Conference turris::womannotes-v3

We'd be back to codpieces.
	Mez

    Somewhere this came up in V2 in relation to movies.  Most of us agreed
    that the camera did not need to be 3 inches from the 'scene' as in most
    movies of that type.
    I feel that movies would be less violent.  They would deal with human
    interrelationships more than 'conquering' a female.  Im going to have
    to think more about this!!
    Interesting topic.  Judy

    
    are you saying that male oriented porn is all about conquest?
    
    what a generalization, and false to boot..

    Hmm... After Madonna's latest hit record "Hanky Spanky", iI would say
    that even Womens porn would have it's "dark" side...
    
    REK

    see also:
    
    Womannotes-V2
    993 - feminist porn - an oxymoron?
    
    -Jody
    

    
    I'd say part of it would come out looking like Nancy Friday's two
    books, "My Secret Garden" and "Forbidden Flowers".
    
    It would be more suggestive than explicit, more erotic than graphic.
    
    -Jody

    re: .0 (Dorian)
    
    � . . .what would T.V  commercials be like? 
    
    I suspect the Soloflex (tm) ad would run a lot more often.
    
    Steve

    
    madonna's new song is "hanky panky" and why do so many people find
     fault with her. she says what she feels and does what she wants and
    if more people were as honest as that we wouldn't have as much violence
    
    her new song deals with bondage and spankings. which in her early
    days she made porno films dealing with these subject. but with her
    money now it is for us to enjoy or just change the chanel.
    
    there are alot of kinky people in this world and i'm sure they are
    not all men
    

    I'd say the men would be far more interesting looking [I mean far more
    varied] -- there'd be a variety of colors and ages and wrinkles and 
    smoothness.
    
    	Anyone for Billy Dee Williams?  Ian Carmichael?  Willy Nelson?
    
    	[in the sack, of course!]
    
    Briana

    re .0, for one thing *I'd* be a lot more frustrated than I already
    am!!!!  (If I had to be assaulted, on a constant basis, with photo 
    spreads of gorgeous young men that I couldn't have in real life
    I don't know what I'd do!)  (and I mean real pictures, too, Dorian,
    not those ones from playgirl that look asleep)
    
    But, if we absolutely had to, for starters, I'd like some nice colored
    photos of Matthew Broderick in various stages of undress.  I think
    he's really cute.  Oh, I might take time to read an interview, too.
    :-)
    
    I think it would be interesting, every once in awhile, to bring
    out old nude photos of famous men, that were taken back when they
    were young and needed the money. :-)  Guys like Kevin Costner, Mel
    Gibson, etc.  (that would put them i their place just as they started
    to feel successful!)
    
    Lorna
      

    How about if "Knitting Weekly", (I don't know if it really exists),
    a generally innocuous magazine were to put out an annual pecker-checker
    issue sold right in the checkout line at the supermarket?  I'd put
    Matthew Broderick on the cover, (thanx, Lorna!), wicked smile on that
    adorable face, tugging at his jeans which are open just enough to
    reveal the bulge within.
    
    Then of course we'd have the TV special on the making of the
    pecker-checker issue, then the video, and the guys could do the talk
    show circuit.  Whew - that's just ONE forum!

    re .12, hey, *I'd* subscribe. :-)
    
    Lorna
    

    Auto ads where it's a guy in tight, faded jeans, and a loose, partially
    unbuttoned shirt with the cuffs rolled back, leaning over the open
    driver's side door..........
    
    Alison

    
    do the jeans come with a beer gut hanging over the waistband?
    
    

    How about a soft drink TV ad showing a guy wearing nothing but little
    teensy white bikini briefs and he's on roller skates skating down the 
    street holding a can of <whatever>.
    
    The Channel "Share the Fantasy" ads are already pretty sexy with guys
    swimming up to fully-clothed women.
    
    I'd love to see a picture of a great looking male model on the cover of
    Cosmo (in the traditional Cosmo mostly-open clothing) except he's only
    wearing tuxedo trousers... and you can just barely be certain he's a 
    natural blond.   :^)
    
    One thing for sure, women-oriented erotica would not have "doctor's
    eye" views of the models. 
    

    There is a painting (French? 19th C?) showing a picnic in which the
    three men are all fully clothed in dark suits and the three women are
    gloriously pink and buxom and nude.  It is/was quite a famous painting. 
    I cannot recall the painter.
    
    Anyway, someone else painted the obvious rejoinder. A wonderful piece of
    feminist erotica.  Same scene, same composition.  Except the women are 
    all in lovely dresses and the MEN are gloriously pink and well developed
    and nude.

    in re .17
    
    it is something like "Dejuner (lunch or picknic) in a particular
    park and I am pretty sure it is by Manet...the brain cells are
    going...:-) it has been 26 years since I had art history..
    
    I worked for a couple of months this winter at a bookstore and
    one of my jobs was to straighten the magazines.. so I took a few
    peeks at Playgirl (blush) and at a couple of mags apparently aimed
    at gay men..
    
    and it wasn't erotic to me at all, more embarassing..
    
    To me erotic is subtile, that stuff was more like being hit with
    a hammer..
    
    Bonnie

    	The painting is called "Le d�jeuner sur l'herbe" (literally,
    "lunch on the grass") and is by Manet.  It was originally titled
    "Le Bain" ("the bath"?).  There are two men, fully clothed, one
    woman completely nude and another woman in only her chemise
    emerging from a stream.

    	amy

    thanks Amy
    
    :-)
    
    BJ

    in re the intention of the painting and the response to it at the time
    
    that's pretty close to what the author intended
    
    bj

    
    
    	More on Manet and Dejeuner sur l'Herbe.  Amy was quite correct 
    	in her description.  
    
    	The painting was exibited in the 'Salon des Refuses' a show for
    	artists rejected by the establishment.  The painting was considered
    	indecent and an offense against public morality.  Three of the figures
    	were portaits of living people whom the viewers might chance to see
    	later on the streets of Paris.  The nude woman was modeled after
    	Madmoiselle Victorine Meurand, while the male figures were Manet's 
    	brother and his future broher-in-law.  The violet reactions
    	associated with the painting were agonizingly painful for Manet.  
    
    	This was taken from a book about Manet's works.  
    
    	IMHO  The real masterpiece is 'Olympia' a truly riviting work.
    
    
    							Kelly
    

    re .16, Cosmopolitan...
    
    and he's called "that Cosmo boy" !

    I've seen a book called "Not Just Another Pretty Face", about the
    current hottest male models.  Lots of face shots, examples of their
    modeling works, relaxed shots.  Steam it up a bit (not necessarily with
    genitalia - steamier looks, more interesting poses) and it would 
    suffice nicely ;)
    
    -Jody
    

    
    On the cover of Hard Snore magazine, a nude male splayed and trussed
    atop a hamburger bun, covered with ketchup...

    re .26
    
    Sounds like that shot should definitely be airbrushed to uh, ah,
    "enhance" those parts that need to be enhanced.
    

    I'm amazed, Dorian.  I mean, a *hamburger bun*. . .and *ketchup*!!
    
    What a crude, tasteless display!
    
    Now, on the other hand, a croissant and some Hollandaise sauce. . .
    
    Steve

re: .28

And some crunchy asparagus.
	Mez

    I would like to see Kevin Costner (or others) in a type of "Calgon,
    take me away" commercial.  Can you imagine the bath and all?  Wow!
    
    Anyone have any feedback about the new mens underwear commercial??  I
    think its Fruit of the Loom???  The one with various shots from
    behind...
    
    Judy

    RE: .28 .29
    
    Calm down now folks.  You're confusing the pleasures of the table with
    the pleasures of the boudoir. Unless you mean you...!!!! oh no!!!
    NOT hollandaise on the sheets -- again!!
    
    Tender asparagus shoots, ever so lightly steamed, still moist, a slight
    sheen of butter on their looooong stalks.
    
    Who said it had to include humans???
    
       ;^)   Margaret

    e.g.,
    
    "Asparagus is better than cucumbers because..."
    
    (the rest is left as an exercise for the reader, or chef, or
    whoever... :-)

    re:.29
    
    	� And some crunchy asparagus. �
    
    Only if you leave the bones in.
    
    --- jerry

    Hmmm are these the SAME women that find the sopposed "Objectification"
    of women within the same sort of discussions amungst males?
    
    Are these the same women that find it somewhat repulsive that males
    might even enjoy looking at women "this particular way"?
    
    nawwwwwwwww cant be...
    
    :-)

What about the more violent stuff? Would Slayboy Magazine have a cover
showing a nude, inverted male half-disappeared into a meatgrinder,
airbrushed legs waving helplessly? Or a nude male poured into a bottle? 

Would a women's shoe store feature in its window display, among the pumps
and sandals, a large spike heel bearing down on a reclining (dead?) male
mannequin's face? 

Would the Beautiful Dead Man be a common motif in advertising? 

Just fantasizing  %-} ,

Dorian

Glancing thorough a random Speigal-like catalog, I suddenly noticed all the
ornaments shaped like people (two guesses on the gender). In the imagined
society, men would appear draped in various costumes (foreign and historical)
as statuettes, on mirrors, supporting tables, and so on.
	Mez

    Back to Manet, the same group that found his picture obscene voted
    Cabanel's "Birth of Venus" the high honors picture at the real salon.
    This showed a full frontal nude woman floating on the sea with cerubs
    around her. I think this occured in the same year but I'm not sure.

    As for what I'd *like*  - I go more for erotic descriptions of love
    making than for pictures, but I suppose I'd be able to bear seeing them
    little naked critters on the magazine covers. ;*}

    On the lighter side - National Enquirer would have a front page article
    about a man who had a penis enlargement and siamease twins that shared
    a penis and a lover.

    And the mr universe contest would have a "tights and erection" section
    where the contestents paraded in front of the audience showing off
    their "assests". liesl

    As it happens, this evening I switched on Da Toob and the cable
    box was set for VH-1 (a music video channel). The video that
    was on at the moment was for Michelle Shocked's "On the Greener
    Side", and what should it show (at least for the last minute or
    so) but shots of Michelle singing and playing the guitar, intercut
    with shots of male hunks (body-builder types) in nothing but very
    small swimming briefs (green, of course).
    
    The first thing I thought of upon seeing it was this topic! :-)
    
    (And no, it didn't make me uncomfortable. In fact, I immediately
    started to laugh.)
    
    --- jerry

    Has anyone watched the "Anyone Here for Love?" number in "Gentlemen
    Prefer Blondes" recently?  (Fully-clothed Rosalind Russell cavorting
    lasciviously amongst the oiled bods of the male U. S. Olympic Team.)
    
    Anyway, I'm not uncomfortable...  I never felt "judged" or
    "objectified" when a loved one watched hard core - maybe a little bored
    sometimes, since tastes differ. 
    
    Ray

    
    Does anyone have any ideas about why a woman's version of porn would
    be, in general, milder and less graphic than a man's version?  I'm sure
    many women would enjoy porn at a similar level to what men do but if
    you think about the 'Pecker-Checker issue if Knitting Weekly',  I
    wonder if that would have the same kind of appeal that SI does.  And
    would all those men displaying their 'jewels' to the world, make men
    feel insecure?  And would men even get their genetilia enlarged?
    
    Rachael
    

>And would men even get their genetilia enlarged?

If genital elargement were possible, men would *already* be doing it.
ALl the time there are letters to sex columnists, Dr. Ruth and the
like, about "How can I make my penis bigger?"  The sex magazines offer
a variety of "extenders" and they sell well.  Somehow I don't think
men would suddenly become even *more* obsessed with their size if
women were "in control" cuz they (as a group, not any one in particular)
are already pretty obsessed with it.

[Genital enlargement is *not* possible.]

D!

    re .46, I thought how they use it is supposed to be more important
    than either wideth or length!
    
    At least that's what men have always told *me*!
    
    Lorna
    

    I think the reason most men don't feel uncomfortable when they're
    wives and girlfriends oogle cute men on TV, in movies, or magazines,
    is because there are so few really cute men out here in "real life"
    and so many women "want a man", that men know that sooner or later
    we'll settle for one of the ordinary ones no matter who we oogle.
     (we can't all have Tom Cruise or Kevin Costner, right?)  (damn!)
     But, there are so many women who do their best to try to look
    attractive that plain women know that if their husband or boyfriend
    really wants to he probably could find somebody prettier and/or
    younger than them.  (course she might not be as beautiful on the
    *inside* and we all know that counts most with the average man,
    right?)  
    
    Lorna
    

    re:.48
    
    Actually, I think the reason we men (of *course* I can speak for
    all men :-)) don't feel uncomfortable is because we don't have
    this thrown in our face day after day, week after week.
    
    --- jerry

    re:43 Jerry
    
    >The video that
    >was on at the moment was for Michelle Shocked's "On the Greener
    >Side", and what should it show (at least for the last minute or
    >so) but shots of Michelle singing and playing the guitar, intercut
    >with shots of male hunks (body-builder types) in nothing but very
    >small swimming briefs (green, of course). 
               
    I saw an interview with Michelle, in which she stated that she did
    the video to get back at Robert Palmer for objectifying women in
    his "Simply Irresistable" video and commercial for a soft drink,
    and his "Addicted To Love" video.
    
    -roger
    
                       

    re:.50
    
    Good for her. I loathe those Palmer videos, too.
    
    --- jerry

    I accidentally got wrongly labeled in some catalog-mailing-list gender
    file somehow (I suppose "Jody" can be either), and I got this catalog
    called "Undergear", showing undertogs for men.  All I can say is WOW.  
    
    -Jody

    Are you sure you were mislabelled?
    
    Maybe women would be interested in buying sexy underwear for their
    SO's?
    
    Wouldn't surprise me.
    
    Lisa

    RE: .52
    
    Yo, Jody, you putting the catalog on any kindo .dis list?
    
    Some WOW would warm the heart of this poor tech writer.  :^)
    
       :^)   :^)  Margaret

    Hey, Jody - maybe you could bring it to the next party!!!!  Please!!!!
    
    Linda  8-}

    now Linda, now Linda! calm down!
    
    :-)
    
    Bonnie

    re:.52
    
    I take it, Jody, that you're *not* going to complain to the US
    Postal Service? :-)
    
    --- jerry

    Well the way I knew they mislabeled me was it ws sent to "Mr. Jody
    Bobbitt"  (kind of a giveaway there).
    
    I'll bring it to the party on the 29th, but I want NO DROOLMARKS on it
    when I take it home.  Okay ;)?
    
    -Jody
    

    Jody,
    
    RE: .52, .58
    
    Despite the error in your sexual membership they are valid in who
    gets sent the catalogue.  Who buys the men sexy undies that they them
    selves would never buy?  Men buy the teddys and other not so likely
    to be worn lingerie, why not the reverse?  I presume that catalogue
    includes sexy/revealing but uncomfortable for daily wear items as well. 
    
    A-

    I dunno...the only time I ever bought anything remotely underthing wise
    for a guy he laughed, and swore he'd never wear it!
    
    As for erotica, I also add my vote for the poetry/art in Boris and
    Doris (yes they're married, yes those are actually their names) Vallejo
    (Boris does fantasy/SF artwork)'s book "Mirage".
    
    -Jody
    

    Having a hyphenated name can be fun.  I've gotten some pretty
    provocative stuff in the mail addressed to:
    
    Mr. & Mrs. Richard Jones and Christie
                             ===
    
    Richard [Jones-Christie]

In the last couple of months, I've met with a couple of new interesting
examples of gay men being used as erotic heroes by women. Alas, only one
really counts as porn, though.

Ellen Kushner's first novel, "Swordspoint" (TOR Fantasy, 1987), is an
"adult fairy tale" of dehwing-do and conspiracy set in a fictional
Restoration-like (minus royalty) society. Kushner solves the problem of
which dashing young man her genteel heroine will choose, the healthy
courageous commoner who lives (ha HA!) by his sword or the dark brooding
distinctly unhealthy noble who courts death (ho HO!) by his wits, by
not having a heroine at all. Instead, in an instructive attempt to get to
the good stuff, her two romantic heroes are in love with each other.

Although considerably more concerned with adventure and convoluted plots
than with sex, there's no denying that the heat generated by the
relationship holds the book together. Self-destructive Alec and sensibly
destructive Richard are a match made in -- well, OK, probably not made
there, but certainly recognizable to those of us on Earth. Highly
recommended.

For the last couple of years, Donna Barr has been bringing out a comic
book called "The Desert Peach", a light-hearted look at a wacky lovable
WWII German unit in North Africa with a stereotypically gay commanding
officer. Sound promising? I didn't think so either, but the dang thing's
addictive.

Our hero (the hitherto-unknown brother of Rommel, the "Desert Fox") is a
gorgeous blend of Gibson man and Gibson woman, who rules his outfit with a
peach-ribboned ("_Peach_, not _pink_. Pink is such a _tacky_ color.")
riding crop and a mix of goodheartedness, courage, and feminine wiles.
Beautifully drawn and lettered, the stories come across as "Rat Patrol" or
"Hogan's Heroes" directed by Ernst Lubitsch. 

Because of its gay hero, the comic book is usually stuck in the
underground section, although it's barely R-rated, going to silly lengths
to preserve the Peach's privacy (or genitalia, anyway) particularly in
the surfing issue (in which all the characters are nude for 3/4s of the
story and seagulls fly strategically low and close to the reader).

But in the 16th issue of the anthology series "Wimmens Comix",
provocatively titled "MEN" and like most issues Just Too Cool For Words,
Barr tosses us into the thick (ahem) of a tryst between the Peach and his
rugged bad-boy fiance, Herr Rosen Kavalier. Very explicit Art Deco funny
erotica at its finest (not that there's much of it around).

(For more odd beefcake, you might try to find Barr's "Stinz" stories, some
of which have been collected into a book called "Horsebrush", about a
hunky lunky very traditional family-man centaur (!) in a German village at
the turn of the century. Perfect for anyone who ever regretted having to
choose between horses and men...)

Ray
    

    Re .62: A Lubitsch version of "Rat Patrol" - perfect description! 
    
    I agree about Barr's Peach story in 'Wimmens Comix', too; very funny,
    very steamy, and heartily recommended. She has a knack for scripting
    characters who are likeable despite any number of all-too-human flaws;
    without that likeability, I don't think I'd have found the story either
    interesting or sexy, but with it, WOW!
    
    -b

    speaking of commix...
    
    is anybody familiar with the Omaha series?  good stuff!
    
    \D/

I remember Omaha back when she was just a short segment is (yes, I'm
serious, non-comix-folx) "Bizarre Sex".  I still have issue #1 lying
around somewhere.

A little "cute" for my tastes, but it's fun.
Of course, that goes for Desert Peach, too.

D!

    re:.65
    
    OMAHA has changed quite a bit from its BIZARRE SEX days, mostly
    via the introduction of writer/artist Reed Waller's SO -- and
    All Around Neat Person -- Kate Worley as the new writer. She's
    added a great deal of depth to the characters.
    
    But if you want to know what the definition of "weird" is...
    
    Kate's other major regular writing stint, aside from OMAHA was
    for Disney's ROGER RABBIT comic. But that was just for the money
    ("I've become a whore for Disney," she'd say). OMAHA is for fun.
    
    --- jerry