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Conference turris::womannotes-v3

Title:Topics of Interest to Women
Notice:V3 is closed. TURRIS::WOMANNOTES-V5 is open.
Moderator:REGENT::BROOMHEAD
Created:Thu Jan 30 1986
Last Modified:Fri Jun 30 1995
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:1078
Total number of notes:52352

192.0. "Women: Coming out/Being out as a Lesbian" by COGITO::SULLIVAN (Singing for our lives) Mon Jun 11 1990 14:15

    This note is to discuss coming out as a lesbian and the issues 
    associated with coming out.  I think we use the phrase "coming out" 
    in two different ways:  1. I came out in 1980 -- meaning, I accepted 
    or learned of my lesbian identity in 1980.  2. I came out to my parents 
    last year -- meaning, I told my parents about my lesbian identity last year.
    
    We may want to talk about both kinds of "coming out" here, but I was
    thinking mainly of the revealing-your-orientation definition of coming 
    out when I decided to start this note.  I realize that some of the
    women who want to write here might not want to identify themselves, so
    feel free to send me or any of the other comods your reply, and we'll
    gladly post it anonymously for you. Because there may be several 
    anonymous contributors, it might be helpful if  you sign the note with a 
    "pen name" so that we can distinguish one writer from another.  I'm also 
    interested in hearing about the experiences of folks whose friends, 
    family members, coworkers, etc have come out to them.
    
    I think the issue of "coming out," that is, deciding to reveal your 
    orientation to someone else is different from "outing," so let's try to
    keep that the discussion in the string on "outing."
    
    Justine
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192.1LEZAH::BOBBITTthe universe wraps in upon itselfMon Jun 11 1990 15:5328
    The first time someone came out to me, it was a really good friend who
    hadn't dated much during college (despite my best efforts ;).....and
    I'm certain it took him some time and energy to discern what his wants
    and needs were, and to admit them to himself (he came from a very
    straight-laced family).  And then when he chose to come out to me I was
    honored that he trusted and respected me enough to do that.
    
    Several women have chosen to share with me the fact that they're
    lesbian, and I feel I'm kind of one-step-closer to who they are as
    people when they trust me with that.  Some of them revealed it
    casually, as a passing remark in a conversation.  Some revealed it as
    if they were yielding something from deep within themselves, that took
    great thought and energy - there is no "formula" for coming out.
    
    I think the harshest thing someone who is coming out can encounter is
    the shock-reaction they get from homophobes (people who fear
    homosexuality).  I think the biggest risks in coming out might be that
    they're not sure what kind of reaction they'll get - and in addition,
    there's a lot of trust involved if they're just "out" to a few close
    friends, rather than being "out" to the world.  Coming out happens in
    stages, I'd guess - it takes time to be comfortable with people
    knowing.
    
    Of course, all this is conjecture - it's my best shot at empathy....so
    someone please amend my statements if I'm off-base....
    
    -Jody
    
192.2A never-ending processCOGITO::SULLIVANSinging for our livesMon Jun 11 1990 16:2343
    
    When I first came out, i.e., when I first learned of and accepted my
    identity as a lesbian, I felt both terror that some people would
    *find out* and an overwhelming desire to *tell* others.  Some 10
    years later, I now find that I have no such compulsion on either
    end.  I'm not worried about folks' finding out, and there's no
    one I feel compelled to tell.  Mostly, I'm open about my life, and
    when it seems relevant to actually say that I'm a lesbian, I do.
    For example, if someone asks me if I'm married or assumes that my
    "partner" is male.
    
    So that's what's generally true.  But I still have moments when I'm
    slightly or even intensely afraid.  For example, my partner and I
    have a neighbor that we're nearly certain is lesbian, but we still
    haven't come out to her, and she hasn't come out to us.  We all 
    seem to keep dropping hints about it, but no one has come right out 
    and said it.  This is the kind of thing that you laugh about together 
    afterwards, but while you're going through it, it can be quite 
    frightening.  I mean, what if she isn't...  Well, so what if she isn't, 
    so we'll be wrong.  It might even be awkward, but I have to ask myself 
    why so much fear?  
    
    Another example:  I recently took a personal-growth type class at DEC.
    Early on the first day of class, it seemed relevant for me to mention
    my orientation, and I did.  I did it pretty casually, and it didn't
    seem like a very big deal, but then I started to get scared.  No one
    responded.  I was sure I couldn't be the only lesbian in the room, but
    no one else came out, and no one else revealed anything as personal
    about her or himself.  My heart started to pound.  I could feel the
    sweat on my forehead.  It was hard to breath.  I felt like I could still 
    hear my words echoing in the room, and I had an intense desire to retract 
    them, or run away, or yell, or something.  The fear began to subside, and 
    on the second day of class a number of the class participants made a point 
    of telling me that they appreciated my candor, that they thought it was 
    brave, etc, so I feel that my risk paid off, but it was scary.  
    
    So even though I'm "out," each situation in which I have to decide
    when and whether or not to come out offers special challenges.  And 
    I'm often surprised by my own responses.  
    
    Justine
                     
192.3Coming Out - Self Esteem, Self ImageCSC32::DUBOISThe early bird gets wormsMon Jun 11 1990 16:3431
It is so incredibly difficult coming out to people, and yet it is so 
wonderful afterwards, not having to hide yourself, not having to
fear that you are not a valid human being, that you are not "good 
enough" just being yourself, simply because you are gay.

Nearly every time I come out to someone I am fearful.  If it is to a
group of people, like in notes, or like having my name on some Gay/Lesbian/
Bisexual Valuing Differences memo or poster, then I am fearful that I
will get another threatening note on my terminal, or that someone will
attack me on my way to the car after work, or that they will do something
to me at home.  I have lesser fears that a coworker will decide that 
I bring it up too often, or that they didn't know before and won't deal
with it now, and that I will be shunned.

When I have come out to my family, I have feared that not only I would
be shunned, but that my children would be rejected as well.  I am lucky;
that has not happened (although I still have about 3 relative who have
major problems with it, and 2 of them will barely deal with me, because
of my being gay [we discussed it]).

Regardless of my fears, though, regardless of how many times I have been
rejected (sometimes deeply - I have had close friends literally refuse to speak
to me again) I find that it is much better to come out than not to.
I feel better about myself.  I can be myself, talk about my family, 
be and act like a whole human being.  This may not seem like much to 
someone who hasn't experienced it, but it means a great deal to me.
It means that I am defining myself, and shaping my own self-image, not
letting others attempt to do it for me.

         Carol duBois:  Woman, Lesbian, Christian, Mother, Spouse, and more.

192.4never sure how to reactTLE::D_CARROLLThe more you know the better it getsMon Jun 11 1990 17:0338
As far as I know, no one has ever "come out" to me, in the sense of 
confiding some deep, personal information to me.  At least, I didn't think
so until I had read the last couple replies...

I've known lots of men and women who were gay.  Most of them, through
the grapevine (not malicious rumour - the group I hung out with in college
was very cool about such things; they just tended to fill new people in
the group in on old people in the group.)  Sometimes people would let me
know in such casual, matter-of-fact ways that I never considered it
"coming out" - like seeing someone I know casually at a party, and he
introduces the person with him as "This is my boyfriend David", or I would
make some het-assumptive statement, and she would say "No, I'm a Lesbian".
I figured that since it was so casual and seemed so easy for these folks,
that they must already be "out", and therefore they weren't "coming out"
to me.  But maybe those people, inside, were very nervous about telling
me, and were sweating while waiting for my reaction? I hope not, cause I
tended not to react much at all.  In the former case, typically "Glad to
meet you David", or in the latter, "Oh sorry...".

Only once was the "revelation" deep/personal, and then it wasn't so much
a matter of "coming out" as mutual exploration.  She talked to me, because
she didn't understand what was going on in her life and head, and wanted me
to help her sort it out.  Over a period of weeks (while she was in the
process of starting a relationship with a woman) we talked about it a lot,
but there was never a concept of her "revealing" something to me, just her
drawing on me as a resource (mostly to listen) to help her figure it out
for herself.

It is so hard to tell being the recipient of such news what the appropriate
response is - I don't want to seem callous and uncaring if they were trying
to tell me a deep truth about themselves, and had to put a lot of pesronal
energy into working themselves up to it - but my general reaction is "Oh
that's nice" and just file that information away with all the other information
I have on that person and continue with the conversation.  (Unless I am
interested in that person, then knowledge about their preference, of course,
becomes much more important.  :-)

D!
192.5NOATAK::BLAZEKa new moon, a warm sunMon Jun 11 1990 20:2616
>the group in on old people in the group.)  Sometimes people would let me
>know in such casual, matter-of-fact ways that I never considered it
>"coming out" - like seeing someone I know casually at a party, and he
>introduces the person with him as "This is my boyfriend David", or I would
>make some het-assumptive statement, and she would say "No, I'm a Lesbian".

D!, I would consider these statements as coming out.  My feeling is that
any time a gay/lesbian/bisexual tells someone else, whether heterosexual
or not, of their g/l/b-ness, they are "coming out" to that person.  As 
Justine mentioned, initially it's a personal revelation, but it blossoms 
into a never-ending rose ... and each person in a g/l/b's life is given 
one petal at a time.

Carla

192.6different generations, perhaps?WMOIS::B_REINKEtreasures....most of them dreamsMon Jun 11 1990 21:2613
    Carla,
    
    D! is just out of college, last spring I think? Anyway, from
    what I gather from my son who is going into his senior year in
    college, information about sexuality among college students
    is very causal. From what Michael says, one's sexaul orientation
    is 'no big deal'....that, at some colleges in the NE anyway, knowing
    a person's sexual orientation is about a big a deal as who they are
    dating, or if they are vegetarians or whatever. It *appears* from
    what he has said to be a very minor matter. This is how I read
    D!'s note.
    
    Bonnie
192.7CYCLPS::RAINEYMon Jun 11 1990 21:5020
    Bonnie,
    
    I think in that atmosphere (at least at NU), most people were pretty
    casual about their sexual orientation... I had a few part time jobs
    during college, one was work study (the director and office coordinator
    were both homo-sexuals) and I worked at Fanny Farmer's with two gay men
    and one woman.  In each case, I never felt that someone "came out" to
    me, it was all part of the intro-getting to know you kind of stage.
    
    I've never had anybody whom I've known for X amount of years admit
    to being gay....I would think it would almost be as hard for somebody
    who never "suspected" to hear that a close friend is gay as it would be
    for the person to come-out.  How does one distiguish a confused
    reaction to such news (such as "we've been so close, how could I NOT
    have known....) from one that may be considered homo-phobic?  I hope
    this question doesn't seem rude, but I would imagine that it would be
    an adjustment for both parties of friendship/relationship when one
    chooses to come out.
    
    Christine
192.8Coming Out at RPI == taking your life in your handsTLE::D_CARROLLThe more you know the better it getsMon Jun 11 1990 22:1725
>    D! is just out of college, last spring I think? Anyway, from
>    what I gather from my son who is going into his senior year in
>    college, information about sexuality among college students
>    is very causal. 

(Yes last Spring...)

At RPI in general I wouldn't say it was "casual".  As a matter of
fact, homophobia was *rampant* at RPI.  Every single year there was
a big stink over the Union allotting money to the GLBA (Gay, Lesbian
and Bisexual Assoc.)  Gay harassment was the norm.  Last time I was
there, about 1/3 of the school paper was filled with letters to the
editor about an editorial on homosexuality that had appeared the
week before, and most were strongly homophobic.  *sigh*

No, for me, it was just my group in particular, not college kids in
general, who were laid back about it.  My group was (*rough* estimate)
1/4 to 1/3 or more gay, and it was sort of the "non-conformists and
other oppressed people's" safe space.  (Mostly consisted of hackers
and people in the Player's group, if that explains anything.  :-)  Not
a mundane in the bunch!)

That, of course, explains my shock at the "real world".

D!
192.9A billboard would probably workTHEBAY::VASKASMary VaskasTue Jun 12 1990 12:2529
As some other folks above have said, I find coming out to be never ending
and not often the same.  There have been some hard painful reactions,
and some warm wonderful ones, and some casual no-big-deal ones.
Some aren't what they seem (initial ok reaction, but then you never
hear from the person again kind of thing), some change over time
(my mother, eight years after an initial bad reaction, becoming explicitly
supportive (even politically aware and angry, in some cases)).

At this point, I sometimes forget to come out -- I don't think about it,
and then am shocked when someone assumes I'm heterosexual (not the 
S* word, argh! :-)).  And it's not always that easy to bring up in
conversation when you've got these long time habits of not talking
about your private life much until you know/trust a person.
On the other hand, it's much easier to be out from the beginning, so you 
don't risk rejection from someone you know and care about.
I do try some obvious non-verbal advertisements -- a ring with
linked women's symbols, a pink triangle on a briefcase -- but within
the constraints of a field person at customer sites, the professional
look only allows one so much flexibility.

My favorite/easiest  coming out was once when I was out with a group
of (het) friends, and they were talking about their boyfriends, etc., and
one asked me about my situation and I told her about my relationship
with my SO, while being kicked under the table by my closest friend in the
group.  The friend afterwards said "Why did you tell her?  She's the
biggest gossip in the company!"  "Exactly", I said, "she can tell 
everyone for me so I don't have to figure out how to bring it up."

	MKV
192.10My experiences on the receiving end...ASHBY::FOSTERTue Jun 12 1990 13:4854
    At RPI, where men are men, women are scarce and sheep are nervous,
    there is a reasonably large gay/lesbian population. Large enough to
    HAVE what, in my day was called the Lambda Alliance. Large enough, and
    vocal enough to dedicate an entire edition of the school paper to the
    gay experience at RPI, with an artistic centerfold of two men kissing,
    intertwined. Probably had something to do with the fact that the
    editor-in-chief was rumored to be gay... as was the school chaplain.
    (D!, if you missed Father Gary, you missed the best!)
    
    
    When I was in high school, three of our male teachers were gay.
    Sometimes we made jokes about it, but it was just basically accepted.
    Charles was simply the best dressed teacher we had, Jeff cooked superb
    breakfasts for the chemistry class and Gary did terrific Shakespeare
    readings. They were cool... but then, I went to a school with 250 kids
    that was 400 when I left. A different, probably more tolerant
    environment where the number one concern of the parents was whether
    their son or daughter had a shot at the Ivies.
    
    My first two years at RPI, I gave the matter no thought. We straights
    were too busy copulating and studying with each other... But after I
    became Buddhist, I was in a crowd that was used to tolerating
    "different" people, and it became normal to be around women who were
    openly lesbian. I remember when one of them came out to me and, like D!
    it seemed like such a "no-big-deal" thing that I am grateful that she
    reminded me that a lot of other people wouldn't necessarily feel the
    same way. I tended to forget.
    
    The big reminder was when I made a friend at home who wrote down her
    phone number and address on a flyer for a Lesbian bar... my mother saw
    it. And we had a little talk. I had never before known that my mother
    was homophobic. It REALLY surprised me, because I always thought of her
    as super-tolerant. But because of some experiences she had when she was
    younger, she has a "thing" about lesbians. In fact, I think she's
    probably far more accepting of gay men. It was a little tidbit of info
    that I tucked away.
    
    I remember the day that she called me to tell me that a long-time
    professional friend of hers came out to her. She was sooooo confused.
    All of her feelings about lesbians were conflicting with her feelings
    about her friendship with this woman, and the only thing I could think
    of to say is IT SHOULDN'T MATTER.  After a while, it didn't. Someday
    I'll ask how her friendship with the woman is.
    
    I think perhaps one of the things that makes it such a "no-big-deal"
    thing is the number of out lesbians in Womannotes. When we meet
    face-to-face, that piece of information is already filed away, and
    accepted. Its never something to think about much more than race or
    gender. You just work with it from there.
    
    I think it would be FASCINATING to find out how many homophobes are
    read-only's, and how they deal with the strength of the lesbian voices
    in womannotes. But, since its not likely that anyone would admit to
    such in this file, we'll never know if they're getting over it...
192.11It's meFSHQA2::DHURLEYTue Jun 12 1990 14:2614
    Coming out for me is both exciting and scary. It is exciting because
    it breaks down barriers and I can develop some really great
    relationships. I have come out in a UDD course and with a few folks
    in work.  It was a great way to grow. However, its scary because
    there have been times when I have been rejected and have lost
    friendships and a roof over my head.
    
    I am selective in who I trust with my personal life.  I am comfortable
    coming out in this file because I do feel supported.  I think I
    am trying to get to a point in my life where I can be more daring
    as to who I tell.  Or perhaps just not care as to what others think.
    Its tough to do.  
    
    denise
192.12FDCV07::HSCOTTLynn Hanley-ScottThu Jun 14 1990 11:3516
    For me it's been a relief when friends have come out to me - I am not
    comfortable with the guessing or assumptions - I'd rather just have it
    stated and go on with our lives and friendship from there. And, I'd
    rather not put my foot in my mouth by offering to fix someone up when
    they really prefer someone else (of the same sex)!
    
    Another reply's comment about mothers got me thinking about my mother.
    I view her as very old school, traditional and rigid. Yet she's very
    accepting, and curious, about lesbian friends, and seems to take to it
    as a natural thing.  When one of my old friends (male) died of AIDS,
    though, 3 years ago, I saw the other side for her. She has a
    tremendously hard time with the idea of gay men, and reverted right
    back to the rigid religious ideas that she'd been brought up with. It
    was quite a difficult time.
    
    
192.13FORBDN::BLAZEKall the sin that i can takeFri Oct 05 1990 17:0117
    
    National Coming Out Day is 11.October here in the US.  It is 
    a unifying day to take another step in the neverending coming 
    out process, to a colleague, a parent, a friend, a relative,
    a casual acquaintance, or anybody who does not know you are
    lesbian/bisexual/gay.
    
    Teach by example.
    Make a difference.
    We are everywhere.
    And not much can be done from the dark confines of a closet.
    
    To quote a wonderful button, "Come out, come out wherever you 
    are!"
    
    Carla
    
192.14NCOD: Sister of SapphoTLE::D_CARROLLAssume nothingFri Oct 05 1990 17:3712
    In another notesfile, we have been discussing ways of coming out, and a
    few of us women decided that in honor of National Coming Out Day, we
    would set our p_names for that day to "Sister of Sappho".  We also
    decided to tell other people about this, so that if other Lesbian and
    bisexual women want to make a similar statement, they could do the
    same.  This way we can present a sort of "unified front".  :-)
    
    D!
    
    [PS: For those who don't know the history, Sappho was a Lesbian poet
    (in both senses of the word) in the times of ancient Greece.  She lived 
    on the island of Lesbos, which is the root of the word Lesbian.]
192.15FORBDN::BLAZEKall the sin that i can takeFri Oct 05 1990 19:0431
    
    More, from a National Coming Out Day flyer (they should have
    included bisexuals as well):

    National Coming Out Day is a call to action, a campaign about 
    truth, power, and liberation.  It culminates each year on October 
    11, the day designated for each of us, and our organizations, to 
    take our next step in the coming out process.
 
    Most people don't think they know anyone who is gay or lesbian.  
    The price we pay for this invisibility is enormous.  (The delay 
    in the government response to the AIDS crisis is a poignant 
    example of how costly our hiding can be.)  NCOD works with gay 
    and non-gay organizations and media, individuals and community 
    groups, college associations and social groups in addressing the 
    issues associated with coming out.  In a time when we are so 
    often reacting in a defensive manner to agendas determined by 
    others, NCOD is unique by creating a positive, proactive 
    statement by lesbians and gay men everywhere.
 
    When we let people know who we are, they usually respond with 
    acceptance and support, not prejudice.  Future generations of gay 
    and lesbian people count on our courage to tell the truth now and 
    stop giving agreement to bigotry.  Equality will be there for us 
    only when we come out of hiding and stand up for ourselves.  Our 
    open participatioin in society is critical to our safety, our 
    well-being, and our empowerment.  For gay men and lesbians to live 
    in terror of being discovered, or to be shunned by their families 
    is unacceptable.  Everyone should know about National Coming Out
    Day.
 
192.16GNUVAX::QUIRIYNote � la modeSat Oct 06 1990 08:366
    
    And if one is not BGorL, but want to show support, what can one do?
    (On 10/11 or all the other days of the year?)
    
    CQ 
    
192.17What about.....KYOA::HIDALGOWed Oct 10 1990 13:215
    re: -1
    
    		"Friend of Sappho"  ?
    
    Miriam
192.18some NCOD ideas for non B/G/L folksMEIS::TILLSONSugar MagnoliaWed Oct 10 1990 17:0033
RE: .16
    
  >  And if one is not BGorL, but want to show support, what can one do?
  >  (On 10/11 or all the other days of the year?)
    
    Here are a few things I thought of:
    
    
    o Display your support - change your personal name to "I support gay
      rights", wear a PFLAG button, etc.
    
    o Be a phone contact/CO "buddy" to someone who is coming out
    
    o Walk a mile in closeted moccassins!  For the entire day, pretend
      that your spouse/lover/SO is same-sex.  Try to be nongender specific 
      when you refer to hir.  Don't use the words "husband" or "wife" or
      "boyfriend" or "girlfriend".  Try and get a feel for just how much
      *work* it is to have a same-sex relationship and be unable to tell 
      about it!
    
    o Find something to "come out" about.  Everyone has "closets" of
      some kind.  Think of something that you just never reveal and tell
      people about it.  Or, if you *can't* tell people about it, *think*
      about what it would be like to tell each person you meet today about
      it.  And think about what it would be like if, instead of being
      *your* closet, it was a gay/lesbian/bi closet instead - something
      that could get you beaten up, fired, ostracised, etc., if you
      revealed it to the wrong person.
    
    o Hug a gay/lesbian/bisexual!  (I like this one best of all :-)
    

192.19Burning some midnight oilVINO::LANGELOWhen a Kite Catches the WindMon Nov 05 1990 00:1959
    Dealing with my own internalized homophobia has been the hardest part
    of my coming out as a lesbian.  I started to come out to myself about 2
    years ago.  I think I knew I was gay before that but I was in total
    denial and tried to fit into a hetereosexual mold because that was the
    thing to do. I dated a lot of different men and had men lovers but
    there was always something missing.
    
    During my childhood and teenage years I never had a postive image of
    lesbians, gay men or bisexual people at all. They were like dirty rags
    in my mind and I thought of the sexual acts such people committed as
    "disguisting" and "gross". I remember two woman teachers I had in
    Junior high school who were most likely gay. Everybody made fun of them
    behind their backs. I can even remember my mother commenting about how
    "gross" it was for two women to make love to another.
    
    It took me a long time to get over my own internalized homophobia and
    develop a postive image of gay/bi/lesbians. Finding out that I was gay
    didn't happen over night. It's not like I woke up one morning with a
    stamp on my butt that said "U.S. Sexual Orientation--Lesbian". I tried
    to find into the hetereosexual role but it just didn't work. I kept
    developing crushes on women, not men. I would and still do notice
    certain men and think they're attractive but I never felt the emotional
    attachment and bonding that I felt with women. THere's always a certain
    kind of energy and excitment I feel around certain women that I don't
    feel around men.
    
    I'm annoyed by this myth that lesbians walk around drooling over every
    women they see and would take the first opportunity to molest and/or
    persuade other women to be lesbians. This is a silly,silly *myth*!
    The Enquirer had a story earlier this year about lesbians on the
    professional tennis circuit.  They were saying how these *older
    lesbians* were trying to seduce the younger players. Give me a break!
    This myth is build on the idea that all lesbians do or want to do is
    have sex.
    
    I'm almost embarrassed to admit that the way I found the gay community
    was by putting ads in a paper to meet other gay women.  I was too
    afraid to go to any groups or bars. I really felt isolated because I
    didn't know any other openly gay/bi/les folks.  Slowly but surely I
    made my way to the Women's Center in CAmbridge and then from there
    starting going to coming out groups. I've done a lot of coming out over
    the last year and a half and I'm having the time of my life right now!
    For the first time in my life I'm really *alive*!
    
    It can still be somewhat uncomfortable for me to be out to people.
    Especially around strait women. I sometimes keep a distance from strait
    women because I don't want them to think I'm coming on to them. What's
    really confusing is strait women who know you're gay and who flirt with
    you. You don't know if they're just toying with you or if they're not
    really so strait. I know several gay women this has happened to.
    
    For anyone out there reading this who thinks they might be gay or
    bisexual just remember that you're not alone! We are  *everywhere*!
    If anyone would like to know about some coming out groups for gay and
    bisexual women let me know offline and I'll send you some info.
    
    Keep on smilin' through the day...
    
    Laurie
192.20FORBDN::BLAZEKnever saw a woman so aloneMon Nov 05 1990 12:217
    
    alright, Laurie!
    
    you're right, we are everywhere.
    
    Carla
    
192.21just like any other woman...TLE::D_CARROLLHakuna MatataMon Nov 05 1990 12:2911
    >This myth is build on the idea that all lesbians do or want to do is
    >have sex.
    
    What's odd is that on one hand, Lesbians have the rep of being
    insatiable sex maniacs...
    
    and on the other, Lesbians are considered virtually asexual beings.
    
    Like, which is it?
    
    D!
192.22For me anyway...THEBAY::VASKASMary VaskasMon Nov 05 1990 15:395
>    Like, which is it?

Like, it depends on the day... :-)    

	MKV
192.23The devil made me do it....POETIC::LEEDBERGJustice and LicenseMon Nov 05 1990 17:269
	I thought that it also depended on the company....

	_peggy

		(-)
		 |
			Not just for Lesbians ya know....
	
192.24Another Lesbian Coming Out STory :-)VINO::LANGELOWhen a Kite Catches the WindMon Nov 19 1990 23:29118
Printed without permission from "Testimonies: A collection of Lesbian
Coming Out Stories".  Edited by Sarah Holmes.  Published by Alyson
Publications Copyright 1988. 

    Here's one of the many neat stories from this book...
    
L.G.
Goodland, Indiana

Summer Camp
-----------
It was April 10, 1971 and I was living in a small Indiana town where no one 
knew the anquish that had completely overcome me.  Even I didn't know why.  
Why did I have such strong feelings for my fourth grade teacher?  I would go 
to great lengths to cpature her undivided attention.  She was petite, young 
and beautiful.  I can still recall how upset I was the day she married.  
Life goes on for a ten-year-old girl, although it wasn't easy.

I knew something was very different about me.  All of my girlfriends were 
developing an interest in boys, but my only interest in them was as 
companions, to play baseball at the water tower, or fish in the old ice 
pond.  On occassion, I'd even beat them up for calling me names or trying 
to push me around.  tomboys were not very popular in this small Indiana 
town.

Donna was my best friend, and just like me.  Our parents tried so 
desperately to keep us apart, but Donna and I were two of a kind.  No 
Barbie dolls for us, thank you!  If there was trouble to be found, Donna 
and I always managed to find it.  We couldn't even sit through a Girl Scout 
meeting without being separated for misbehaving. We always had to laugh and 
joke around.  We were quite the clowns.

In 1973 we went to Camp Sycamore together.  It's what every Girl Scout 
waited for.  We paid our ten-cent dues every week for a whole year for 
this.  There were four units at our camp.  Each unit had eight tents and 
each wooden-floored tent had four cots.  Naturally, Donna and I were in the 
same tent, along with two other girls -- Tina and Rose.  The first two days 
were fun, when Donna and I weren't being punished for running away from the 
other happy campers, or scaring the sissies in the tent next to ours.  The 
thrid day brought rain.  We all sat in the big, two-story cabin singing 
songs and working on one of the many projects we were required to do.  By 
night, we were all back in our tents telling ghost stories in the storm.  
We were so frightened we decided to pair up in our cots:  Tina and I, Donna 
and Rose.  One thing led to another, and soon we were kissing and exploring 
each others' young bodies.  We fell innocently asleep in each other's arms, 
safe and secure.  To Tina and Rose, it may have been just playing house, 
but to Donna and I it was so much more; it was the start of a whole new way 
of life.  It was a whole new challenge to conquer.

Camp Sycamore, 1973 ended, but the memories were far from gone. Donna and I 
played "house" several times after that, but we knew that we weren't 
lesbians.  Lesbians were the two older girls that lived down the street, 
whom everybody talked about with such disgust.  I took quite an interest in 
these women.  I was very curious about the things that did.  I couldn't 
understand why the mere mention of the word "lesbian" left me astounded and 
eager to learn more.  Donna  and I didn't talk about these possiual 
perversion, most often categorized with rapists and child molesters.  I 
looked forward with relief to outgrowing this silly phase I was going 
though.

In 1974 I was thirteen.  One dreadful day Donna told me that her family was 
moving to Elkhard, about three hours away.  What would I do without her?  I 
needed her.  She had to be the only girl for miles who was as mixed up as I 
was.  I went into a shell.  The fear of high school and the fear of being 
so laone in the small farming community were I grew up were far too much 
for me to handle.  I wanted to run away.  I was certain there there were 
girls in thecity who felt like me.  How could I possibly fit in with the 
other girls at school when I had all the interests of a boy?  The girls 
considered me strange, and I knew I was very different from them.  While 
they were making pretty dresses in home economics and talking about their 
dates with the jocks, I was building dressers in shop class and excellilng 
in basketball.  I tried to be friendly to everyone, but I was not very 
popular and kept to myself.  

I didn't date boys at all. My weekends consisted of shooting baskets and 
baby sitting.  That was how I met Chris.  She was nineteen and I was 
fifteen.  She was married and I would babysit her two little boys.  As my 
feelings for her grew, so did my fantasies.  I would no longer lie to 
myself about my sexuality.  As scared as I was, and as much as I hated the 
word, I realized that I was a lesbian.

Chris was a goddess in my eyes.  She was tall, with long dark hair and very 
prominenet cheekbones.  She was warm, loving and sensitive.  She gave me a 
sense of security unlike I'd ever felt.  Her husband was a salesman, which 
meant he spent many nights on the road.  Chris and I spent hours talking 
about sex;  something I didn't know too much about, but I was more willing 
to learn.  She was very open minded and I felt as ease discussing any topic 
with her.  When the talks led to my sleeping with another woman, Chris 
didn't get that terrified look on her face that I was so used to seeing.  
She seem curious.  I spent many nights with her while her husband was away. 
 It all started out as innocent.  SEveral times, we were awakened by each 
other's soft touch, but managed to fight our feelings and go back to sleep. 
 One hot summer night, I very nervously leaned over and gently kissed her 
lips.  She responded.  I had been so afraid to lose her friendship.  
Instead this beautiful woman wanted to make love to me almost as much as I 
had wanted it to happen.  My heart was beating so fast with excitement that 
I thought I was in heaven.  I had never expereinced feelings like these, 
and never knew it was possible to feel so perfectly content.  Our secret 
affair lasted for over a year.  They say that the first cut is the deepest 
and I found this to be true.  This woman who meant everything to me was in 
love with her husband.  I wanted her so badly.  I couldn't get over her, 
and I didn't feel I could talk to anyone about it.  I couldn't understnad 
why society regarded this most beautiful type of relationship as sick and 
abnormal.

Hurt, I began to date a man.  Dale was a very good-looking man, and really 
sweet.  He was much more gentle than more men I'd come in contact with, and 
we dated for almost a year-but something was missing.  I could not become 
emotionally attached to him, nor did I enjoy sex with him.  I hurt him just 
as much as Chris hurt me.

After high school, I was introcued to the real world.  I met other 
lesbians, and began to feel very natural about my sexuality.  I began 
working in Monon, Indiana and decided that I would never again need to hide 
behind an image of what everone thought I should be.  I was very honest 
with co-workers and invalidated a lot of negative stereotypes that they had 
of lesbians.  To my surprise, they really respected me.
192.25Yah, I know that story!VINO::LANGELOWhen a Kite Catches the WindMon Nov 19 1990 23:4124
    Geez...I can identify with a lot of the things in that story. I
    remember someone who I was in 6th or 7th grade with.  Can't remember
    her name but I'll call her Linda.  We were at my friend S.'s slumber
    party.  It was time to go to sleep and most everyone else had their
    sleeping bags rolled out on the floor.  Linda and I for some reason
    were the late two to get ready for bed.  Most everyone else was tucked
    into their sleeping bags and zzzzed out. We ended up on the sofa
    snuggling up with each other. I remember what a great feeling it was
    being that close to her.  I had no idea at that time that I was gay.
    Don't know what ever happened to her. She moved away a few years after
    that.
    
    Funny how you bump into people.  Over the summer I bumped into someone
    I went to High School with at a lesbian function.  I thought she looked
    kind of familiar when I first spotted her but couldn't place her.  Then
    when I went over to talk to her she said "you look real familiar". 
    Then it came back to us that we graduated from high school together!
    I never had any idea she was gay and she never had any idea I was gay. 
    We had a mutual friend who lived down the street from me when I was
    growing up. Turns out she is bisexual. Geez maybe I'll go to my 10 year
    reunion next year just so I can see what happened to everyone I went to
    high school with.
    
    Laurie