowd at the game. Or maybe
    she was playing to a larger audience?  Kind of like John Silber's
    remark about Gloria Steinem -- he certainly knew he would get booed
    by the women and men who were there to hear a debate on women's issues, 
    but maybe he thought it would play well in the Boston Herald and with 
    the folks he's trying to attract.
    
    Justine -- hmm I wonder what RB would say if she knew I compared her
               to John Silber...
    

    Now just what did these folks expect when they asked a commediene that
    doesn't sing to do this? Get real, nobody thought this would be a
    serious rendition of the song. As for the crotch grab, out local news
    refered to it as an *obscene* gesture. Why is it obscene for her but
    OK for the big bucks ball players. She didn't even have any body parts
    to grab there.

    I agree with Lorna, I've always loved the Hendrix version. At the time
    he did it people thought *that* was obscene. liesl

    	RE:  .27  Mike Wannemacher
    
    	This gets funnier and funnier!  (Not you, personally, but this
    	whole thing!)
    
    	>But seriously folks.  I think it was something that she thought was
    	>going to be funny that backfired.  
    
    	I love this!  When Nora Dunn and Sinead O'Connor protested against
    	Andrew Dice Clay, a lot of people said that their gesture BACKFIRED
    	because Dice got so much attention for it.  Many people said that
    	"no publicity is bad publicity" (and that he couldn't have PAID for
    	the kind of media exposure he got out of this thing.)
    
    	Now that we have Roseanne on the front page and headlining national
    	news - this time, the incident BACKFIRED AGAINST HER because
    	some people don't like what she did (with NO MENTION of all the
    	priceless publicity she's getting for all this, of course.)
    
    	I guess publicity only helps male entertainers, eh (and women
    	are subject to having things BACKFIRE on us whether we're the ones
    	complaining or the ones doing the thing some people find offensive.)
    
    	(By the way, I even love the whole concept of saying that things
    	"backfired" - it's a classic form of retaliation to claim that
    	someone's actions resulted in hurting themselves.)
    
    	> She should just tell "the untold story" (although we'll probably 
    	> get it next week in the Inquirer) instead of making up excuses.  
    	> I've heard several excuses so far, none of them from Roseanne.
    
    	I also love how anything said in favor of Roseanne is considered
    	"making up excuses."  Whereas people were condemned quite loudly
    	for not finding the humor in Andrew Dice Clay, Roseanne needs to
    	have excuses for what she does.
    
    	This really is funny!  ;^)

  I was more impressed by the reaction she's been getting than by the
  incident itself, and I agree wholeheartedly that the contrast between
  the reaction to Barre and the reaction to Clay is very instructive.

  (Her profferred story, by the way, is that she starting getting booed
  by the fourth note, considered whether she ought to just quit singing,
  decided she couldn't do that and just decided to stay and rush her way
  through the rest of it.  She also stated that the spitting and crotch
  grabbing was expressly meant as satire of the ball players' behavior.)

  On the "McLaughlan Group", if Pat Buchanan called her fat once, he
  must have said it a half-dozen times.  As if that mattered.  He also
  called for a boycott of corporations that sponsor her tv show�.

  His reaction was typical of most that I heard.  Chett Curtis (on the
  Boston TV-5 news) was similarly "kind".

                                   Atlant


� Boycotts by right wingers are, of course, entirely appropriate economic
  action.  Boycotts by others are the unfair singling out of innocent
  bystanders, among other things.

    re:.9 (Jim Nabors)
    
    I think your analogy doesn't hold water. I believe that the "Gomer
    Pyle" voice is an affectation, and that Nabors actually speaks in
    as good a voice as he sings.
    
    re:.20
    
    Please don't excuse personal taste with patriotism. You may find
    what Barr did repugnant, but that doesn't make it unpatriotic.
    
    re:.29
    
    That's just right. A lot of people *did* think Hendrix's version
    was "obscene" and "unpatriotic". Just as a lot of people thought
    JESUS CHRIST SUPERSTAR was blasphemous and obscene for using
    "filthy, disgusting *rock* music" when talking about the Lord.
    
    --- jerry

 
       	Something else...

    	The movie "Naked Gun" featured a scene where a very terrible
    	singer butchered the National Anthem at a baseball game as
    	part of the comedy of the movie - and no one launched nation-
    	wide protests about the act being disgusting and/or unpatriotic.

    	I don't recall any mention being made of people being offended
    	when this male actor (and a Hollywood studio) wrote and filmed
    	this scene to be shown to millions and millions of people in
    	theatres, on cable and now available on videocassette.

    	Obviously, the big deal in the more recent incidence is that 
    	Roseanne did it.

    	RE: .34  Mike Z.

    	People at the ballpark were booing at Roseanne's song well before
    	she grabbed and spit - they booed her before she started screeching
    	the notes.

    	People can always think of excuses not to like what Roseanne did
    	- even if they put down others for not liking Andrew Dice Clay
    	(and I'm not referring to you here.)

    	It's a double standard (and a very nicely timed one.)  ;^)

    
        <<< Note 258.20 by MAMTS5::MWANNEMACHER "let us pray to Him" >>>
    
    >> Please exscuse my patriotism.  It is a rare commodity these days.
    
    You ought to be grateful for that...
    
    Bo
    

    	Friday, Roseanne and Tom were on CNN. She said something
    	to the effect that "People are making a big fuss about me
    	singing the NA and yet people are allowed to go out and
    	burn the flag, which I don't agree with.... I just want
    	all this to stop."
    
    	I figure that, if they wanted the NA sung well, they
    	woulda gotten someone with a track record as a singer.
    
    	Scott

    depends upon what frequencies you can hear...

>    depends upon what frequencies you can hear...

Yeah, all the Fuzzies in the audience loved it!

D!

    
    RE: showed artistic merit?
    
    I think it had great artistic value. Much more than having someone
    sing it 'properly' like has been done millions of times already. 
    For me it highlighted the stupidity of the whole thing. IT IS ONLY
    A BASEBALL GAME!! Why does everyone take it so seriously (other 
    than REAL MEN taking sports very seriously, seemingly more seriously 
    than their wives and family in some older men I know).
    
    It is only a REGIONAL baseball game. Why the hell do they sing a
    NATIONAL anthem at a game anyway? Where did this come from? It is not an
    international event. Why pledge oath to your country at a baseball
    game? How did this originate? I've always felt that it was an extremely
    stupid place to sing the national anthem. If anything it ridicules the
    anthem itself (like playing it before a pool game or skate board
    competition, making it less than serious). Didn't they do the same
    thing in Nazi Germany, singing national anthems at every small
    gathering or sports event. My European friends are amazed at the
    blatant nationalism shown... at a trivial baseball GAME.
    
    Artistic value - yes! I like what RB had to say in response, something
    like 'Sorry. But if this has been the most tragic thing that has
    happened in your life then I consider you a very lucky person who
    should not be complaining about something so trivial'. I also liked 
    how the media called it an "obscene gesture." I wonder how many times
    Pete Rose made "obscene gestures" on the field during his career. We 
    teach our boys that REAL American men always scratch their privates... 
    right after signing the National Anthem.
    
    My reaction was "Good for you Rosanne!"
    
    -Erik
    
    PS- to call her unpatriotic makes me laugh. I think people had better
    re-examine what being patriotic means. Linking patriotism to a baseball
    game underscores the trivialization of loyalty to your country (not to
    the NFL or NBA or the Chicago Cubs, but the COUNTRY).

    re .38>The performance was vulgar.
    
    She's made a career of it. Lots of money. What's new ? 

    I don't even think Ms. Barr has exceptional talent. Her on-screen
    hubby carries the show.
    
    Kate

    As another noter elsewhere points out...
    
    So what happens now?  Will Bush ask Congress to pass a Constitutional
    amendment making it a crime to sing the national anthem off key?
    
    --- jerry

    Hmm,
    
    Imagine this. Rosanne Barr, 5'2", eyes of blue, long blond hair,
    one hundred pounds.
    
    Would the reaction to her singing and actions be the same?
    

    yes
    

    uh, let's be fair, Maia is probably right.
    
    daniel

    Thanks Daniel.
    
    Actually.  I just asked you to imagine the scene.  Would there be
    a difference in reaction?  I'm thinking of Charo who seems to
    get lots of positive attention; also, the woman who periodically
    runs out on the field to give the pitcher a kiss, and who then
    is gently escorted off.  Are they just sort of tolerated, thought of
    as kinda cute and funny? 
    
    As far as Roseanne's 'obscene' gestures go--as said before, we
    see it all the time on the field, the scratching, spitting out
    globs of tobacco juice.  Are the players desecrating the anthem,
    the flag, the country by doing this?  If not, then why do you assume
    Roseanne descrated all that above by simply mimicking the players.
    
    Play fair you guys.
    Maia
    

    
    As I see it, she's a "bad woman" - not living up to society's
    expectations of proper womanhood - on four counts:
    
    1. She's fat
    
    2. She made fun of the (bombs bursting in air) national anthem
    
    3. She made fun of baseball
    
    4. She made fun of men
    
    
    Not that long ago, she'd have been burned as a witch.
     
    D.

    Charo, when not playing the ditz, actually is a very talented
    performer. Check out her guitar playing if you can.
    
    The 'reaction' wasn't to Ms. Barr's appearance but to her 
    hatchet-job on the national-anthem. Believe it or not, some
    people won't take that kind of crap from anyone, attractive
    or otherwise. Loni Anderson would have gotten the same treatment.

    Not just because "she's female," but because she's considered to be an
    unattractive female and because her popularity has been going WAY down
    already.  I think Maia has a point -- if it had been Dolly Parton,
    people would have been laughing and clapping at the grab'n'spit
    routine, because the crowd would have given her the benefit of the
    doubt to begin with.
    
    I think the brouhaha about this is completely overreacting.
    
    She was asked to sing and she can't sing.
    People started booing her.
    She's a stand-up comedian and her first reaction to a booing crowd was
     to camp it up and try to go for laughs.
    She failed.  
    Big deal.
    
    It was a flopped joke, in my estimation, not a deliberately planned and
    executed desecration of our sacred flag and our hallowed national
    anthem, both of which are taken too seriously at sporting events, in my
    opinion.  It's not like she has incorporated flag desecration into a
    stand-up routine she does every night!
    
    Pam

    Sorry.  In response to that "five foot two, eyes of blue" image,
    all I could think of was:
    
    	"A hundred and one
    	 pound of fun,
    	 that's my little
    	 honeybun."
    
    sung by Mary Martin while dancing inside a naval seaman's uniform
    in "South Pacific".
    
    							Ann B.

                   
    Aw, come on.  What if Dice were singing at the Miss America Pageant
    and threw in a "Dice-ism" or 2?  Would the world be angry at him for
    trashing such a sacred institution?  Nope.  (Well maybe Bert Parks might
    be angry).  But the rest of the world would be laughing at the
    contestants who expressed anger, brushing them off with a "What did you
    expect?"  The joke's on the boys this time, tho.  Whoa!  Major hassle 
    time. Who does she think she is!  Get the Today show in on this one!
    Blah, blah, blah.  2 Live Crew, Mapplethorpe and Dice have "freedom of 
    expression".  Gee, what a coincidence - all male!  (well, ok, Mapple-
    thorpe's on the edge since his targets aren't women), 
    
    But that's enough freedom of expression.  We've made the gesture so 
    let's not carry this freedom thing too far - certainly not to females 
    or at least certainly not to *fat* females who don't display the proper 
    deference and respect to all that men hold dear.  Sure, a man can burn
    the flag to make a statement but should a [fat] woman be allowed to 
    "burn" the anthem?  And at a baseball game, no less??  Well since 
    Roseanne, (and not Dolly or Charo), has forced us into makine a decision,
    it's decided that yes, trashing the anthem at a baseball game will be 
    considered far worse than flag burning on the anti-patriotism scale.  
    Now we can say it wasn't cuz it was Roseanne, (and cuz we just don't 
    like fat women who make fun of us and make us feel silly), it was cuz 
    the anthem was trashed. 
    
    And the average person who expects opinions to be given to him/her, 
    nods and glares at Roseanne.  Ha!  Women get upset at Dice and guys
    just laugh and fully expect him to stay around.  Men get upset at
    Roseanne and women are expected not to laugh, (gasp!), but to take this 
    as seriously as men do and to see the "error" in Roseanne and further, 
    people fully expect that there will be some serious fallout from her 
    displeasing men, that her career will or at least should come to a 
    screeching halt because of it.  But we do acknowledge that Dice's, 
    irreverance, (the man who trashes women and what women hold sacred, 
    remember?), is often funny, protected by the constitution and will bring 
    him great wealth.  How can anyone miss the blatant double standard
    here?  How can anyone not see where men's priorities lie?  Generally 
    with themselves, and themselves alone.  It's your turn to be humiliated
    now, guys.  Just repeat for yourselves everything you've said to women 
    who complain about Dice.  (and no, I'm not one of them - I love 'em 
    both!)  
    
                   Hickory dickory dock,
                   Oh, how Roseanne can mock.
                   She sang at a game,
                   And increased her fame,
                   By giving ole' baseball a knock.
    
                   Hickory dickory dock,
                   Hoo boy, can that Roseanne mock!
                   The job was a botch,
                   So she grabbed at her crotch,
                   And gave the ole' boys a shock!
                           

    re: .56
    
    Sandy,
    
    All I can say is:
    			** EXCELLENT **
    
    -Dotti

    re .56 Your reply totally ignores the possibility that there 
    are *women* who love this country and feel outrage at Ms. Barr's
    actions. Last I heard love of country wasn't an exclusively
    male emotion.

    .58
    For fear of sounding stupid, *what does love of country possibly
    have to do with what Roseanne did?*
    
    Hey, maybe she just had an itch?
    

    
    	RE: .58
    
    	Love of one's country :== loving an idiotic baseball tradition??
    
    	This wasn't a Fourth of July commemoration to our country. It was a
    	meer baseball game. What if she had baked an untraditional apple
    	pie? GET REAL!
    
    	-Erik (who must be unpatriotic because he thinks baseball is one of
    	the most boring sports ever devised) <sarcasm> 

    well,
    
    in your opinion I suppose.  In my opinion, spitting on the ground
    is messy and dirty, but sure doesn't show disrepect for the *country*
    of all things.
    

    I was referring to the screeching of the national anthem.

    No, Dana, patriotism isn't exclusively male but it is predominantly
    male.  So what's your point?  That it truly is patriotism that we're
    talking about here?  Remember when the "grownups" freaked out when 
    Peter Fonda wore a flag on the back of his motorcycle jacket?  Oh, and
    remember draft card burners?  Well now *we're* the grownups.  All of 
    you who are outraged at Roseanne - were you outraged at draft card
    burners?  Did you sign right up when you turned 18?  
                                                      
    Irreverance always has been and always will be with us.  The only ground 
    Roseanne broke is being a woman doing it.

    >Note 258.65 
    >GEMVAX::CICCOLINI  
    
   >That it truly is patriotism that we're
    talking about here?  
    
    Gee, I thought so.  She grabbed her crouch and spit, sort of like a
    joke..ya know?  like when all of the ball players do it?
    
    >All of 
    >you who are outraged at Roseanne - were you outraged at draft card
    >burners?  
    
    No, was too young then, but rest assured, I would have been!
    
    >Did you sign right up when you turned 18?  
     
    um, no.. actually, I JOINED at 17!
                                                     
    >Irreverance always has been and always will be with us.  
    
    Maybe in YOUR opinion.  People that are not so bent on gender wars
    might feel otherwise.
    
    >The only ground 
    >Roseanne broke is being a woman doing it.
    
     Again, see above.  You are LOOKING for a gender thing, when there isnt.
    
    it is because she hacked the hell out of a symbol for freedom, thats
    why.
    
    IMHMO
    
    ^ "In my humble male opinion.

    > It is because she hacked the hell out of symbol for freedom
    
    
    and aren't we glad she has the freedom to do just that?  I'm much
    happier that she has the freedom to do a number on the *symbol* than
    I'll ever be upset that she did anything to the symbol -- jingoism
    scares the willies out of me.
    
    a few more cents,
    
    daniel

    re .66. So, she can't sing. At least not by any standards I ever heard
    of. So what? She was invited to sing the anthem at a baseball game.
    This is not something that happens to a lot of people. She was probably
    thrilled to be asked. THen she probably realizes that she can't sing a
    note that wouldn't send a cat running for cover. What does she think?
    Well, if it were me, I'd think, "Hey I'm a comic. Maybe if I make it
    look as if I'm not trying, I'll get a laugh and maybe I'll be respected
    for not botching it up as I would have if I actually tried to sing it.
    Just for good measure, I'll throw in a crotch grab and spit on the
    ground. Those are real baseball things to do and that'll get a laugh
    too." The only problem here is that there are to many uptight citizens
    out there that can't take a joke. It was simply a case of playing to a
    nonreceptive audience and in the crotch and spit case, bad timing of
    the joke. I'm sure that during her stand up routines in nightclubs, she
    has run across nonreceptive audiences before. I don't think that being
    a woman had anything to do with it. I would be horrified to find that
    out. My word, we are hopefully pretty much an enlightened species
    aren't we? 
    
    I do tend to ramble. I just don't think she trashed the anthem so much
    as she gave it an interpretation. It didn't work except for me and a
    few others. Hendrix did it at Woodstock and he was knocked, but today
    it's a classic tune. It worked for me then too.
    
    Phil

    I didn't realize that if I sang the national anthem off key that I
    would be considered unpatriotic.  Maybe everyone who sings it off key
    or every person who mispronounces the words of the Pledge of
    Allegiance should be taken out back and summarily shot...
    
    Jim

RE:         <<< Note 258.47 by WAHOO::LEVESQUE "Resist me not; surrender" >>>

>     Of course not! We stupid men who can only think with the smaller of
>    our two heads would be creaming at the sounds of her howling. Why we'd
>    be calling the station 100 times each to get them to replay the tape.
>    it'd be the new replacement for Kate Smith's "God Bless America." We'd
>    have posters made of this delightful creature. She'd be selling out
>    stadiums across the globe where screaming men would throw their
>    underwear at her. She'd instantly become the single most effective
>    sales device, after all, no men can say no to a sexy woman, right?
>    The reaction would be completely different, diametrically opposed even,
>    because men could never, ever judge a woman's performance solely on the
>    basis of that performance. men can only judge a woman's performance on
>    the basis of how much he'd like to take her to bed. It's in the genes.
>    men are simply incapable of being objective when it comes to women.

Trying to get laid, Mark???

    I'd hate to think of you wearing out your little tune.
    
    							Ann B.

    
    	RE: .72  Ann
    
    	No chance of wearing it out.  
    
    	He's still in the process of perfecting it.
    

    .71,
    
    "this file would have another topic for ranting and raving"...
    
    what's that old saying about the kitchen? and what one does if there's
    too much heat in it?
    
    Dorian

    
    RE: .66
    
    > it is because she hacked the hell out of a symbol for freedom, thats
    > why.
    
    	Now we have Baseball = a symbol of freedom. 
    
	Oh goodness! Where do we find these people! :-)
    
    	[Maybe I fell alseep during the "baseball = symbol of freedom"
    	lecture in my political science classes. Maybe Congress should
    	include baseball uniform burning in the flag-burning bill. Can my
    	favorite sports of bicycle racing and swimming be included in the
    	Symbols of Freedom list too?]
    
      

    
    I am amazed this has gone on soooo long!  Honestly its just
    unbelievable...i mean, its not as if there aren't 'real' problems
    facing this country which should be addressed or anything....
    
    I can't imagine why anyone would ask Roseanne to sing in the
    first place, but once there, how could anyone expect anything
    other than wild, bawdy, silliness?  What would you expect from
    George Carlin?  or Bette Midler (though she can at least sing...
    and i do think if all the brouhaha was about her she'd just 
    respond with her infamous line--"**ck 'em if they can't take a joke"
    
    unpatriotic---nope
    disgusting--nope
    disgraceful--nope
    hard on my ears--yes
    silly and stupid--yes
    funny--to some...like anything...
    
    
    deb_sitting_here_shaking_my_head_in_disbelief....
    

    re: -.1

    Oh no, Bette Middler says "Hey, Mother F**ckers" and just leaves it at
    that. it would have been a great intro to a "ball" game. :*) liesl

    Might I remind everyone of 1.7 & 1.15?  Nothing has crossed the line
    yet, but some have come close. 

    
    re: .34
    
/	That gesture can be taken as an overt act of disrespect for a
/    national symbol, like desecrating a flag.
    
    somebody get me a match, i want to practice my constitutional
    right to make a political statement
    
    
    
    oh come on......can't ya take a joke?
    
    (besides, burning a flag would allow people to legally beat me up...
     they would have to pay a $50 fee...i mean FINE...for the privilege)
    

    Somehow, I have mercifully not heard Roseann's rendition of the anthem,
    but I can imagine it.
    
    Some of the controversy is a result of the city where the performance
    took place (as has been pointed out elsewhere).  San Diego has a *huge*
    military population, both active and retired.  Those folks get serious
    about their symbols, because in that environment they have real meaning
    - folks die to rescue the flag.  Good, bad, or indifferent, that's the
    culture they live in.  Similarly, the national anthem is played and/or
    sung a lot more often on post than off, and military members (and their
    families) are expected to be *very respectful* when it is heard.  If
    you aren't, it is grounds for disciplinary action.
    
    This mind-set carried into the ball park at that location.  Even the
    ballplayers stand at attention during the anthem, and don't scratch,
    spit or what have you until they have moved away from the spot they
    stood on during it's playing.  From what I can tell from the popular
    descriptions, Roseanne followed her rendition of the anthem with her
    'joke' almost immediately.  She goofed, she didn't consider the
    audience, nor did she do enough research to figure out how to make it
    come off as a joke.  Team management goofed in asking her to perform; 
    they didn't consider the talents of the individual for the job to be 
    done.
    
    Hopefully, everyone involved has learned a lesson, and we can go
    forward from here with some dignity by refusing to give the incident
    more weight than it deserves.
    
    Alison

      Although Mike Z has already made it clear, I felt it was my dute as a
    mobster to point out exactly what it looks like to see a persons words
    twisted to fit another persons meaning;
    
    
    
      >Note 258.76   
      >CYCLST::DEBRIAE
    
    
    
    >RE: .66
    
    >> it is because she hacked the hell out of a symbol for freedom, thats
    >> why.
    
    >	Now we have Baseball = a symbol of freedom. 
    
    >	Oh goodness! Where do we find these people! :-)
    
    >	[Maybe I fell alseep during the "baseball = symbol of freedom"
    >	lecture in my political science classes. Maybe Congress should
    >	include baseball uniform burning in the flag-burning bill. Can my
    >	favorite sports of bicycle racing and swimming be included in the
    >	Symbols of Freedom list too?]
    
     
    now, if you didn't twist my meaning so darn hard... would you have been
    able to enter your note?  I thought not.  NEXT! 

    re:.56
    
    Sandy, I loved that nursery rhyme. May I have permission to send it to
    around to a few friends? I'll delete your name if you wish.
    
    Kate 

Alison, I remeber Rosanne moving away from the spot she stood on before
spitting and scratching. It's a nit, but it's interesting how well she
parallelled accepted baseball practice.
	Mez

    She didn't scratch or spit during the National Anthem.
    She didn't scratch or spit where she sang the National Anthem.
    And still someone protests that she trashed the National Anthem.
    And still someone protests that he was misrepresented by equating
    baseball to the National Anthem.
    And still some man is willing to back him up.
    
    							Ann B.

    RE: .83
    
    Both my notes were heavy on the sarcasm.  But perhaps you could help
    to enlighten me on a practice I've never understood anyway...
    
    Q. If the National Anthem is a serious performance of scared national
    value (which I think it is), WHY is it being played at a *baseball*
    game? 
    
    Q. How and why did this start? 
    
    Q. Doesn't this seem like a cheap way of lending significance to an
    otherwise trivial local ballgame, like a used car salesman using the
    gimmick of playing the national anthem every time he sells a car to a
    customer? Doesn't this cheapen a sacred *national* symbol, something
    which should be kept in honor and played only during worthy occasions
    such as NATIONAL events. I personally am insulted that the National
    Anthem is dregraded to such a trivial status and cheapened so, even
    though I'm not a blatantly nationalistic type of person. 
    
    Q. Would the impact be any less for you if it were also not-so-well 
    sung at a quilting bee or skateboard competition? 
    
    
    I viewed RB's action as a spoof on how seriously everyone takes
    baseball and on the 'sport' (aka game) itself. To untangle the 
    National Anthem from being associated with the trivialness of 
    baseball, it should NOT be played at a baseball game in the first 
    place.
    
    If RB did this at a war memorial, an international event, a national
    event, Fourth of July celebration, or any other celebration which ties
    into pride for or honoring our country, I would feel differently. 
    
    That was my question, not meaning to twist around your words (unless I
    interpretted them wrongly). It just seemed to me that people were
    equating the environment of a baseball game to that of a major
    important national event. If someone gave a major international 
    diplomatic speech at a baseball game I wouldn't take it as seriously 
    as one from the White House or another serious setting either.
    
    Just my viewpoint, feel free to disagree...
    
    -Erik  
    

    s'more,
    
    And the reason, she stuck her fingers in her ears and screeched the
    anthem is that the PA (?) system was reverberating in her ears...
    
    Roseanne Barr is obviously not popular with many because she's
    not afraid to say what she thinks, she's not afraid to be irreverent,
    she's not afraid to be fat (in fact, she prefers the weight gain 
    according to an interview with Barbara Walters), she simply defies the 
    stereotypical role that most Hollywood women succumb to. Ironically, 
    these same "attributes" are what made her popular in the beginning--the
    fact that she wasn't afraid to be blunt and irreverent.  Now, people
    are turning against her for those same things.
      

    They started singing the anthem at sporting events during WW II to
    boost morale.
    
    It kinda stuck.
    
    Like velcro
    
    or...I'll stop now!
    
    daniel

1) Barr sang the Anthem and acted just the way I'd expect her to sing the
   Anthem and act.

2) Whoever invited her should be taking the heat, not her.  If she was asked
   because she was a personality, whoever did the asking shold have expected
   that personality to show up, not some "reformed" personality.  On the flip
   side, Barr should have assumed that if she was asked because she was a
   personality, she should show that personality and not some "reformed"
   personality.

She shold not have been asked in the first place (IMHO), but the fact she was
is not her fault.

My $0.02.

                         Roak

    In regards to the military and the national anthem. They even play it
    in the movie theaters on base, just before the film starts. You are
    "required" to stand for it. I often wondered why that was considered a
    vital part of base life. liesl

    .87 
    
    I believe that baseball is considered the "national pastime", or "as
    American as apple pie".. the National Anthem signifies that
    "Americanism" (gee, such a word?)
    
    

     When I was younger and went to shows on base(Military brat) We
    always had to stand up for the Anthem at the beginning of the show.
    This was the first music video I had ever seen. Pics of the flags
    waving and beautiful American scenery ,including the four presidents 
    carved in the stone, American Cities(no slums). Its possible that
    this practice still exists. If so I can under stand why the Military
    community is upset.
    
    While in Germany I took my German friend to 
    a show and she was mortified that we took the flag so seriously
    (shades of Hitler as she tried to explain later). I tried to 
    explain that we were showing respect to a symbol of our freedom. 
    She relaxed a little. I told her to pretend its the Olympics and 
    the Americans won first place. I believe that every person who can 
    does stand to show respect for the winning teams flags and Anthem.
    
    I have no problem respecting or showing that respect I feel for 
    our countries symbols. I do feel that they are symbols. I do feel that
    I have better things to do with my time that worry about someone else's
    attempt at humor or disrespect. I don't care to judge whether it was
    one or the other.  I don't perceive that Roseanne is
    a dangerous individual to my or my country's safety. I can't tell her
    or any one what she should believe or not believe or how to feel. 
    I feel that what she did has less significance than the people
    who get elected in our body of government to use our system to 
    increase their power and the bulge of their pockets and those of
    their friends and their families.
    
    I do perceive many government officials as dangerous to my country's
    stability and my personal safety. They work for their own good and 
    the good of those that give them money. The people who have no
    money to give are on the bottom of their list of groups to take
    care of.
    
    Well I said my two cents worth and I did smile when I saw the 
    'Barr-spectical'  on the news.
     
    She has gotten a lot of publicity from it. I think It worked.
    Janet
                                                                           
    
    

    re:.93
    
    I agree with you completely. I respect our country's symbols, too.
    But I have greater respect for the concepts that they symbolize.
    And I feel that the symbols should *never* be held with greater
    esteem than the principles they represent.
    
    --- jerry

     > I believe that baseball is considered the "national pastime", 
    
    How can something that basically appeals to only one sex, (and allows
    only one sex to participate), be considered "national"?  Who considers
    it national anyway?  It strikes me as much a "special interest" kind of 
    thing as quilting or rock climbing.  That was sarcastic, in case you 
    missed it.  I know quite well that it's men who decide what is and what 
    is not "national", worthy or serious and that they simply pick from 
    *their* list only and women, (in the background - always in the back-
    ground), just get to divide into who goes along with the boys and who 
    doesn't.  And for all you nitpickers, I am well aware that there are a 
    few females who genuinely love baseball and a few males who genuinely 
    hate it.  My point is that men decided that since the majority of
    *them* loved it, they would imbue it with all kinds of seriousness and 
    symbolism and declare it "national" regardless of what the half of the 
    nation that is female thinks.  And now some are upset to find out what
    some of the other half of the nation really thinks.  Perhaps they
    should have consulted or at least considered women in the first place 
    before setting themselves up to have their "great national symbol" 
    humiliated by one.  What did they expect?  Total and complete
    acquiesence by all women to all they pronounce as good?  This furor
    makes me think so. 
    
    Kate, sorry I haven't replied sooner but go ahead and do whatever you
    want with that little ditty, with or without my name attached.  In case
    you haven't seen Dice's HBO special on video, I patterned it after his
    nursery rhymes.  That may or may not affect your decision to use it or 
    even like it!  ;-)
    

>Total and complete
>    acquiesence by all women to all they pronounce as good?  This furor
>    makes me think so. 

 I think the "furor" is orthogonal to the game, and would have been equally
or perhaps even more vociferous had the incident occurred at the women's ice
skating championships or any other event that traditionally includes the singing
of the national anthem. Your mileage may vary.

 The Doctah

    Hey, c'mon, Doctah, "orthogonal" isn't in my dictionary, only the Greek
    root "ortho" which seems to mean "correct".  I hate not being able to
    assimilate a new word.  Please define and also include accent marks.
    Or-THOG-o-nal?  Orth-o-GON-al?
    
    And yeah, my mileage varies somewhat.  I think the ones most stung by
    this are men who are generally more heavy into patriotic symbolism than 
    are women.  So even if it took place at a woman's event, I still don't 
    think women would take it as personally as many men seem to.  

It's pronounced "Or-THOG-o-nal", and generally derives from geometry, where it
means "perpendicular to". I was surprised that it's not in my dictionary, 
either. But it does appear in my thesaurus:

213.12 perpendicular, plumb, straight-up-and-down, straight-up, up-and-down;
sheer, steep, precipitous, plunging; right-angled, right-angle, right-angular,
orthogonal, orthodiagonal.

In vernacular terms, it means "having nothing to do with that"; i.e. the 
question of where to hold the meeting is generally orthogonal to the question
of the meeting's subject matter (but not always).

 Paul gave an acceptable definition and the correct pronunciation. 

>    And yeah, my mileage varies somewhat.  I think the ones most stung by
>    this are men who are generally more heavy into patriotic symbolism than 
>    are women.  So even if it took place at a woman's event, I still don't 
>    think women would take it as personally as many men seem to.  

 Probably not, but the people who get upset at the disparagement of patriotic
symbolism would certainly be upset by such an action wherever it occurred.

 I can understand the reactions of veterans who literally risked their lives
for our country's freedom when they see people denouncing the country. I don't
think any of them feel that the country is perfect, but it's still a damn site
better than most any other place. I think that one thing that must be remembered
is that the reactions are almost strictly emotional in nature. There is no
tribunal that sits and thinks of things for men to be offended by. The reactions
are spontaneous and emotional and are related to feelings far more than
a conscious position. When I see someone getting upset by a flag burner or 
someone who butchers the national anthem, I see someone saying "Hey, you're
hurting me! Please stop!" And when that someone is one who put on the fatigues
and went to war, I have to give them respect for their feelings about that.
It's all well and good for us to sit behind terminals and talk about symbolism
etc, but when that symbolism is one of the few things that got our men through
armed conflict, I think we ought to give those symbols some respect, or at
least understand those who do.

 The Doctah

    Mark, While I agree in some part with what you are saying my personal
    experience makes me believe that all too often the symbol becomes the
    reality to many people. They may fight for the symbol but not what it
    stands for. That's the entire heart of the flag burning issue. It also
    seems to lead to the "my country right or wrong", "love it or leave it"
    and whatever other jingoism a ruling elite uses to sell a war to the
    masses.

    Symbols are vital to human beings, it's the basis for speech. They're
    shorthand for complex ideas. But they *can not* replace what they stand
    for and should not be treated as if they were the same thing.

    I admire many members of the armed forces. I've known a lot, starting
    with my mom who was a Navy nurse on a hospital ship in WWII. I was in
    the Air Force for a brief time. The services for all their good points
    do not teach free thinking, they teach conformity and obeying orders.
    This is the same thing the world over, being in the military is in some
    ways like living in a communist country. The symbols and the hierachy
    become the inviolate while the inidvidual's rights disapear.

    I think people should be screaming and booing defense contractors that
    ship faulty or defective equipment. Government officials who use their
    power for the personal financial gain of themselves and their friends.
    These people are tearing apart the fabric of our society and laying
    waste to the *symbols* of trust, honesty, and decency.
    
    I don't care about how Rosanne Barr sings (or doesn't) the national
    anthem. Her act harmed nothing. liesl

    Another technical  meaning of orthogonal is varying independently.
    This  comes  from  the  meaning "perpendicular" through the use of
    orthogonal  axes  to  define  a  co-ordinate system (x-y axes on a
    graph).  The  two  axes  are  orthogonal  (perpendicular), and the
    variables  they  represent  are said to be orthogonal if they vary
    independently.  This gives rise to the meaning "independant".

--David  (college math major)

    RE: some notes back (.97?)

    Baseball is probably considered a national sport by the same folks who
    consider the last game of playoffs between the American League and the
    National League to be the World Series.

    So what if it excludes a few million people?
   
    ********
    
    Me, I kinda like baseball and am NOT offended by Roseann Barr.  There's
    a wealth of jokes about the anthem and baseball (Jos�, can you see?
    last words are play ball, antiphony of "get yer red hots", etc.) so it
    seems as if the anthem was not sacred until someone deliberately
    sang it off key. 
    

    What about playful respect?  Does respect mean that you always have
    to be serious and grim?  As a parent do you get angry if your kids
    make fun of you?
    
    There is a big leap from making fun of the song we have chosen for
    our  national anthem and making fun of baseball -> making fun of 
    our country.  I just don't make that leap.
    	Linda    

    Did ya ever notice how no one short of Robert Merrill or Kiri Te Kanawa
    can *really* sing the Star Spangled Banner?
    Did ya ever notice how no one short of Robert Merrill or Kiri Te Kanawa
    can *really* sing the Star Spangled Banner?
    Did ya ever notice how no one short of Robert Merrill or Kiri Te Kanawa
    can *really* sing the Star Spangled Banner?
    Didya ever notice how no one short of Robert Merrill or Kiri Te Kanawa
    can *really* sing the Star Spangled Banner?
    
    Does anybody else get nauseous when the camera zooms in on a ball 
    player spitting a mouthful of tobacco juice and saliva?  I need to spit
    sometimes, too, but I don't do it in public.
    
    I like baseball, but I don't understand why someone hasn't invented a
    device to allow players to be comfortable and not have to grab their
    crotches all the time.  What can I say?  A bra is probably equally as
    uncomfortable and now that I have to wear one (thank god only
    temporarily) I'm adjusting all the time, too.
    
    Nancy aka Andy Rooney
    

    re -1
    
    Sorry, didn't mean to hammer that one home.

    RE: .108
    
    Heck, the darn thing is based on an English drinking song, and you
    probably have to be either Operatic Material or schnockered to sing it.
    
    [Reminds me of the time that the pianist of my Rainbow Girl assembly
    didn't bring her sheet music to an Installation (public event with
    moms, dads, guests present). She started it in the wrong key (too high,
    dontcha know) and the screeching  was something to behold. As in
    Be Holding Your Ears.]
    
    I mean really, it's meant to be sung while swinging a Pint back and
    forth. Kinda brings it back down to earth a little, eh?
    
    --DE
    

    I remember a few years ago Smokey Robinson sang the anthem in Boston as 
    a ballad.  It was the best rendition I'd ever heard.

    I agree that the crotch grabbing was in bad taste but maybe
    it will stop the ball players from doing the same.....
    Why are men so itchy, is it the cup they have to wear for
    protection?

    YEs it IS the cup, ever wear one?  taint very comfortable.
    
    Although I do think that they do go a tad too far with it, it almost
    seems habitual sometimes.

    NO, I haven't but my sons did playing sports in school and 
    after - semipro.  I don't think they itched as much as
    the players on T.V. do?!?
    Betty
    

    A couple of weeks ago, I happened to catch THE NAKED GUN on
    cable. The denouement takes place during a baseball game, and
    at one point, the pitcher spits. Then one of the other players
    spits. Then another. Then another. Then people in the dugouts.
    Then various of the fans in the bleachers. And so on. It was
    probably amusing when the film was in its initial release, but
    in the aftermath of the Barr-Mangled Banner boondoggle, it was
    hilarious.
    
    --- jerry