Conference turris::womannotes-v3

>    I for one have reached a point in my life where I value my
>    friendships with women as much as, if not more, than any
>    love affair I may have.  I am finding a comraderie I never
>    felt with a man, an ease and understanding that is just 
>    there.
>    Can anyone relate?

I can.  I place more value on strong female friendship as I
do on the date-of-the-week.  I place as much value on strong female
friendship as on strong male friendship (which a relationship with
a lover must be, for me.)  I place less value on female friendship
than I do on a (hypothetical) marriage.

My best friend is very important to me, and no man short of my
(again, hypothetical husband) would be worth losing her over. Maybe
not even him.

However, my relationship with my best friend is much lower-maintainance
than with my lover.  I don't have to live with her, I don't have sex
with her, I don't share expenses with her, I don't compete with other
friends with her - all these things make a romantic relationship higher
maintainance than a platonic relationship.  So sometimes a relationship
with a lover takes more time and energy.  Also, a budding relationship
takes a lot of time and energy to establish - my relationship with my
best friend is already established.  So it might *appear* on the outside
like I am placing more value on my romantic relationships than my
platonic relationships, since I spend more active time and thought
energy on the former.

So maybe she does take "back burner".  But a dish being on the back burner
just means it takes longer to cook, and requires less activity to make -
it doesn't mean it is any less vital to the meal.

What is amazing about female friendships is just how *much* you can get
out of them with so little maintainance.  That is what makes them so very
valuable.  Given how much work and the relatively little return I get from
my romantic relationships, sometimes I wonder why I don't just stik to
platonic relationships all around!  :-)

D!

I cannot imagine having to make a choice between my main squeeze and a friend. 
	Mez

    We seem to run into difficulty in that all of us define what a *best*
    friend is differently. I have a woman friend with whom I am very close
    and can tell anything. We work in the same building and sometimes don't
    see each other for weeks, even in the halls. Then we get together and
    pour our hearts out. She has often canceled out on me when something
    comes up with her kids or husband. Does that mean I should feel
    insulted? I don't think so, it just means her family has to take
    precedence and I accept that. It doesn't make her any less my friend or
    mean that I'm unimportant, it's just that where I am in her life. If I
    called up and absolutly had to talk, she'd be there. liesl

    I have always stuck by my friends, it anyone has asked me to choose I
    have refused to and just maintained separate relationships.  Difficult
    but worth it.  In return my female friends have "dumped" me at the
    first sign of romance.  This is despite my efforts (NOT demands) to
    keep in touch and show I care.  None of my male friends (lovers and
    platonic) have ever dumped me.  I have just split up with my boyfriend 
    (the most serious one I've had so far) but I still consider him my best 
    friend.  He will be there when I need him, something I always found 
    lacking in female friends.
    In my case I have valued the friendship but they haven't.  I'm afraid
    next time I am required to make a choice my romantic
    relationship/friendship will come first.
    (Of course I don't know 'til it happens!  Maybe I'm what they term a
    "giver").
    
    		Holly
                                   

    re:.0
    
    Why assume that the "love" relationship involves a man?  Would
    you feel as upset if the lover were another woman?
    
    Why assume that the "normal friendship" is with a woman? Many people
    have members of the opposite sex as "close friends". I, for one.
    Most of my closest friends are and have been women.
    
    --- jerry

    I have only ever had to make this choice once, and my friend came
    first.
    A close friendship is one of the most precious things you can find
    in life, and I think it is far too important to let a third person
    come in and try to break that bond.
    
    Fran.
    

I love my friends. yes, I do. and no, it's not 'different'

and while they're generally different in flavour, I don't really
differentiate between male and female friends.  I do not, have not and will
not give up my friends for Rick [not that he's ever asked]

the nature of my relationship with him tends to favour him being the beneficiary
of my time and energies in times of need should conflicts arise; but fortunately
these conflicts are rare.

my nature and nurture also predisposes me to shy away from anything that might
resemble a 'best' friendship.  perhaps this is why I have no frame of reference
for what a 'normal' friendship might be. [quite seriously, I don't think any of 
my friendships could be classified as abnormal.]

the 'person most important in my life' tends to vary with time and circumstance

it makes me uncomfortable to still see talk of group behaviours, such as
'dumping,' and judgements being made. Naive as I sometimes can be, I had hoped
that we had progressed to a point of accepting that we all have our own 
priorities. it's simple enough after that -- if you find someone's priorities
conflicting too severely with your needs, you will probably either not become
friends or not remain friends.

  Ann

When I met Mike, I didn't desert my friends. My sister, with whom  I
    had been very close, and my closest girlfriend, however, both found Mike an
    extremely convenient excuse to blow me off....
    
    Sister : Oh, I went to a great show the other day. You would've
    		loved it. I didn't call though, cause I figured you'd
    		be out with Mike.
    
    Girlfriend : Can you go out tonight ? (she calls at 6:00pm)
    Me : Uh, no, Mike's here and we're going out.
    Girl friend : You *NEVER* have time for me anymore !
    
    Now that Mike and I are married, I don't even make the effort anymore.
    I don't have any really close women friends, basicly for the fear
    of being blown off again.
    
    Dee 

re: .7 Ann
    
> it makes me uncomfortable to still see talk of group behaviours, such as
> 'dumping,' and judgements being made. Naive as I sometimes can be, I had hoped
> that we had progressed to a point of accepting that we all have our own 
> priorities.  it's simple enough after that -- if you find someone's priorities
> conflicting too severely with your needs, you will probably either not become
> friends or not remain friends.
>              
>   Ann
    
    I was the one who used the term "dumping".  It was not a group
    behaviour but one which I personally saw exhibited by 2 people I called
    my best friends.  You talk about "judgements being made".  I think you
    are the one judging my situation.   I accept others have their own
    priorities and lives to lead but what happened to me was that I was
    totally cut-out of their lives (because their new romances didn't like
    me) and even after indicating that I was there if needed I was told in
    no uncertain terms they no longer wished to see me.  This was done
    without any warning and I call it dumping.
    
    I make a good friend, I just don't seem to receive the same in return.
    I also don't agree with you that friendship is simple.  Like any other
    relationship/interaction with humans it can't be simple.  It's easy to
    say "if you find someone's priorities conflicting too severely with your 
    needs, you will probably either not become friends or not remain
    friends." but a lot harder to do if you really *care* and want to work
    it out.
              
    		Holly
          

re.9 Holly

I was not judging your situation, the fact that I lifted 'dumping' 
notwithstanding.  I was not being specific at all.  I reacting to a recurring
theme through all =wn= volumes. I was reacting more to "Do we value our female
friendships enough?" than to specific cases.

I'm sure most people have felt the wrench of losing someone/something special
over time.  I know that I have.  When it happens suddenly it can thrown one for
a loop.

Friends come and go, no matter how much one cares. Distance, children, new
friends, new relationships can intervene and we are all growing and evolving 
after all.

I do *care*, as you put it, about my friends and I have put an awful lot of 
effort into them.  Sometimes things can't be worked out.

  Ann

    My friends are part of who I am; one of many facets.  If someone tried
    to deny me my friends, then they would be taking away part of me.
    
    Would someone want only part of a person?  Not me, thank you.
    
    Judi
    

    Re .0, thank you for starting this note.
    
    I found that I behaved this way in high school.  It seemed that if I
    wasnt there for my boyfriend (cancel with girlfriends) that I would
    loose him.  It didnt change either for a very long time.  Now that I am
    in a stable relationship I find that I no longer cancel.
    Im sure this has to do with my own self-esteem/worth.
    
    Question: I do not want my daughter to behave this way.  Since my own
    self esteem isnt the greatest,  any ideas on how to teach her about
    this type of behavior??  I know that I am a role model, will my
    actions be enough??
    
    Judy

>    Question: I do not want my daughter to behave this way.  Since my own
>    self esteem isnt the greatest,  any ideas on how to teach her about
>    this type of behavior??  

You can't.  She will either learn it the hard way or not learn it at all.
You can't *make* her choose her priorities in the way you know will be right -
he ability to priorize in a way that is right for us comes with time and
experience and mistakes.  My mother could have told me a million types to
always put my friend first.  But what it really took was getting burned
a couple of times and that lesson was firmly implanted in my mind.

D!

    RE: .12 Judy,
    
    I think you answered you're own question: >>Im sure this has to do with
    my own self-esteem/worth<<.  If you can help create an atmosphere that
    supports and builds up your daughter, her self-esteem will be such that
    she'll feel she can share her affections with friends and her
    significant other.
    
    When I was in high school, I was serious, and insecure.  I too behaved
    this way as in high school.  On the other hand, my brother and sister, 
    who are twins, were very popular, outgoing and self confident.  Their 
    friends always came first, and if someone wanted to date them, that 
    person had to buy into this arrangement. At 33 years old, they still have 
    friends from high school (and a few from elementary school!)  I'm not
    saying that's always the way it is (was?), but it was prevalent as I was
    growing up.
    
    As an adult, I value and cultivate my friendships.  I think when one
    starts a relationship, there's an initial period when you're pretty
    wrapped up in each other.  Fortunately most of my friends recognize
    this (as I did) when it happens.  Also, I was forunate enough to be
    with people who didn't feel threatened by my relationships with my
    friends.  I don't believe one person can be everything for you, so
    friendships are mighty important!
    
    Linda

         For a long time I never had any close female friendships.
         The problem dates back to probably third grade where I was a
         very shy, quiet loner.  I found a wonderful friend in a
         little girl in my class.  We did anything and everything
         together.  She was my "best friend."  Then she had to move to
         Germany and said she would write.  I missed her terribly and
         I would check the mailbox everyday when I got home in hopes
         that a letter would be there. It never came and I cried and
         cried for weeks. 

         And I remembered it for years to come. 

         I never had another close female friend until my senior year
         of high school on into college where I hung around with a
         girl that was in my same major, she was from my high school
         and we had a lot in common.  But frequently she went thru the
         "I've got a boyfriend now" syndrome and I wouldn't see her at
         all, unless she needed help on a problem set, or a take home
         test, or when they broke up. Sometimes I felt used.... 

         Then I met Carla a few years later who I wanted to open up
         and be close with.  She was definitely someone special and
         someone that didn't mind me "being myself".  Someone I didn't
         feel I was always pressured to compete with (many women in my
         life have always tried to compete at everything:  who was the
         prettiest, who could get the guy, who could....I abhore
         that.)  But there was always a part of me that just wouldn't
         let myself open up.  I tried to give as much as I could to
         the friendship and tho we're on opposite sides of the country
         now, she's still one of my best buddies.  Call it my
         indoctrination into the arena of "female friendships"
         again.... 

         Now that I'm here in NewEngland, for the first time in my
         life I have female companionship.  I'm slowing beginning to
         build friendships with females.  And I still run and hide
         sometimes when I feel like I'm getting too close.  There
         is more than one female friend in my life right now and I am
         beginning to cherish all of them, but I still feel the
         guarded feelings inside, like I just can't let go and accept
         that closeness of another female. 

	 
         So, do I value my female friendships??  In a guarded way,
         yes, I do.  I would never drop my female friends if I had a
         lover in my life.  I would also never drop my male friends if
         a lover entered my life.   I value them....but at the same
	 time I am very leery of them.  I can't seem to rid myself of
	 the apprehension....and sometimes, unfortunately, that
	 perpetuates itself into discomfort in that friendship.

	 kath
	 

Interesting topic.  I have a group of friends (all women) that 
I have been close with since our freshman year in high school- i.e. 
in June it will be 11 years we've known each other.  Although during our
younger years- many of us would become invisible when a new beau
came along, we have all grown together.  Three out of the six of
us are married, and we have all been in each other's weddings
(we have a tradition at each wedding to play Elton John's song
"Friends").  

We all may see each other less, but whenever we get together it's like 
we haven't been away at all. Recently there has been more tragic get-togethers,
than happy ones (one of my friend's mother committed suicide, and two of us 
lost one of our grandparents), but even though we are all going our own 
separate ways - we will always be close. 

So in a sense, we have found that delicate balance between friendship and
marriage (or for some of us, dating).

Terri

    How interesting to think about.
    
    Ya know, I don't *have* any close female friends.  I have female
    co-workers, and acquaintances.  I DO have a couple of male friends
    whom I've shared a lot about myself, and whom I'd trust with my
    life.  But since elementary school, I don't really have any best
    female friends, nor am I sure I want one.
    
    It sounds terrible, but you know why?
    
    I don't trust 'em.  Like Kath mentioned, they drop you when they
    obtain a lover and pop up only when they are unattached (someone
    said friends do this to people when they get married--suddenly you're
    presumed to be too busy, making love, etc. to do any FUN stuff.
    A rather reverse from what I've experienced).
    
    I have had friends move away from me, and suddenly the letters promised
    stop (even when I diligently kept up my end).  The "best" part of
    friend deteroriates to "oh, someone I once knew."
    
    I guess I've had more degenerating friendships with women than men.
    Ironic, because being a shy, withdrawn and very insecure with myself
    person, I always figured guys wouldn't be my friend unless I looked
    fabulous--I don't--or had sex with them--I don't.  I never really
    met any guys till I was 23 or so.  Oh, I met them, but I didn't
    know what to do about them.  And so I had a few women friends, who
    were out busy getting themselves attached, when I was unattached
    and suddenly uninvited.  
    
    Now, I have one or two close male friends, and zero female friends.
    And of course, there's Eric, my SO (as my interviewers always call
    him--boyfriend is okie by me).  He's my best friend because he puts
    up with me.  :)   But Eric has lived out here for all his life--he
    has plenty of other friends, male and female, while I'm still shying
    way from finding any, because I *know* they'll go away.  
    
    Sad, but true.  Doesn't mean I wish I didn't have any--I'd like
    to have a trusted female friend because of the idenity factor. 
    
    Guess I just don't trust any friendships.  :/
    
    ----kim

    I'm not convinced that the male equivalent of dropping friendships for
    a new romance isn't equally valid.
    
    My son has his first serious girlfriend.  (Mom is having quiet chuckles
    to outright laughter at the parallels with her own relationships. 'Tis
    truly bizarre.)  I continue to field phone calls from his friends and
    buddies at the same rate as before - but he no longer does much with
    them, returns calls less promptly, and all the other things we women
    complain that *our female* friends do when they get involved in a new
    relationship.
    
    Makes sense - both sides have to give up time with others to invest in
    the new relationship if the 'time available factor' is going to
    visibly decrease to the same-sex friends.
    
    Alison

    Hi, although I read this conference regularly, I hardly ever reply, so
    this must have struck a cord with me.
    
    I have a group of friends, 12 of us all together.  We have known each
    other as a group for about 10 years, although some of the individuals
    have know each other longer.  Two of them are my "best" friends and we
    have grown up together (total of 25 years).  
    
    When we were all about 18 we used to go out every weekend, holiday
    together and it was great.  Over the last 6 years we have all settled
    down some with one partner, some with several.   A majority of us are
    now married, one with 2 children, 2 more expecting in Sept/Oct but we
    still manage to have at least 1 Friday Night Out a month, whether this
    be for a drink or round someones house.  There have been times where
    due to money, commitments or other reasons, that some of us have not
    been able to make it, but that doesn't matter, we all understand that
    our priorities have now changed and that although we value our
    friendship, we would not like to put our own individual relationships
    at risk.
    
    One of my best friend is just going through a divorce, and is taking it 
    quite badly, for 5 months she cut herself off from the rest of the group 
    of friends and just spoke to me and our other close friend, during that
    time the rest always asked about her, and she was kept up to date with
    what was going on by talking to me.  She is now feeling much better and
    getting out and about more now, but she still realises that although I
    would do anything for her (within reason), my first priority is my
    husband, my this I mean I will go out with her, for a drink, or to a
    club, but I would not go on a three week holiday or see her every night
    of the week, and leave my hubbie on his own.  Nor would I expect her
    to do the same.
    
    I suppose what I am trying to say is, to have special friendships you
    need to work at them, like any relationship.  Just because you don't
    see each other every day of the week, doesn't mean that you want to end
    the friendships.  Real friends are hard to find, but I feel that I am
    really lucky with my friends, on hen-nights and birthdays we all get to
    gether and have a good time, and I wouldn't swap them for the world.
    
    Sorry to ramble on so much, but I just had to get this off my chest.
    
    Tanya