Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    I am no expert, but I can see a little jealousy in your writing.  I
    think you liked to have Debbie be with you and finance'.  Now that she
    has a new life, new man, new friends, I think you might be jealous. 
    You had her at your beck and call so to speak, you had your cake
    (finance) and you ate it too (Debbie).  Everyone has to grow, maybe
    this is Debbie's way of growing, we can't control other people.  When
    this happened to me, I finally had to sit down and really question myself
    as to what was "really" going one.  You can't expect her to put you
    first anymore, now you both have someone new.  Think about it, she is
    still your best friend, you may not see her very often, but friendship
    doesn't die because she has found someone else, real friendships remain
    forever, but they do change, they have to in order to survive.  Trying
    not telling her what to do.
    
    Enjoy what times you have together.  Don't force your opinion on her. 
    I know you feel the loss and it hurts, but it will hurt more if you
    lose her friendship altogether.  Isn't there a saying, if you love
    someone set them free?  Try it.  I think you will see that the more
    things change, the more they really don't.  And if they do, it was
    mean't to be.
    
    Jackie :-)
    

When I don't get what I need out of a relationship with a particular person
(and it looks unlikely that I will), I try to find another relationship to
augment my life (get what I need). 
	Mez

I say, give it time.

My best friend and I have been through everything together...sometimes we
are very close, other times we drift apart.  But eventually, we always end
up close again, and that is the nature of close friendship.

Often at the beginning of relationships, people get *so* wrapped up in
their new-found loves that they have very little time or energy for anyone
or anything else.  But that infatuation stage always wear off;  I predict
that within another six months, Debbie will realize that she longs for 
her *own* friends and life, again, and that while her new boyfriend and his
friends are wonderful, she has a seperate identity she needs to maintain.
That is sometimes very hard to realize when someone new in your life seems
like the absolute end-all of everything.

Maybe your friend senses some hostility from you towards her new boyfriend
for him taking her away from you?  Maybe that is why she doesn't ask you to
do things with the two of *them* (as you and Geoff do.)  You say the three
of you (Geoff, Debbie and yourself) used to do things often - when Debbie's
new SO came into the picture, were you sure to include *him* in your plans?
Did you ever go out with the two of them?  Maybe Debbie feels that you aren't
making any effort to be a part of *her* new life, that you want to keep things
the same as they always were, and not let her grow.

I know that "give it time" doesn't help with the fact that you are getting
married soon, and you want Debbie to share that. But I am sure Debbie is happy
and excited for you - but she also has her own life, and even best-friends
have to have their own life.

Good luck, and congratulations on your upcoming marriage.

D!

    Fran:
    
    Don't despair, she'll get over it ... in a couple months.  You and
    Geoff have been together a long time, remember what it was like when
    you first met?  You probably wanted to spend every waking moment with
    him and he was first priority in your life.
    
    I've had a lot of freedom in my relationship with Sean, Dona
    and I were always out and carousing but now Dona has a new beau and we
    no longer spend as much time together.  Sometimes it bugs me, but
    mostly, I'm ecstatic for her, that the man she loves wants to be with
    her as much as she wants to be with him!
    
    Also, I've been on the "receiving end", like Debbie, I'm usually by
    myself a lot on the weekends because Sean's working or traveling.  So
    I'm the "third wheel", and it can be strange, having the only "single"
    girl around lots of married, engaged, living-together couples. 
    Sometimes at dinner parties when I'm the only "single" one there with
    no partner, it really *gets to me*, empahsizes not only my complete
    freedom, but the lonliness.  Maybe after all this time of being the
    "third person" in a triangle, she's relishing her new-found
    relationship.  You value things more after being alone for a bit!
    
    Give her some time ... you always have Geoff to "fall back on", but
    Debbie needs *her* special someone too!
    
    Tammi (PS:  hope the wedding plans are going good - is Phil still
    invited now that he's far away?!)
    

    
    Fran :
    
    I have a different sort of advice.  I was married 6 weeks ago and I too
    had a woman in my wedding party who withdrew from me in the year of my
    engagement.  She had been my best friend through 4 yearsof college.  I
    tried to talk to her but she wouldn't talk back.  I guess I hit a
    breaking point when she said she wouldn't be in my wedding and then I
    mourned to loss of the friendship.  (She was in the wedding anyways.) 
    The good thing that came out of that was that, on my wedding day, I
    wasn't tense around her or angry.  I just didn't have the emotion that
    I used to have.  What you DONT need is to spend your wedding day
    concerned about your relationship with her.  You should barely think of
    her.  If you need to emotionally let the friendship go, then I would
    try to do that.  If you stay upset about her and it ruins your wedding
    day, your friendship may suffer permanently.  If you let go of the
    relationship, it might come back.
    
    Another word or advice : keep your new life with your new husband in
    mind at all times.  My flowers were totally wrong and for some stupid
    reason, I let that take over my thoughts.  HAVE FUN!!!
    
    good luck!
    Rachael
    

    
    Hi Fran,
    
    I'm sorry to hear that you're going through this kind of thing, isn't
    it amazing how many things can distract you when you're trying to plan
    a wedding?  
    
    I don't at all believe that you're jealous, at least not based on what
    you've written.  It sounds like you're hurt, and that requires speaking
    to Debbie, and tell her how you feel.  She may not know what she's doing 
    and how it makes you and Geoff feel, or she may know and not care (you
    have to be prepared for that).  Regardless of how she responds, you
    need to decide, will you be her friend unconditionally or not?  If so,
    that means accepting the current situation as it stands. and accepting
    her if her current situation fails and she comes running back for
    support.  Remember this:  IF YOU DECIDE TO BE HER FRIEND
    UNCONDITIONALLY, SHE OWES YOU NOTHING... it's your decision and you 
    alone must take responsibility for your decision.  Now the same is true
    in reverse, you owe her nothing, but not because she's treated you
    badly, just because you are two individuals who freely decided to be
    friends.  Friends don't owe friends, friends don't guilt friends out
    about "owing" them.
    
    Before you speak to her, I would suggest you think about the following
    things:
    
    1.  What she has done that hurt you
    2.  How they make you feel
    3.  The consequences of these things
    4.  How you would like her to act in the future
    
    When you speak with her, you will want to let her know these things.  
    It's the only way to A) let her know in the kindest way what she's 
    done, and B) let her know your expectations.  Everyone has expectations
    in every relationship.  
    
    I've struggled alot in these kind of situations with people, and I've
    walked alot of brides (I do bridal consulting) through alot of this...
    emotions and relationships can get pretty strung out before the
    wedding.  If you'd like to take this up in mail, feel free!
    
    Good Luck,
    
    dm
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    
    

    dm:
    
    If you make a list of questions or things you want to talk TO her
    about, it won't work.  Why not just let things alone for now.  You get
    what you give....maybe she has really given off some bad vibes to her
    friend and those have been received by her friend.
    
    Don't go in with a list.  I don't think you have a right to demand
    anything from friendship.....I don't think you should demand from anyone.
    The reason we have friendship is that someone cares about you and you
    care about someone. Just talk.  If it doesn't work now, it will in time!
    
    And if it doesn't, let it go.....
    
    
    Jackie   :-)
                        

I don't know Jackie; I'm perfectly comfortable going in with a list on the most
important friendship I have; with my hubby.
	Mez

    re .7
    
    Hi Jackie,
    
    Resolution is never easy, especially in emotional issues.  Trying to
    sit back and decide what it is you really feel, want and expect from
    a hurting relationship is one key to finding resolution.  NOW, just 
    because you know what you want, that doesn't mean you're going to get it!
    If I implied that, I apologize, but that's not at all what I meant!
    
    I also don't suggest walking into a situation with a list of demands...
    but having things straight in your mind, does not necessarily mean that
    you're going to present a person with a bulleted list of expectations.
    
    I'm sure Fran can speak for herself at this point, I read her note to 
    say that she WANTS to work this thing out, hopefully in the near
    future.  In order to do that, she's going to have to figure out what
    she really wants, and what Debbie really is willing to give.
    
    RE: 8
    
    Right on Mez... 
    
    
    dm 
    
    
    

    If I went in with a list to my husband, he'd walk.  It wouldn't be that
    I was threatening, but the LIST would be.  I know communication is
    really necessary, but I still think a list is offensive.  Even if it
    was just notes of things to talk about, I think a lot of friends would 
    balk at the sight of it.  My husband is one of my best friends, and I
    am glad.  But as to another female best friend, I think the situation
    is entirely different.  My other best friend lives 300 miles away, and
    we have had some good times and some bad times.  It doesn't mean we
    aren't best friends.
    
    I still think the relationship has to grow and it is hard to let that
    happen when it seems to be just "perfect".  Things change...people
    change and if we don't let that happen, the friendship will never
    mature or grow.
    
    I think a good example is the movie Beaches.  What a friendship that
    was: love, hate, jealousy, miles, circumstances, background. . . changes 
    all the time, but in the end they were still best friends.....no one 
    came with a list,  but the relationship survived.
    
    I always have said that when I die I hope that during my life I could
    have just one "best friend".  To me that isn't always your hubby, my
    female best friend and I have been through some rough times, but we're
    still together, my first best friend (hubby #1) left when the times
    were rough......I'll take my female best friend any day, whether she is
    having a good day or bad one!  Whether she agrees with me or not,
    whether she does what I think is the best thing or not!
    
    (I am sorry this got so windy, but I have a special place in my heart
    for my best friend (female) and I would hate to see someone loose theirs 
    because of a list).  Of course you can't make or force anyone into the
    best friend category if they don't want to be....and in that case, they
    were never there to start with!
    
    
    Jackie   :-)
    
    
    

    Just a little something,  my best friend (female) and I have been
    friends for 29 years......a lot longer than both my marriages combined! 
    Our friendship has gone through a lot of changes in 29 years!....so you
    see, you have a long time to go, Fran.....be patient!
    
    Jackie
    "j" (This is my ususal signage)
    
    :-)
                                         

    
    
    RE:  10
    
    "j" 
    
    Please go back and re-read what I wrote, I did not necessarily
    suggest that anyone go to a friend with a list (although, if 
    someone felt comfortable with that, I would not discourage it). 
    What I said (at least twice, and will repeat for a third time) 
    is that the HEART is the important thing.  The basenoter must 
    resolve in her heart what she wants/needs/expects from her friend 
    and then she can identify whether her friend wants/needs/expects 
    similar things.  THEN she can go to that person and try and resolve 
    things.  
    
    Really, it's taking time to cool off, figure out what's really 
    going on and then working on resolving the relationship, if that's
    what a person still wants after looking at things.
    
    re:  12
    
    Hi Mike!
    
    I know what you mean about lapses in friendship, they are natural
    and no one should get hurt.  The basenoter is talking about a situation
    that is hurtful to her and her fiance, and that carries alot of 
    weight right now because of her upcoming wedding, and the role her
    friend has been invited to take in that wedding.
    
    It's not a natural circumstance, and it doesn't have six months or
    a year to close the lapse... given that the basenoter seems to want
    to work things out before the wedding, I don't see much room for
    waiting until they "bump" into one another.  Nobody wants to go into
    her wedding believing that her Maid of Honor (or fiance, or family, or
    consultant, or, or) is being insensitive or unkind.  These kind of
    emotions can really rob a wedding party of it's joy.  I don't believe it
    has to, but in alot of cases it does.
    
    dm
    
    
    
    

    A good friendship is never binding or forced... if she has a person to
    love that, naturally, means more to her than a normal friendship! be
    realistic, you have your boyfriend, let life take its course, if she is
    happier with her man, let her be, you did nothing to separate her from
    you, so don't worry about her, she'll come around and if she doesn't...
    good, the friendship was not as good as you thought.  You are in love,
    so you MUST know how she feels, right? Be glad that she has the
    happiness that you and your boyfriend had much longer than she had
    hers.  Wish her well.  That is the best advice I can give you. And be
    happy. 

Here's what I would do.

Make sure I made my needs known and showed an openess to explore
any problems together.

"I miss spending time with you.  Have I done anything to upset you?
What are yor feelings around spending time with me? "

I have then made know that I want to spend time with that person and
given them a chance to discuss any problems that are getting in the
way of the friendship (which may or may not be the case).

If they don't respond or say nothing is wrong, then I have done all I
can to state my needs and say that I appreciate the person.  It is up
to the other person then to respond or not.  That is outside of my
control so I don't worry about although I may feel sad or miss the
person's company.

If they say they have changed or have other interests, then they'll
come back if they want.  Again, its not something I can control so I
would try not to worry about it.  I may be angry that they have
changed and aren't meeting my needs but that doesn't change things much.

If there is some problem and we work it out, we all win and can regain
the closeness we lost.

I hope you can work it out with your friends and get your needs met.
peace,
john

    Thank you for all your responses so far. I think there are a few
    things I should make clear.
    
    I am not jealous in anyway of John (Debbie's boyfriend) and on the
    few occasions I have met him, I have got on with him Ok.
    But, it seems that he has his own circle of friends and doesn't
    really want to let any more in. In the past Geoff and I have always
    got on really well Debbie's boyfriends and we have done a lot of
    things together in a foursome.
    We really want to get to know John, and do things together,and we
    have tried. Many times we have invited them round, asked them to
    come out with us etc...But they always turn us down or let us down,
    whether this is Debbie or john's decision I am unsure - but knowing
    Debbie as I do, I suspect it may be John.
    
    I am really happy for Debbie, and I respect and understand the fact
    that she wants to be with him, but surely that shouldn't stop her
    just phoning me once in a while.
    
    
    Basically I am just hurt that she know longer communicates with
    me, and it seems that she has forgotten me.
    I do want to sit down with her and tell how I feel, and I have tried
    to arrange to see her, but each time she has an excuse not to see
    me.                                                              
    I just don't want our friendship to die, we have been through a
    lot together over the years, and I have always known that she was
    there for me - now I'm not so sure, and that hurts.
    
    I have got to get together with her some time over the next week
    to sort out some bridesmaid bits, so I hope to try and talk to her
    then.
    
    Fran.
    

    Fran, good luck talking with her and working it out.  I also went
    through this kind of situation with someone (who used to be a best
    friend) a year or so ago -- we just didn't connect the way we used to
    and it hurt.  It's too bad the change in your friendship is happening
    so close to your wedding, but these things have their own timing,
    unfortunately...  
    
    I think having her know how you feel about her lack of contact will
    help clear the air, even if it doesn't solve the problem.  Good luck!
    
    Pam

    ...Give yourselves some time.  I've been through marriages, divorce,
    children, multiple moves across the country, "ins", "outs", you-name-it
    with my best friend...and we're still best friends after (yipe!) 20
    years.  The fact that we live 400 miles apart and talk only a couple of 
    times a year has nothing to do with our friendship.  We know each other
    better than husbands, parents, children and anyone else in the world...
    nothing can change that.
    
    -Lynn T.