Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I saw the special last night, and found it almost unbelievable.  I
    think the piece should have gone on for more than just 1/2 hour. 
    
    How tragic a story of that little girl.  To want to kill her adoptive
    parents, brother, pets.  And to see no wrong in her way of thinking at
    all!  It was truly amazing.
    
    I felt that the show only skimmed on Beth's life, and I felt that a
    program of this depth could/should have been given more than the 1/2
    hour slot.  But like a lot of child abuse cases, they aren't given
    enough time or patience, or thought.
    
    No one (I included) realizes what the mental damage is done to these
    kids.  And what is more devastating is that the courts take these kids
    away from the abusers and when the abusers say I'm sorry the judge puts
    them back into the home!  And so often you read, at least here in
    Chicago, where these children are then killed by the same people who
    abused them.  I don't always feel, an eye for an eye, but in the case
    of these child abusers . . . don't let them go, and prison is too 
    good for them.....cut off their hand, or whatever parts they abused with!
    
    We need to do something about this!  But what?  I have tried writing
    letters, but I guess I don't count much.  I say:
    
                  GIVE THESE CHILDREN A CHANCE!!!!
    
    Poor Beth, to now realize what she has done and thought of in the past,
    that has to be even more devastating than the way she thought before,
    no conscience.  I only hope that she isn't going thru more torment now
    by getting help!
    
    
    My heart goes out to Beth!
    
    Jackie
    
    P.S.  What ever happen to her father?
    

    My Husband and I saw this special last night.  I found it hard to
    understand how a person can not have a conscious.  How could anyone
    kill or want to kill somebody and not have it bother them.  I really
    felt bad for Beth, but I also felt bad for the adoptive parents.  All
    they wanted to do was show her a good life and teach her right and
    wrong and all Beth wanted to do was to kill them.
    
    I will never understand how parents can abuse a child.  There are so
    many people out there that can't have children and would give anything
    to share love with these kids and here are the natural parents abusing
    and killing the children.
           
    I agree these parents should pay.
    
    Bethany

    
    	It has been a while since I've taken any Psych courses, but
    	I don't understand just because she can't love, she has a desire
    	to kill. Most child abuse cases I read about, the child would be
    	introverted and feel inferior, but Beth sticks pins in animals
    	and wants to kill everyone.
    
    	The show was too short, but inspired me to read up on the subject,
    	and give my children some extra love.
    
    	Guy
    

    I represent some of these children in court and, let me tell
    you, most of us have no idea of the reality these children live
    in.  Sexual abuse, in particular, does incredible damage.  None
    of the kids I've worked with have tried to kill anyone, but, a
    number of them are violent.  The violence is usually an expression
    of the rage that they feel towards the parents that have abused them
    but don't feel that it is safe to express directly.  
    
    It seems to be more common for the child to be suicidal and/or self-
    abusive.  By the latter, I mean they cut and/or burn themselves to
    diffuse the emotional pain that they are feeling.
    
    Unfortunately, there is a great deal of pain involved with helping
    these children.  They have to remember and feel the pain that they've
    blocked.  Fortunteley, particularly with treatment starting  as early
    as it is with the little girl on TV, once they're through the pain they
    have a good chance of being happy and healthy and of breaking the
    pattern of abuse.  Studies show that most people who abuse their
    children were abused themselves and, that without help, many, if not
    most, abused children will end up abusing their children.
    children will grow up.  
    is for the 

    in re .2 Bethaney
    
    a conscience is something that we learn from others, it is
    not someting we are born with..babies may be conscious, i.e. aware
    but they are basically selfish. we have to teach them to care and
    to love and to share and to be kind by example..
    
    (I think you may have gotten the two words confused.)
    
    my 15 year old son, was born retarded and legally blind..
    
    when we adopted him at age 7 he thought it was funny to step
    on the dog and make him yip..
    
    since I was afraid that the dog would bite him if he kept it
    up, I stepped on him once after he stepped on the dog..
    
    and he got very upset.
    
    So I pointed out to him that the dog was just as hurt as he
    was.
    
    This didn't stop the behavior, but it  began to diminish it. Today
    he is very considerate of the animals. But at 7, he had no idea
    that animals hurt, no one had every taught him that.
    
    So there was no empathy, only amusement at making the dog react.
    Steven is, by the way, a very kind and loveing child, he'd just
    never been taught that animals hurt too, mostly because he hadn't
    been around them.
    
    I can imagine that in the case of an abused child, who has not
    been taught by example or word that other people are as real as
    she/he is, that they would regard other people as so many 'props'
    to make react.
    
    Bonnie

    There was an article in Parade.(You know the magazine suppliment to the
    Globe and the T+G or whatever) about survivors od childhood abuse. Did
    anyone read it? It was written by a child advocate lawyer. Fascinating.
    
    About a year ago I was taking my boy to the Worcester YWCA for Tiny
    Tots swimming lessons. On the board was a flyer asking for child advo-
    cats to work with these children along with others who have been tied
    up in the legal system. I almost volunteered. Next year I'll have to
    vow to make the time.
    
    I'm glad I didn't see this show. I have a real hard time believing that
    children are treated that way. Really chokes me up.
    
    Kate

    re  .5 
    
    Herb, I haven't found that to be true.  I've found that most of these
    kids -- male and female -- do direct some of their anger at themselves.  
    They feel like they were somehow at fault.  However, turning their anger
    on others does not seem to be more prevalent in the males than the
    females.  I've seen some very violent behavior from some teenage
    girls.
    
    

    Herb, that's an interesting perspective.  I think you've hit upon
    something; even though statistics indicate that more child abuse is
    perpetrated upon female children than male, when you consider that over
    50% of violent inmates have a history of child abuse, and the prison
    population is overwhelmingly male, a glaring fact stands out: where are
    all the violent women?  If abuse as children leads to violent behavior,
    then where are the female felons?
    
    So I follow you this far.  Then I came to a part of your analysis with
    which I can't agree so fully:
    
    > It seems as thought males have a more 'natural' way of expressing this
    > feeling than women do.
    > Women are less inclined to turn that vengeance outward and more apt to 
    > feel "it can't be society's *fault*, therefore it must be my fault"
    
    To me, a better explanation is that society represses females from any
    feeling that they CAN protect and defend themselves.  They aren't less
    inclined to turn vengeance outward unless they're taught to be that
    way, taught to accept.  I also think this explanation has a bearing on
    your following wonderment...
    
    > I wonder how to reconcile this statement with the knowledge that over
    > 90% of all sexual child abusers are men?
    > This is spite of the fact that more females are sexually abused than
    > males.
    
    Society trains women not to take vengeance, nor to self-defend.  And
    for many the lesson enables them to break the cycle, and not abuse
    their kids.  What a grim succor.
    
    DougO

    So:
    
     Abused children (male and female) are more likely to want to abuse
     others. In general in our society, 
      o male children are encouraged to express feelings through anger
      o female children are DIScouraged from expressing feelings through anger
    
     Therefore, males abused as children are more likely to commit violent
     deeds and are more likely to be put in prison; females abused as
     children are either socialized to be nonviolent or are put into mental
     institutions.
    
    That fits pretty much with what I've read, although I would add some
    balance by reiterating that some women DO abuse their children. 
    Remember _Sybil_?  I've also seen some borderline behavior in stores by
    mothers on the edge -- behavior I rarely see in fathers in stores.  Why
    aren't more women arrested and prosecuted for child abuse?  I think the
    court's bias that the mother is the preferred caregiver is a partial
    answer to why.  
    
    There's been a steady increase in teenaged girls' violence.  Why?
    
    Perhaps it's because there's *less* pressure on girls growing up now
    to be quiet and demure than in years past.  So they feel more able to
    express violent feelings directly than in the past, when they had a
    conflict between their violent feelings and their socialization to be
    "good".
    
    Pam

re. DougO & Herb

It seems that both of you have come close to a truth; but yet not seen it.

Yes, an overwhelming percentage of violent abusers are male
Yes, the largest percentage of violently abused are female
Yes, a large percentage of those who abuse were abused as children

As an adult who was bitterly abused as a child by a woman, I can state with 
certainty that not all abuse is physical.  And that the potential to abuse
is not only begotten by physical torture, but by emotional means as well.

Perhaps if women had been traditionally bred to aggressive physical self-
expression there would be just as many women incarcerated for violent crimes.
I cannot say.

It is not illegal to start every morning by telling your child that it is a
blight upon humanity any more than it is illegal to tell the child that its
feet are dirty.  In most jurisdictions it is, however, illegal to batter or
force sex upon a child.

Both behaviours can perpetuate the cycle of abuse.  So an answer to the question
'where are the women abusers?' might easily be 'right in plain sight.'

  Annie

    Ann, you're right, I didn't acknowledge the difference between
    emotional and physical abuse.  And I don't contradict your experience
    with emotional abuse.  I am lead to wonder, though, about the conflicts
    between receiving abuse (all kinds) as some women experience, and the
    teaching/training/indoctrination of that culture that women do not
    challenge men, do not fight back, do not hit people.  I was earlier
    speculating that this indoctrination may permit some women to break the
    cycle of abuse; are you telling me it more likely that it only permits
    them to desist from physical abuse?  That an emotionally victimized
    woman-child will/(might likely) grow up to be emotionally damaging to 
    her children?  
    
    I have speculated at length in mennotes on my perceptions that we are
    an unhealthy society.  Every so often the picture gets bleaker.
    
    DougO

<    Before going too far in this line it is important to keep in perspective
<    that many abused children end up as care givers, and -quite possibly-
<    very good parents.

    That being said the question now becomes ,what is it that makes one
    child grow out of it and another continue in the cycle? Is it internal
    only or can we (society) do something that will make a difference?
    liesl

re.15 DougO

My 'truth,' as it were, is that not all abuse is physical.

Yet abuse very often engenders future abuse.

Simplistically:  A girl who is molested or beaten may grow to become a woman
who would never dream of physically harming a child yet does abuse her children
emotionally/psychically.  Odds are, given how we are socialised, her son could
grow up to physically abuse and her daughter to prey emotionally upon those
weaker than herself ... etc.

Abuse can beget abuse. pick a kind, any kind.  it isn't as simple as:
hitting begets hitting; molesting begets molesting; psychic torture
begets psychic torture.

It's not precisely a case of 'desisting from' physical abuse as it is not 
finding gratification [if that's the proper term] in it in the first place.

An emotionally abused woman _can_ grow up to be emotionally damaging to her
children -- not 'will', but is more likely to do so than one who has not 
suffered abuse or neglect.

And the picture is not _so_ bleak.  Most of the abused [both genders, all types
of abuse] that I have known have indeed broken the cycle.


re.16 Herb

please see directly above.  I have never abused, nor wanted to abuse any child.
The thought quite literally makes me retch.


re.17 liesl

how to break the cycle?  In my growing up, most of it came from within.  The
will to survive, the will to love, saying each and every day, 'not me, not
ever.'  There were some _very_ special grown-up people who loved me and
reflected back to me the miraculous me I saw in my minds eye.

believing children is important.  no, children are not inherently and always
truthful; but they do need to be listened to. there is a natural human
tendency to shy away from the grotesque and unpleasant that leaves abused 
children in a sort of limbo.

Empowerment is important!!!  Saying nice things to children is important.  Never
assume that you don't have to say nice things to a wonderful child because
s/he must certainly hear nice things at home.  S/he probably does, but it
can't hurt and it can mean the difference to a child never does.

Personal empowerment diminishes the ravening need to exert power over others in
order to be 'real' or 'meaningful.'

    liesl and annie,
    
    in studies of children that came from various types of disadvantaged
    backgrounds, be they poverty, abuse, etc.. one thing that stands out
    is that those that managed to grow up and 'beat the system' were ones
    who had at least one adult who provided warmth and nurturance and
    support, sometimes a family member, sometimes a friend.
    
    Therefore, we can make a difference in the life of individual children
    by stepping in and being that 'friend' in a troubled child's life.
    
    Bonnie

    Addressing a number of earlier replies regarding why the child,
    Beth, turned on those who tried to help her, consider this...
    
    When an abused person is so terrified of the abuser that they cannot
    focus their hostility on that person (or people) in case the abuser
    "found out" and the abuse became even worse, it may be easier
    to attack non-threatening individuals who have no part of the abuse
    at all.  The abused is then "getting even" with the abuser indirectly
    with less fear of reprisal.
    
    Think about it...
    
    Barb

    I suspect, (from what I've observed) that many girls who are abused as
    children grow up and choose abusive mates because that behavior is
    "normal" to them.  So, they may not abuse their children themselves
    but, are  unable to protect their children from being abused by the
    mate and /or others.
    
    I have a client who has been abused sexually and physically by a long
    line of family members and friends since she was 3  and possibly
    before then.  To date there has been not indication that her mother
    has abused her.  However, the court investogator's report says that the
    most disturbing thing she sound in her investigation was the family's
    easy acceptance of abuse of one of it's members.  When abuse is a an
    every day thing, I guess it doesn't seem as bad as it might to you or
    me.
    
    This same kid asked me if, my daughter had a boyfriend.  When I said
    "yes, but I don't think they'll be going out much longer" she said,
    very matter of factly, "Oh, has he hit her yet?"  We, of course, then 
    had a discussion about the fact no one has a rgiht to hit you etc.  
    She then stated "When I have a boyfriend the first time he hits me I'm 
    gone.  I've seen enough of that sh*T."  Not "IF" but "WHEN".  Think about 
    the reality this child has lived in and ask yourself, how, if she never 
    knows that there's another reality where people don't hit other people as 
    a matter of course, she can break out of that pattern.
    

    > 	Is child abuse less common among those not in prison?
    
    I've never heard estimates on male child abuse in the general
    population higher than 30%, and that was the high end of an
    extremely broad range.  Several times I have seen estimates of
    10-14%.  I don't have the names, dates, or authors of the studies.
    
    DougO

    
    On the question why some can break the cycle and some can't and the 
    possibility of making a difference in the life of a child:  I'm at 
    a point where I think I recognize abuse in my childhood but am yet 
    reluctant to name it.  I have no children and can't imagine hurting 
    a child, but I can be violent.  That tendency has been expressed 
    just a few times and only once against a person's body; I've most 
    times destroyed possessions.  I can understand, at least for me, 
    that the urge to hurt comes from feelings of helplessness and 
    desperation, feelings of frustration, and finally, rage.  However, 
    there are some very special people in my past, without whom I cannot 
    imagine where I would be now.  (Poorly worded but understandable, I 
    hope.)  They planted in me the idea that I was lovable, and it has 
    grown, albeit slowly.  Some were major players, some played only bit
    parts, but all were important.
    
    CQ

if I might make an addition to your list, Herb:

  2a]  letting go of the need to have others acknowledge that it *was*that*
       bad

this was the hardest for me. 

    
    RE: .27, .28, and .29
    	
    Maybe its me, I add to the list becoming able to forgive the abuser.
    Clearly the most difficult.  I am not saying to absolve them of
    the responsability of what they had done.  It's the step that
    reconciles the fact that they are also ill and they have passed
    their illness on.  
    	
    Hope that was clear.
    a-

 - acknowledge and accept that you may _never_ know why it happened or why it
   was done.  that answer may never come.  and the quest for that answer all
   too frequently homes in on the ultimate UN-truth that the abused is at fault

corrolary: know that just about everyone who knows about the abuse will
ask you 'why?'

personal anecdote:  once after a long night of work and a particularly bizarre
call from Mother I answered 'why?' with a totally truthful, not the least bit
bitter or upset, 'ohhh, I don't think she's quite sane.'  The person I was
speaking with hasn't spoken to me since.  Apparently it is 'better' in the eyes
of many to be eaten up with angst and self-hatred and bitterness than to
acknowledge that one's mother is a bit unhinged.  Go figure.

  Annie

    The following response if from a member of our community who wishes to
    remain anonymous at this time.

    							=maggie

    ======================================================================

    <--(.30)

    I KNOW it is possible to avoid being an abuser yet not forgive the
    abuser(s), so I do not see it as a prerequisite for avoiding abusing.
    Forgiving the abuser is VERY, VERY late in the process. Some authors
    feel it is an optional step.  In any case, in my opinion, true
    forgiveness comes later than the milestones suggested in .27,.28,.29
    above. I don't think it is possible to forgive before coming to grips
    with the stuff above. One of the complications for many survivors is
    not knowing/not being able to say 'what happened'. I feel that until
    this is resolved, forgiving may be an empty gesture.
    
    I also think that this 'forgiving' is quite different from the lay view
    of Christian Forgiveness (e.g. forgive them Lord, for they know not
    what they do), or the Catholic view of confessional forgiveness.

    More of a sense...

    You did it, it was very, very bad, it hurt me irreparably; I will never
    be able to recapture the lost years; let us cry together for the pain
    that was inflicted on you, and the pain that you inflicted on me.  But
    remember, you didn't HAVE to inflict that pain on me, you HAD a choice,
    and I haven't inflicted that pain on other children. (Although, the
    turmoil of THAT pain, HAS resulted in me inflicting other undeserved
    pain on others). 

    (See even this paragraph is a mixed message, forgiveness mixed with
    guilt, and my incest stopped many, many, many  years ago)

    
    re: .32
    Herb,
    You guessed right. I was not talking about future abuse, only past.
    The context was as a victim of abuse, not the abuser.

    RE: .34 Annon.
    I reposted this note as I read yours after writing mine.  Yours
    was posted as I wrote mine. The last paragraph you wrote said it
    all, CHOICE.  Like you I chose not to continue propagating the
    poison of my abusers abuse.
    
    
    --- the origional note as was posted.
    
    In the context of a future abuser...
        
    I limit myself to only my feelings in this case.  The nature of my
    abuse left deep scars. From the my environment I learned inappropriate
    behavours they made me misbehave in such a way as to lash out at times
    and abuse others.  Children learn from example, dysfunctional adults
    raise messed up children that become dysfunctional adults.  Abuse
    sexual, physical, or emotional tends to propagate through generations
    affecting each differently.  To me it's poison that passed through a
    word, touch, or a fist.
    
    I still feel each of us is responsable for what we do.  My abuser
    damaged me, she is responsable for her actions.  My responsability is
    to fix me, not forgive her.  But to be done with this I will eventually
    forgive her.  It's a fine line between being a victim and abuser.
    The seperator is how the victims anger is directed.  If it's directed
    outward you hurt others (intentionally or not), if directed inward you
    remain a victim.  In either case there will be a hole in the
    personality that will likely affect a future generation(if not delt
    with) in some way. 
    
    a-
   

re.33

I know what happened and, then again, I don't really.  I can reconstruct the
events -- what was said and done -- but I am still clueless as to what was
really going on. 

Certainly I forgive, I wish my mother all the best and I sincerely wish her
happiness.  However, my 'other cheek' is a thousand miles away from her and I
intend to keep it there.  I speak to her on the phone, I write long chatty 
letters to enclose with cards at birthdays, anniversaries and Mother's Day,
I always remember her at Christmas; but I rarely get near the woman because
my proximity sets her off more now than ever.

I could not wait for her to acknowledge and heal.  I know that she has not 
forgiven me.  But I had to go on with my own life and that required of _me_
that I forgive.

I can't say as my forgiveness has done much for her.  But considering what it's
done for me I can hardly call it empty.

  Annie