Conference turris::womannotes-v3

    Since there are several male replies in note 154. I have switched
    the titles on the two notes.

    Please keep discussion of the appropriateness of FWO notes in
    the processing topic.

    I would request that, since FWO is by courtesy only that any
    out of place replies be simply ignored in the FWO string
    and replied to in the FGD string.

    Thank you

    Bonnie J
    =wn= comod

    So anyway, as we were saying...
    
    I don't see why an EEO committee isn't in on all hiring decisions,
    in on screening the resumes, in on interviewing the candidates and in
    on selecting the candidate for an offer.  Managers have proven that
    they simply can't be trusted to hire the best candidate for the job.
    I don't understand why "the company" doesn't consider itself to have a
    vested enough interest in insuring that the best candidate is always
    hired.  Maybe they should be out of the loop entirely and simply given
    new employees as the need arises?

    Recognition and confrontation are essential.  Once we have recogonized
    a situation in which sexism is at work, we must be willing to confront
    the perpetrator(s).  There are many forms of confrontation, and it does
    not necessarily need to be antagonistic or hostile; nor does it
    necessarily NOT have to be.  The circumstance and our best judgement
    need to dictate our actions.
    
    This is not easy, and when we do the "what do I have to lose vs. what
    do I have to gain" test, it's even more difficult.  What may be "best"
    for our individual career paths and long-term success in the company is
    not necessarily the thing that will advance the cause of equal
    treatment.
    
    And it occurred to me...maybe we should concentrate less on making sure
    WE get what THEY have and concentrate more on making sure THEY get what
    WE have...
    
    annie

    Annie, what do you mean by concentrating less on making sure we have
    what they have and instead make sure they have what we have?
    
    Karen

    Probably a poor attempt at humor on a subject that isn't at all funny. 
    Try as I might I can't seem to articulate what I meant, so I withdraw
    the comment.  Thanks for making me think about it!

    annie, I think you made an interesting point!
    
    I think that we tend to look at the "things" men have (money, power,
    position) and want them.  That's natural.  We should also have them, as
    easily as they do.  (To clarify: it is not EASY for men to get money,
    power, position, but "based on results" it is EASIER for men than for
    women.)
    
    I think that it's also important for men to see the "attitudes" women
    have (teamwork, compromise, listening, sharing) and want them.
    
    Our society would be the better for changing the emphasis on what
    "success" is in life and at work.
    
    Pam

re: .0

Mentor. 
	Mez

    re: .13
    Mentoring is probably crucial...I have finally, after years of trying,
    found a real mentor in my present manager.  He is possibly the only
    male manager I've encountered in DEC who is truly *person* oriented
    rather than male/female oriented.  He is also the most visionary
    person I've had an opportunity to work with during my 20 year working
    life.
    
    Our office is relatively small (actually, very small compared to some
    DEC offices with somewhere around 50 employees).  It has been very
    recently that the female employees have started to become solidly
    supportive of one another, cross-functionaly and regardless of wage
    class.  Had it not been for the support and sound advice of one of my
    female colleagues very recently, I would have made a very
    counterproductive move career wise based on frustration, hostility and
    anger rather than sound reasoning.
    
    Finding successful female role models has not been so easy, but because
    we now have unity and direction, I'm sure it's possible.

>    Finding successful female role models has not been so easy, but because
>    we now have unity and direction, I'm sure it's possible.

Fer sure! As an engineer, finding women at principal and above is tough, and
finding them in my organization or specialty is even tougher. I asked my CC mgr
and personnel person how many other women are at or above my level (if they
couldn't name names, at least I could ask people til I found the right number
:-). I think asking questions like this is also a good way to raise
conciousness (I believe in my group's desire to do the right thing; they just
don't always notice the disparities that make my life harder).
	Mez